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State of the O-line

steelbtexan said:
I get what your saying.

But they need to find a starting LT or atleast a RT and getting the best player you can to protect Watson is what I would do. Also if you can add a stud CB you should trade up and get him. Like you said it all depends on how the draft falls. But adding 2 stud players in these positions is worth losing a Coutee/Mack/Reid. We just have different philosophies. Give me an OT like Dawkins and a CB like White from Buffalo to start as rookies. (I'm using the Buffalo guys since Gaine was there when these guys were drafted.) If you've gotta trade up to get these guys depending on how the draft falls you do it.

Gotta do everything possible to not have Watson taking 62 sacks next yr and find a young CB that can do a much better job of covering the top WR's. You know the type of CB Ricky thought he was drafting when he drafted KJo.

Good times are ahead.
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Or they could improve the inside triangle and nobody would worry about the outside rush. As long as Watson isn't getting heat inside , he's ok. The coach also needs to give him quick easy, and early completions.
 
leebigeztx said:
Or they could improve the inside triangle and nobody would worry about the outside rush. As long as Watson isn't getting heat inside , he's ok. The coach also needs to give him quick easy, and early completions.
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True and that's what they tried to do with last yrs FA signings. It didn't work because of injuries to Fulton/Kelemete and Davenport being so bad. I agree with the quick completions, but that's hard to do when only 2/3 guys are sent out on routes because the OL was so bad.
 
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steelbtexan said:
Or the fact that he had to escape the rush.

The broken ribs/punctured lung had something to do with some of the changes in the offense. BOB's changes i the offense worked, Watson came out of the yr healthy which is all I was really hoping for considering the state of the OL and the injuries to the WR corps. Do you think throwing to 2 rookie UDFA WR's could've also contributed to Watson holding the ball longer?
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BS he changed it before the season started.
 
steelbtexan said:
I agree with the quick completions, but that's hard to do when only 2/3 guys are sent out on routes because the OL was so bad.
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But isn't that the whole point of the quick completions, to hide the fact your OL isn't very good? The tackles typically cut block, and the guards/centers just have to hold on for 1-2 seconds. If our OL can't simply execute that, then we have 8-9 guys that don't even deserve to be in the league.
 
JB said:
Did he really? I didn't notice much change the first 3 games
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You don’t remember a lot of people being pissed off when he announced that he was changing it up since he had a whole offseason to work with Watson? Me and a lot of people were pissed. Why would you change up something that was working so well. He was basically saying he was going back to his original offense since he had time to teach it to Watson.


steelbtexan said:
Due to Watson coming off of an ACL.
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Says who? I never heard that!
 
dream_team said:
But isn't that the whole point of the quick completions, to hide the fact your OL isn't very good? The tackles typically cut block, and the guards/centers just have to hold on for 1-2 seconds. If our OL can't simply execute that, then we have 8-9 guys that don't even deserve to be in the league.
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The offense was special when he designed it specifically for Watson with plays similar to what he was familiar with at Clemson. And he used a lot of motion among other things to get guys open quickly. The OL didn’t look that bad when Watson was tearing it up his first few games.

But butt chins ego got in the way and he wanted HIS offense that he’s had back.
 
Says who? I never heard that![/QUOTE]

It makes perfect sense to not run the Clemson offense, (Which is basically what they ran Watsons rookie season when he tore his ACL) with Watson coming off an ACL.

I consider last season a success because Watson is going into this offseason healthy despite playing behind the worst pass blocking OL in the NFL. (The run blocking wasn't any kind of great shakes.) 62 sacks later.
 
mussop said:
The offense was special when he designed it specifically for Watson with plays similar to what he was familiar with at Clemson. And he used a lot of motion among other things to get guys open quickly. The OL didn’t look that bad when Watson was tearing it up his first few games.

But butt chins ego got in the way and he wanted HIS offense that he’s had back.
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Exactly, but some here like steel don't seem to acknowledge that. Sure Davenport needs to get better but 2018 was basically his rookie season and then he is moved during first game to RT which failed. Then vet LG Kelemete was hurt and in/out, week five Watson punctures lungs and that impacts OLine. Does anyone think #4 felt 100 % confident in his second ACL recovery his first few games in 2018? I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.
 
