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Texans 1.3 Pick Derek Stingley Jr.

Dejaview said:
I guess I’m just trying to understand all this. In his pro day he beat the target figures in the vertical jump and three cone drill. Are these less strenuous than hi stepping? Did he regress from his pro day? could Mo Town just have moved him in a different way? Does his type of injury absolutely require him to feel no pain without subjecting him to further discomfort? What is your gut feeling where he is at right now?
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The absence of pain is not a determinate for allowing a post lisfranc repair player to participate in progressive activity, since pain is commonly present in a majority of those players long-term to even permanent.

I have nothing to add to what I've already tried to explain throughout this thread regarding his isolated Pro Day performance. I certainly do not feel that Stingley is "ahead of schedule." I have responded previously to where it seems that he is in relationship to what would be expected in a post operative lisfranc time line.
 
Mr teX said:
i mean….ok…but who didnt expect him to still be on the mend? ….B..this is probably the 1st time since his surgery that he’s really about to get out there and put some high impact weight on his foot…expect the dude to be cautious in what hes doing…similar ti a guy who tears his ACL and is learning to trust his knee again….IOW’s it could be all mental.
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Hopefully you're right.

After seeing the studies CnD put out there, he will have to beat the odds.
 
Stingley will not go down as the worst pick ever, as far as the 3rd pick in the draft goes. But he will end up not being worth the pick. If the rest of the draft works out, then the Stingley pick will not seem like such a huge tragedy. The Texans have not historically picked well that high in the draft.

Carr - 1st pick in RD 1 - horrible
Andre Johnson - 3rd pick in RD 1 - historically excellent pick
Mario Williams - 1st pick in RD 1 - OK, but not even close to being worthy of the pick
Clowney - 1st pick in RD 1, not worth it by a huge margin

Stingley - to be determined.
 
Thorn said:
Stingley will not go down as the worst pick ever, as far as the 3rd pick in the draft goes. But he will end up not being worth the pick. If the rest of the draft works out, then the Stingley pick will not seem like such a huge tragedy. The Texans have not historically picked well that high in the draft.

Carr - 1st pick in RD 1 - horrible
Andre Johnson - 3rd pick in RD 1 - historically excellent pick
Mario Williams - 1st pick in RD 1 - OK, but not even close to being worthy of the pick
Clowney - 1st pick in RD 1, not worth it by a huge margin

Stingley - to be determined.
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historically top 5 picks usually dont end up being worth it across the league. The only guys i can think of in the last 20 years who were usually qbs like Manning, Ryan…Rivers. Most other position groups not so much.
 
OK, it's just me opining, but the Texans invested a #3 on this prospect who has had a serious injury. I'd sit him for the 2022 season; or if you can't stomach this, at least the first eight or nine games. Let him practice and work his lisfranc hard, but not overly hard. Really give him the time to recover as much as he will recover. What is done is done. Now we have to do what is best going forward.
 
Mr teX said:
historically top 5 picks usually dont end up being worth it across the league. The only guys i can think of in the last 20 years who were usually qbs like Manning, Ryan…Rivers. Most other position groups not so much.
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Von Miller seems to have worked out…
 
Jack Burton said:
Von Miller seems to have worked out…
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yeah you’ll find more than few who were good players for a few years, but “worth it” in my mind means guys who are perennial pro bowlers /HOFers…not alot of those taken over the last 20 years in the top 5…
 
Thorn said:
Stingley will not go down as the worst pick ever, as far as the 3rd pick in the draft goes. But he will end up not being worth the pick. If the rest of the draft works out, then the Stingley pick will not seem like such a huge tragedy. The Texans have not historically picked well that high in the draft.

Carr - 1st pick in RD 1 - horrible
Andre Johnson - 3rd pick in RD 1 - historically excellent pick
Mario Williams - 1st pick in RD 1 - OK, but not even close to being worthy of the pick
Clowney - 1st pick in RD 1, not worth it by a huge margin

Stingley - to be determined.
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There was a study that just came out today via the Athletic which measures strength of draft classes -
TOTALRD1AV: Total Round 1 Approximate Value)

2002 Carr, ranked 17th
2006 Mario, ranked 6th
2014 Clowney, ranked 11th
2017 Watson, ranked 18th
2020 Tunsil, ranked 4th
2021 Tunsil, ranked 2nd

So if I’m grading these drafts, given strength of class, it’s much easier to forgive Casserly, who was dealt a subpar first draft but followed that up before leaving with a decent haul/class 2006.

