Carr Leadership Quote

[thunderkyss]

Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. Favre led the league in passing yards, completions, and was 3rd in the NFL in passing TD's all in 98. Young was 4th in completions, 2nd in passing yards, and 1st in passing TD's in 98. Cunningham was 5th in passing yards, 2nd in passing TD's, and 2nd in yards per pass. Plummer was 3rd in completions, 4th in passing yards, and 3rd in pass attempts. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.

You just said he was 4th in passing yards.... right behind Bret Favre..... how can they be playing at different levels?? if they were in the top ten, they're playing at a less than half the other QBs in the league...... how many QBs played in 98 anyway?? 50??

3rd in completions.... only two guys had better completion percentage. You're looking at some stat sheet/sheets with these guys names on it, and Jake's name is right there along side them..... in passing yards, completions, and pass attempts....... uh... it think that puts him at their level....... and unless you are looking at the bottom of the list, I think that puts him at the top of the list.

in 1998........ I think you've made our point...... Jake= Good QB on bad team..... David=avg QB on a bad team........


thanks, I'm going to bed.........

 

[texan279]

You just said he was 4th in passing yards.... right behind Bret Favre..... how can they be playing at different levels?? if they were in the top ten, they're playing at a less than half the other QBs in the league...... how many QBs played in 98 anyway?? 50??

3rd in completions.... only two guys had better completion percentage. You're looking at some stat sheet/sheets with these guys names on it, and Jake's name is right there along side them..... in passing yards, completions, and pass attempts....... uh... it think that puts him at their level....... and unless you are looking at the bottom of the list, I think that puts him at the top of the list.

in 1998........ I think you've made our point...... Jake= Good QB on bad team..... David=avg QB on a bad team........


thanks, I'm going to bed.........

Of course he is going to be at the top of the league in completions and yards when he throws so much, he was 3rd in the league in attempts, yet you fail to mention that while Plummer may be up there with Favre and the rest in passing yards and completions he only threw 17 TD's that season and threw 20 INT's. Based on this logic if Carr is 3rd in the NFL in 06 in pass attempts and 4th in passing yards yet only throws 15 TD's and throws 20 INT's you have to put him on the level with guys like Favre, Aikman, Young, and Cunningham. And Plummer was not 3rd in completion percentage, but passes completed, there is a difference.

 

[TwinSisters]

Has nothing to do with winning a playoff game. You cannot honestly think Plummer was/is above the level of Young, Favre, Cunningham, or Aikman.

In 1998, he's in the top tier. The rest is just Aquaman vs Batman stuff.
Aikman was hurt in 1998, so Plummer could compete with him.

The point being here is that you can find fifty cases to argue that Plummer is a top tier quarterback in his second year. There are none for Carr in all 4 years. That's the basis of saying one has done something on par with his peers and the other has not. The 04 season is still not top ten material.
--

On the Bobby Layne bit. He most certainly is known nationwide. There is not a football junky worth his salt that doesn't know of him. He is the last leader of the Lions, that in itself gets him notice.

As for the common NFL person not knowing him, well that is okay. They most likely don't know Bart Starr, Blanda, Jurgenson, etc. and whole lotta the other old school players either. So it's not like a discredit to Layne by himself.

 

[texan279]

In 1998, he's in the top tier. The rest is just Aquaman vs Batman stuff.
Aikman was hurt in 1998, so Plummer could compete with him.

The point being here is that you can find fifty cases to argue that Plummer is a top tier quarterback in his second year. There are none for Carr in all 4 years. That's the basis of saying one has done something on par with his peers and the other has not. The 04 season is still not top ten material.
--

On the Bobby Layne bit. He most certainly is known nationwide. There is not a football junky worth his salt that doesn't know of him. He is the last leader of the Lions, that in itself gets him notice.

As for the common NFL person not knowing him, well that is okay. They most likely don't know Bart Starr, Blanda, Jurgenson, etc. and whole lotta the other old school players either. So it's not like a discredit to Layne by himself.

So if Kubiak calls 450 pass plays this season and Carr leads the league in pass attempts with 450 but throws 17 TD's and 20 INT's you'll consider him a top tier QB? The only reason Plummer was ranked high in those categories is because of the playcalling, and even though he ranked in the top five among attempts and completions, he couldn't crack the top 10 in TD passes, but Plummer HIMSELF threw more INT's with 20 than 24 other teams threw as a team.