badboy said:
Exactly, but some here like steel don't seem to acknowledge that. Sure Davenport needs to get better but 2018 was basically his rookie season and then he is moved during first game to RT which failed. Then vet LG Kelemete was hurt and in/out, week five Watson punctures lungs and that impacts OLine. Does anyone think #4 felt 100 % confident in his second ACL recovery his first few games in 2018? I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.
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So b/c he didn’t have anymore false starts as the season wore on means he was getting better? Lol...Ok..but I’m pretty sure DW4’s body and sack totals for the year disagree with this “improvement”.
 
mussop said:
You don’t remember a lot of people being pissed off when he announced that he was changing it up since he had a whole offseason to work with Watson? Me and a lot of people were pissed. Why would you change up something that was working so well. He was basically saying he was going back to his original offense since he had time to teach it to Watson.
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Yeah I know he said he was changing it, but I don't recall seeing much difference the first 3 games
 
Carr Bombed said:
The biggest change was the RPO became almost nonexistent, despite Watson having so much success with it his rookie season.. it wasn't the same offense we ran during Watson's rookie season.
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Agreed

Why do you think BOB would change something that was obviously working?

ACL/Punctured Lung/Broken Ribs?
 
steelbtexan said:
Agreed

Why do you think BOB would change something that was obviously working?

ACL/Punctured Lung/Broken Ribs?
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ACL/Punctured Lung/Broken Ribs all happened after BOB said he was going to change the offense. So as usual, I think there's more nuance to this than any one storyline. We'll never know what the offense would have looked like without the injuries to W, but BOB was clear he was changing it. I'm actually in favor of less RPO once the OLine is fixed. I do want to keep it in the playbook and bring it out in big games when W's legs are a difference maker with the season on the line. I can see Watson being Vince Young vs USC in a Super Bowl.
 
leebigeztx said:
What about the last game vs Jaguars? Why did he turn Watson into Earl Campbell?
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I dont know I certainly wouldn't have had him running those plays. I'm guessing that he was healthy. Maybe BOB was trying to get that play on tape for the Jags.
 
mussop said:
The offense was special when he designed it specifically for Watson with plays similar to what he was familiar with at Clemson. And he used a lot of motion among other things to get guys open quickly. The OL didn’t look that bad when Watson was tearing it up his first few games.

But butt chins ego got in the way and he wanted HIS offense that he’s had back.
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Exactly, but some here like steel don't seem to acknowledge that. Sure Davenport needs to get better but 2018 was basically his rookie season and then he is moved during first game to RT which failed. Then vet LG Kelemete was hurt and in/out, week five Watson punctures lungs and that impacts OLine. Does anyone think #4 felt 100 % confident in his second ACL recovery his first few games in 2018? I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.
Mr teX said:
So b/c he didn’t have anymore false starts as the season wore on means he was getting better? Lol...Ok..but I’m pretty sure DW4’s body and sack totals for the year disagree with this “improvement”.
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And which were caused after game 9 by Davenport? Unless you can identify that, you don't know. Blame for what he didn't do, but credit what he did.
 
Max said:
ACL/Punctured Lung/Broken Ribs all happened after BOB said he was going to change the offense. So as usual, I think there's more nuance to this than any one storyline. We'll never know what the offense would have looked like without the injuries to W, but BOB was clear he was changing it. I'm actually in favor of less RPO once the OLine is fixed. I do want to keep it in the playbook and bring it out in big games when W's legs are a difference maker with the season on the line. I can see Watson being Vince Young vs USC in a Super Bowl.
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He was coming off of the ACL and I'm hoping that's the reason BOB changed the offense. Still the QB's that win championships or for that matter make it to the SB have to win from the pocket even if they do run on occasion
 
badboy said:
Exactly, but some here like steel don't seem to acknowledge that. Sure Davenport needs to get better but 2018 was basically his rookie season and then he is moved during first game to RT which failed. Then vet LG Kelemete was hurt and in/out, week five Watson punctures lungs and that impacts OLine. Does anyone think #4 felt 100 % confident in his second ACL recovery his first few games in 2018? I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.

And which were caused after game 9 by Davenport? Unless you can identify that, you don't know. Blame for what he didn't do, but credit what he did.
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LOL, Davenport doesn't have the feet to play LT and never will. Now we're judging OL play by fewer false starts. Tell me how much help was Davenport given and how did he look when he didn't get help.

Go back and look at the Tacks game at NRG. Watson was miked up and had to pull a Houdini act to get away from the Tacks DE several times. I saw this on HBO's Inside the NFL.
 
steelbtexan said:
LOL, Davenport doesn't have the feet to play LT and never will. Now we're judging OL play by fewer false starts. Tell me how much help was Davenport given and how did he look when he didn't get help.