OB clearly was the worst and set this franchise back years, missing on the 4th and 2nd strongest draft classes in the last 20 years.

2022 will probably grade out in the top 5. So Caserio is well ahead of his predecessors.

:koolaid:
 
pirbroke said:
I think I watched it 15 times and just couldn’t see it, of course I have 0 medical background. I thought the camera angle could be causing difference looking at thighs but if I stared at feet the looked about same in distance off ground. If he is favoring foot due to pain with that simple warm up exercise then we may be in trouble.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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#24 is definitely not lifting his right knee very high. Not even 90*. I can't really tell on the left, but it appears symmetrical. Watch #38 in the video for comparison.
 
Brisco_County said:
I can see he was not high stepping to 100% of his range, maybe 95%. I know you're basing this on your experience in evaluating this motion countless times, so yeah I'm concerned now. Eager to see if this changes in three months.
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Watch #38 in the video. That's ~100%. #24 is maybe half of that, imho.
 
badboy said:
The Houston Texans reportedly gave Nick Caserio a six-year contract that will make him "one of the three highest-paid GMs in the league."

ESPN's Adam Schefter reported the details of Caserio's contract. According to Mike Florio of ProFootballTalk, Caserio's deal has a base value of $30 million and can max out at $36 million.

EDIT: Doc's post above mine indicates to me that my 2-3 year gambit suggestion could be correct.
*
bleacherreport.com

Report: Nick Caserio to Be Among Top-Paid GMs Under 6-Year Texans Contract

The Houston Texans reportedly gave Nick Caserio a six-year contract that will make him " one of the three highest-paid GMs in the league." ESPN's Adam Schefter reported the details of Caserio's contract...
bleacherreport.com bleacherreport.com
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Stupid people do stupid things. I've said the Texans will pizz away the DW4 bounty and it looks like they are well on their way to doing just that.
 
Number19 said:
OK, it's just me opining, but the Texans invested a #3 on this prospect who has had a serious injury. I'd sit him for the 2022 season; or if you can't stomach this, at least the first eight or nine games. Let him practice and work his lisfranc hard, but not overly hard. Really give him the time to recover as much as he will recover. What is done is done. Now we have to do what is best going forward.
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That's the thing with lisfranc injuries: even when fully healed they will still limit a player after heavy use. You can let Stingley Jr. sit for as long as you like and after X number of games, that lisfranc injury will rear its ugly head. At 7 months post-op, he's probably as healed as he's going to get, or close to it.
 
Texian said:
Stupid people do stupid things. I've said the Texans will pizz away the DW4 bounty and it looks like they are well on their way to doing just that.
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? The dw4 Bounty was Kenyon green 1. 15 and running back Damien Pierce at 4.107, correct? I am concerned about Green's knee but if I understand CnnnD correctly he should have no ongoing issues with it.

1.3 is a concern but had nothing to do with trade.
 
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steelbtexan said:
You didn't like this yrs draft? I liked it very much except for the Stingley pick.

If they fail according to you wouldn't that be on Lovie?
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Stingley was a Lovie pick and Green was a Warhop pick. Yes the picks (all of them) were made by Lovie and his hand-picked staff. So, yes Lovie is 100% responsible for the outcome of the 2022 draft.
 
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badboy said:
? The dw4 Bounty was Kavon green 1. 15 and running back Damien price at 4.107, correct? I am concerned about Green's knee but if I understand CnnnD correctly he should have no ongoing issues with it.
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1.3 is a concern but had nothing to do with trade.
 
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badboy said:
? The dw4 Bounty was Kavon green 1. 15 and running back Damien price at 4.107, correct? I am concerned about Green's knee but if I understand CnnnD correctly he should have no ongoing issues with it.

1.3 is a concern but had nothing to do with trade.
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A little bit to unpack here. You're correct in that in 2022 draft, #13 and #107 are part of the DW4 trade. Texans traded back to get extra picks that they used to move to #44. I've always contended that the #44 pick should've been part of the original DW4 trade and that Caserio dropped the ball when he settled for #107 instead. So that is a loss of 2 round position FUBAR IMO. Those (2) picks received for trading back were also wasted because the ball was dropped.