 

[GP]

I cannot wait until preseason games.

I am so stinking tired of this endless "Carr" debate.

I know I've fed the trolls by even posting THIS reply...but I am just counting the days until we get some actual games to view...and so we can talk real football again and NOT about the 1,000 different angles of David Carr and Jake Plummer and Julius Peppers and Vince Young and Long Hair vs. Short Hair and Stat Breakdowns and etc. etc. etc.

Give me football games or give me death.

 

[TwinSisters]

So if Kubiak calls 450 pass plays this season and Carr leads the league in pass attempts with 450 but throws 17 TD's and 20 INT's you'll consider him a top tier QB? The only reason Plummer was ranked high in those categories is because of the playcalling, and even though he ranked in the top five among attempts and completions, he couldn't crack the top 10 in TD passes, but Plummer HIMSELF threw more INT's with 20 than 24 other teams threw as a team.

IF Kubiak calls 450 Pass plays Etc etc. AND the Texans are driving the ball to win games and make the playoffs with Carr beating teams with other QBs with better teams THEN I would think about him as a top tier QB.

I actually wouldn't even need that... I would just need to see it.
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450 pass calls is low nowadays. 500 is closer to the average I think. You can look at the total plays called of various teams in the NFL stats pages. ( although they haven't been working properly lately )
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Attempts increase with new sets of downs. That means your defense didn't have to go back out on the field after a three and out.

INTs are bad. But if you are winning, INTs are not as bad. INTs are not that bad either, if you are losing and you tried to win. There are junk INTs too. Those that come at the half or at the end of a losing game. It's better to throw it up or force it in the final minutes then to sit on it and lose for sure.

 

[Hulk75]

hmm....... he was sacked 15 times in 2003..... his best yardage year was 2004, when he was sacked 49 times......

The Patriots won the Superbowl in 2001 with a first year starter, an OLine that gave up 46 sacks, a nobody RB, and two nobody(at the time) recievers...

HHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM......... How many games did he NOT play in and how many did he play hurt, In 2003.

I swear, thanks for pointing out the obvous.

And each one of those Coaches on that Patriot team now have Head Coaching jobs and are known as some of the best in their field O or D.

 

[Hulk75]

Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....

Taking sacks?, Thats funny.


I will tell you right now, Carr fits this Offense PERFECTLY, you can bring up the SAME OLD SAME OLD untill the 1st game, But this guy IS going to go off this year so I would with hold some words before the hole gets deeper and you start yelling "Help I am sorry get me out of here" to people around here, cause they will fall on def ears or "eyes"(we do read this not listen).

Jake was let go and Carr is still with his 1st team.

 

[thunderkyss]

Of course he is going to be at the top of the league in completions and yards when he throws so much, he was 3rd in the league in attempts, yet you fail to mention that while Plummer may be up there with Favre and the rest in passing yards and completions he only threw 17 TD's that season and threw 20 INT's. Based on this logic if Carr is 3rd in the NFL in 06 in pass attempts and 4th in passing yards yet only throws 15 TD's and throws 20 INT's you have to put him on the level with guys like Favre, Aikman, Young, and Cunningham. And Plummer was not 3rd in completion percentage, but passes completed, there is a difference.

I missed that... there is a big difference....

Personally I wouldn't have slotted Jake as a top tier QB in 2000......... But I'd definitely have him on the list of up and commers....

Today, I'd have Eli Manning, Chris Simms, Byron Leftwich and Carson Palmer on that list.

I put David Carr on the same list as I'd put Joey Harrington, Aaron Brooks, Charlie Batch, & Tim Couch....... to me, that's not a bad list to be on. Guys who have proven they can play, but have yet to experience success, most likely due to poor coaching......... with the exception of Aaron Brooks, because he has had success, but probably the worst coaching of all.....


In 1998.... the Up & Comers would have been Jake, Mcnair, flutie, & Peyton Manning.

 

[thunderkyss]

Taking sacks?, Thats funny.


I will tell you right now, Carr fits this Offense PERFECTLY, you can bring up the SAME OLD SAME OLD untill the 1st game, But this guy IS going to go off this year so I would with hold some words before the hole gets deeper and you start yelling "Help I am sorry get me out of here" to people around here, cause they will fall on def ears or "eyes"(we do read this not listen).

