ensign_lee
Rookie
Oh, and take this for what it is (just a video game), but when you switch Babin from his OLB spot to a DE spot, his rating goes jumps at least 8 points to an overall 94. Something to think about.
Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
I'm sorry, but our DL was fine.
- Thread starter gtexan02
- Start date
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
William.carter said:
Well said.
BradK10
Veteran
And this whole thing about him petitioning to wear #5 IMO shows a little immaturity. It's a f'ing number.
And I think Travis Johnson is set up for a huge year moving back to a 3 tech where he is used to playing.
from a nifty little football site I found...for those of yall not "up to speed" on some of the more technical terms...
(http://football.calsci.com/Positions8.html)
That's TJ in a nutshell.
In the 3-4 he was playing a 4I technique (head up on the OT) or a 4 tech (inside shoulder of OT) and his job was to tie up OL.
And I think Travis Johnson is set up for a huge year moving back to a 3 tech where he is used to playing.
from a nifty little football site I found...for those of yall not "up to speed" on some of the more technical terms...
(http://football.calsci.com/Positions8.html)
That's TJ in a nutshell.
In the 3-4 he was playing a 4I technique (head up on the OT) or a 4 tech (inside shoulder of OT) and his job was to tie up OL.
BigTimeTexanFan
Rookie
Now with the addition of Mario William and TJ on the inside along with R.Smith and Weaver holding the other end spot, you could say that our front line is finally something that resembles NFL quality.
It has been said many times before that games are won and lost in the trenches. Well we sure have had our fair share of losses and we all know how bad our lines have been especially with the lack of pass rush on the defensive side. Hopefully this revamped (and younger) defensive line, maybe our entire defense will look much better
It has been said many times before that games are won and lost in the trenches. Well we sure have had our fair share of losses and we all know how bad our lines have been especially with the lack of pass rush on the defensive side. Hopefully this revamped (and younger) defensive line, maybe our entire defense will look much better
Cincinnatikid
Waterboy
Mario is going to be a freak for sure, but with weaver onthe other side that is a lot of beef for run stopping, and maybe not pass rush. Weaver is by no means a pass rushing end, he is a run stopping end. The problem with this comes when teams want to throw on 1 and 2nd downs, or 3rd and short. The pass rush may not be enough in those situations to have a much improved pass defense. Mario should be a left DE in the NFL, not a RDE, and i think playing these two the majority of the time together may be a problem.
W
whiskeyrbl
Guest
wrestler4life said:
I wouldn't give up on Peek just yet,With all the new players and talentbase growing expect a couple of so-so players to become above average this year.I think Peek is going to be one of those guys.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
I wanted to add one more thing to this thread.
Unlike the offensive line, where you want the same guys in there as much as possible to get consistency, on the defensive line these days, because of the demands on that side of the ball, you want the ability to have a quality rotation of players.
IIRC, one of the reasons why the Cleveland defensive lineman had a much better result in Denver when they moved there is that they were a part of a rotation, and weren't getting gassed by the 4th quarter.
Moving to the 4-3, we were going to be hard pressed for good depth. I feel a whole lot better about our line.
Unlike the offensive line, where you want the same guys in there as much as possible to get consistency, on the defensive line these days, because of the demands on that side of the ball, you want the ability to have a quality rotation of players.
IIRC, one of the reasons why the Cleveland defensive lineman had a much better result in Denver when they moved there is that they were a part of a rotation, and weren't getting gassed by the 4th quarter.
Moving to the 4-3, we were going to be hard pressed for good depth. I feel a whole lot better about our line.
ensign_lee said:
I see your point but I realy dont see the pass rush being a whole lot better than last year if you dont get Williams. Maybe im wrong. Also at this point i dont see Johnson or babin starting. This is how i see our line shaping up.
RE:Williams
DT:Payne and Smith
LE:Weaver
even if our D line was fine, you have to understand, and take into consideration that Denver(Kubiak) does not value a runningback high enough to ever consider as a #1 overall selection. To think Reggie Bush was rated higher than Mario on Kubiaks card is silly.