Go back and look at the Tacks game at NRG. Watson was miked up and had to pull a Houdini act to get away from the Tacks DE several times. I saw this on HBO's Inside the NFL.
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Yes judging an OT involves looking at penalties and when they occur. You don't get that? Same with sacks and D gave up fewer last half. You refuse to address what I say about games at LT first few games, who was LG. Etc. He can and has approved feet/slide. No point discussing with you as you don't offer fair eval.
 
badboy said:
Yes judging an OT involves looking at penalties and when they occur. You don't get that? Same with sacks and D gave up fewer last half. You refuse to address what I say about games at LT first few games, who was LG. Etc. He can and has approved feet/slide. No point discussing with you as you don't offer fair eval.
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I know suck when I see it.

Did you go back and check out the Tacks game? That was one of the late season games you said he's improved in. SMH
 
badboy said:
Exactly, but some here like steel don't seem to acknowledge that. Sure Davenport needs to get better but 2018 was basically his rookie season and then he is moved during first game to RT which failed. Then vet LG Kelemete was hurt and in/out, week five Watson punctures lungs and that impacts OLine. Does anyone think #4 felt 100 % confident in his second ACL recovery his first few games in 2018? I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.

And which were caused after game 9 by Davenport? Unless you can identify that, you don't know. Blame for what he didn't do, but credit what he did.
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9 games is over 1/2 the season dude & I’m not gonna sit up here and pretend like I could see where all the sacks were coming from late last year. what I will say is that when I think of our o-line play this year, Davenport doesn’t seem to be sticking out in my mind as still not being an issue at times.

The question u need to ask yourself is are u willing to continue to risk DW4’s backside and health on the continued development of Davenport as a starter for next year.

For me, the answer to that question is a definitive HELL NO. At the very least, I want a high draft pick brought in to compete and/or be the heir apparent.

Davenport would have to come in and be pro bowl status next year for me to be comfortable with him as the long term solution at LT. And since I don’t expect for that to happen........
 
badboy said:
I don't and that impacted his OLine. Davenport had five penalties for false start but two in his second and three in his third game and none rest of season. He is getting better.
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OK that's improvement, that's encouraging. Nothing guaranteed, just gotta keep chippin away at it and he's still very young. Afterall only a fourth round pick and was always
expected to be project which usually means considerable time and patience required before any real payoff is realized.
 
I wouldn't risk Watson's health by starting Davenport at LT, but O'Brien has and probably will continue to do so.
 
Not buying into group think and trashing Davenport as future LT. He was drafted as developmental LT, he wasn't ready and nobody should have expected him to be. Thrown into the fire, its been tough, difficult and sometimes overwhelming, but I seem to remember Duane Brown, who was a 1st rd. pick, not a 4th like Julie'n, had tough lessons when also put into starting role sooner than he was ready, turn out ok. With all that said, expect him to continue developing, improving with more continuity across the OL. When I go back and watch tape of Watson @ Clemson you can't help but notice his toughness and resilience. He is giving up his body, play after play and taking a pounding to extend and make plays, don't expect new QB coach to change those instincts, but do expect the ball to come out faster and Davenport with his size and athletic ability can set the edge in pass pro. Texans are headed in the right direction. Really need a stud RT and another OG to improve talent, depth and better pocket.
 
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I've been screaming for an offensive line so long .... if I were in charge of the draft, I would probably draft 4 studs and hope Martin or Mancz could get healthy/improve. The more prudent move really might be to draft 2 studs for the right side and Give Davenport and Rankin, next year to prove that they can or they can't. Steelbtexan, whom I agree with most all the time, is not giving Davenport a chance - doesn't have the feet, and never will . Valid point .... possibly ! IDEXAN, Badboy, and some others, feel like the left side may continue to improve. Any of you guys that played, remember practicing the high-stepping rope drills, especially the backs. I think it may just be possible for the youngsters on the left to use focused - practice on their movement skills. I would love to see them go to LeCharles Bently's camp and see what he can do for them. He would improve them ! Enough ? I don't know .... but I would surely try it .... I would love to see O'Brien secure Bentley .... to advise on drafting a stellar right side. Finally .... invest in a good running back, and maybe a backup QB. I know, I know, DBs, DBs ! .... and too many words .... sorry.
 