Jake was let go and Carr is still with his 1st team.

hey....... I'm with you..... I'm very optomistic about what Carr will do next year... I'm just saying he sucked last year. We haven't done anything to our offensive line, that we haven't done before, and overall, we haven't had any major overall of the offensive talent..... we've got a new tight end........ just like years before, we have the same(more or less) offensive line, a fullback who personally I have no reason to believe is anybetter than the guy we let go, and the only real addition in Eric Moulds...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.

But Carr sucked....... just as badly as Wade, T.J, Babin, Buchannon(that may be pushing it), Gaffney, etc......

& I don't get what you are saying about David's '03 season...... are you saying he would have taken 34 more sacks that year, if he didn't play hurt, or played in those 5 more games?? or are you saying he would have thrown for another 1500 yards in those 5 games??

I'd be ecstatic if David had 5 300 yard games in a single season.....

 

[KKHouston]

OKAY so winning a playoff game in Green Bay in the dead of winter will. Pro Bowls are awarded to the better QBs ( not just fan input either ).

1998 Plummer is not a top tier QB?.... Marino was about out by 1998.
Young, Farve, Aikman was hurt, Cunnigham ( in line of 4 QBs ), Elway won it all. Chris Chandler. Testeverde. Plummer was on the level with these guys, if not a bit above or below.

That's absurd. Plummer is no where near the level of QB Favre, Elway, Young, or Marino, and NEVER will be. Statistics are just that... statistics. In no way, shape, or form, do they indicate the leadership abilities of a QB. They simply indicate personal accomplishments. If Plummer was the shiznit, why did Arizona let him go? If they saw anything in his leadership abilities, why not work with him? They didn't see it.

Kubiak's system (or course, Shanahan's too) had a major influence on his game. He stopped making as many dumb mistakes. He started letting his teammates around him play ball. Yes, in the playoffs last year, he imploded. But that's a testament to his character, not his ability.

Carr hasn't blown up. He has both - ability AND character, which he has proven with his attitude over and over.

This thread isn't about Plummer, Joey Harrington, Kitna, or anyone but Carr. In Kubiak's plan, he will have the tools needed to succeed, along with the understanding of what he is to, and when to do it. If he fails, then we know. But if he succeeds, then good for us. Why would you want this guy to fail? So many armchair COACHES here... aren't we supposed to be fans?

 

[U4ikrob]

"but I also commend him for performing well in 2004 despite the dismal O-line.'

As has been mentioned by many posters, Carr had a good 1st half in 2004, lousy 2nd half-continuing into 2005 (string of 25 games). Carr had more int's than TD's the 2nd half and ended the season with that 6 sack performance against the Browns (worse team in the league that year). We won 7 games (4 against the Jags and Titans) and only beat 1 winning team that year--our best year to date.

Out of curiousity where was our defense during those 3 seasons? 03 -05?? The defense cost the team quite a few games with their inability to stop anyone from scoring. It's hard to win shootouts when your spending 50% your time as a qb running from pressure - another 40% of your play callsare off-tackle runs & rb pitches and your only audibles are run left or right. DC's playcallign hands were tied for a majority of his QB career and has been documented and quoted in interviews. In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.

To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff. Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better? He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks. My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.

...one other point--Carr's accuracy. I think this figure is enhanced by the fact that most of Carr's throws are 'short' passes, especially to DD. David is not known for taking chances throwing the ball down field.

David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt. David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble. Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time. And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.

This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.

 

[mikoto]

I don't know about Carr, but I do know that he is tough, classy and has ALL the tangibles that don't just grow on trees. Jake is not even in Carr's league when it comes to velocity and quickness of release.

I guess we'll all know soon enough if he can be a winner in this league.

Jake the snake was a gunslinger famous for making bad decisions while in Arizona. True he made plays, sometimes spectacular plays, but often as not he forced balls into bad situations. In fact, sometimes the definition of a spectacular play is one that shouldn't have been possible.

Someone who consistently tries that kind of stuff in the NFL is going to get beat most of the time, witness TD/Int ratio. Worse still, he is going to get his team beat. I watched him a great deal while in Arizona because, if nothing else, he was entertaining and courageous. But forcing balls into poor situations hardly qualifies someone as a good QB even if he pulls it off sometimes. And throwing the ball a ton does not mean that you are a top QB even if it does beef up certain stats. He had talent but lacked discipline while there. Denver coached him up though, which gives me some measure of hope for Carr.

