We were 3-4 when Watson was hurt...

[ColeThornton]

And the three teams we had beaten were Cincinnati, Tennessee and Cleveland who collectively are 9-18. So once again, even with a great QB the only thing Bill O'Brien's Texan's could do was take out the trash just like Bill O'Brien's Texan's have always done. Before you point out we were without a couple of key players on defense, I would point out we were better with Watson even without those players, yet the results were the same.

Unfortunately, from what I'm hearing in the local sports media we may have lost more with the loss of Watson than just this season. It sounds like his injury has given O'Brien a free pass and nothing he can do going forward will threaten his job. So the same guy who had a losing record with Watson for seven games this year will be back next year so we can do it all over again.

And remember this is the quarterback whisperer. The guy who told us we should be proud of Mallet and Hoyer, the guy who wasted an entire preseason getting Savage ready because he thought he was better than Watson. I get so tired of seeing our team held back by the front office and coaching.

 

[NastyNate]

The secondary has been bad and will continue to be so. However, with Watson starting we lost a nail biter in NE, a close game to KC, and a nail biter to Seattle. With Savage at the helm we lose at home only putting up 7 points via the offense against the worst secondary in the league, and put up 7 points on offense when our defense was actually holding it to a close game. And Savage gave them the ball back 3 times. Your argument is crap.

 

[Thorn]

Right now, the Texans are a crap team no matter how you describe it or what part you lay the blame on. We'll be better next year. Before the injuries start again and we're back to being crap. I wanted to see the Texans win a Super Bowl and mankind find proof of life elsewhere before I die. I figure I'm just going to have to settle on the Astros and keep watching NASA missions.

 

[ColeThornton]

The secondary has been bad and will continue to be so. However, with Watson starting we lost a nail biter in NE, a close game to KC, and a nail biter to Seattle. With Savage at the helm we lose at home only putting up 7 points via the offense against the worst secondary in the league, and put up 7 points on offense when our defense was actually holding it to a close game. And Savage gave them the ball back 3 times. Your argument is crap.

The bottom line is once again we couldn't beat the good teams and the only teams we could beat were 9-18, and that was with finally a good QB. The only reason O'Brien has done anything in the NFL is because he's coached in the AFC South. If he had been in a good division he wouldn't have lasted this long. I'm glad your excited about losing close games to good teams... I'm not.

 

[texanhead08]

If we lose out which is not out of the question at this point do they bring Obrien back as a lame duck with one year left on his contract?

 

[ColeThornton]

If we lose out which is not out of the question at this point do they bring Obrien back as a lame duck with one year left on his contract?

That was the point of my post, I think Watson getting injured has helped O'Brien keep his job. Even though he started Savage over him and had a losing record with him, the Texans now have yet another excuse for O'Brien... and Smith for that matter.

 

[texanhead08]

That was the point of my post, I think Watson getting injured has helped O'Brien keep his job. Even though he started Savage over him and had a losing record with him, the Texans now have yet another excuse for O'Brien... and Smith for that matter.

Smith is invincible so he will never get fired, but Obrien has the excuse of the injuries to the main guys or will he say **** it and resign.

 

[Belichick Fan]

That was the point of my post, I think Watson getting injured has helped O'Brien keep his job. Even though he started Savage over him and had a losing record with him, the Texans now have yet another excuse for O'Brien... and Smith for that matter.

I would say that Watson's amazing play as a rookie is what saved his job. OB should get some credit for adjusting the scheme based on Watson's skill-set. There is no guarantee that Watson would have put up numbers that amazing without OB's system. Consider how much worse Matt Ryan looks when he got a new OC.

I agree that OB has shown some weaknesses in his game management. How much better or worse do you think he is relative to the average NFL coach? I see many good coaches making similar mistakes.

 

[ColeThornton]

How much better or worse do you think he is relative to the average NFL coach? I see many good coaches making similar mistakes.

He is a 9-7 coach in the AFC South, that makes him a 5-11 coach in the best division a 6-10 coach in a good division and 7-9 coach in an average division. He's kept his job because the AFC South has been "historically" weak and now ironically injuries are the best thing that could have happened as far as his keeping his job. The path they were on(3-4 and losing to Jv at home), this could have been the year he couldn't even win the AFC South...

 

[JB]

O'Boy, yet another thread to let us know the Texans suck

 

[Belichick Fan]

He is a 9-7 coach in the AFC South, that makes him a 5-11 coach in the best division a 6-10 coach in a good division and 7-9 coach in an average division. He's kept his job because the AFC South has been "historically" weak and now ironically injuries are the best thing that could have happened as far as his keeping his job. The path they were on(3-4 and losing to Jv at home), this could have been the year he couldn't even win the AFC South...

I mean in terms of game management decisions. Is he that much worse at things like clock management, risk assessment, game planning, etc? I used to think he was a above average coach on all that stuff, and I have cooled off on him. But I don't think he is totally terrible relative to the field.

There can be a ton of factors for 3-4. I was just trying to isolate one set of them.

 

[JB]

He is a 9-7 coach in the AFC South, that makes him a 5-11 coach in the best division a 6-10 coach in a good division and 7-9 coach in an average division. He's kept his job because the AFC South has been "historically" weak and now ironically injuries are the best thing that could have happened as far as his keeping his job. The path they were on(3-4 and losing to Jv at home), this could have been the year he couldn't even win the AFC South...

can you show that math?