As to the Texans pizzing away the DW4 bounty as well their own draft picks. Texans used #3 on a high-risk pick that has a very high probability of not seeing BIGtime 2nd contract. They used their #15 pick on a player whose NFL athleticism is below average and his Combine and Pro Day performances were something you could easily find on day 3 of the draft. They traded up for a pick they should've started the draft with on a non-explosive slot receiver coming off an ACL injury. So, yes pizzing away the DW4 bounty is off to a very good start.

In essence, it is true that Lovie Smith and Nick Caserio are working very well together to create a BIG disappointment for the DW4 trade return.
 
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Texian said:
A little bit to unpack here. You're correct in that in 2022 draft, #13 and #107 are part of the DW4 trade. Texans traded back to get extra picks that they used to move to #44. I've always contended that the #44 pick should've been part of the original DW4 trade and that Caserio dropped the ball when he settled for #107 instead. So that is a loss of 2 round position FUBAR IMO. Those (2) picks received for trading back were also wasted because the ball was dropped.

As to the Texans pizzing away the DW4 bounty as well their own draft picks. Texans used #3 on a high-risk pick that has a very high probability of not seeing BIGtime 2nd contract. They used their #15 pick on a player whose NFL athleticism is below average and his Combine and Pro Day performances were something you could easily find on day 3 of the draft. They traded up for a pick they should've started the draft with on a non-explosive slot receiver coming off an ACL injury. So, yes pizzing away the DW4 bounty is off to a very good start.

In essence, it is true that Lovie Smith and Nick Caserio are working very well together to create a BIG disappointment for the DW4 trade return.
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Well okay but that is like taking the 610 loop around Houston when you could have just said you disagreed with the pics.
 
JB said:
My point stands... Gardner faced nowhere near the competition
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Sauce didn't allow many catches and zero TDs. Stingley is great if 100% and was covering WRs who are in the NFL now as a freshman. And covering them well. He has amazing recovery speed if he somehow gets turned around. He can be great but his injury didn't allow us to get a full 3yrs of film.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
It could have cushioned the repeated trauma impacting the ground. But there is a significant percentage of post lisfranc repairs that remain tender and painful for months, years and permanent, which the inserts could only partially mask.

Wearing these rigid carbon fiber insoles would not lend itself well to cutting, changing direction, "playing on your toes" to following WRs as they try evasive sudden moves by changing speed and direction.
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Correct, he needs what they use in cycling. Custom inserts that conform to your foot. Cushioning it and supporting it while allowing for everything you normally do to to be done.
 
SnakeEyes said:
Correct, he needs what they use in cycling. Custom inserts that conform to your foot. Cushioning it and supporting it while allowing for everything you normally do to to be done.
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Not exactly. The stiffer but still somewhat flexible cycling inserts are made for low/no impact activities such as cycling. For game play, they would not be adequate support for a post lisfranc repair. For that, the inserts would need to be rigid, something which would naturally limit "normal" football skill player performance to varying extent.
 
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Texansballer74 said:
Lol you seen maybe 95%. I’m too done.
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Dejaview said:
Well, I only saw 93.846%.
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Dumb thing to nitpick. The point is he wasn't high stepping to 100%, which is only not concerning in players who have not completely torn the lisfranc ligament off the bone.

Maybe Stingley just took some reps off. I hope so. But if someone who's had quadruple bypass complains of heartburn, do you say "lol, it's just acid reflux bro."

CnD hopes he's wrong more than anyone, but accurate expectations matter more than hope.
 
Brisco_County said:
Dumb thing to nitpick. The point is he wasn't high stepping to 100%, which is only not concerning in players who have not completely torn the lisfranc ligament off the bone.

Maybe Stingley just took some reps off. I hope so. But if someone who's had quadruple bypass complains of heartburn, do you say "lol, it's just acid reflux bro."