Now Jake is just an above average QB who won't beat his team with mistakes, but hasn't got one single thing he can do with the *ball* better than Carr can, i.e. accuracy, velocity, release quickness, etc. You can make the argument about reading defenses, etc. and I don't have an answer to that save to say that I don't think Carr has had the best position coaching in the world.

I think Carr has followed a somewhat opposite career path than jake did, probably due to coaching and talent surrounding him. He has great tangibles, but has played "over-disciplined" football resulting in boring, unspectacular play. I think it is well established that he has been coached to "not beat the team" with mistakes. This philosophy was central to the "keep it close and have a chance at the end" crapola espoused by Capers and co. I think and hope we will see a much more aggressive version of Carr and offense in general this year. Whether or not it works is anybody's guess...

btw, this is spot on:

Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming.

If all you ever see is eight in the box, stunt/blitz, and cover two, that is on scheme, talent around the QB, and playcalling. No one has ever had a reason to fear any dimension of our offense. Come over the top of Andre and we have no answer. We have, at times, played dink and dunk between the 20's effectively but had nothing that could take it to the house unless someone on D fell down or something, and nothing that scared them in the "red zone" (I hate that term lol). Teams have been laughing at us for four years.

 

[SESupergenius]

...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.

Talent was a huge problem. We didn't have a go to guy on short yardage. We didn't have a guy on the line that we can rely on to run behind and we didn't have a 2nd receiver to take pressures off of AJ.

 

[thunderkyss]

In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.

David Carr Played poorly last year....... that's all I'm saying..... I'll blame some sacks on him, some three and outs..... but I'm not, and to the best of my recollection(which ain't that good) don't remember ever blaming David Carr for any loss.....

To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff.

Fine.... what was that all about?? we were happy with 7-9 weren't we?? Sure more would have been better..... but 7-9 after their third year....... why wold they all just give up on the coach??

Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better?

It didn't make sense to me, to promote Pendry...... Just like you...... it appeared saddistic and just plain mean to promote the coach for the O-Line to offensive Coordinator when we were giving up so many sacks......... Unless Capers thought the guy who was responsible for the QB(Palmer) was more to blame for those sacks than the guy responsible for the OLine(Pendry)

But could David Play better?? Yeah. On a one step, or two step drop...... throw the ball.... back foot hits ground, you throw ball... don't try to read the coverage.... since he isn't doing it all too well when they do give him time. One step, throw it..... three steps, throw it...

He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

So what was the problem?? McKinney?? Hogdon?? Weary?? Pitts?? Wiegart?? Wand?? where was it?? did we get rid of it yet?? Cause all those guys are still here.

Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks.

My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

So what you're saying, is that everyone on our team sucked last year, except David Carr.... that he was the only one out there trying to win..

I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.

Fine.... I'll take your word for it.....

David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

A lot of people have won a lot of games like that...

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC.

Has that been their M.O. throughout their carreers, or is this something they started when they came to Houston??

I don't believe we were predictable, or that our offense was dumbed down in '02/'03...... but it's definitely gotten worse sine then.

& I wish that I had seen him play in College..... then maybe I'd have some love for him.... as it stands now...... I've seen better guys come and go.

It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt.

I remember........

David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble.

If David agreed to take a sack for that reason, then I do want him out of here. It's stupid for a coach to suggest it, and even dumber for a QB to agree. Chunk it out of bounds....... take the intentional grounding penalty. It's counted as a sack, and it's treated as a sack, clock keeps running.......

There is no reason to tell a QB to take a sack. Not if you care about the guy, and want to keep him healthy.

Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time.

Or you figure out how to get rid of the ball in 3 seconds...... that's a long time.

And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.

Let's see the team lay down on Bret Favre..... Aikman..... Young..... heck, Drew Bledsoe wouldn't put up with that crap. If you're fine with a QB doing that, letting that kind of behavior go on..... then we're just looking for two different players, and should just leave it at that.

This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.

But those guys didn't need any coaching? Gaffney... Bradford.... only David right?? Okay... whatever.....

 

[KKHouston]

David Carr Played poorly last year....... that's all I'm saying..... I'll blame some sacks on him, some three and outs..... but I'm not, and to the best of my recollection(which ain't that good) don't remember ever blaming David Carr for any loss.....

Uh...

Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

Okay. I think we're being led down a road here just for fun.