infantrycak said:
We need a theme on OL. Doesn't really matter what. OLines prosper when they have an identity. Zone for Terrell Davis, power for Emmitt. It's not the system per se, it's the unit. OB needs to pick and commit.
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I think he may have already decided that he wants both. With Watson they've blocked inside zone about 1/3 (guessing) of the time. The guys he brought in last year blocked inside zone before they came here. We'll see if they continue the trend with who they bring in this year. It's really making short yardage situations tough when our guys can't get any push. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a fullback on the team this year. We missed that last year.
 
infantrycak said:
That's the problem. You can't have both.
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I don't watch enough of the league to know if anyone's doing it well, but several of the college guys I've watched are doing both (Wisconsin and South Carolina and both had 2 of the better OL's). I'd be interested in knowing how many NFL teams are doing this.
 
Max said:
I don't watch enough of the league to know if anyone's doing it well, but several of the college guys I've watched are doing both (Wisconsin and South Carolina and both had 2 of the better OL's). I'd be interested in knowing how many NFL teams are doing this.
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Everyone runs zone "a little bit." Not the commitment at all. Watch Foster highlights and see zone. He feasted on back side plays. Power you need a bowling ball RB. Emmitt hit people. He was the little clock that wouldn't stop. That's what you need for a power game.
 
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Mr teX said:
9 games is over 1/2 the season dude & I’m not gonna sit up here and pretend like I could see where all the sacks were coming from late last year. what I will say is that when I think of our o-line play this year, Davenport doesn’t seem to be sticking out in my mind as still not being an issue at times.

The question u need to ask yourself is are u willing to continue to risk DW4’s backside and health on the continued development of Davenport as a starter for next year.

For me, the answer to that question is a definitive HELL NO. At the very least, I want a high draft pick brought in to compete and/or be the heir apparent.

Davenport would have to come in and be pro bowl status next year for me to be comfortable with him as the long term solution at LT. And since I don’t expect for that to happen........
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Well dude you know that of those 9 he didn't play 1 and some others were at right tackle. He is an issue at times as others on online. As is Watson. Your FA vets also allowed some sacks and none played LT even highly thought of Rankin. Your expectation of LT even with high draft pick is not realistic. Want probowler buy Trent Brown and that is not a lock.
 
IDEXAN said:
OK that's improvement, that's encouraging. Nothing guaranteed, just gotta keep chippin away at it and he's still very young. Afterall only a fourth round pick and was always
expected to be project which usually means considerable time and patience required before any real payoff is realized.
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that's all I'm saying. If we can get a better player at any spot do so. Starters at both tackles may be available for $s we have.
 
badboy said:
Well dude you know that of those 9 he didn't play 1 and some others were at right tackle. He is an issue at times as others on online. As is Watson. Your FA vets also allowed some sacks and none played LT even highly thought of Rankin. Your expectation of LT even with high draft pick is not realistic. Want probowler buy Trent Brown and that is not a lock.
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1st of all, you don't even know what my expectations were for LT...The only caveat i laid out is that i want them higher than where Davenport is currently. My expectations are also very realistic considering a guy like Andrew Whitworth was available in 2017 & went to the rams and the Pats traded for a Trent Brown this past year. Hell, A more polished & stronger high draft pick would likely perform better out the gate than where it has taken Davenport 2 seasons to get to. I also see you didn't answer my question either.

Bottom line, Davenport didn't "improve" so much that he's a guy you continue to wait on to develop at the expense of your franchise qb. If there's an opportunity to improve at the LT position....whether it be with someone with more talent & experience, or just flat out raw talent/upside.... you go after that guy. If Davenport is really improving like you say, he shouldn't have a problem beating said person out.
 
badboy said:
Well dude you know that of those 9 he didn't play 1 and some others were at right tackle. He is an issue at times as others on online. As is Watson. Your FA vets also allowed some sacks and none played LT even highly thought of Rankin. Your expectation of LT even with high draft pick is not realistic. Want probowler buy Trent Brown and that is not a lock.
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"Just fix the OL this offseason" isn't easy. Takes time, smart moves, and continual development of younger guys. Kubiak understood this. I don't think O'Brien does, or at least he isn't competent at it. It was an organizational failure over the last 5 years.
 
Mr teX said:
1st of all, you don't even know what my expectations were for LT...The only caveat i laid out is that i want them higher than where Davenport is currently. My expectations are also very realistic considering a guy like Andrew Whitworth was available in 2017 & went to the rams and the Pats traded for a Trent Brown this past year. Hell, A more polished & stronger high draft pick would likely perform better out the gate than where it has taken Davenport 2 seasons to get to. I also see you didn't answer my question either.

