There's more information to be parsed from that article than just the Gruden love bit.
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Carson Wentz, My #1 QB going into 2015 college season
- Thread starter Texian
- Start date
There's more information to be parsed from that article than just the Gruden love bit.
Shishkabob
All Pro
I know that, but that was the headline of the article that goes on to show how great he is in the film room, but then notes that he still might struggle to make an adjustment to NFL level competition. I like Wentz, if Im Cleveland thats who im going for at #2, but he has a lot of risk to him. Low number starts, he won a lot but against FCS level competition on a team that is an FCS powerhouse.
Just saying Im taking everything I get out of Gruden's QB camp thing with a grain of salt
Right, and the article itself says as much. Kinda thought that was a given.
Shishkabob
All Pro
yea kind of feeling that way about a lot of these media guys nowadays though. QBs get ratings, so it makes sense they bump up and push QBs hard
I still say, if I were Cleveland I'd stay away from a first round QB in this draft. There's always a bit of a Savior complex that goes with a first round QB. There will be pressure to start him & pressure to win. Whether it's two years from now or three years from now. It would be unfair, imo to put a rookie in that situation.
I think they would be better off with a guy like Tj Yates, Matt Moore, or Kellen Clemens & focus on winning as a team. Then start looking for that franchise QB.
I know most people won't agree with this, "Carson Wentz is a franchise QB."
Not in Cleveland he's not.
Shishkabob
All Pro
the problem with building the team first especially in a place like Cleveland is that when you finally get a QB then, and that QB is ready to win games the team you just spent years building starts to leave and fall apart. Players dont want to stay in Cleveland currently, they are not a winning organization and have no hopes because they have no future under QB. I believe someone like Wentz can not only give their fan base hope, but also their players
Hue Jackson will have to sell his players that they are building something in Cleveland. Same way Kubiak did here. Very few people thought Schaub was ever going to be elite, but we knew he gave us a good chance of winning. Had the Texans drafted Osweiler in 2012, or whoever, instead of putting all our eggs in the lisfranc basket we'd have been better off.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Lets face it Schaub provided a lot more hope then Yates, Clemens, or Moore offer
Maybe so. Then Cleveland needs to trade for Kaepernick or Ryan Nassib, or Aj McCarron...
But I wasn't all that impressed with Schaub's losing performance with Atlanta before the trade. It wasn't till after I saw him in Kubiak's offense for a few games.
Who knows what Hue Jackson could do with any one of those guys?
Texian
Hall of Fame
You have a valid a point to some degree in that Gruden like all other coaches never bad mouth or dog a player on TV. They just don't do it. Positive and up beat, yes, it makes for good TV and fan satisfaction. To suggest you know better than Gruden is like me saying I have better understanding of Economics than Greenspan or Bernanke. When Gruden evaluated Manziel it was well before most of Johnny's public shenanigans and disappointments with Cleveland. And Gruden's comparisons were strictly related to on field performances. I don't think Gruden ever discussed Manziel's Social lifestyle or compared it once to Brigham Young's great-great-great grandson off the field behavior. Keeping it in perspective!
Shishkabob
All Pro
Idk in the 2014 we needed a QB, we decided to go the continue building the team route instead. We have had more success then Cleveland sure, but we are still not successful, we are still in QB purgatory at least until we can see if Os can be the guy, and if he cant then we are back in the same boat and by then our window will have closed. JJ will be in his 30's or close to it, some key pieces will be gone, and we will then have to find another QB to develop.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Im not saying I know better than Gruden, Im saying i dont take what he says for his network at face value. And Johnny had his off field issues well before he got on Gruden's QB camp. Gruden might not have given his truthful opinion on Manziel during his show. I think thats what the last line of the article is pointing out was how in his QB camp he just shows the positives and not really the negatives
Different opinions I guess. But I was never on board with Brian Hoyer. After seeing what this team could do with Fitz, I'd just as soon drafted Petty or Grayson & let him compete with Savage.
But O'b had an itch to scratch.
Shishkabob
All Pro
I would have loved to have taken Bortles or Garrapolo hindsight now Carr, but its over now. I just think its not only hard to get the right QB, let alone be in position to have a chance to get one. We know with a good team, and no QB you are sitting some where in the middle of the road to high to get one
Texian
Hall of Fame
You have a valid a point to some degree in that Gruden like all other coaches never bad mouth or dog a player on TV. They just don't do it. To suggest you know better than Gruden is like me saying I have better understanding of Economics than Greenspan or Bernanke. When Gruden evaluated Manziel it was well before most of Johnny's public shenanigans and disappointments with Cleveland. And Gruden's comparisons were strictly related to on field performances. I don't think Gruden ever discussed Manziel's Social lifestyle or compared it once to Brigham Young's great-great-great grandson off the field behavior. Keeping it in perspective!