 

[tsip]

Out of curiousity where was our defense during those 3 seasons? 03 -05?? The defense cost the team quite a few games with their inability to stop anyone from scoring. It's hard to win shootouts when your spending 50% your time as a qb running from pressure - another 40% of your play callsare off-tackle runs & rb pitches and your only audibles are run left or right. DC's playcallign hands were tied for a majority of his QB career and has been documented and quoted in interviews. In general this is my problem with posts like this and TK's posts - the putting of all the wins/losses for the team on DC's shoulders as the main reason for the loss. Granted the man could improve in places, but alot of players could have and should have done the same.

To TK - I along with several posters saw the 05 season coming back in TC and I posted more than one scathing post back during TC last year after I went to Dallas and watched them play. The TEAM was horrible and looked lethargic, like they were goign thru the motions nad were giving up on the staff. Then Palmer gets let go and they promote the O-line coach who's gotten Carr sacked a league record amount of times and you and others think DC's play should have been better? He should have tried harder? I addressed most of these points in earlier posts so wont go on further, but this arguement is truely an enigma to me as it was obvious to alot of people there were things wrong with the team in the last half of 04 into the 05 season and a majority of those problems werent with the fricking Starting QB.

Note on the 04 season - A majority of the oline problems were resolved and the team was developing a rhythm an dthen in the middle of the season Palmer and crew decided to change the O-line blocking scheme again and then all of sudden there were more sacks. My eyes tell me thats not a DC problem, but a lack of continuity problem from your coaches and players quit trying. The defense is especially suspect during that time as there was more than one game that got way out of hand because the defense couldnt keep a barnyard animal out of the endzone much less any nfl team.

I watched David play myself at practice, in TC, at games & afterwards since he's been here - I can easily provide examples of his work ethics[staying late] and quotes of him and Andre workign on the side to develop rhythm.



David is not known for taking chances?? or his OC & HC who were calling the plays arent known for it? Capers was always a conservative run first coach and it showed more than once in his playcalls and his conservative play at the end of alot of games we lost because he quit being aggressive on the Offense and went to his often quotable "Play it close to the end" style and ended up on the losing end a majority of the time because the Defense couldnt stop anyoen from scoring.

I know the DC from College who lit up passing records and had no problem throwing the damn ball, running boots and getting away from sacks, yet you guys seem to put all the onus on him for making bad calls liek he's shown no promise at all - no stats and has made nothing of his time here. Granted the man makes a few mistakes here and there, but I think a large majority of the playcalling wins/losses issues have to do with the "Predictable" playcalling of Palmer, Capers and Pendry and there reluctance to give any leeway in the playcalling to DC. It should be a very telling sign to anyone who's paid attention to the playcalling for the last 4 years - there wasnt much the coaches were doing right as teams often stacked 8 in the box and the losses kept coming. Players see that and quit believing, quit trying as hard. Football certainly has a motivation factor to it that has to be accounted for. My memory recalls more than once we were ahead in games over the last 4 years when Dom and the OC would pull back the reigns on the offense and we went to 3 runs and a punt. David was told to take a sack, not to loose the football and a majority of the time not to run with the ball and risk a fumble. Dom was always the conservative type and didnt care much for Carr's scrambling. Just listen to David's recent interviews on the new playcalling and rolling out and you can hear all you want about the subject from the horses mouth. IMO It's rather hard to not get a sack when you arent given any options to do anything with the ball except go one place. There is no playcalling reads to make and if your the QB and you know the playcall gets you a DE in your face after 3 seconds because its happened 10 times in a row - i'm sure that 11th time on your probably starting to doubt its gonna work this time. And because none of your teamates are buying into the play calls either they run short routes, take plays off, play half heartedly and it all effects the players and taem around them.

This team was lifeless last year, and I stand by my prior points a majority of that was due to lack of REAL coaching.

And to Tk's earlier post about David needing a All-pro team for him to succeed...

IMO thats way off base. As I stated earlier David and many other players really needed good coaching more than anything. For DC in particular having a Offensive gameplan that produces results and is about giving the players a chance to play, not a hodge podge of plays thrown together as a playbook and then being told dont audible to anythign other than a run might have helped alot.

All the players on the team need an average chance to succeed to win the game - They need to be able to try and make plays and let the players play the game - nothing more.