His card more than likely looked like:
Mario Williams
D'Brick
Vince
Reggie
Mario over D'Brick, simply because he'll be looking to shed a few pounds on the OL anyway, in the near future.
His card more than likely looked like:
Mario Williams
D'Brick
Vince
Reggie
Mario over D'Brick, simply because he'll be looking to shed a few pounds on the OL anyway, in the near future.
edo783
Hall of Fame
IMO, our D-line was going to be at best average. Above average against the run and below average against the pass for an overall of about average. Vertually everyone on this board complaind loudly about the lack of work on either the defnsive or offensive lines for 4 years as the game is won in the trenches and we had nearly zero pass rush. Well guess what, we did and are doing the adult thing. We are fixing the trenches and developing the means of a pass rush. Not chassing after the flashy pick, but rather the right pick. I to was looking forward to watching Reggie stop on a dime and give 9 cents change, but this is the right thing for the team to actually succeed now and in the future.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
You know a Mercedes is really not as good of a car as a Lexus . If you ask though most people think its the best because of their name .
TheOgre
All Pro
Bobo said:
I like Williams. I just think the team might still need a new RB in the future. Despite how well Mike Anderson and Tatum Bell did last year, I thought their rushing attack was more fierce with Portis. They made a great trade because of the value they got (Champ and Tatum Bell). I'd do that same trade again. However, if I were them, I would upgrade over Bell.
The same is true for the Texans. DD is fine, but you could scare the heck out of a team if you had a back that could bust it long. Next year should be about fixing the secondary and possibly upgrading the RB position. LB will possibly be a need position as well.
[[Gary Kubiak]] said:
I stopped reading YOUR post when you proved that were too short-sighted to realize that WE SWITCHED DEFENSIVE SCHEMES!!!! AHHH, this board makes me so frustrated. Why do people not realize that players chaning positoins WILL CHANGE THEIR PERFORMANCE! Thanks for your medical opinion on my sanity Gary Kubiak, but heres my opinion: You clearly don't understand how coaching and schemes affect football. You must go by player ratings independently of anything else (which is fine, bc with madden+fantasy football a lot do this).
So let me educate you on this one. The Texans switched from a 3-4(!!!) to a 4-3(!!!) defense. This means that instead of having 3 down lineman occupying blockers (this is why ray lewis was pissed, bc his lineman couldn't occupy blockers) and 4 linebackers, one of which is supposed to rush the passer, we now have 4 down lineman trying to penetrate the backfield and 3 linebackers dropping into coverage or stuffing the run. Why does this matter? Let me tell you:
In the 3-4 our line consisted of Smith playing DE (he isnt fast enough to rush around the corner), and TJ playing DE (he played DT in college and couldn't get used to not attacking the QB). Our new line would have looked like this:
A)Babin at DE (This would IMPROVE his play bc in college he was a pass rushing monster, and by limiting his role to hit the QB, he would have excelled. He had a lot of problems identifiying holes the DL was making for him in the 3-4 and couldn't react fast enough to get by the OTs. In the 4-3, you simply attack and rely on speed from the weak side DE position, something that Babin has proven he CAN do in college)
B)TJ, Smith, and Payne at DT. All three of these guys were originally touted as DT. Smith and Payne are run stuffing hole pluggers, while TJ was great at penetrating the gap and attacking the QB. Switching back to their native positions will again, IMPROVE our OL
C)Weaver at DE. He was a starter on the Ravens 3-4 DE and was a fantastic run stuffer. Switching to the 4-3 he should continue to excel in this role (he better, we paid him 13million guaranteed!!).