What the article author (Stephen Ruiz) failed to do is keep it in perspective. While Gruden did a fair comparison on field performances and athletic abilities, Gruden did not discuss off the field lifestyles, the author took the liberties to make that notation after the fact. And yes there were a few rumors and red flags there was nothing as egregious as what happened in Cleveland. Just keeping it in perspective, something the author FAILED to do and offered a comment that wasn't really right or fair. Typical press rear view mirror Monday Morning QBing.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Do you ever think that maybe the author never thought very highly of Manziel coming out? I for one didnt have him very high I think they highest I ever got on Manziel was a 3rd or 4th rounder. I didnt see his style of play transitioning well in the NFL, he had a history of being a knuckle head so I questioned his intelligence to transition his game over to what would work. Then his dad coming out talking about his sons problems was pretty damning to me. Im not the only person out there that felt this way, plenty of NFL scouts did, Jaws did as well as some other media members. I dont follow this guys work so I cant speak on his behalf but its not absurd to think that maybe he didnt like Manziel all that much coming out
There was a stretch of drafts where the Patriots would enter the draft with multiple 1st & 2nd round picks. I don't think they ever did anything of consequence with them, but they did a good job of acquiring the capital needed to freely move around the draft & get the players they wanted.
I'd much rather my GM learns to play that game instead of having to tank a season to get a high draft pick.
It's also worth noting Peyton Manning is the only #1 overall to win a Championship in a long time. Heck, he's also the only 1st QB taken to win one.
Andrew Luck didn't win a Super Bowl, Russell Wilson did. Matt Ryan didn't win one, Flacco did. Alex Smith didn't win the Super Bowl, Aaron Rodgers did.
Ok, Eli Manning was the last #1 overall & 1st QB taken to win a Super Bowl, but so did Ben Roethlisberger & he's a better QB.
We passed on Wilson at least twice, traded away the pick that got Flacco, & passed on Aaron Rodgers. No tanking necessary. That 1st QB usually has a lot of unsubstantiated hype around him. Not that he's going to be a bad QB, just sometimes hard to live up to the hype.
Texian
Hall of Fame
No the author went out of his to take a cheap shot at Gruden. And he used Manziel to do it.
Shishkabob
All Pro
how was it a cheap shot? did Gruden not say those things? Is it true that on the show Gruden tends to fall in love with numerous QBs? None of that is a cheap shot just him pointing out that just because Gruden's speaking highly of someone is by no means indicating future stardom. If he had said the same thing over another QB prospect you would be fine with it, but since he said it in an article about your golden boy you call it a cheap shot. News flash its not a cheap shot to use someones own words against them in an argument over their credibility
Not even Gruden's says it should. Gruden's show is for guys like us to get am idea of what it's like to get these guys in an interview & private workout setting. It's only a piece of the information we should use to "analyze" these guys.
Gruden's also usually asks the questions we all want to ask. I'm sure he asked Johnny about his lifestyle choices & I'm pretty sure he gave a canned answer.
Like Texian said though the only thing Gruden's said about Johnny was that the boys got skills. Which was evident to anyone before Gruden's camp.
I don't think he said that someone should take him in the first though. He leaves that for you & me to decide for ourselves.
Texian
Hall of Fame
NFL Network Retweeted
NDSU Athletics @NDSUathletics 2h2 hours ago
2 DAYS. Bison Nation, are you ready for #NDSUProDay! The @nflnetwork will broadcast live from Gate City Bank Field.
NDSU Athletics @NDSUathletics 2h2 hours ago2 DAYS. Bison Nation, are you ready for #NDSUProDay! The @nflnetwork will broadcast live from Gate City Bank Field.
Will Easton Stick be there? That dude looked pretty good. I bet the Bison would have won the FCS Championship with Easton at QB.
Shishkabob
All Pro
Believe Easton was a true freshman
Texian
Hall of Fame
Gil Brandt @Gil_Brandt 38m38 minutes ago
One of the best pro days I've ever witnessed. Wentz reminds me of Joe Flacco. He had 2 55-yard passes that were as pretty as I've seen.
One of the best pro days I've ever witnessed. Wentz reminds me of Joe Flacco. He had 2 55-yard passes that were as pretty as I've seen.
Texian
Hall of Fame
If Wentz recognized a trouble situation, he could spout any play in the book. Additionally, Wentz was required to call out the protection on every pass play, a job for most NFL centers.