 

[ColeThornton]

I mean in terms of game management decisions. Is he that much worse at things like clock management, risk assessment, game planning, etc? I used to think he was a above average coach on all that stuff, and I have cooled off on him. But I don't think he is totally terrible relative to the field.

There can be a ton of factors for 3-4. I was just trying to isolate one set of them.

So much of coaching can be subjective, gray area etc... Clock management is black and white, it's a concise part of coaching that should completely be the responsibility of the head coach. I think O'Brien has been horrible in this area, the most recent example was the end of the Colt's game, which may have cost his team the game. It certainly took away more chances to win it.

 

[Showtime100]

The Texans need baseball minds. Maybe then they'll have a clue.

 

[Belichick Fan]

So much of coaching can be subjective, gray area etc... Clock management is black and white, it's a concise part of coaching that should completely be the responsibility of the head coach. I think O'Brien has been horrible in this area, the most recent example was the end of the Colt's game, which may have cost his team the game. It certainly took away more chances to win it.

I agree he has been making mistakes, and I have been disappointed with him. I am asking you if he is making mistakes at a higher rate than the average NFL coach. I am not sure he is.

Even a very good coach such as Andy Reid is well know for his bad clock management. Pete Carol totally botched his game vs. the Skins. Todd Bowles has often punted in situations where the only reasonable chance to win is to go for it on 4th. Jason Garrett blew his game vs. Green Bay. NFL coaches generally make the type of mistakes you are complaining about.

 

[ColeThornton]

I agree he has been making mistakes, and I have been disappointed with him. I am asking you if he is making mistakes at a higher rate than the average NFL coach. I am not sure he is.

Even a very good coach such as Andy Reid is well know for his bad clock management. Pete Carol totally botched his game vs. the Skins. Todd Bowles has often punted in situations where the only reasonable chance to win is to go for it on 4th. Jason Garrett blew his game vs. Green Bay. NFL coaches generally make the type of mistakes you are complaining about.

I don't believe my posts about O'Brien was based on "particular" mistakes. I pointed out clock management as per your request and I do think he is well below average in this regard. I also think he is a poor evaluator of talent, based on the players we have lost and the fact that as I mentioned he went with Savage to start this season instead of Watson. How in the world could he have spent an off season with these guys and not know which one was better. It's not like it was even close, Watson came in and was "immediately" better even without all the preparation Savage had. But the bottom line for any head coach is who you can beat and who you can't. The best win O'Brien has had was against the Cincinnati Bengals at home... the Bengals. Now you keep asking about the "average NFL coach". I'm not saying he's the worse coach in the league, but if the goal is "average" he may be your guy.

 

[ColeThornton]

can you show that math?

I'll try. At 3-4 they won 42.8% of their games, on that path that would be 6.8 wins for the season. Round it up to 7 wins and the last time the AFC South was won at 7-9 was.... never.

 

[xtruroyaltyx]

I’d still let OB go after this year. I’m just not a fan of his work.

 

[Showtime100]

I'll try. At 3-4 they won 42.8% of their games, on that path that would be 6.8 wins for the season. Round it up to 7 wins and the last time the AFC South was won at 7-9 was.... never.

Don't bother. He just called me a troll and he knows better. Phuk him.

 

[Belichick Fan]

I'll try. At 3-4 they won 42.8% of their games, on that path that would be 6.8 wins for the season. Round it up to 7 wins and the last time the AFC South was won at 7-9 was.... never.

If you are trying to project what happens if Watson does not go down, I think it is better to do a game by game estimate. The teams you folks lost in your first 4 were quality teams.

 

[ColeThornton]

If you are trying to project what happens if Watson does not go down, I think it is better to do a game by game estimate. The teams you folks lost in your first 4 were quality teams.

That's been the problem for the O'Brien era, they never seem to be able to beat a really good team, while doing just enough in the AFC South to keep their jobs. O'Brien has a losing record outside the AFC South for all the other teams they've played good and bad.

 

[Texansphan]

O'Boy, yet another thread to let us know the Texans suck

Yep - and another doom and gloomer tells us the sky is falling again.

 

[Texansphan]

That's been the problem for the O'Brien era, they never seem to be able to beat a really good team, while doing just enough in the AFC South to keep their jobs. O'Brien has a losing record outside the AFC South for all the other teams they've played good and bad.

Take one look at the Patriots and what do you see?
Stability.
They have a first rate coach/QB combo that have been around together for what - 14 -15 seasons now?
They have had the luxury of building a team around Brady including the coaches and for this you need stability.
You don't get that constantly chopping and changing.
I bet if you went back over the first few years of the Patriots dynasty you would find plenty of mistakes and missteps along the way but now you see a juggernaut that just keeps on rolling.
The fact that Brady has managed to stay healthy has also been a key factor in their success and that comes from a great Oline and coaching. They also have stability there too.
O'Brien may not be the best coach in the NFL, but he is far from being the worst and winning the first three seasons is a great start in my books.
This year has been particularly bad for Texans on the injury front. Yes, lots of other teams have key injuries too but how many of those lost their QB and their best defender?
Watson likes O'Brien and vice versa - lets give it more than a handful of games before we start throwing out babies with the bathwater again. And again.
And again.
Building dynastic juggernauts takes time.
Just like building Rome.

 

[bigmck]

If we lose out which is not out of the question at this point do they bring Obrien back as a lame duck with one year left on his contract?

Could you direct me to the Fire O'Brien Thread?