SO my point? Our DL SUCKED last year (31st, ouch!), but by switching to the 4-3 (read the players comments about this) and adding key personel (Babin to DE, Weaver to DE, Peek to DE, Kalu to DE, TJ to DT) we WOULD have improved. We didn't need Williams to improve. Sure he is an upgrade, but that upgrade would have been better spent (54 million!?!) elsewhere. Now our DL consists of: Weaver, Williams, Payne, (HUGE contracts) TJ and Babin (1st round picks!), Smith (big contract) and Peek (HUGE potential who will never see the field). That is a lot of talent and money going to waste because of this pick
PS: Why can people say that coaching will improve our offense, but when I say our DL will be improved by coaching, people start throwing out DSM diagnoses. Richard Smith + Kubiak + improved OL coaching would all have improved our DL regardless of additions. Loss of Capers alone would have inspired our boys
TheOgre said:
I think Rod's base salary is something like $3.4 mill........ I don't remember what kind of Bonus he got..... I'm interested to see what Javon Walker got also.... They've never had a "big time" reciever in Denver. The QB is the key, protect him, and get to him....... everything revolves around what the QB does.
Honoring Earl 34 said:
I get your point, bad analogy though....... a lexus may be better than the "cheaper" more affordable Mercedes, but there is so much new engineering and inovation in a Mercedes, that it's worth the premium over a Lexus... which just a nice Toyota.....
TheOgre said:
You're right..... first things first though. It starts on the line. which may take years to get to where it needs to be. Reggie is going to be running his but off in N.O. for nothing... they won't go anywhere, until they fix that OLine(can't believe I'm saying this about another team). There D looks good, so I can see the Saints doing something next year...... but if they don't do something to get some young guys to replace those old men on their line, in next years draft, then forget about them for a few years.
gtexan02 said:
gtexan02 said:
I don't know what it is you're getting at. Where else did you want to spend that money?? Runningback?? or OLine??
Look when these guys thought we were going to draft Reggie, they all said the same thing as you....... going to a 4-3 is going to help..... Weaver is a plus..... Kalu should add depth, more options, and a better rotation.
Kubiak made his decision..... Mario..... (which if you ask me, was the only real choice he had).... and everyone is now saying...... you know that really does make more sense. Because it does.
No matter how you try to look at it, our backfield was better, and more productive than our D-Line, or our pass rush. the only person we added to that line, was Weaver..... and he's not a pass rusher.
Tell you what..... I gaurantee you we will have a 1000+ yard season out of DD in 2006. and if he gets hurt, we'll still have over 1000 yards rushing. Expect us to have 1800 yards rushing as a team. that's what we had in 2005 overall, a bad year for our team. That's what we had in 2004, and we had 1600 yards in 2003. So we have good solid evidence that we will have 1800 rushing yards in 2006. Everything we've done so far has been to improve our team...... we should get better at running the ball.
We had no pass rush in 2005, 2004, 2003, or 2002........ adding Weaver does not change that. Sure we can tell ourselves that we'll have more sacks, QB hurries and what not in 2006, but we can't be going into a season with hopes and dreams, with no evidence to support them.
BigTimeTexanFan
Rookie
The sme can be said of Reggie bush, Vince Young, (insert any other rookie). It doesn't matter how great a college player is, they are all "projects".
William.carter
Waterboy
gtexan02 said:
So tell me what scenario you can come up with where the Texans trade down to pick up extra picks and are 100% certain that they still get their man. I'm not trying to attack you or your opinion. In fact I consider your point of view in every post of yours I read, but if the Texans feel like Williams is their guy, How can they trade down and know that they will get him? NO had him #2 on their hit list and would have snatched him up in a second.
So say you trade down with the Jets to get him and you pick up both their first rounders and a 2nd or 3rd. You'd have to give both of the 1st round picks to NO to trade back up to make sure they didn't take Williams theirselves. So what's the point, moving down 1 spot for an extra 3rd round pick? In the grand scheme of things the Texans trading down could have only been a benefit to New Orleans.
Bearfan Blue and Orange
Waterboy
gtexan02 said:
We were not the only teams that had Williams a #1 Pick. It was a toss up as far as talent between Bush and Williams. Williams was the best pick for the TEAM for the direction they need to go. It just so happens Houston had the #1 pick and noone to trade down with 1 spot to get Williams. If Houston took bush, NOLA would have taken Williams.
Williams is not going to "help improve" the defensive line, HE JUST SOLIDIFIED THE D-LINE.