IMO David has shown a majority of the time when he's given an average amount of time to throw the ball - he succeeds a majority of the time in hitting his target. Stats can show it, but I prefer the live plays myself.

Can we say the same thing for the receivers catching the ball when it hit them in the hands [Bradford] or running a complete route [Gaffney]. There was no TE in our offense to throw too which was David's major target the first 2 years [Billy Miller] so that leaves only 1 target 90% of the time - Outlet pass to DD. And that is what are offense ended up being a majority of the time. All the players are responsible to play up to par if they want a chance to win.

...couldn't you find just 1 'new' thought on Carr? I'm running out of boots...and, it's OK to back up your 'thoughts' with facts every once in awhile--before last years debacle and the prior 'witch hunts,' the 's demanded every statement by the CL's to be 'notarized' as fact...

 

[thunderkyss]

Uh...



Okay. I think we're being led down a road here just for fun.

what??

I said David didn't get Capers "system"

we didn't get Capers "system"

Capers didn't get Capers "system"

I'm not saying we went 2-14 because David was the only one who didn't get Capers "system".

 

[KKHouston]

what??

I said David didn't get Capers "system"

we didn't get Capers "system"

Capers didn't get Capers "system"

I'm not saying we went 2-14 because David was the only one who didn't get Capers "system".

C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's needed, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.

 

[HOU-TEX]

C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's need, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.[/QUOTE]

It's like reading the National Inquirer, entertaining to read, but full of BS

 

[U4ikrob]

Now TK - you had no problems pulling my post apart to make your points, but you couldnt read the verbiage in between that answered a majority of your questions your posing me???

Just re-read the posts above and it will explain a majority of the points. I'm ceratinly not asserting DC was the only one in need of coaching, but merely everyone was performing under-par and could step it up a few notches - but mainly I felt the Coaching Staff needed to do the most stepping up and teaching of the players. I hoenstly felt liek they were lettign the players down alot with their own "Going thru the Motions" approach to coaching the team and it refelcted itself i nthe way the team played. The playcalling and its lame-duck versions have been well documented on this board and numerous NFL sites for the last few years - easily referenced if you look. As for what happened in between 04 and 05 - as I stated above I felt the players quit on the staff, because they felt what they were being asked to do was mickey mouse stuff that didnt work and the players quit trying as hard because they quit believing it would work. I can pull a few quotes from players to easily show that point including Mckinney, D-rob, TJ, Walker and Carr.

Bottom line for my point - All Players needed to step up - some did and others did not. The coaching staff I felt needed to do th most stepping up though and didnt - instead they didnt hold each other accountable and the players took that to heart. They needed to actually coach the players into a TEAM and teach the players their positions [esp the rookies] and help them turn into good Pro players. I saw a real lack of that fundamental coaching with a lot of the rookie players on this team over the last few years esp the O-line, QB, WR and Defense. Now some of that IS what it is sloppy/lazy player traits, but I feel alot of it was not being coached up the right way from the first year with the team and not reinforcing it later with coaches and playcalls that produce results from doign things the right way. Players watch for results, not just words. IMO Now that the accountability with the player and the team is a part of the equation with Coach K & Co - you will see a vast difference in player execution and team performance overall as a result.

Like I mentioned before IMO 'Its hard to be succesfull in a business without a good infrastructure." People need clear direction and solid reinforcement of whats going on and what to do when things happen. IMO This same thing applies to just about any team or business in general thats succesful.

 

[thunderkyss]

C'mon, TK - you've crawfish more than a politician.. You've been all over the place disguising your argument on this... The basic point was Carr now should have the tools he's need, and a Coach who knows what he is doing.

Somehow it's digressed into John Kitna/Joey Harrington/Aaron Brooks as opposed to David Carr, when you, yourself agree that Carr hasn't had a decent opportunity to perform under the old command.

Carr underperformed, we all agree. Carr didn't have the support he needed and now he has the chance. The majority of us think he has what it takes to succeed given this opportunity.

No harm, no foul. You're fun to read.

It's like reading the National Inquirer, entertaining to read, but full of BS

So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

 

[Hulk75]

hey....... I'm with you..... I'm very optomistic about what Carr will do next year... I'm just saying he sucked last year. We haven't done anything to our offensive line, that we haven't done before, and overall, we haven't had any major overall of the offensive talent..... we've got a new tight end........ just like years before, we have the same(more or less) offensive line, a fullback who personally I have no reason to believe is anybetter than the guy we let go, and the only real addition in Eric Moulds...... so technically, this is still Caper's team......... and talent wasn't the problem. & Since the defense had about as much, or less turnover as we did on offense, we were all right in having high expectations for our team(play-offs) in '05.