 

[Thorn]

Could you direct me to the Fire O'Brien Thread?

Two doors down to your left, right past the bathroom and the NFL Draft vending machine. And you're out of quarters and need to pee.

 

[welsh texan]

I posted in the off-season that we were more in rebuild mode now than at any point during OBs tenure. I think he's been given the green light to hit reset on his tenure here and that he's had that free pass because they were never able to give him a QB previously.

I also doubt the Texans org has any intention of giving him a lame duck year either. I think he gets a 1 year extension this offseason and they take their lumps next season also.

I don't see how they are going to address the OL in that timeframe however. With no high picks, desperate need at both tackle positions and at least 1 guard position. And a weak FA class to too it off.

They need get themselves a great TE and invest heavily on D to beat the shortfall. Hope Davenport improves dramatically.

It's a huge number of ifs they are relying on to be relevant next season even. Even when we have our 1st and 2nd rounders in 19 it typically takes time to develop OL, especially OT.

We're literally going to eat up that window to give DW an Oline before his high $ contract starts to hit and end up like the Colts with Luck if they don't get a miracle.

Texans are in a right pickle atm.

 

[TxnsJuggernaut]

He is a 9-7 coach in the AFC South, that makes him a 5-11 coach in the best division a 6-10 coach in a good division and 7-9 coach in an average division.

As of right now the Titans and Jags are tied at the top of our division and are looking like anything but weak teams. Both teams have 2-1 division records and winning records in the conference as a whole. The Titans are 1-0 against NFC teams. I do not think the weak AFC South argument holds much weight at this point in the season. Maybe the division will turn out bad but I doubt it. I would not be surprised if both the Titans and the Jags finish with records better than the 9-7 that won the division for us the last two seasons.

If the Jags and Titans keep winning that is all the more reasons to keep BO'b. At one point I was all for getting rid of Bill the Qb whisperer Obrien if things fell apart but I think he has done a solid job of coaching this season. The injuries are a valid excuse and the strengthening of the division will also be a valid reason for him to keep his job another season. Not only that but BO'b found a new play toy that he proved to be effective with in our wonder Kid rookie Qb. He deserves a chance to see how a full season of using a healthy DW will work out.

I am already looking forward to next season.

 

[banned1976]

I agree he has been making mistakes, and I have been disappointed with him. I am asking you if he is making mistakes at a higher rate than the average NFL coach. I am not sure he is.

Even a very good coach such as Andy Reid is well know for his bad clock management. Pete Carol totally botched his game vs. the Skins. Todd Bowles has often punted in situations where the only reasonable chance to win is to go for it on 4th. Jason Garrett blew his game vs. Green Bay. NFL coaches generally make the type of mistakes you are complaining about.

I was on the O'Brien bandwagon up until this year. I don't think he makes mistakes at a higher rate than other head coaches. But some of the mistakes he makes has me and a lot of people thinking what the hell is he doing? Last week when the Colts had the ball during the last two minutes of the half, they with good field position he called 2 consecutive time outs. He did that again yesterday and the Rams scored a field goal. It makes no sense at all. He's giving the opponents free time outs.

Anyway, the bottom line is with O'Brien the Texans are mediocre or bad. The Team has come out way too flat at times. 1st game this year, for example. That I feel is coaching.

 

[Belichick Fan]

I was on the O'Brien bandwagon up until this year. I don't think he makes mistakes at a higher rate than other head coaches. But some of the mistakes he makes has me and a lot of people thinking what the hell is he doing? Last week when the Colts had the ball during the last two minutes of the half, they with good field position he called 2 consecutive time outs. He did that again yesterday and the Rams scored a field goal. It makes no sense at all. He's giving the opponents free time outs.

Anyway, the bottom line is with O'Brien the Texans are mediocre or bad. The Team has come out way too flat at times. 1st game this year, for example. That I feel is coaching.

I agree with all of that. I just think O'Brien's offensive system has a track record for success in NE. Watson was putting up insane numbers before he went down. The Texans defense has been quite good up until this year. If you combine the Texans defense of past years with Watson you get a top 3 AFC team. O'Brien just has not been able to put it all together, and injuries are part of it.

The bigger problem IMO is that the Texans defense might be on the decline more generally. They might have to hit on some defensive draft picks, cheap free agents, UDFAs to keep both sides of the ball strong.

 

[Speedy]

I posted in the off-season that we were more in rebuild mode now than at any point during OBs tenure

Wouldn't being in rebuild mode require actual rebuilding? Other than the Browns Clevelanding it up and allowing us to grab Watson, I don't see where any rebuilding has taken place.

 

[Hervoyel]

If one looks at 2013 like the aberration it was then it becomes clear that what they did (and what in our frustration many of us encouraged the Texans to do, myself included) was throw the baby out with the bathwater by doing a coaching purge that didn't need to happen and rebuilding a team that still had 3-4 years left.

It's also apparent that O'Brien's so-called success (9-7 three years in a row) was built in a bad division on the remains of Gary Kubiak's offense and Romeo Crennel's defense (which mostly just featured guys who had played very well for Wade Phillips).

Bill O'Brien was a mistake. If I thought for a second that the Houston Texans listened to what any of us said and acted on those statements I'd feel even worse about wanting him here but instead I pretty much have to concede that I was wrong, he is just another Bill Belichick "minion" with nothing special at all about himself. Just another guy that Tom Brady made look smart who is really lost when it comes to the big decisions and trying to hold together the whole enchilada. He's not up to it. He's hopelessly lost and we are, like so many other teams in the league wandering around in the desert looking for our next head coach.