Think about this for a minute. Williams lines up at DE on the Left, opposing Oline has to make sure they get to him leaving others open to the QB, Williams then moves to the DE Right side, same thing, Now he lines up at DT. The QB of the opposing team is freaking out because he does not know what direction he is coming from.
That, my friendly fan, is what Williams is bringing to this team!!! A threat from all directions and mismatched blocking assignments.
Kube already said he will be used at all 4 positions on the line. Wanna have some fun...
You can now put him at DT and now you have 3 or 4 pass rushing run stopping fast big guys on the front four. Not to shabby!!!
William.carter said:
I think I may have confused my point again (I have trouble posting clearly on messageboards because you can't have inflections, etc). Anyways, here was what I was saying: A) I love Williams because I think he'll be amazing, but B) I don't think the Texans needed him, and C) I don't think he was #1 material anway
No, it wasn't fine. Did you watch games last season? We were 32nd against the run. Larry Johnson and Shawn Alexander, while both good running backs, EMBARRASSED US ON NATIONAL TV! You can blame coaching for the lack of offensive production, but when guys are dominating you on the ground, that is simply because of the lack of talent, not schemes.
Peek and Babin are OVERRATED! Your average NFL fan has no idea who these guys are. And why would they? These guys are talked about so much yet they have done so little for us. We need Mario.
Peek and Babin are OVERRATED! Your average NFL fan has no idea who these guys are. And why would they? These guys are talked about so much yet they have done so little for us. We need Mario.
Cincinnatikid
Waterboy
phan1 said:
They have done little because of the horrible react scheme they were in. THey were not allowed to play like a OLB or DE on any other team. Fangio made them sit and wait to see what they were going to do next instead of knowing before the snap. They have much more potential than they were allowed to show.
Cincinnatikid said:
That's not entirely true..... in our 3-4, the LBs, are supposed to read the line, much like a runningback does in a zone blocking scheme. Our biggest problem, was that our down linemen didn't buy into the system, and weren't playing like they were supposed to. We weren't asking our LBs to do anything other 3-4 teams weren't doing. We were not as aggressive as we should've been, and that's why Peek and Babin don't have a gazillion sacks.
As an OSLB in a 3-4, Peeks responsibilities were to attack the line, contain the run, and at times provide coverage....... The difference, going into a 4-3, is that he'll be asked to provide pass coverage a lot less, but with his size, & experience in coverage, he gives the coaches something to work with that he might not have with other linemen.
But in a 4-3, he's going to go head's up with the Offensive tackles.... more times than not, these guys will outweigh him by 50-60 pounds. He's fast, compared to these guys, but they only need to step aroung an "arc", while he has to run all the way around them. Unless he is incredibly strong for his size, don't expect him to bullrush anyone, or swim through an offensive line, or do the Reggie White club on anyone but a tightend.
Peek is more of a big linebacker, Where Babin is more of a small DE.
LIke I've said before, He's been my favorite Linebaker of our bunch, but if anyone is the odd man out, it's him. He's the most explosive, high energy aggresive guy we've had in our 3-4..... but in a 4-3, I can think of other LBs I'd rather keep... I can think of other Linemen I'd rather keep..... I see a spot for him on this team, but I don't think it is ideal for him.
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
gtexan02 said:
FWIW, Kubiak yesterday said that it would be wrong to tell Richard Smith to run a 4-3 but make him do it with mostly personnel suited to a 3-4. That he had to get him more playmakers on the defensive side of the ball.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Good post. I agree and I think Peek needs to be traded somehow, but Kubiak has mentioned using Williams on the inside and putting Babin/Peek at the RDE position on 3rd and long (6 or more), so who knows. Maybe Peek stays just for that and as a backup LB and Babin goes or maybe Babin stays for that and as a backup RDE and Peek goes. Babin is bigger, but Peek is faster. How fast and small do you want to be at RDE on 3rd and long? I think Mario is exactly what we need at RDE on 3rd and Long anyway myself. Mostly, I really don't think they should both stay.