CnD hopes he's wrong more than anyone, but accurate expectations matter more than hope.
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No what’s dumb is looking at a darn video and trying to make a darn guess at to how much he’s high stepping. I see if you guys are actually there in person. But on a darn video, stop it
 
Thorn said:
Agreed. Every pick in this years draft can be justified (in one way or another) except for the Stingley pick. That was a terribly risky move with the #3 pick.
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Yea I know I'm still trying to understand Casserio's risk-reward analysis on the Stingley pick ?
I know we have atleast one person on this Board who thinks our new GM is an idiot or a fool but I'm not buying it.
So even if Casserio turns out not to be an above-average NFL GM he's still already a long-time NFL front office executive who knows the value of a 3rd overall pick, even if it's in a year of comparatively mediocre prospects.
And BTW no matter how much juice ownership may have invested in Lovie for drafting decisions in general, this pick has still got to be mostly Casserio's call because of the added uncertainty and risk with Stingley due to his injury history.
 
thunderkyss said:
Why do you think Nick went with Stingley?
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Just my opinion:
badboy said:
My read on both our guys in round one and their injury history: Car sterio needs to make impact in 2022 and 2023 despite how long his contract is. After then he will be half through his 6 year deal.* If Sting and Green are what their hype indicates these two seasons, I think it gives Nick a pass from ownership if not fans. It also gives him '23 and '24 drafts to select replacement(s) if that seems to be indicated after 17- 34 actual games of stress on the extremities. GM has made high risk bets round one & I wonder if that continues or if he locks and loads with different strategy tonight and Saturday.

EDIT: Doc's post above mine indicates to me that my 2-3 year gambit suggestion could be correct.
*
bleacherreport.com

Report: Nick Caserio to Be Among Top-Paid GMs Under 6-Year Texans Contract

The Houston Texans reportedly gave Nick Caserio a six-year contract that will make him " one of the three highest-paid GMs in the league." ESPN's Adam Schefter reported the details of Caserio's contract...
bleacherreport.com bleacherreport.com
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High risk decisions to move team short term protecting his job.
 
badboy said:
High risk decisions to move team short term protecting his job.
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What do you think of Gardener? Do you think Stingley could possibly have a big enough impact that Gardner would have looked like an inferior pick?

The only way I can see it being a “protect your job” scenario is if they brought both players in & something in that meet suggested Gardner is not what the NFL thinks he is.

When you factor in the injury, if they see Stingley as the better prospect, imo they must have found something seriously wrong with Gardner
 
thunderkyss said:
What do you think of Gardener? Do you think Stingley could possibly have a big enough impact that Gardner would have looked like an inferior pick?

The only way I can see it being a “protect your job” scenario is if they brought both players in & something in that meet suggested Gardner is not what the NFL thinks he is.

When you factor in the injury, if they see Stingley as the better prospect, imo they must have found something seriously wrong with Gardner
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I think it's sizzle rather than the steak on Stingley. If he can bring his 2019 self even for two seasons he will be worth Pick 3 to Nick. That is what Caserio and Lovie Smith are gambling on in my opinion. Everything that doc has told us over the years about lisfranc states it is a continuous degradation especially after 2 years. As I stated, if Stingley can bring his 2019 stats for two years and then degradation brings him to an average NFL corner for the remainder of his contract we will have gotten his contract worth. Yes that is not what I wanted from Pick 3.

Watching how Sauce played is how I formed my opinion. He absolutely shut down his opponent and that should be transferable to NFL for 10 to 12 years in comparison to three maybe four of Derek.
 
badboy said:
think it's sizzle rather than the steak on Stingley
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Doesn’t sound like someone “trying to protect his job.
badboy said:
Watching how Sauce played is how I formed my opinion. He absolutely shut down his opponent and that should be transferable to NFL for 10 to 12 years in comparison to three maybe four of Derek.
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Sounds like plenty of sizzle to me.
 
thunderkyss said:
Doesn’t sound like someone “trying to protect his job.

Sounds like plenty of sizzle to me.
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? Hoping Sting can be squeezed for 2 good years and 2 avg is exactly "protecting your job".

Sounds like you are ignoring that the sizzle is from 2019 before his lisfranc injury. Also let's not forget that he had ankle injuries and a upper injury ... shoulder iirc.
 
badboy said:
? Hoping Sting can be squeezed for 2 good years and 2 avg is exactly "protecting your job".

Sounds like you are ignoring that the sizzle is from 2019 before his lisfranc injury. Also let's not forget that he had ankle injuries and a upper injury ... shoulder iirc.
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Yeah, I reckon Texans front office had no idea about those...😅
 
We’ll all know in a couple years.

I personally don’t want to dump on the Texans or they’re picks, we’ve all been through enough already just need to see some positive gains.

Last year was actually easier because nobody expected much. This year w/each new edition, especially Stingley/HC will have higher expectations. Not sure that is fair, but it is what is. Just give us hope.

:koolaid:
 
badboy said:
? Hoping Sting can be squeezed for 2 good years and 2 avg is exactly "protecting your job".