This team has gotten worse every year he's been here. Maybe not in wins and losses but on the field it's been a steady decline. He's done. Guys like Savage and Sua'Filo should seal his fate. Not so much because we missed on them but because he had them in front of him for years and he still thought/thinks they're pieces of the puzzle instead of draft busts and never-were's. He can't tell the difference. That he was relying on Savage to keep the seat warm after watching him for three years is telling. I can accept that he had no idea that Watson would be as special as he is. He wouldn't be the only one who didn't see that coming but he might be the only guy in the world who after having three seasons to evaluate Tom Savage still chose not to start preparing his first round rookie to start and instead went with "Tom's got this". That he seemed so sure convinced me that Savage was going to show us something we didn't expect this year. That it blew up in his face like an ACME dynamite kit told us all we needed to know about him as a QB whisperer.

He doesn't know what he's looking at or what he's doing.

Case Keenum has the Vikings at 7-2 and just threw 4 TD passes. Would have been nice to have that guy backing up Watson wouldn't it? We had him more than once under O'Brien's watch but he was always sent packing while we held on to Savage each time. Now we see that Savage is no more the guy to run O'Brien's imaginary system that changes with each person thrown into it than any of the countless other bodies he's plugged in and then discarded since arriving here. All O'Brien has done is waste the final years of Andre Johnson's career, the final years of Arian Foster's career, and some of the best years of J.J. Watt's career for near .500 records and post-season embarrassment.

 

[TheKDog]

If one looks at 2013 like the aberration it was then it becomes clear that what they did (and what in our frustration many of us encouraged the Texans to do, myself included) was throw the baby out with the bathwater by doing a coaching purge that didn't need to happen and rebuilding a team that still had 3-4 years left.

It's also apparent that O'Brien's so-called success (9-7 three years in a row) was built in a bad division on the remains of Gary Kubiak's offense and Romeo Crennel's defense (which mostly just featured guys who had played very well for Wade Phillips).

Bill O'Brien was a mistake.

Exactly.

And OBrien is as responsible as Rick on the horrible personnel decisions. They work together. He isn't "given" anything, he is choosing with Rick who is on this roster.

Sad thing is I don't have any faith the organization will make the correct diagnosis

 

[TexansSeminole]

You can talk about firing Bill all you want but until we have a GM that can build a full team, it doesn’t matter who coaches it. It’s always some position group that is downright poor. Every year.

When guards and tackles are getting tossed around by the defense on almost every play, it’s going to be very difficult to get anything done on offense. You add the injuries and there is no magic button a coach can press. I’m not sure what most of y’all expect.

I’m sure if any change is made it will be to replace BoB and not Rick Smith, then we will be back here in 3 years talking about firing that guy.

 

[Scooter]

You can talk about firing Bill all you want but until we have a GM that can build a full team, it doesn’t matter who coaches it. It’s always some position group that is downright poor. Every year.

When guards and tackles are getting tossed around by the defense on almost every play, it’s going to be very difficult to get anything done on offense. You add the injuries and there is no magic button a coach can press. I’m not sure what most of y’all expect.

I’m sure if any change is made it will be to replace BoB and not Rick Smith, then we will be back here in 3 years talking about firing that guy.

Coaching absolutely matters. His job is more than drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard and calling time outs - both of which I think O'Brien isn't good at. Job 1 is to teach and improve the players and that certainly isn't happening. It's not just a lack of talent, players are actually getting worse under O'Brien. Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard, and O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches.

You can talk about Smith all you want, but until you have a coaching staff to improve and utilize players to be their best, it doesn't matter who the GM is.

 

[Jadmakaveli]

R-E-L-A-X

We are getting this ring next year and all of this will be forgotten.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[welsh texan]

Wouldn't being in rebuild mode require actual rebuilding? Other than the Browns Clevelanding it up and allowing us to grab Watson, I don't see where any rebuilding has taken place.

They cleared a **** ton of cap room to go after a QB in FA with the intention of retooling the OL high in the draft. The fact that the screwed their plan up led to Watson being the next best option (a lucky turn of events) but meant they had to give up further picks and leading them to the current situation with the OL of having scrubs at both starting Tackle spots, obviously DB issues made this worse.

Yes, I'm inferring a lot of intention here but I don't see how they don't keep/cut Os and eat the cap hit this season otherwise. As things panned out they should have eaten that cap hit themselves this season rather than move the dead money off their books and they'd have known that had the plan been anything other than Romo.

So Yeah, I do believe they were in rebuild mode going for a stop gap QB and developing high pick OL and I agree they didn't manage to do That, although in totally screwing the rebuild they did land a QB who will carry the franchise for years.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Coaching absolutely matters. His job is more than drawing X's and O's on a chalkboard and calling time outs - both of which I think O'Brien isn't good at. Job 1 is to teach and improve the players and that certainly isn't happening. It's not just a lack of talent, players are actually getting worse under O'Brien. Our position coaches aren't up to the necessary standard, and O'Brien has effectively destroyed our veteran presence on offense that can aid those coaches.

You can talk about Smith all you want, but until you have a coaching staff to improve and utilize players to be their best, it doesn't matter who the GM is.

Who is getting worse? Name me someone who wasn’t already bad.