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/03/23/nfl-draft-carson-wentz-jared-goff-paxton-lynch
http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2016/03/23/nfl-draft-carson-wentz-jared-goff-paxton-lynch
Was that special for Wentz, or did Brock Jensen & Easton Stick have the same responsibility?
Texian
Hall of Fame
Texian
Hall of Fame
IDK but a QB calling blocking assignments is pretty special, that's Maaningesque.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Wentz lines up perfectly to get drafted by the Cowboys, though they don't want anyone to know that. Titans have Mariota, Browns RG III & Chargers Rivers all QB's drafted in top 5 picks, Wentz going 4th overall touches all the bases, home run.
Hats off to Texian making the call early
(first QB taken).
Hats off to Texian making the call early
(first QB taken).
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
Any chance that Carson Wentz will become a bust? All the reviews and comments I read or see about him (on TV) are very positive, as if it's a "sure thing" he's going to become an All Pro quarterback in the NFL. But as we all know it's never that clear cut and dry. Maybe it is in his case.
I'm willing to bet that Brock Osweiler has a better pro career than Carson Wentz when it's all said and done. Which is why I don't understand why Texian can't just embrace the fact we already landed our franchise quarterback. Brock Osweiler is very special himself, and the risk we're taking isn't as bad as it would have been trading up for Carson Wentz.
Maybe it's just me but I'm just ready to see it all play it. Enough talk, these guys will prove their worth on gamedays.
I'm willing to bet that Brock Osweiler has a better pro career than Carson Wentz when it's all said and done. Which is why I don't understand why Texian can't just embrace the fact we already landed our franchise quarterback. Brock Osweiler is very special himself, and the risk we're taking isn't as bad as it would have been trading up for Carson Wentz.
Maybe it's just me but I'm just ready to see it all play it. Enough talk, these guys will prove their worth on gamedays.
Bulls on Parade
2017 Astros: Earn It!
The Browns are still very likely to draft a quarterback with the second overall pick, and Carson Wentz is their main target, from what I understand. He will sit and learn behind RGIII, who will probably take a beating and get injured behind that new-look and inexperienced Browns offensive line. Especially if they trade Joe Thomas which they are close to doing. So Wentz may be a good bet to be starting for the Browns by Week 5 or 6 during his rookie season.Wentz lines up perfectly to get drafted by the Cowboys, though they don't want anyone to know that. Titans have Mariota, Browns RG III & Chargers Rivers all QB's drafted in top 5 picks, Wentz going 4th overall touches all the bases, home run.
Hats off to Texian making the call early
If I'm Tennessee I'm drooling over this latest evaluation of Wentz as well. Anyone wanting Wentz (San Francisco, Denver, Dallas, Philly, etc...) will have to get in front of Cleveland to get him. Tennessee will be able to trade down, for a small fortune of course, and still be able to take a very good OT in the 1st round.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Wentz lines up perfectly to get drafted by the Cowboys, though they don't want anyone to know that. Titans have Mariota, Browns RG III & Chargers Rivers all QB's drafted in top 5 picks, Wentz going 4th overall touches all the bases, home run.
Hats off to Texian making the call early
Some folks argue against Cowboys taking Wentz but I argue look at Green Bay, they had and will have a franchise HOF QBs for over 20 years consecutive years and that pretty much says there is no argument.
Bulls if I thought the Texans had landed their franchise QB I would embrace him. Like if the Texans had found away to draft Wentz I would embrace him as our franchise QB. And if Wentz has a HOF career 3 1st draft picks is dirt cheap to pay to get him on your team.
The difference is that the Packers were expecting Bret to move on. They weren't trying to build a Super Bowl team around Favre, they were building that team for the guy after Favre.
If they do draft Wentz, then I'll accept everything Jerrah had said as lies. If they don't, I'll take that to mean they still believe in Romo & are counting on him to be there for the next 3 or 4 years.
Texian
Hall of Fame
There is no difference, then like now Bret Farve was 36 when they drafted Rodgers and Tony Romo will be 36 in the season Wentz will be drafted. The point everyone seems to miss (tunnel vision) is in 2030 the Cowboys could have another 36 year HOF QB who has playing for the Cowboys for 14 years. If the Cowboys do not draft Wentz, come 2018 every Cowboy fan will be mad as hell they didn't.
I think there's a huge difference. The Packers didn't believe in the all time leader in Ints & the Cowboys still believe in Romo.
