Death to Google Ads! Texans Talk Tip Jar! 🍺😎👍
Thanks for your support!
Carr Leadership Quote
- Thread starter The Pencil Neck
- Start date
TK_Gamer said:
Well........
we haven't done anything this year, that we haven't done in past years, as far as putting people on the Offensive line. If our starters are going to be Wand, Pitts, Flanagan, McKinney, Wiegart, there is only one guy not picked by Capers..... & drafting Spencer & Winston in the third, is basically the same place we've always drafted Linemen...... save Pearce & Hogdon.
So....... with your thinking, David Carr shouldn't feel anybetter about this offensive line, than he has in the past.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
thunderkyss said:
What a silly statement. Capers had no idea how to use a QB. Thunderkyss... it's not too late to admit that Capers had no idea what he was doing with the offense.
xtruroyaltyx said:Exscuse me for asking, but....what in the hell are you talking about ??? Do you normally just jump in on conversations and make ridiculous assumptions or is this a first time thing ??? I just read your first paragraph and decided the rest wasn't worthy of reading...I don't know what you "thought" was going on, or what you "thought" was being discussed but I have to give you a smooth..........But if you want to argue about Carr, and his lack of production then we can do...
I addressed your post. The reason for the quote at the beginning. No need to get nasty, not that I care. I certainly don't value your opinion enough to get nasty, that would imply that I respect you enough to care. You are just some anonymous words on my screen.
It is easy to deny the value of something that clearly contradicts your point of view. It is the, [insert tact] easy, way out.
The topic of the thread is "Carr Leadership Quote". The thread then evolved/devolved into various discussions about his general merit/lack of.
However, since I did not address his "Leadership Quote" directly I will take your "off topic" criticism fwiw. I do not, however, feel that I am alone in this. i.e. insert mirror, or black kettle.
kbourda
Veteran
TexansLucky13 said:
This is my first post in a while so i'll try to keep it brief. From what I gather on this board, the meaning of a coachable Qb is for that player to conform to what the offensive scheme is not the other way around. So what Thunder said isn't as silly as you may think. As much as I see other QB's (not naming any names) get flamed for not meshing with an offensive scheme now, a coach isn't credible because he has a QB whom can't conform to what the coach wants. Can't have it both ways. I've said it a thousand times base an offense around a QB's strenghts and a productive offense will occur.
kbourda said:
Well said, for a first post in awhile... Simply look at other teams around the NFL, with successful programs. It works. When Elway retired, the Broncos had the same remaining team. The New factor was Brian Griese. His strengths were different. Peyton *is* successful, because they built around him, as did the Cowboys, with Troy Aikman. Lump the Packers and Brett Favre in with this.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
kbourda said:
That COULD be a somewhat legitimate argument except for the the fact that Capers many times had said that he was adapting a system (I still have to figure out what the "system" was) that played to the players' strengths. That was not apparently the case with Carr.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
kbourda said:
Very true and I agree, but IMO, it wasn't a question of Carr correctly "conforming" to Capers' O. Conforming to a bad game plan just means bad play. You can't give someone an awful playbook and expect them to produce good results, no matter how closely the players conform. You wouldn't tell your O to run the hail mary every play and expect them to get anything but stomped.
The issue last year was that Capers' playbook and playcalling was awful.
R
real
Guest
mikoto said:
Dear Sir, or Ma'am....I understand your point of view on Carr...And I don't care about whether you respect me or not, but you obviously cared enough to respond...But when you quoted me the first time you went on a rant...a long rant....about something that my quoted message had nothing to pertain to....I don't mind stating my feelings about Carr..he hasn't performed, but that was not what I was discussing at the time....Like I said, you jumped into a conversation that you knew nothing about, and then referred to me as lazy...ha...I'll be as nasty as I wanna be....with my bad self...lmao
HOU-TEX said:I guess Carr not "conforming" to what Capers wanted caused all the sacks, dropped balls, missed tackles and just over all poor performance by all? Come on, ya'll are reaching!
But through all that, even though Capers is to blame..... we can spot weak spots on our team............ I'm just saying we need to add Carr to that list. As a poor performer........ he might be an all pro next year, but so may Gaffney, Milford Brown, Dave Ragone, Travis Johnson, Marcus Coleman, Phillip Buchannon.......... heck Tod Wade may even go the the proBowl(if someone picks him up).
thunderkyss said:
In my opinion, what is being said is that if a team in whole does not believe in what they are doing, and not held accountable by the Staff, it results in last year.