Coaching does matter, but when you have the offensive line getting pushed around like they have been, it’s very difficult. Same thing with the QB.

Look, Watson had 3 things going for him that really masked the talent issue on the OL. His escapability, the fact that there isn’t enough film on him to learn his tendencies to defend him well, and that he was playing at an extremely high level, probably even for him. The last point rings true because if that’s his normal level of play in the NFL, he will be statistically the best QB to ever play the game.

Just watch Filo out there. It would be very surprising to me if you could find an offensive lineman in the entire league that played that poorly yesterday. Maybe Giocomini or however you spell it is up there, but he is also a Texan. The Rams were either on top of Savage, or with a hand directly in his line of sight, or both on the majority of his passes. That’s very difficult to overcome.

Even when Watson was playing, the defense was getting lit up and you can see that the issue is talent. The safeties are continuously blowing coverages and we are consistently playing street FAs at corner. The injuries to Watt and Mercilus are also playing a big factor, although they’ve plugged those holes much better than they have plugged holes in years past.

The frustration with Bill is understandable but you have to put it in context. The team has a talent problem, especially when you factor in the injuries. If you expect them to beat a 6-2 team that is on a winning streak and playing at a high level, you’ve got an expectation problem.

 

[Scooter]

Who is getting worse? Name me someone who wasn’t already bad.

Just watch Filo out there. It would be very surprising to me if you could find an offensive lineman in the entire league that played that poorly yesterday. Maybe Giocomini or however you spell it is up there, but he is also a Texan. The Rams were either on top of Savage, or with a hand directly in his line of sight, or both on the majority of his passes. That’s very difficult to overcome.

The safeties are continuously blowing coverages and we are consistently playing street FAs at corner.

You're answering your own question. There are areas that we've continually gotten worse - the offensive line is most obvious. XSF keeps getting worse, the free agents on the line we bring in get worse, outside of a brief bit of competency our tightends have gotten worse. We bring in several DB's each season and cant coach them up, relying on street free agents instead of the guys in camp. Savage is the only quarterback that O'Brien has stuck with and he's gone nowhere (or declined). We're getting worse each year across the board, or at least aren't getting better.

 

[Hervoyel]

Exactly.

And OBrien is as responsible as Rick on the horrible personnel decisions. They work together. He isn't "given" anything, he is choosing with Rick who is on this roster.

Sad thing is I don't have any faith the organization will make the correct diagnosis

When Gary Kubiak was working with Rick to put players on this roster the two of them were finding players. In the draft, on other teams practice squads, and in free agency. Now that's not working and the guy who changed wasn't Rick Smith. Believe me, I don't think he's done a good job here. I'm not a Rick Smith fan. I think he at best "does no harm" and he's pretty good at sifting through the street free agents and finding replacements for guys who go down but I don't think he's a GM who adds a lot to the front office. He does what he's told by McNair (naturally) and he works with the head coach but he doesn't have some kind of amazing insight into what will make a player special. If we ever had that it came from Kubiak not Smith. Later it maybe came from Wade Phillips on the defensive side because that was a Kubiak blind spot.

It's pretty obvious Bill O'Brien doesn't bring that kind of vision to the table either.

 

[TexansSeminole]

You're answering your own question. There are areas that we've continually gotten worse - the offensive line is most obvious. XSF keeps getting worse, the free agents on the line we bring in get worse, outside of a brief bit of competency our tightends have gotten worse. We bring in several DB's each season and cant coach them up, relying on street free agents instead of the guys in camp. Savage is the only quarterback that O'Brien has stuck with and he's gone nowhere (or declined). We're getting worse each year across the board, or at least aren't getting better.

Filo looks to be leaking confidence. He appears to know that he sucks. That’s going to lead to worse play no matter the position. Why the staff continues to play him is something that needs to be looked at. His career is over.

The FAs we brought in on the OL sucked from day 1. Every single one of them. Maybe they are playing worse now than when they first arrived, I’m not sure, but they were terrible from the jump. The only competent DBs we have are 1st round picks. Hal has a moment every once in awhile but consistently reads plays incorrectly and he’s not a good tackler.

 

[Hervoyel]

You can talk about firing Bill all you want but until we have a GM that can build a full team, it doesn’t matter who coaches it. It’s always some position group that is downright poor. Every year.

When guards and tackles are getting tossed around by the defense on almost every play, it’s going to be very difficult to get anything done on offense. You add the injuries and there is no magic button a coach can press. I’m not sure what most of y’all expect.

I’m sure if any change is made it will be to replace BoB and not Rick Smith, then we will be back here in 3 years talking about firing that guy.

That's not true. Not at all. This GM can work with a coach who knows what he wants because he's done it in the past. He worked with Gary Kubiak and then Gary Kubiak & Wade Phillips and all he did was assemble a very talented roster of players that we'd be kicking the **** out of this division with if we had them right now in their prime. This GM has very real limitations but when he's got good coaches who know what they are doing he's found good players for those coaches. There's a pattern here that can easily be parsed for information we don't have one who makes what happen. Sure it's not perfectly accurate but if you look at this team from the moment Charlie Casserly walked out of that building you see that unless there's a good talent judge in the room Rick sucks but when there is one around he's done much better.

Like I said in my previous post, he's not an asset and he could absolutely be improved upon but since that's not going to happen we've got to have a strong head coach who knows what he's doing and knows player talent. Without one we got nothing at all.

