Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I do NOT want a CLONE of anyone including Brady. I want a stand on his own merits QB for the Texans who will always make the opponent dread ANY time on the clock when the ball is in his hands. That is all.
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Chronicle: The Mallett/Hoyer Competition
- Thread starter Marcus
- Start date
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
CONTEXT is important. If you're constantly behind and trying to get your team back in the game, you take more chances and SHOULD. Of course it will lead to a higher turnover rate than a QB sitting on a lead and only throwing safe passes. Numbers are useful, but they must be PART of the evaluation, not the start, middle and end of them.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Also gives you a hint of how a QB under pressure reacts.
Folks keep throwing those numbers around. Remind me, were they in THIS offense, with this coaching staff? Or do you think QB performance is independent of system/coaching staff? If it is, what the heck is a "system QB"?
I still believe that best season Fitz had was fool's gold. He had Foster returning to form coupled with Watt having his best season ever. If we had a decent qb, we would have won at least 10 games.
Fitz looked horrible most of the time in my opinion.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
This is Mallett's job to lose...
1) He's bigger/taller, stronger armed,
2) he has spent his entire professional career in this offense,
3) with the OC George Godsey as his personal QB coach,
4) he's not had the injuries that Hoyer has had (ACL, shoulder),
5) and opposed to some urban myths he's plenty smart.
6) He's obviously confident, since he chose to sign/compete against a guy with whom he has good familiarity. (Would start for Jets, too.)
Situationally, you couldn't ask for a better hand. Pads on, Mal is up.
Had Mallett been here for OTAs/training camp in 2014, imo, Fitzpatrick would have only seen the field due to injury.
1) He's bigger/taller, stronger armed,
2) he has spent his entire professional career in this offense,
3) with the OC George Godsey as his personal QB coach,
4) he's not had the injuries that Hoyer has had (ACL, shoulder),
5) and opposed to some urban myths he's plenty smart.
6) He's obviously confident, since he chose to sign/compete against a guy with whom he has good familiarity. (Would start for Jets, too.)
Situationally, you couldn't ask for a better hand. Pads on, Mal is up.
Had Mallett been here for OTAs/training camp in 2014, imo, Fitzpatrick would have only seen the field due to injury.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Good point. They were not in THIS offense. They were in an offense with a reputation for being QB friendly with an OC who just got named one of the best in the NFL. Wait, your point was?
Last time Hoyer was in THIS offense, he lost his job to Mallett. At least according to a man with 4 rings using THIS offense.
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Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
It definitely is PART of the evaluation.
DX-TEX
#TomSavageDontCare
Completely agree. National people and lots of local media keep saying it is Hoyers job because what they paid him (more than Mallet) but that is what current vet back ups are making in the league.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
No it's not.
Hoyer $5.2
Fitzpatrick $3.25
Sanchez $3.7
Hasselbeck $3
Schaub $2
Ponder $2.25
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Rank these backups in their perceived ability as of opening day of the 2015 season. It looks pretty much in line to me. There is also a difference between making spot starts as a backup and being able to step in through the end of a season and into playoffs.
Hoyer is a classic tweener. It's AAAA in baseball. He's proven he's ready, but not yet proven he belongs and much like Mallett, just needs the opportunity with a competitive team to see if he belongs. We are very near to having three in this category and any one or all three may make the jump. Or all three could be career backups. It's really just a matter of finding out who gets the opportunity and who seizes it, if any.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Can you whiff any harder on following a conversation?
That's exactly the point - the Texans perceive him as worth more than typical backup money.
We once hired a backup with for about $2 mil and people lost their minds about the waste.
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Last time we hired a back-up for more than 2 million he ended up starting.
I'm preparing myself to see Hoyer start this season and I don't think he is any better than Fitz.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Carl Sagan showing the detriment of drawing conclusions:
I can't see the surface of Venus.
Why not?
Because it is covered with a dense layer of clouds.
Well, what are clouds made of? Water of course.
So therefore there must be a lot of water on Venus.
Therefore, the surface is wet.
Well, if the surface is wet than it must be a swamp.
If there is a swamp there has to be ferns.
If there are ferns maybe there are even dinosaurs.
Observation: You couldn't see a thing.
Conclusion: Dinosaurs
I can't see the surface of Venus.
Why not?
