Vince Young on PTI

[YoungTexanFan]

What are you even talkin about? I mean really...

blind love? scapegoat tactics? please spare me...

what does me and my good luck in life have to do with our piss-poor team...i know that I am not the only Houstonian that watches and agrees with my 1st comment...the truth hurts...i know

please reply with something worth reading.

you were only placing the blame on carr who has withstood more than most men could take, he has shown his potential when given the time, he has shown he is willing to make the play himself while giving up his body.

i just find it odd that you only place the blame on him, that is called making him a scapegoat. the truth hurts. I was saying that i hope you dont become a scapegoat in your life like carr has. I was simply wishing you some mere amount of sucess. take it with a grain of salt, but take it son.

 

[edo783]

Good post and you are correct, Vince will not be a Texan unless something MAJOR happens like Carr having a career injury or something.

 

[Fiddy]

Second, Vince Young will be successful in the NFL, but he doesn't need to be successful for our team. Had he been starting for us this year instead of Carr, all other things being equal, he would have floundered similarly, if not ended up far worse off. He is not Mike Vick, other than he is fast and plays quarterback. Quit comparing the two as if he is Mike Vick II.

The only way I compared the two was winning. I didnt compare arm strength or speed. VY is VY, Mike Vick is Mike Vick.

Fourth, this team has plenty of positions to be upgraded, most notably O-line, D-line, ILB, and maybe a safety or two for good measure. If we do land the first pick, it makes no sense drafting any of the above with it. Work a legitimate trade that will position us in free agency or give us another pick to address one of our many other needs.

The O-line has been pretty damn good lately because the coaching staff finally figured out Pitts belongs at LT.

Finally, and I have no idea why, Fiddy has challenged me to answer the question, "What young unproven QB could have the type of game Carr had against KC and not get benched?" This of course assumes that "unproven" is not completely a matter of opinion and could be defined neatly as or within the context of a statistical category, since Fiddy heavily utilizes statistics unless they do not conveniently prove his point. Further, he assumes his argument is remotely relevant, and even if my answer were, "there is no one else," I fail to see how that is relevant to anything we have discussed. Nonetheless, and because "unproven" is a matter of opinion, I will offer mine, and name the following QBs, of a few:

Byron Leftwich
Eli Manning
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Aaron Brooks

Virtually all other starters in the league are veterans, and thus excluded under Fiddy's "young" clause.

Don't try to tell me that these guys are "proven." A winning record is not "proven." Unless of course, like your assertion for Vince Young, it is based on opinion we don't share.

My point of this question is to show you that the coaching staff, as much as you hate them, has kept Carr's public image intact. If Carr would have had that game anywhere else, he would have been on the bench for the rest of the game. Detriot sent a message to Harrington: Improve or you sit. They also ruined his image. That message was never sent to Carr.

Do you know that Carson Palmer is a legit MVP candidate, although Manning will win it again, and Brees is a Pro-Bowler??? Brooks would probably find the bench. Coughlin wouldn't put up with Eli if he had a horrendus game. Like I said, not sure about Leftwich. So according to you, a MVP candidate and a Pro-Bowler would find the bench if they suck it up, but for some reason that never has happened to Carr who has had his fair share of stinkers.

Hopefully the new coaching staff will not baby the QB just to keep his image intact.


And back to your statement that I only use stats that help me.

Post 1 - No stats:
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=213936&postcount=13

Post 2 - 1 stat: Winning percentage for Vick.
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214140&postcount=22

Post 3 - 2 stats: Carr's sr. year college schedule, SOS between VY and ML, even said stats dont make players
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214170&postcount=27

Post 4 - 0 stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214187&postcount=30

Post 5 - 1 stat if you wanna count the drive summary for the OT drive
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214210&postcount=32

Post 6 - 2 stats: VY completion percentage and if you wanna throw out the Chris Simms fact that I just threw out there to show Carr has a lot to do
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214240&postcount=36

Post 7 - No stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214243&postcount=38

Post 8 - 1 stat I guess - The winning stat for Banks maybe a second if you wanna count Carr throwing many INTs
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214259&postcount=42

Post 9 - No stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214265&postcount=43

Post 10 - You be the judge: Carr's fumble, the INT I mentioned, points that the Bengals had, points that Texans had, 158 passing yards and 1 TD that'd I'd be fine with. I see that as 0 but maybe you see it differently.
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214259&postcount=42

Post 11 - 0 stats: "small handful of games" for Banks so maybe 1 stat
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214296&postcount=49

Post 12 - 0 stats: You can count the INT thing again, I guess maybe the "forseeable future" being 3 years for me
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214357&postcount=55

Post 13 - 0 stats
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=214364&postcount=57


So where did I use stats "heavily???" I don't see it.