Kubiak was also arguably the only HC (granted there have only been two) who was for all practical purposes Rick Smith's equal. McNair can say what he wants about everyone contributing to decisions being made but we all know that if he wants something it happens and after that it's downhill to Rick and then to OB. If Rick Smith and Bill O'Brien are truly equals when it comes to having a say in talent that would come as a complete shock to me.

 

[TexansSeminole]

That's not true. Not at all. This GM can work with a coach who knows what he wants because he's done it in the past. He worked with Gary Kubiak and then Gary Kubiak & Wade Phillips and all he did was assemble a very talented roster of players that we'd be kicking the **** out of this division with if we had them right now in their prime. This GM has very real limitations but when he's got good coaches who know what they are doing he's found good players for those coaches. There's a pattern here that can easily be parsed for information we don't have one who makes what happen. Sure it's not perfectly accurate but if you look at this team from the moment Charlie Casserly walked out of that building you see that unless there's a good talent judge in the room Rick sucks but when there is one around he's done much better.

Like I said in my previous post, he's not an asset and he could absolutely be improved upon but since that's not going to happen we've got to have a strong head coach who knows what he's doing and knows player talent. Without one we got nothing at all.

Couldn’t disagree more with the first point. The Rick Smith + Gary Kubiak experiment failed. We didn’t win anything of note and it ended in a #1 overall draft pick. We won a couple division titles, but the AFCS was by far the worst division during Kubiak’s tenure.

This draft, IMO, was the best draft Rick Smith has ever had. The problem was that he didn’t address the real need areas (outside of QB, which is huge) in either the draft or FA. There is no coach that is going to mask the smell of this OL and it was our weakest position in 2016. This is something that happens every year. We do bring in some talented players on average, but the team as a whole isn’t set up for a lot of success when one or two position groups are so poor. And that’s every year.

To your second point, it doesn’t make sense to weigh coaches down with this team building issue and then turn around and blame them for the majority of the issues.

I’m hoping we can make some changes both at OL and S next year, but the team builder (RS) has put the team in a position in which we will have to get very lucky to fix that next offseason, which means we have gone 3 offseasons without really addressing the two areas that have been the most glaring weaknesses on the team. QB would be the third, but we fixed that already, thankfully.

Bottom line, Bill could be improved upon, but it can get a whole lot worse. A whole lot. You’re going to need an elite head coach to consistently overcome the overall team building issue we’ve had here. It makes more sense to attack that issue rather than hoping to land a coach that can mask it.

 

[ObsiWan]

I'll try. At 3-4 they won 42.8% of their games, on that path that would be 6.8 wins for the season. Round it up to 7 wins and the last time the AFC South was won at 7-9 was.... never.

You need to edit the thread title; we were 3-4 when Watson was HEALTHY.
We've only played two games with him injured.

 

[Hervoyel]

Couldn’t disagree more with the first point. The Rick Smith + Gary Kubiak experiment failed. We didn’t win anything of note and it ended in a #1 overall draft pick. We won a couple division titles, but the AFCS was by far the worst division during Kubiak’s tenure.

This draft, IMO, was the best draft Rick Smith has ever had. The problem was that he didn’t address the real need areas (outside of QB, which is huge) in either the draft or FA. There is no coach that is going to mask the smell of this OL and it was our weakest position in 2016. This is something that happens every year. We do bring in some talented players on average, but the team as a whole isn’t set up for a lot of success when one or two position groups are so poor. And that’s every year.

To your second point, it doesn’t make sense to weigh coaches down with this team building issue and then turn around and blame them for the majority of the issues.

I’m hoping we can make some changes both at OL and S next year, but the team builder (RS) has put the team in a position in which we will have to get very lucky to fix that next offseason, which means we have gone 3 offseasons without really addressing the two areas that have been the most glaring weaknesses on the team. QB would be the third, but we fixed that already, thankfully.

Bottom line, Bill could be improved upon, but it can get a whole lot worse. A whole lot. You’re going to need an elite head coach to consistently overcome the overall team building issue we’ve had here. It makes more sense to attack that issue rather than hoping to land a coach that can mask it.

This is the best draft he's ever had? The one we've only had on the roster for 9 regular season games? I don't know how that's even possible to say at this point. Certainly Watson is a special player but so was Watt, so was Clowney, and so is Hopkins. Past that you got what exactly? Cunningham who is still learning how to play the game and far from tearing it up out there? Foreman? What has he done that Ben Tate didn't do in his first season? Watkins looks to be a steal in the fourth but so was Reader in the 5th the year before.

This draft is pretty typical of a Rick Smith draft. About four hits in the bunch and a few complete whiffs mixed among them probably before it's all said and done.

I think the biggest problem during the Kubiak era was simply the lack of a defensive mind capable of taking advantage of the personnel that had been drafted. When Wade Phillips arrived suddenly we were fielding a defense that could compete and yes, we fell short in the playoffs but the team was ascending not getting worse. We'd wasted DeMeco Ryans time here and Brian Cushing's best years already. Mario Williams left after Wade's first season for a big payday so most of his time was wasted here too playing on defenses that weren't worth a ****. If Kubiak had started out here with the understanding that he didn't know dick about defense and that hiring his pals to be DC's in training was a bad idea then maybe we'd have won something during those years. Once Schaub got hurt that window closed quickly.

We'll never know I guess but it's funny how they went to Denver together and nabbed a ring. Windows are small in the NFL.