Bottom line, Davenport didn't "improve" so much that he's a guy you continue to wait on to develop at the expense of your franchise qb. If there's an opportunity to improve at the LT position....whether it be with someone with more talent & experience, or just flat out raw talent/upside.... you go after that guy. If Davenport is really improving like you say, he shouldn't have a problem beating said person out.
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You said D would have to be pro bowl--that's not expectation?
 
I'd be fine if the Texans rolled out the following OL for the 2019 season:

STARTERS
LT- Smith (FA)- OT
LG- Rankin- OG / OT
OC- Martin- OC / OG
RG- Fulton- OG / OC
RT- Risner (Draft)- OT / OG / OC

BACKUPS
LT- Davenport- OT
RT- Henderson- OT
RG- Mancz- OC / OG
LG- Kelemete- OG
OC- McCoy (Draft)- OC / OG

That would be my 10 and Depth Chart for 2019. If the Texans pick up another pick or two.....not sure if there's room for another rookie OL. This group would need to get it done for 2019 and depending on the results, that would determine the direction for the 2020 NFL Draft.
 
badboy said:
You said D would have to be pro bowl--that's not expectation?
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Said that tongue in cheek mainly b/c I don't expect that he can get there next year. They don't have time to wait to see if Davenport improves beyond where he is now, they need upgrades at RT, LT and LG NOW.

What i don't want is for them to take your stance of "oh well he did improve towards the end of last year" ................& then proceed to draft "competition" for him in the 4th round or lower & bring in some undrafted reject that basically says "we're going to see if he can continue to improve". Every single position on the o-line should be open for 2019.
 
TheKDog said:
"Just fix the OL this offseason" isn't easy. Takes time, smart moves, and continual development of younger guys. Kubiak understood this. I don't think O'Brien does, or at least he isn't competent at it. It was an organizational failure over the last 5 years.
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It could be the people Smith provided him, or Devlin recommended for Smith to pick. Hopefully it was Smith or they are screwed.
 
TheKDog said:
I wouldn't risk Watson's health by starting Davenport at LT, but O'Brien has and probably will continue to do so.
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All we need is some improvement on the line and the running game will open up more allowing Watson to hand the ball off more often.
justmy2cents said:
I've been screaming for an offensive line so long .... if I were in charge of the draft, I would probably draft 4 studs and hope Martin or Mancz could get healthy/improve. The more prudent move really might be to draft 2 studs for the right side and Give Davenport and Rankin, next year to prove that they can or they can't. Steelbtexan, whom I agree with most all the time, is not giving Davenport a chance - doesn't have the feet, and never will . Valid point .... possibly ! IDEXAN, Badboy, and some others, feel like the left side may continue to improve. Any of you guys that played, remember practicing the high-stepping rope drills, especially the backs. I think it may just be possible for the youngsters on the left to use focused - practice on their movement skills. I would love to see them go to LeCharles Bently's camp and see what he can do for them. He would improve them ! Enough ? I don't know .... but I would surely try it .... I would love to see O'Brien secure Bentley .... to advise on drafting a stellar right side. Finally .... invest in a good running back, and maybe a backup QB. I know, I know, DBs, DBs ! .... and too many words .... sorry.
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Nice list in there.

I dreamed this up last night:-
R1. Andre Dillard OT (Dubbed the most ready to start OL in the Draft)
R2. Juan Thornhill S (2nd Best S in the Draft.)
R2b. Julian Love CB (Solid CB)
R3. Terronne Prescod G (#2 Guard in the Draft - plenty of beef here)
R5. Darrell Henderson RB (Could be the best back in the draft - all round back)
R6. Ryan Finlay QB (Has a pretty release) QB? Absolutely!
R7. Saivion Smith CB (Bama boy with upside.)

That would be a real haul and funnily enough, its feasible.
 
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steelbtexan said:
It could be the people Smith provided him, or Devlin recommended for Smith to pick. Hopefully it was Smith or they are screwed.
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Yes, that's my opinion. We are screwed while O'Brien is here.

My only goal for next season is for Watson to come out of it healthy
 
TheKDog said:
Yes, that's my opinion. We are screwed while O'Brien is here.

My only goal for next season is for Watson to come out of it healthy
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Good thing is we will get to see who's wrong and I dont know if BOB is a SB winning HC but I think he stands to get a fair chance with his personnel guy.
 
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