Because it is covered with a dense layer of clouds.
Well, what are clouds made of? Water of course.
So therefore there must be a lot of water on Venus.
Therefore, the surface is wet.
Well, if the surface is wet than it must be a swamp.
If there is a swamp there has to be ferns.
If there are ferns maybe there are even dinosaurs.
Observation: You couldn't see a thing.
Conclusion: Dinosaurs
Hervoyel
BUENO!
There are coaches and OC's (and many of them) who neither of these guys ever played for who could sit down with the available information and film and make a decision right now and start training camp working on the guy he was going to war with. Why OB and Godsey haven't already done this I do not understand.
My one faint hope is that this is nothing more than a tactic to push Mallett a bit harder through competition and (another) challenge for the job. I hope (again, it's a faint hope) that the idea is that Mallett will have to win the job (as opposed to getting it handed to him through Fitz failing). Hopefully it's a promise being fulfilled (Hoyer gets a chance to legitimately compete for the job) and for Mallett a motivational technique and nothing more.
I'm prepared to get behind whoever wins the job. Hell I rooted for a team that started Ryan Fitzpatrick at QB. I can support anybody they care to throw out there at this point.
My one faint hope is that this is nothing more than a tactic to push Mallett a bit harder through competition and (another) challenge for the job. I hope (again, it's a faint hope) that the idea is that Mallett will have to win the job (as opposed to getting it handed to him through Fitz failing). Hopefully it's a promise being fulfilled (Hoyer gets a chance to legitimately compete for the job) and for Mallett a motivational technique and nothing more.
I'm prepared to get behind whoever wins the job. Hell I rooted for a team that started Ryan Fitzpatrick at QB. I can support anybody they care to throw out there at this point.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
Those snap decisions always work out for the best, don't they. I don't understand why everyone is afraid of competition? The decision doesn't need to drag on into the regular season, but training camp isn't even under way and the second guessing is in full gale.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
This is the least snap decision around. There are 19 live games of tape. Both coaches have worked with both QBs.
More like snap stupid comment.
Nobody is scared of competition. We're "scared" of poor decision making that can't make an easy decision.
This is Roger Staubach coming out of the Navy in 1969 against Dick Shiner (not made up).
One is a possible star. The other is a "who"?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Even Noll screwed the pooch with this Dick.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Are you still dating that girl with the dog rescue place? She does not approve of that image.
(Any new girl, I sometimes have false memories, must have been loved pets, big hearted, loooooong gone, etc.)
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
It is about the budget. If schaub and his contract were still here, then we dont sign Hoyer to that deal. However, since Hoyer and Mallett cost a combined $9 million and there contracts expire at the same time, we were able to bid high for him... However, part of the deal's structure is the ability to cut him loose without any dead money in 2016... I am sure the higher number was bargained as a counter to what is essentially a one year deal with a team option for year two.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
So your argument is we spent money because we had money?
Still sounds like a dumb reason.0
I walk next door with $20 in my pocket, able to afford spending the whole $20, I don't give them the $20 for a bag of chips.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Well, if the bag of chips is being bid on by others, there are not any better food options available, and your money is capped so that you cant save the remainder of that $20 to use later, then you may.
Scooter
Funky
You can find some pretty good players for 5 mil. In the Chip Kelly thread is a statement from Jimmy Johnson about being aggressive and decisive in your choices vs being too conservative by committee. Hoyer and Mallett is playing it safe in spite of being almost entirely on O'Brien - 'if you have 2 quarterbacks, you have none'. Keeping Andre, a tightend like Jordan Cameron, a lineman like Orlando Franklin, among others could be had for the money we're spending. Keenum's 2-0 under O'Brien and can work practices for minimum wage, I'd rather have him and any solid position addition than just Hoyer.
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You just if'd you're way into [fill in the blank with something other than genius].
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Except you can save the remainder of that $20 to use later by rolling it into next season's cap. It's not like it used to be where if it wasn't spent, it just goes away.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Hoyer can be cut after this season and count 0 against the 2016 cap.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
We will agree to disagree. I have seen enough of an offense built around an aging AJ and Keenum. I am not sure how you can criticize the Texans for not spending efficiently in one sentence and then suggest retaining $17 million a year AJ in the next.