 

[swtbound07]

i dont want to lodge for/against vince young, cause frankly the only thing i care about is the o-line, but i do want to address one point made earlier in this thread, which was that they would take a chance on vince young because he was a proven winner in college, and his 18 game win streak and the like.

A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team?

 

[kbourda]

I will say this. Eventhough I agree with Fiddy with the drafting of Young, next year there should be an open competition for the starting QB spot reguardless. Hey, Carr has had his chance. I say you trade Carr and get what you can for him.

 

[Fiddy]

A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team?

The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?

 

[kbourda]

i dont want to lodge for/against vince young, cause frankly the only thing i care about is the o-line, but i do want to address one point made earlier in this thread, which was that they would take a chance on vince young because he was a proven winner in college, and his 18 game win streak and the like.

A young fellow by the name of Ken Dorsey went something like 35-2 as a starter in college, won a national championship, and ended up going to the 49ers as a 7th round draft pick....anybody want that "proven winner" quarterbacking your team?

Ask yourself or anyone looking at this thread at this time. Do you feel those Miami teams would have been less successful with Brock Berlin as the QB? And also do you think the Texas teams can be just as successful with Matt Norgden as the QB?

 

[kbourda]

The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?

Every single person you named from that team is in the NFL. WOW!

 

[kbourda]

The difference is Dorsey was throwing to AJ, S. Moss, Shockey, Reggie Wayne, had Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis in the backfield. Young is doing his stuff with Sweed and Pittman as his go to WRs. Which supporting cast would you take, the NFL Pro Bowl team or the Good College Supporting cast?

And don't forget about KII, as well

 

[Fiddy]

And don't forget about KII, as well

He may have had Bubba and Edge for a year too...not sure though.

And not only are these guys on NFL rosters, they all start and most have been to Pro Bowls...

 

[kbourda]

He may have had Bubba and Edge for a year too...not sure though.

And not only are these guys on NFL rosters, they all start and most have been to Pro Bowls...

He did.

 

[MorKnolle]

I will say this. Eventhough I agree with Fiddy with the drafting of Young, next year there should be an open competition for the starting QB spot reguardless. Hey, Carr has had his chance. I say you trade Carr and get what you can for him.

How is trading Carr going to give a good competition at QB next year other than eliminating our one good QB so we have two equal, much worse QBs to duke it out?

 

[kbourda]

How is trading Carr going to give a good competition at QB next year other than eliminating our one good QB so we have two equal, much worse QBs to duke it out?

First of all, who is our good QB?

 

[tulexan]

Jason White's college record was comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't have a NFL filled roster. College statistics mean nothing. That is why we have the combine. Vince Young has as much of a chance of being our next quarterback as AJ Hawk does. Zero. We have a quarterback with Carr. We just need to protect him and surround him with some more playmakers. I'd love to see us have the chance to use a formation that doesn't involve max protection and gives us the chance to use more than 2 receivers.

 

[kbourda]

Jason White's college record was comparable to Vince Young's and he didn't have a NFL filled roster. College statistics mean nothing. That is why we have the combine. Vince Young has as much of a chance of being our next quarterback as AJ Hawk does. Zero. We have a quarterback with Carr. We just need to protect him and surround him with some more playmakers. I'd love to see us have the chance to use a formation that doesn't involve max protection and gives us the chance to use more than 2 receivers.

I don't know. I just don't see the progression of Carr's game. I was his biggest apoligist for the longest time (as I was Yao Ming's) just I can't justify it anymore. Every team in the NFL does not get the same protection as Manning does, so what's their excuse? Truth is, our o-line sucks (be it players or coaching, i'm thinking the latter) but just don't tell me that we are the only team with a wack o-line. And I can remember back as far as last year a team like the Giants had a terrible o-line. As of right now, they are 9th in total yards in the NFL. Last year we had more yards per game than the Giants who were 6th from last. Now in 2005 we're 2nd to last in the NFL. So is it fair to say the players from the Giants are smarter, better, stronger? If so, how did they get that way in one year? For that matter, how did we get the way that we are in one year?