No one seriously believes that Capers had any leadership over this team the last season (if not longer), do they?
Kubiak has/is installing a system that above anything else, HE believes in. It's then his job to ensure the team buys into it, as well. Kubiak has that ability - he's proven it in his various roles the last several years.
There is talent on this team. We do have players. Carr must step up, and assume a leadership role. Is he capable? Certainly. Will he? That is yet to be determined, but if you look at Kubiak's history, he can give Carr every opportunity to succeed. I, personally, after watching what he did with Plummer in Denver, believe he can instill a winning attitude. He wasn't perfect with Plummer, but he certainly turned his game around. With work, knowledge, and a good supporting cast.
I'm more excited about this season than I have been in a few years. This draft proved Kubiak has a firm belief in what we had, and what we needed. Vince wasn't the answer... Reggie certainly wasn't. Let's give it a chance, and quit ragging Carr's leadership. He has the option now, if he steps up and shows the abilities I think we ALL know he has. Everyone wanted change. We have it.
xtruroyaltyx said:
Ah, now I see what your bone of contention was.
I did not mean to imply that you, specifically, are lazy. I meant that terms like "it", "football speed", and "can't teach speed" and many other metaphors and similes common to speech are used because it is difficult to express meaning concisely in nothing more than linear verbal code. I also do not intend to imply that they are not useful at times, they are, but not as a substitute for understanding.
I didn't make that clear and apologize for seeming to call you names. I do not know you, so how could I possibly know your character? I do not think you are lazy, I have no information that would support that conclusion. Again, I apologize.
Laziness or lack thereof was hardly the meat of my post and it wasn't a rant. It was a reasoned pov that bears directly upon the question of David Carr's ability to lead, as in, lead his team to wins. You may disagree with me that it was on topic or that it addressed your post in a relevant way, that is fine, I take no offense.
btw, I read the whole thread. Just because I don't post often doesn't mean that I don't use this board as my primary source of Texans news, i.e. read it alot. I latched on to your post because you used two phrases that shouldn't be applied to nor expected from an athlete on a bad team, "it" and "all world". There was nothing more in that post that interested me, so I used what interested me as a basis to express my views on the matter. Simple as that.
I am habitually verbose, but post infrequently, deal with it or ignore me. Either way, I did not intend to offend you and admit that the mistake, in that regard, was mine.
[edit] btw, I am tired of this and see no reason to continue it in a public forum so I'll drop it here.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
thunderkyss said:
I agree with this. Don't get me wrong. There's not much to say about any of the players performance to date. Including Carr. My point was for the people saying that it was DCs fault that he never "conformed" to Capers & Co offensive game plan. If there were any truth to that, then it would mean that the team as a unit would be guilty for not "conforming". With that being said, it obviously points directly to the coaching staff to be at fault for not getting the team to "conform" to what they wanted. :brickwall
KKHouston said:
the situation, is totally different......
Jake showed hints of talent all the while he was in Arizona..... if you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win... Jake has/had it, and it was always obvious.
with David, we have to build a probowl team around him before we can even see if he has it??
Can we win with David?? I'm sure we can...... can David throw for 4000 yards in '06?? with Molds, Andre, Putz, Cook, DD, and all the other guys fighting to be our #3 reciever, I'm expecting him to at least go over 3500.... I'm pretty sure I could.
Is it all Capers fault?? that's the main thing I'm arguing here...... Mostly, maybe.. But David is a Pro making plenty of money, he could have found many was to improve his game(it wasn't a secret that he's been underperforming for some time now)...... He's supposed to be good friends with his Idol Trent Dilfer.... he could have worked out with him some time...... He could've asked Mathis(who also needed to work) Armstrong(who also needed work) Andre, Gaffney, Bradford(who also needed the work) to work out with him before the season...... After the season....... after practice... he could have gone back to Fresno state and work with people he knows..... I don't know, but there are a lot of things he could've done to be better.....
but in '05........ even if you take away all the sacks, all the losses, (which I'm not blaming on him), he played poorly. As poorly as McKinney did at Center...... As poorly as Wiegart at Right Gaurd, as Poorly as Buchannon at Corner, Coleman at safety........ ok, maybe not that bad. But David Carr performed badly.......
Some of the blame...... coaching of course.
And all this talk about David being the ultimate team player, and conforming to whatever Capers had envisioned........ well that's just plain stupid. If I get fired, cut from the team, whatever......... because I'm trying to win games, then so be it. I will butt heads with the coach, and call an audible, a hot route, or a blocking scheme if I feel the coach is out of touch, or incometent.