HJam72 said:
when all you've got is speed, it won't be too hard to take him out of the equation. He's got to play next to Robaire Smith, and Robaire has got to dominate his position, where the tackle has to help, leaving Peek one on one with a tight end..... or working stunts....
I'm not trying to get rid of Peek, just trying to be realistic. I don't think he, or Babin will be going anywhere, I'm just saying Peek would be a star in a real 3-4, if he could be taught to play smart. We don't have a lot of players that fit the 3-4, but Antwan is definitely one who does.
Cincinnatikid
Waterboy
thunderkyss said:
Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway. I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.
I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.
Which proves my point.Cincinnatikid said:
1) he can't beat them
2) the downlinemen weren't doing their job
3) Antwan wasn't doing his job
I don't watch much college football. But I doubt he was playing the big athletic Tackles you see in the NFL. If he was bullrushing tackles in college, that tackle more than likely didn't make it to the NFL.Cincinnatikid said:
I'd like to see how much weight he gains, and what that does to his speed/strength...... how much of a trade off. But at his size last year, there's no way he brings anything to the DE position but speed. I said he was outweighed by 50-60 pounds earlier, but it's more like 60-90lbs.
If he is happy about going to a 4-3..... if he brings the energy and aggresion he has in the past...... and if he's determined to make a difference, I'm all for him being a Houston Texan. I'd more than likely root for him, as much as I will for Mario(to get the numbers and shut up the critics).
Cincinnatikid said:
& I prefer a 3-4 defense to a 4-3.... much less reliant on raw physical talent, and relies more on smarts, and fitting the system. Forget about match ups, and devise schemes to give you your advantage. But it takes longer to learn.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Quote from Cincinattikid:
***************************************************************
Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway. I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.
I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.
*****************************************************************
I come to this site more to learn (and make stupid comments)
than anything else, but you people confuse the **** outta me!
***************************************************************
Most of the time last season Peek was one on one with the LT anyway. I would also have to argue that he has some strength to do more than a simple speed rush. Its been stated he has gotten even bigger and stronger already this season. He is going to be similar in size to Freeny, so the issue is really just applying his skills to DE. Now that he may be back at DE he will be able to go back to his old moves from college. He has some strength because in college i saw use a simple bull rush and was able to pancake the Tackles, obviously they arent NFL tackles but still has the strength.
I do agree he would be a star in a real 3-4, but I also think he can be effective in the 4-3.
*****************************************************************
I come to this site more to learn (and make stupid comments)
than anything else, but you people confuse the **** outta me! 
amazingandre
Rookie
Honestly there is nothing more to say than our dl SUCKED last year!!!!! We gave up more passes and td's than any other team. And as i recall we had the worse record? right? the offense may not have scored, but they didn't give up td's the defense did. Our whole d except a few players need to be dealt with. so stop *****in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and deal with MW
amazingandre said:Honestly there is nothing more to say than our dl SUCKED last year!!!!! We gave up more passes and td's than any other team. And as i recall we had the worse record? right? the offense may not have scored, but they didn't give up td's the defense did. Our whole d except a few players need to be dealt with. so stop *****in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and deal with MW
Please read the previous posts before posting. Our DL was possibly the worst in the league last year, yes, but a lot of that was because of injuries (GW), Motivation (TJ), and players being out of positiong (Smith, Johnson, Walker, etc). We added a stuffer in Weaver, and put Babin and Peek back at their natural position, thus CHANGING our DL, thus making it FINE. It wasnt fine last year, the topic title means it WOULD HAVE BEEN fine.
CoastalTexan
Waterboy
I just wanna see us be aggressive and hit some QB's and RB's in the backfield. I can just picture TJ and Peek goin crazy after they level some poor Qb (insert name). Then we get a 15 yard penalty against us, but hey... its just entertainment right?
gtexan02 said:
I just have to point out that over the last several games last season, we had Babin up on the line playing a 43 DE. He did decent, but in no way was he something to write home about. I remember a lot of posters ripping the FO a new one for signing Weaver b/c posters didn't think to highly of him. The truth is, we have no real clue how well our DL would have been without MW this year unless injury occurs (knock on wood). Relax and wait for what's to come.