 

[cadahnic]

First off many QBs have much worse games than Carr and do not get benched. See Brady or Eli's 4 int games. Take a look at Drew Brees' game vs Dallas. It is the way the NFL is. Sometimes a qb is going to have a bad game. Has Carr shown promise yes. Is he anywere near what we expect out of him no. Is that Carr or is the playcalling/system. Likely the latter of the two. But possibly a little of both. I like Carr and when he gets aggressive playcalling he has been lights out for us. VY a good college QB not great, and will be a good NFL pro. Doubt he will end up a Texan though.

 

[tulexan]

Well the Giants have two very good receivers in Burress and Toomer. They have one of the best running backs in the league in Barber, and they have one of the best tight ends in the league in Shockey. Add their good line in there and they have the recipe for success. We on the other hand have one good receiver in Johnson, a good but not great running back in Davis who has been hurt, and no tight end. We also do not have an offensive line that can consistently give our quarterback time to throw or that allows us to stretch the field. Like someone said earlier, when the other team can rush 4 and allow everyone else to play in coverage while we can only send 2 receivers because we are in max protection, you aren't going to have many open players.

 

[Hervoyel]

Add their good line in there and they have the recipe for success...

Remember not too long ago when the Giants were playing on MNF and all they talked about was the patchwork line they had of guys they picked up down at the labor pool and the biggest kids they could get from Our Lady of the Divine Miracle Orphanage. I think that was Fassell's last year there but I'm not sure. Anyway now it's at the most two seasons later and you are (correctly) discussing their "good" line.

That kind of thing is why I get so frustrated over the Texans. In the time they've taken to build (badly) other teams have been pretty good, crashed, completely rebuilt, and are contending for playoff spots. Meanwhile we're still struggling with the same issues we had in year one.

 

[Frills]

V Y isn't an NFL QB.

He's just a another version of Kordell Stewart. but lacking arm strength and accuracy.

Quite a few OU QB's looked great in college and didn't amount to jack in the NFL, they were good in college due to the system they ran. Last year Vince was in a more pro style offense, and he looked like crapola.

He will be turned into a WR.

 

[Fiddy]

I will not address any of the other points because we are both repeating ourselves ad nauseum now, saying the same things over and over again in different words. However:

Out of all of the assumptions that you and I have used in our debate (namely, my support of the theory that Carr has struggled because of coaching, system, and personnel, and you, that Vince is the Answer because he wins in college and is a great athlete) ... this one absolutely takes the cake. You are now contending that, if I am reading this right, the coaching staff has not benched Carr because their agenda is "protecting" Carr's image?

Wtf?! Talk about conspiracy theories! As inept as our coaching staff is, they will always work to do what, in their minds, is best for the team and will produce W's. That you would even suggest they leave Carr on the field because they are worried about his "image," to the exclusion of winning, has automatically disqualified the legitimacy of your arguments, past, present, and future.

There main agenda is not to protect Carr's image but that is what they have done. Carr did not give us a chance to win in the KC game, he threw away the game with 30 seconds left in the 1st half. Why in the fourth quarter in a blowout do you not bring in Banks or Ragone and take out the expensive QB??? Why do you keep Carr in??? There is no point except for the fact that if Ragone or Banks does marginally well in mop-up duty, now on top of a pitiful season, Capers and Casserly now have a QB controversey on their hands. No other 4th year QB that struggles as much as Carr in recent history has been able to stay on the field when he sucks it up.

And an agenda for the business side of the team is to keep Carr's image intact for sponsors. How would all those company sponsers who use and pay Carr for his face on their products feel when the guy on their payroll is now part of a QB controversy???

And funny how you have just condmened all future arguments from me when you said I used stats "heavily" when it favors me but as I researched my posts for you, I rarely used any stats. A false accusation is worse than anything you can say to refute my points and defend Carr.

 

[Vinny]

I have told you that not only do I feel that Vince Young lacks the intangibles that I look for in an NFL QB, but much more importantly, that Carr possesses them

You lost me here totally....Vince Young has superstar level intangibles and Carr has shown to have none so far.

Also, its incredibly weak to dog the posters due to age. Find something else....that shows me you are grasping.

 

[Fiddy]

Let me rephrase.