But Carr sucked....... just as badly as Wade, T.J, Babin, Buchannon(that may be pushing it), Gaffney, etc......

& I don't get what you are saying about David's '03 season...... are you saying he would have taken 34 more sacks that year, if he didn't play hurt, or played in those 5 more games?? or are you saying he would have thrown for another 1500 yards in those 5 games??

I'd be ecstatic if David had 5 300 yard games in a single season.....

Back and Forth all around we come back to the same thing.

Bottom Line the TEAM>>>>>>>TTEEAAMM SUCKED last year due to the COACHING STAFF and there inabillity to have the right scheme/Game plan week in and week out. We have as much talent as any team in the league.

P-R-E-D-I-C-T-A-B-L-E, same thing every week week in week out for 4 years. Sooner or later NFL teams will catch on. That is it PERIOD. The Guys that did not get it done are not here and that is the Coaching staff.

Give me all the stats in the world, bad or good. That left with the staff that was here last. Listen to the guys when they talk after practice, David Carr called Troy Callohon a Genius. And if Troy is a genuis and Carr is picking up the Offense quick and is the most impressive at camp right now(says Kubiak), then I have to believe that all this he can read Defense stuff was due to how predictable the Offense acctually was last year and how well each team KNEW what we were doing.

When you have fans that Know right on weather it was a run or a Pass last 4 year, what in the HECK do you think NFL D Cor. knew. Run Run Pass! Run Run Pass!

Carr can play and play at a very high level...........No lets think do you really think that Andre stats last year was the best he could do, but yet he did not suck to you.
Let me tell you who the best CB in the league was and still is since he got on at Dallas Chris Palmer, by far the best Defender in the league, he can lock down some of the best Offenses in the league.

So go on and on all you want, the Kid is going to come out smoking He is working his BUTT OFF right now and that always pays off.

Kind of hard to throw for 300 yards in a RUN FIRST OFFENSE! Mind Blowing sometimes, Why does he not have Peyton stats, give me a break, if you cant answer that you should not be a loud to watch football.

 

[HOU-TEX]

So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

Considering I can't see into the future, I'm not sure he's a bright spot in the 06 season since it hasn't even been played yet. Truthfully, I think I'm done posting about DC due to posters like yourself constantly repeating the same things over and over, no matter how many times others on this board have posted obvious proof to contradict what you spew. Good day and good luck

 

[KKHouston]

So you're saying that David was a bright spot on our team in 2006??

Was? 2006? I wish I could know that for certain. I'd be rich.

I'm saying he has what he needs now... a good coach, and has every opportunity to succeed in 2006. I think he has the ability and the passion, and more importantly, the clarity.

 

[U4ikrob]

...couldn't you find just 1 'new' thought on Carr? I'm running out of boots...and, it's OK to back up your 'thoughts' with facts every once in awhile--before last years debacle and the prior 'witch hunts,' the 's demanded every statement by the CL's to be 'notarized' as fact...

I understand that Tsip - Wasnt trying to rehash the old arguements, but TK was baiting me [thats my story and im sticking to it] [J/K - TK]

Seriously I can back up most of my posts with facts, quotes and other things as I have usually done in the past. Ive been here all along since the first board too and just got back to posting again on the board during the Off season last year as I got tired of the first boards TROLLS - It's no wonder that board got canned.

To answer - Alot of the points I was bringing are from recent quotes and interviews with Carr here at this site so didnt feel it necessary to re-post. Like most here I watch the games, attend TC and like credability and usually provide links for posts. Check out some of my other past work. I'll do that if need be here, but were on page 9 now - so figured folks are into full on conjecture at this point - ala Mora: PLAYOFFS??? lol

 

[thunderkyss]

To me, this quote:

“Now that we have a system in place where I really understand not just my position, but everybody’s position, I’m going to make sure everyone’s in place and make sure we’re all running the same unit.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=2680&section=N Latest News

That says a ton.

This is the quote I first responded to..... Some people look at the good in a post like this.