A couple of points I think you're missing is that nobody knew who Carson Wentz was last year. He popped up out of nowhere this year, someone else will pop up next year & someone else in 2018.
The Cowboys may decide to sit & wait for Easton Stick.
The other point I think you're missing is Aaron Rodgers was taken with the 24th overall pick. Joe Flacco, Aaron Rodgers, Andy Dalton have been more productive than QBs taken in the top half of the first round.
& lastly, just because the Cowboys don't take him, he'll still probably be the first QB taken. Maybe San Francisco, maybe the Rams, Maybe the Jets.it doesn't make him any less a QB or prospect, it's just a reflection of need & perception. Someone may very well trade with the Cowboys to get him at 4.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Even if oz turns out to be average or better then average i think we should've embraced a simple qb strategy a long time ago:
Every 2-3 seasons we should be investing a 4th round pick or better at quarterback. We'd have steady talent at both back up quarterback spots, a better safety net against injuries, leverage against a qb demanding a cap killing salary, and very tradeable commodities.
Hell we traded bad Schaub and Casey K for picks. We might be able to move Hoyer now because of how desperate teams are. Imagine what we could demand in trade right now if we had a competent back up quarterback.
I really don't care if our offensive philosophy is to rely on scheme and not a superstar quarterback. Other teams don't operate that way and we should be able to exploit it.
I'm tired of Dante 's inferno #10 with no quarterback.
Every 2-3 seasons we should be investing a 4th round pick or better at quarterback. We'd have steady talent at both back up quarterback spots, a better safety net against injuries, leverage against a qb demanding a cap killing salary, and very tradeable commodities.
Hell we traded bad Schaub and Casey K for picks. We might be able to move Hoyer now because of how desperate teams are. Imagine what we could demand in trade right now if we had a competent back up quarterback.
I really don't care if our offensive philosophy is to rely on scheme and not a superstar quarterback. Other teams don't operate that way and we should be able to exploit it.
I'm tired of Dante 's inferno #10 with no quarterback.
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beerlover
Hall of Fame
Major difference to me is that Romo went undrafted & took 10 plus years to develop into a franchise QB. Aaron was drafted in the first round & had luxury of three years development behind Farve. Wentz will be forced to come in as a rookie and pick up the pieces of a broken down Romo (career is over no matter how much Jones/Garrett love Tony).
Without real game time, that backup QB has no real value. Look at Aaron Murray, Garrett Grayson, or even Ryan Nassib. Not a big market for those guys.
We even got Ryan Mallett for a conditional 7th of a future draft.
Chase Daniels has some game time, but the only person interested in him was his OC who is now the HC of another team.
Texian
Hall of Fame
Then like now Romo and Rodgers both sat on the bench for 3 years before becoming the starter. Romo's first two years as a starter he went to the Pro Bowl. 10 years to develop, no sir.
Now Wentz (or Goff) to Dallas makes sense to me too. And add to the age factor the fact that Romo's cap it will be, on average, $23.6 mil for each of the next four seasons starting with this one. Having the heir apparent being groomed would be a smart thing from Romo's salary cap and advancing age viewpoint. And then there's his injury history to consider. I wouldn't call Romo fragile but he's had his share of "boo-boos". One of these young guns would just be good insurance.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
Real game time tends to happen due to injuries and blowouts even if it's a small sample size. And there's always preseason film. qb talent is a commodity and teams will overpay like they always do. If they they dont, it's great having a good back up who's cheap.
To Dallas makes the least since to me. Jerrah thinks he can win Super Bowl this year. He thinks he's got a three year window with Romo. He'll be looking for someone to make maximum impact in 2016. I think the only way he'll even entertain a trade would be if he thinks he can still get that guy he's targeting.
In addition to that, he probably thinks he can identify that guy with the required skills & intangibles to develop in the later rounds, if not undrafted the same way he did with Romo.
beerlover
Hall of Fame
Let me clarify. Undrafted in 2003, he did make pro-bowl 2006-07 whatever, I was still a doubter that he was indeed a franchise QB up until last two seasons, hence my 10 year grade. I just never bought into the hype, to me he would always find a way to cost the Cowboys a playoff game. Conversely, Rodgers first year as starter he came out of the gate & you could tell he was a franchise QB. I see your 3 & raise you 10
Texian
Hall of Fame
Wentz or Goff to Dallas may not make sense in 2016 or 2017, Wentz or Goff in Dallas in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028, 2029 and 2030 does.
On top of that when you take in to consideration that it will take almost every rookie a couple years before they really are able to contribute, Goff or Wentz to Dallas makes even more sense.
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Nope. Still doesn't make sense.