But we already had Fitzpatrick signed for the season. Fitz isn't Bret Favre... or anything to get worked up about, but Hoyer is not an upgrade. There might have been some familiarity with OB, but that was over three years ago, where Fitz practically lived with OB just last season.
I really don't see how this makes any sense, unless OB thinks Hoyer is a significant upgrade & that's the part I'm having trouble seeing.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
This is a 100 percent accurate comment which has nothing to do with my comment (or the one I was replying to).
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
I do think OBrien believes Hoyer is an upgrade for his system... Also, though, I think the Texans werent excited about entering 2015 with a guy who tore his pectoral, backed up by a guy whose shin snapped like a twig.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
An interesting and somewhat curious ranking of backup talent..........Fitzpatrick at #3 and Mallet at #10. Looks like Sessler has already chosen Hoyer as our starter.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Yes. OB thinks Hoyer is a significant upgrade over Fitzpatrick for the Texans. Hoyer's record as a starting QB is 10-7, and he wasn't exactly surrounded by great coaching and a great offense during those starts. Still, OBrien did not go after Hoyer because of his performance in Cleveland. They spent three years working together in New England, which gives him more insight into Hoyer's abilities, weaknesses, work ethic, intangibles, etc... than we could ever understand. I am excited about the offense's potential and am expecting much better QB play this season, because I learned to trust and respect OBrien's judgement last season... and that is what it comes down to.
corytx8
Rookie
Funny that we like to jump on Brian Hoyer for his experience in Cleveland and losing a job to Johnny. Let me remind you guys, that is Cleveland we are looking at Brian's body of work. He went 10-7 in Cleveland of all places. I don't think Tom Brady would turn bring happiness to the factory of sadness to Cleveland. How about we give Hoyer a shot in a organization that is at least on a higher level than Cleveland.
Scooter
Funky
For being a dumpster fire of an organization, Cleveland's roster has been relatively strong the last couple years. A solid line, Cameron at tight end, great defense, and a group of 2nd tier guys at wide receiver. Swap Cameron for Hopkins and add the running game Kubiak built, and you've got the Texans. 55% completions and a negative TD/INT ratio on a team that won a few games is telling me they're almost winning in spite of Hoyer. Going through last years games says about the same - Cleveland's best games came when Hoyer threw for 220 yards and 1TD/0INT. That's not going to take anyone anywhere, he's not going to carry the team, but is firmly able to drag the team down as seen by his scoreless stretch, 2 touchdowns over 6+ games.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Actually the plot line in Cleveland has been that they've built a fairly good roster but have underperformed in large part to QB selection/performance.
None of that string of QBs has gone on to be revealed as a starting gem hidden in the Cleveland clutter.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Ouch! USA Today Sports ranks Texans QB Hoyer last among projected starters
Jaime E. Galvan, KHOU.com
July 17, 2015
HOUSTON – New Houston Texans quarterback Brian Hoyer has not been named the starter yet, but he is already ranked last among projected starters heading into training camp, according to a new set of rankings released by USA Today Sports.
Hoyer will battle returning quarterback Ryan Mallett, who also signed a new contract in the offseason, to see who will be the top signal-caller for the Texans.
According to the scouting report from USA Today Sports:
"The Browns gave Brian Hoyer an extended run behind center and he showed he's nothing more than a journeyman quarterback. His lack of arm strength and accuracy negate his advanced understanding of the game."
The reports ranks Hoyer very poorly in several attributes, especially arm strength.
"Hoyer's arm talent is among the worst in the league, both in terms of strength and accuracy. He cannot drive the ball on perimeter throws and overcompensates for his lack of arm strength on deep balls," the report states.
Hoyer's best attribute seems to be in the intangibles, which is clearly one of the top reasons why he was signed the offseason in the first place.
"Hoyer clearly understands offenses and defenses, even if applying that understanding gives him trouble. When he gets a good pre-snap read, Hoyer knows where to go with the football. Numerous times throughout the game he will check to a play taking advantage of the defense," the report states.
The top two rookies taken in the 2015 NFL Draft are also ranked ahead of Hoyer along with Jacksonville Jaguars starter Blake Bortles, whom the Texans passed on in the 2014 Draft.
accuracy
Hoyer’s lack of accuracy is a product of his poor arm strength and inconsistent footwork. Per Football Outsiders, Hoyer led the league in overthrown and underthrown passes.