Well, the way I read it, it pretty much confirmed for me, something I've been trying not to think for the last three years......

our offense was getting simpler and simpler because our QB couldn't grasp what Capers/Palmer were trying to do.......

But I posted what I saw when I read it. He now understands his position and the other positions on the field..... Meaning he didn't understand his position last year, or the position of the people around him....

Yet...... Hulk75 knew what his position was, and so did ever DefCord according to him.

So...... alot of people wanted Weary, Wand, and McKinney out of here... because they didn't know what they were doing....... regardless of the bad coaching..

David Carr just admitted he didn't know what he was doing... IMHO, it showed...

Basically, lets boil down everything I've been saying for the last 5 or so pages...... and I've basically said the same thing David Carr did.....


I've also expressed an opinion of mine.... I thought Jake was special..... even watching him on a bad team, with all his bad stats.... whatever... I thought he was a diamond in the rough....

David Carr....... Year one, I thought he had just as much promise as any hotshot rookie QB.... since then....... I haven't been impressed...

but check this out........ I don't think the Blue Home Jersey look as good as the BattleRed Jerseys........

Does that upset you?? Does that put your panties in a wad??

it shouldn't, it's just an opinion..... that's what I believe, and I have reasons for why I believe that way..

I've not been impressed by David Carr for a very long time.... The team was bad, but I believe I should have seen something to make me think he has what it takes to be better than avg..... but I haven't. composure....... poise.... Command...... I'm not seeing it.

Can I back it up??

When I say David assumed the fetal position before he was touched..... am I making that up?? Is that something you did not see?? or is that acceptable and understandable to you??

If I were to tell you I've seen several occasions where David could have chunked the ball, or ran forward and to his right, where he had a lane, but for some reason he chose to turn around, and run back & to his left, right into a defender he could not see....... where Wade was doing his job, pushing his man around the pocket, but David ran right into him....... am I making that up as well, or is it acceptable to watch him do the same, time and time again.

Carr sucked...... but I'm not saying he was the worst player on the team.....

and I believe Kubiaks statement was more along the lines of "most improved", not "most impressive" there is a big difference.

most improved means he had a lot of areas to work on..... where if what the CLs were right, there'd be nothing that needs to be improved.....

 

[The Pencil Neck]

My logic was that watching him play, he played better than Carr. His stats didn't show it..... I didn't know if they did or didn't... he was on a bad team, I don't expect his stats to show anything special. I know from Watching him, he was special....... he had many fans, he was on a loosing team, but still showing up on sportscenter highlight reels..... If Tom Jackson hadn't started his "Jacked Up" segment, Carr wouldn't stand a chance of getting on Sports Center.

Jake didn't look like a rookie his 4th year. regardless what the stats say, he looked like a Good QB on a bad team..... not an avg QB on a bad team.

When Jake plays well, he looks really good. He's got that special "spark"... but then he turns around and makes incredibly stupid mistakes. The Broncos have been able to minimize that at times, but it still rears its ugly head at bad times.

I was one of Jake's fans coming out of ASU and his first few years in the NFL but he's not the QB you want on your team if you want to do anything. He'll find a way to break your heart.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

His rookie and first full starter season he was commanding comeback play. His team was in the playoffs while his defense was never ranked that high. He did not a lot of support around him. His coach was Caper's mentor.

Well, he had Adrien Murrell running for over 1,000 yards and Frank Sanders with over 1,000 yards receiving and Rob Moore was just short of 1000 yards receiving.. He had Larry Centers as his fullback catching 69 passes. Lomas Brown was on the offensive line.

Murrell had come to the Cards after a couple of good years with the Jets. Larry Centers is ranked 9th all time in Receptions and was coming off a couple of great receiving years. Sanders had three good years there and Moore had 5 years of around 1000 yards. These weren't 1-shot guys; they were good. They had Eric Metcalf as their 3rd receiver that year.

That defense had Aeneas Williams at one corner (he went to the Pro Bowl that year) and Corey Chavous at the other and Simeon Rice and Eric Swann on the line. They weren't good but they weren't nearly as bad as the D the Texans fielded last year.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

And like I said earlier, Carr in the last 4 seasons has had just as weak if not a weaker cast than Plummer had around him.

I think Plummer had the obviously stronger and more experienced cast around him.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

Only because Carr is taking sacks, and Jake was making plays....

The Cardinals had 78 sacks in 97 and 50 sacks in 98.

Does that sound familiar?