You fawn over Vince Young because of his personal numbers and the fact that he has a lot of Ws playing for a college team. Numbers which, as has been repeatedly stated and shown, are in no way promised to translate to the NFL.

I don't fawn over Young's stats. His stats arent that great, the way he effects a game is.

You assert that Carr is not the right QB for the Texans on the basis of his own arguable lack of statistical production, and because of his lack of team Ws. You say that we were the most productive under Banks, but in this case you only isolated one statistic - the W - from two games and ignored the entirety of every other component that goes into that W.

I don't care about if Carr gets 350 yards passing or his career game average of 180. Give me the win. (I better watch it though, I just heavily used stats) And I have stated what happened in those other games. Infatrycak brought up the defensive game the defense had in those games, I brought the defensive game they had in the Bengals game. Only difference is Banks was QB in one of those, Carr was in the other.

I have told you that not only do I feel that Vince Young lacks the intangibles that I look for in an NFL QB, but much more importantly, that Carr possesses them, and his performance thus far does not indicate his potential or future worth to the franchise, once we actually bring in a competent cast and crew for him to work with.

Lack of intaglibles for VY??? Now I've heard it all. One of VY's greatest attributes his how he controls the huddles, keeps the team calm, rallys players behind him, carries his team. He has the respect of everyone on that team. VY lack of intangibles??? Sure...

I do not condone his play against KC: I watched the game too, and he didn't step up. Yes, he has had some bad performances, just like every HOFer has at some point in their careers. The truth is that his negative is still far outweighed by his upside and the ability that he has demonstrated.

I dont know of a HOFer that had shown less growth in his first 4 years than Carr. Usually the QB is suppose to grow in 4 years, Carr still makes rookie mistakes, like locking onto WRs, not stepping up in the pocket, breaking the pocket when he doesnt have to.

You ask, why not bring in Banks and Ragone? I ask, why bother? They will not win the game either, and scoring in garbage time doesn't prove anything toward establishing their plausibility as a starter.

If this guy is the franchise, the coaching staff should have no problem sitting him at the end of a blowout so he doesnt get injured. If it was Peyton Manning who struggled, they have no problem sitting him because everyone knows what he can do and nothing the backup can do can unseat him.

And by the way, USC is still going to pound the life out of UT this year, and prove you for the circus of hype you really are.

They could. Anything could happen that game. That's why they play.

 

[Porky]

In this 15 round heavyweight debate, by an easy Knockout, the Amazing Fiddy is the new world Champion.

 

[Coach C.]

Well it was not a knockout, it was really a split decision and mine goes for Jerek. The truth is that VY has done the same things that many other athletic QBs have done and he has done it with a great team around him. I have watched Omar Jacobs for the last 4 years run around and be one of the best QBs in college football. Is Omar Jacobs a better QB than Vince? of Course he is. Is his hype as much as Vince? Hell no. The fact that people blindly follow Vince and ignore his shortcomings reminds me of some Carr supporters who do the same thing and are blasted constantly on this board. Bottomline is this. Fiddy follows Vince based upon his opinion that he can change the game like no QB he may have seen before and Jerek says Vince is not the die hard QB that can run for 50yds and pass for 300 that we may need. Sounds split to me.

 

[stevo3883]

I hope that the other four pages of my statements are the "something else" you are looking for. As well, take a moment to read my qualifying statement regarding the intangibles: I said, I feel. Not, I know, he is, or he has, but I feel that he has. This is because intangibles are not statistically provable (sp?) and are in almost every sense a matter of perception. It simply depends on who is doing the perceiving, and as I am sure you can agree, it is one versus another. I feel that DC has not been given a fair shake or evaluation and that VY is being touted as the entirety of the answer when it is just not so. The end.

this is a lot like the last anti vince topic you posted. You said Vince has little to no upside. now you say he doesnt have the intangibles "you" look for in a NFL qb.

when i think of intangibles, i think of skills that just cant be taught, you either have them or you dont.

when I think about what i want from a qb, i think of these:
poise
confidence
ability under pressure
leadership (both verbally and by example)
a desire to always be better


when looking at upside, you look at a few things.
1. Does their decision making have much room for improvement?
2. Can they improve on their accuracy on all routes?

the reason Young would have more upside than a guy like Leinart, is that you know Leinart is near the top of his game, he is a very polished pocket passer, and his accuracy doesnt have much room for improvement. He isnt prone to many mistakes, so what you see now is most likely what you're going to get. His arm isnt very strong, so he relies on his great accuracy.