One of the biggest difference makers for us during Kubiak's time here was the free agent signings of Manning and Joseph. We had a need and we went out and filled that need in a single awesome off-season. Where is that kind of audacity today? When was the last time we signed a free agent (let alone two of them) who changed our team for the better instantly? Why did that happen once when Wade got here and then never again? That I think comes from above Rick Smith. That was like that one time Drayton McClane decided to go out and spend for pitchers and when it didn't work out he didn't do it again for a decade except this worked and McNair still didn't do it again. Maybe the opportunity never presented itself again or maybe we just got into cap hell and stayed there for years and years (seems like we would remember that) but for whatever reason the Texans did it once and never really went back and did it again.

 

[TexansSeminole]

This is the best draft he's ever had? The one we've only had on the roster for 9 regular season games? I don't know how that's even possible to say at this point. Certainly Watson is a special player but so was Watt, so was Clowney, and so is Hopkins. Past that you got what exactly? Cunningham who is still learning how to play the game and far from tearing it up out there? Foreman? What has he done that Ben Tate didn't do in his first season? Watkins looks to be a steal in the fourth but so was Reader in the 5th the year before.

This draft is pretty typical of a Rick Smith draft. About four hits in the bunch and a few complete whiffs mixed among them probably before it's all said and done.

I think the biggest problem during the Kubiak era was simply the lack of a defensive mind capable of taking advantage of the personnel that had been drafted. When Wade Phillips arrived suddenly we were fielding a defense that could compete and yes, we fell short in the playoffs but the team was ascending not getting worse. We'd wasted DeMeco Ryans time here and Brian Cushing's best years already. Mario Williams left after Wade's first season for a big payday so most of his time was wasted here too playing on defenses that weren't worth a ****. If Kubiak had started out here with the understanding that he didn't know dick about defense and that hiring his pals to be DC's in training was a bad idea then maybe we'd have won something during those years. Once Schaub got hurt that window closed quickly.

We'll never know I guess but it's funny how they went to Denver together and nabbed a ring. Windows are small in the NFL.

It’s not possible to say definitively. I’ve felt that way about this draft since the day that the draft ended. This is the most talented group that we’ve drafted IMO. Watson, Foreman, Cunningham, and Watkins are really talented players. JMO.

In regards to the team ascending under Kubiak, that’s just not true. They had the worst record in the league in their last year here. He didn’t get fired because of the years that he couldn’t find a competent DC. He found one, had a few seasons with him and then was fired.

The fact that they went on to another roster and won a Super Bowl, with very questionable QB play, shows that the issue was more roster related than coaching related. The Broncos had a complete roster for those two to work with, and that’s not something they had in Houston. It’s not something that Bill has ever had here either.

 

[Perki-Perk]

I'll try. At 3-4 they won 42.8% of their games, on that path that would be 6.8 wins for the season. Round it up to 7 wins and the last time the AFC South was won at 7-9 was.... never.

At 3 and 4 and of those 4 losses only 1 was a blowout. Of the last 9 games for us to play, we had penciled in one, maybe 2 more L's as long as Watson was the QB. When you lose 2 of your top 3 or 4 guys on defense, that hurts no matter how you slice it. When your line sucks, how is that on O'brien? I don't like some of his calls and game management, but what he did the last 3 years with the bs we had behind center has been nothing short of amazing. Defense? He don't coach that and had we had better defense, we would have been sitting at a likely record of 5-2 before Watson went down...doesn't help us the rest of the season, but there is a clear and concise difference between the skill level of Watson and Savage. Watson being a rookie, I don't fault him for giving it a go with Savage. Once the real game speed kicked in, he knew he had to make a change to Watson. Funny thing is, many here advocated for Savage and letting the rookie learn. Well guess what, that is pretty much how it usually goes in the NFL, And though Savage finally threw his first couple of TD passes over the last couple of weeks, he was still looked much more competent in relief of Arseweiler last year. That just goes to show you the crap he has had to work with.

Rick Smith? Name me another GM that hits on first rounders as well as he does, and now he's starting to get good in the 2nd round too, hopefully the 3rd in the upcoming draft.

You people have some just unrealistic expectations.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Another thing I don’t understand is that Kubiak and BoB have almost identical accomplishments as coaches of this franchise. Two division titles, two playoff appearences, with Kubiak having a better playoff record by one game. In Kubiak’s last year here, much of the talk on the board was very similar to what you see now.

Sure, Kubiak had better offensive numbers after we got Schaub, but BoB had the #1 offense with Watson. Why is Kubiak looked at so favorably in comparison to BoB?

Early in the season, and in previous seasons, everybody was complaining about BoB’s inability to adjust to the talent he has on offense. In comes Watson and the type of plays he called changed and it resulted in some of the best offensive production we have ever seen here. Maybe, it’s more to do with talent than coaching? That sure seems to have been the case at QB.

I’m rambling, but it’s very difficult for me to understand why there is such a push to be rid of BoB when we’ve seen this before. The real issue is the same issue that held Kubiak back.

 

[Hervoyel]

It’s not possible to say definitively. I’ve felt that way about this draft since the day that the draft ended. This is the most talented group that we’ve drafted IMO. Watson, Foreman, Cunningham, and Watkins are really talented players. JMO.

In regards to the team ascending under Kubiak, that’s just not true. They had the worst record in the league in their last year here. He didn’t get fired because of the years that he couldn’t find a competent DC. He found one, had a few seasons with him and then was fired.