Sounds like you are ignoring that the sizzle is from 2019 before his lisfranc injury. Also let's not forget that he had ankle injuries and a upper injury ... shoulder iirc.
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Unless they found something wrong with Gardner, that’s the pick if you’re trying to “protect your job”
 
Texansballer74 said:
No what’s dumb is looking at a darn video and trying to make a darn guess at to how much he’s high stepping. I see if you guys are actually there in person. But on a darn video, stop it
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Dumb? Post trauma videos are commonly used by trauma surgeons to evaluate post injury movement abnormalities. It is not unusual to be sent videos for 2nd opinions. Telemedicine commonly uses this approach. Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, UCLA and other respected institutions use the technique. Dr. David Chao has made a living using video interpretation.
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
Dumb? Post trauma videos are commonly used by trauma surgeons to evaluate post injury movement abnormalities. It is not unusual to be sent videos for 2nd opinions. Telemedicine commonly uses this approach. Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, UCLA and other respected institutions use the technique. Dr. David Chao has made a living using video interpretation.
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This was not an up close video to determine any type of post trauma anything. I understand who you are and what you do for a living. The word dumb was used because of an attack by Brisco. Nobody is nitpicking anyone. I just don’t believe in this case you are anyone else can convince me on a percentage of Stingley’s high step. Especially when he did this at his pro day.

The 40-yard dash results headline Stingley's workout, with unofficial times from NFL scouts ranging from 4.40 to 4.44, which would place Stingley in the top 15 among corners at the 2022 NFL Scouting Combine.
"Oh yeah, the 40, I could've run faster than that, but I feel fine. I don't feel any soreness or anything, so I'm good to go," Stingley told NFL Network's James Palmer.
Stingley's reported vertical jump of 38.5 inches was even more impressive and would have placed him fourth among all cornerbacks at the combine, capping an impressive day for the LSU product.

So again I wasn’t calling you dumb.
 
Texansballer74 said:
This was not an up close video to determine any type of post trauma anything. I understand who you are and what you do for a living. The word dumb was used because of an attack by Brisco. Nobody is nitpicking anyone. I just don’t believe in this case you are anyone else can convince me on a percentage of Stingley’s high step. Especially when he did this at his pro day.

The 40-yard dash results headline Stingley's workout, with unofficial times from NFL scouts ranging from 4.40 to 4.44, which would place Stingley in the top 15 among corners at the 2022 NFL Scouting Combine.
"Oh yeah, the 40, I could've run faster than that, but I feel fine. I don't feel any soreness or anything, so I'm good to go," Stingley told NFL Network's James Palmer.
Stingley's reported vertical jump of 38.5 inches was even more impressive and would have placed him fourth among all cornerbacks at the combine, capping an impressive day for the LSU product.

So again I wasn’t calling you dumb.
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For gods sake the man is an MD, you are just digging yourself into a deeper hole.
 
Texansballer74 said:
This was not an up close video to determine any type of post trauma anything. I understand who you are and what you do for a living. The word dumb was used because of an attack by Brisco. Nobody is nitpicking anyone. I just don’t believe in this case you are anyone else can convince me on a percentage of Stingley’s high step. Especially when he did this at his pro day.

The 40-yard dash results headline Stingley's workout, with unofficial times from NFL scouts ranging from 4.40 to 4.44, which would place Stingley in the top 15 among corners at the 2022 NFL Scouting Combine.
"Oh yeah, the 40, I could've run faster than that, but I feel fine. I don't feel any soreness or anything, so I'm good to go," Stingley told NFL Network's James Palmer.
Stingley's reported vertical jump of 38.5 inches was even more impressive and would have placed him fourth among all cornerbacks at the combine, capping an impressive day for the LSU product.

So again I wasn’t calling you dumb.
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I'm not here to convince you of anything. I have offered observations, potential counters for his "impressive" Pro Day performances, and well-established histories of "recovery" from the injury in question. You are certainly entitled to look past any or all of these. I appreciate your sketicism.

Again, in the end, it is my hope that he is able to overcome the established "odds."
 
All players coming out of the draft are unknown quantities until they hit the NFL field. Anyone can be boom or bust from any position in the draft from the first round to the last.

But buying a new car off the showroom floor that already has dents and scratches on it makes no sense. Unless you just really want that car, which seems to be the case here.
 
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