Vince is still raw, but has progressed amazingly the past year, from 12td 11int last year to 24td 8int this year, with a higher completiong %. now if he can get these numbers as a still raw passer, imagine what he would do with refined passing skills.... and thats just passing, not mentioning his amazing running ability.

Vince WILL be able to run on NFL defenses, he is the size of a linebacker but faster than any of them and has just amazing ability to break contain and tackles.

 

[bigcarlos]

Can somebody please tell Carr to reveal these unreplaceable "passing and running abilities" that he has. He sucks. Vince needs to be drafted ASAP-along with a new coach-along with some other isht too....The Texans need a major makeover. Stop stickin to the trash we have now and maybe we can actually do something we have had a problem doing since we established...WIN!!!

Hell Yeah

 

[BigBull17]

I didnt say the play was called for a long ball, I said throw it up in the air near a WR. You're gonna get sacked, give your WR a chance in OT especially since your defense is sucking air. If you get the INT, so what??? It's would be like a punt. Maybe you get a catch or an interference, but give your guys a chance...

Then you would have bitched about him being careless and questioned his heart ect, ect. In the NFL you never just "throw it up" and hope your guy makes the play. That leads to pick six.

 

[Fiddy]

Then you would have bitched about him being careless and questioned his heart ect, ect. In the NFL you never just "throw it up" and hope your guy makes the play. That leads to pick six.

Gunning it in there leads to a pick six, throwing a high lob pass and hoping for a pass interference or maybe even a catch would have been the right thing to do. You really wont see a high lob pass taken back because everyone on the field can see it and has time to react. There are usually 2 people fighting for it so the guy that doesnt come up with it will make the tackle most of time. And we were at the 45 or something like that right??? An INT could be like a punt to the 20.

 

[bigcarlos]

In this 15 round heavyweight debate, by an easy Knockout, the Amazing Fiddy is the new world Champion.

Congrats Fiddy

 

[tulexan]

Gunning it in there leads to a pick six, throwing a high lob pass and hoping for a pass interference or maybe even a catch would have been the right thing to do. You really wont see a high lob pass taken back because everyone on the field can see it and has time to react. There are usually 2 people fighting for it so the guy that doesnt come up with it will make the tackle most of time. And we were at the 45 or something like that right??? An INT could be like a punt to the 20.

Yeah there MIGHT have been a receiver and a corner back fighting for it. The corner back COULD have been tackled around the 20 making it basically a punt. But the guy also COULD have intercepted it and returned it for a touchdown. Then we would be hearing how David Carr is garbage and threw a pick six to lose the game. Face it, some of you will never like David Carr and will find ways to criticize him no matter what. So what really happened? He took the sack, they punted the ball, it was a touchback (to the 20 just like where you wanted David Carr to throw the ball so that it was either a catch or an interception), then Fitzpatrick threw a screen pass that went about 60 yards. I didn't see David Carr miss a few tackles and allow that receiver to score and win the game.

 

[Toro]

I dont think he is a lock for a top 10 pick. Here are the top 10 teams at this moment. I could see him going in the top 20.

If Young goes pro, unless he completely tanks at the Combine, he'll be a Top 10 pick and the second QB taken. I'm almost certain of that.

New York Jets - Pennington. They have so much money invested.

True, but keep in mind, Pennington never had a strong arm to begin with, and now that he's had to get it surgically repaired, he's going to be at even more of a disadvantage when throwing the long ball. I think the Jets go elsewhere with their pick (HB?) but it wouldn't stun me to see them pick a QB.

5 Tennessee - Billy Volek.

I'd take Young over Volek, and I'm pretty sure the Titans would too. Keep in mind, McNair was Young's mentor as he went in to college, so if Steve has any say as to who his heir apparent is, this could be the guy they pick.

6 Arizona - Should jump up and take Matt Lienart.

That's being discussed in the Desert. I could see them moving up to take Leinart or staying pat to take Young.

8 Baltimore - Possible QB pick.
9 Miami - Possible QB pick.

Believe me, there's no way in HELL Baltimore or Miami bypass Young if he falls to them.

Also, Jay Cutler is looking great this year. He might end up being the 2nd QB taken.

IMHO Cutler is this year's Jason Campbell. He'll rise up in to the lower half of the first round with a good Combine.