Grade: 6.5
arm strength
Hoyer’s arm talent is among the worst in the league, both in terms of strength and accuracy. He cannot drive the ball on perimeter throws and overcompensates for his lack of arm strength on deep balls.
Grade: 6
athleticism
The little athleticism Hoyer had at the start of his career was curbed by a torn ACL in 2013.
Grade: 6.5
pocket presence
When he needs a Plan B, Hoyer breaks down. He rarely gets to his second or third read, hanging on his first look for far too long and fading in the pocket until he decides it’s time to throw it.
Grade: 6.5
field vision
Hoyer does not see the field clearly. He’ll routinely miss defender undercutting routes and doesn’t anticipate openings in the defense — a must for an NFL quarterback.
Grade: 6.5
pre-snap
Hoyer clearly understands offenses and defenses, even if applying that understanding gives him trouble. When he gets a good pre-snap read, Hoyer knows where to go with the football. Numerous times throughout the game he will check to a play taking advantage of the defense.
Grade: 8
The QB situation for the Texans is always a big story going back to the struggles of former starter Matt Schaub, who was eventually traded.
However, the next chapter in the story is far from complete with training camp just around the corner.
Now THIS gets me REAL excited about the possibility of witnessing a "promising" "young" budding caterpillar tranforming into a beautiful....................squashed bug...........
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Honestly, the way he has played the whole Mallett thing, even if does succeed I'm still going to be critical of the handling. And it's going to feel a whole lot more like lucky familiarity rather than genius.
Yeah... the only thing I'm giving him credit for is making Ryan Fitzpatrick the best FA QB this past off season, which leads to my confusion for letting him go & paying more for basically the same thing.
I don't think he ever wanted Mallett here. I haven't seen anything yet that makes me believe he thinks Mallet can be a franchise QB in this league. & the way we keep Savage buried on the depth chart makes me question what he thinks Savage can be.
Wolf
100% Texan
You lost me on that TK.. What makes you think bob didn't want mallet? From reports..the patriots wanted too much for him and one reason we didn't take the bait earlier.
Also why ,if Bill, didn't want him would we still trade for him?
As far as savage. Reading reports or interviews. He was just trying to keep float
Learning this offense so we know he wasn't ready.
Also why ,if Bill, didn't want him would we still trade for him?
As far as savage. Reading reports or interviews. He was just trying to keep float
Learning this offense so we know he wasn't ready.
I believe Godsey wanted him, or someone on the team. I just feel if OB felt Mallett could be more than a Hoyer or Fitzpatrick a second or third round pick wouldn't have been too much.
Then to go all the way to the bye week to start him... the Jags felt good enough about Bortles to start him mid game. They weren't getting what they needed from their starter & threw a rookie to the wolves. Mallett was no rookie & Fitz was struggling way before the bye week.
Just knowing Mallett was allowed to test FA & we didn't even match the other offer & we're throwing more money at Hoyer than anyone in their right mind would.
Look, when all this started I was creating as much spin as anyone to paint Mallett as the next great thing. But we're past that. That season is over & the Texans have shown little confidence in Ryan Mallett.
When the season starts I'll be back to spinning the next great Texans story. I just feel like that spin is going to start with Hoyer under center.
"He’s smart (mallet), and he’s a hard worker, and he understands our system,” O’Brien said, via the Houston Chronicle. “I like the fact that when he wasn’t playing he was really into the game. He listened to every play call on an earpiece. There are a lot of things that make me believe he can be a starter in this league.”
When it's said and done, Mallet will start. Mallet was injured and can be a liability so we needed Hoyer.
Yeah... I know the spin. But actions speak louder than words.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Fitzpatrick was projected as a "good game manager." Hoyer has been projected as a potentially "good game manager." That bothers me, as this gives me the feeling of low expectations. A promising potential franchise starter should have greater expectations placed on him even from the beginning. And if he falls a little short and then becomes a great game manager, that's still a real plus. I'm not sure that I've ever heard OB's or other's comments about Mallet ever try to limit him to a good game manager.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Is Obrien referring to Hoyer as a "game manager?" If that is his attitude and his expectation regarding Hoyer, then I would be somewhat deflated if Hoyer won the starting gig. If other people are saying that about Hoyer, I couldn't care less.