The fact that they went on to another roster and won a Super Bowl, with very questionable QB play, shows that the issue was more roster related than coaching related. The Broncos had a complete roster for those two to work with, and that’s not something they had in Houston. It’s not something that Bill has ever had here either.

Your memory is messed up man. He didn't find one. He was made to accept one. McNair went out and got Phillips and he told Gary it was time to bring in a defensive mind. The chain of "Friends of Gary" had to end so the days of Richard Smith and Frank Bush wasting valuable, irreplaceable years of Pro Bowl careers was brought to a halt. In Wade's three seasons here we went 10-6, then 12-4 before the wheels came off at 2-14.

In the first post I made in this thread I focused on that being a complete aberration brought on by Schaub's now limited abilities combined with injuries to both Foster (8 starts) and Tate (7 starts), and Owen Daniels (5 starts). We literally had to go to Case Keenum at QB without our running game working properly and our clutch TE lost for the season. Kubiak knew Keenum wasn't ready for that kind of pressure and that's probably why he was so reluctant to throw him out there. Between that happening, the stress of his mini-stroke that year, and then having the HC fired that season was I think a complete aberration. I'm pretty sure with a new QB the next year (2014) and Wade coaching the defense Kubiak could have gotten more than 9 wins out of this team. O'Brien tore it down methodically for 2 more years and was still able to get 9 wins each season. I just think you're letting a dislike of Kubiak and the frustration of those years color your opinion of where the team was and where it was going.

That roster during the 2-14 season was a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now if all the players on both teams were healthy. The 2013 Texans would disassemble this version and pick their teeth with the bones if both were equally healthy. That's talent acquisition and both teams were put together by the same GM. Only real difference is the coaches input on that talent acquired.

 

[TexansSeminole]

Your memory is messed up man. He didn't find one. He was made to accept one. McNair went out and got Phillips and he told Gary it was time to bring in a defensive mind. The chain of "Friends of Gary" had to end so the days of Richard Smith and Frank Bush wasting valuable, irreplaceable years of Pro Bowl careers was brought to a halt. In Wade's three seasons here we went 10-6, then 12-4 before the wheels came off at 2-14.
In the first post I made in this thread I focused on that being a complete aberration brought on by Schaub's now limited abilities combined with injuries to both Foster (8 starts) and Tate (7 starts), and Owen Daniels (5 starts). We literally had to go to Case Keenum at QB without our running game working properly and our clutch TE lost for the season. Kubiak knew Keenum wasn't ready for that kind of pressure and that's probably why he was so reluctant to throw him out there. Between that happening, the stress of his mini-stroke that year, and then having the HC fired that season was I think a complete aberration. I'm pretty sure with a new QB the next year (2014) and Wade coaching the defense Kubiak could have gotten more than 9 wins out of this team. O'Brien tore it down methodically for 2 more years and was still able to get 9 wins each season. I just think you're letting a dislike of Kubiak and the frustration of those years color your opinion of where the team was and where it was going.

That roster during the 2-14 season was a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now if all the players on both teams were healthy. The 2013 Texans would disassemble this version and pick their teeth with the bones if both were equally healthy. That's talent acquisition and both teams were put together by the same GM. Only real difference is the coaches input on talent.

If Wade was all McNair, that’s not a ringing endorsement of Kubiak.

Look at your first paragraph here. You could switch some names and accurately describe this season. Serious injuries, made to go to a QB that the staff had not showed any confidence in, down year, etc. Enough went wrong that the deficiencies on the team couldn’t be masked even against subpar teams.

Eye (iPhone won’t let me type it correctly) didn’t want Kubiak fired. Eye like/liked Kubiak and perhaps with that comment, you are missing my overall point. It’s not so much about the coach but about what the coach is provided, which is a team with serious deficiencies at one or more position groups. It’s been that way for every season with two different head coaches.

Back with Kubiak, DBs were a huge issue. Until they signed Joseph, we had some of the worst DB groups in the league. Cover LBers were a huge problem during his entire tenure and much of BoB tenure. Remember how many crossing routes were completed on those teams in those years? Remember how many wide open TEs we saw. Most of the games we were blown out in were due to this deficiency. It was impossible to beat the good teams with those guys as starters.

WRs were a big issue under Kubiak. Outside of AJ and Daniels, we didn’t have many pass catching threats and again, against good teams, it was a big problem. It was that way for many years.

There have always been position groups that have held the team back and it didn’t matter so much about the coaching.

My memory isn’t messed up at all. If anything, eye see correlation in issues that require a detailed memory of why each team failed. Since we hired Kubiak and Wade, coaching was never the main issue with our teams.

 

[Mr teX]

If we lose out which is not out of the question at this point do they bring Obrien back as a lame duck with one year left on his contract?

Dude lost 3 of the 5 most impactful players on this team in Watson, Mercy and Watt. No coach outside of Bill Belichick could withstand losing even 1 (Mike McCarthy anyone?) let alone 3.

Texans fans don't want to hear it, but this season was doomed from the start with Harvey and i said as much right after the Jax game....The Duane Brown fiasco,Bob McNair's comments; lets just say The FO didn't do him any favors either. The level of %$#^ery this season for the Texans was near Houston '93 levels.

The only way BoB is out of here is if he wants to be...but given what he was able to do in his 3-4 years here with no qb & then us getting a glimpse of what his offense could do with a capable qb in Watson...... He should be back to at least get the opportunity rectify this season...regardless of what some of you knee jerk fans think.