Yeah, I might end up with T.O.s reputation, but when I do get picked up by my next team....... and if David is as talented and as good a guy as you all think he is, then he will be picked up...... I will work my butt off to prove that I need to be starting...... even if that means sitting on the bench behind Michael Vick(which would drive any QB worth his salt crazy) for two years......
I personally don't want a QB that is good enough......... like Dilfer, or Johnson. & I don't want a QB who stays, because he's got a good thing going, and doesn't want to rock the boat, when he knows the boat is sinking.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
KKHouston said:
Let's take into consideration that Denver selected a quarterback at the #11 overall pick this year (and traded up with several trades no less). This is two months after Plummer led them to the conference championship.
Plummer had a good year in '05, but is seems clear that Denver is not sold on Plummer being their starter for '07 or '08. Denver spent a lot to trade up, and I seriously doubt it is solely for insurance purposes.
Apply that to the Carr analysis when comparing him to the Kubiak tutoring of Plummer.
U4ikrob
Guitar Junky
Like on of those old adages - It's hard to fly with the Eagles when your surrounded by Turkeys.
Carr has some blame for sure, but once again I would labor that the entirety of blame being put on him to perform at All-pro levels while being hampered with a make-shift o-line, a clueless coaching staff and fan expecations that are so far out there its just unfathomable.
While I understand some of your point Thunder - I disagree with the amount of blame you put on DC's shoulders and the success level you seem to think he should have by now. He's a paid Pro for sure, but like all rookies he didnt come to this team that way and certainly had much to learn about playing his position succesfully, being a pro in this league, being a pro about the job. Couple those thigns with a bunch of nitwits as your Coaching staff - no positions coach and that leaves you with doing most things on your own. We basically had a bunch of players going about a job for 4 years IMO - not really a team and thus they played up and down accordingly. Honestly i'm surprised he turned out with parts still in tact after those 4 seasons and how the staff pretty much left him to the wolves on alot of things to do with being a pro on the team.
So you think your good enough to play with the Texans and pass for 3500 yds or better this next year easy eh???
Not going to question your fitness levels, but uhmmm Question - why are you not starting for some pro-team some where?
Carr has some blame for sure, but once again I would labor that the entirety of blame being put on him to perform at All-pro levels while being hampered with a make-shift o-line, a clueless coaching staff and fan expecations that are so far out there its just unfathomable.
While I understand some of your point Thunder - I disagree with the amount of blame you put on DC's shoulders and the success level you seem to think he should have by now. He's a paid Pro for sure, but like all rookies he didnt come to this team that way and certainly had much to learn about playing his position succesfully, being a pro in this league, being a pro about the job. Couple those thigns with a bunch of nitwits as your Coaching staff - no positions coach and that leaves you with doing most things on your own. We basically had a bunch of players going about a job for 4 years IMO - not really a team and thus they played up and down accordingly. Honestly i'm surprised he turned out with parts still in tact after those 4 seasons and how the staff pretty much left him to the wolves on alot of things to do with being a pro on the team.
So you think your good enough to play with the Texans and pass for 3500 yds or better this next year easy eh???
Not going to question your fitness levels, but uhmmm Question - why are you not starting for some pro-team some where?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
So now you were a closet Cards fan for years? Trying to push Plummer into the "always obvious" category is about like giving Horton the elephant a boost to sit on the bird's nest.
And going to the 9-7 Broncos with Clinton Portis, Rod Smith, Al Wilson was? Nice job of constructing a future argument though--if Carr succeeds at all it was the team not him.
For the record, I do not blame one loss on David Carr....... But I expect him not to run into sacks, not to run out of bounds with the ball behind the LOS...., not to assume the fetal position before contact is made, not to miss wide open recievers(I know he hit a particular guy in the helmet once, but you know he's missed guys..... either with a bad throw, or just didn't see them), I expect him to hit his recievers in stride(granted, most NFL starters don't), I expect him to get to the LOS and hike the ball before time expires...U4ikrob said:
Personally, I don't have a problem with keeping David through a coaching change..... I am disappointed, that it took a 2-14 season to realize we need the change...... and contrary to popular belief, I do not wish that we had drafted a certain Houston Native who just won the national championship..... by himself according to most U.S. publications and sports analasysts... I would have been upset if we had wasted......... I repeat, wasted that draft pick on a RB who is anything but your prototypical RB.......
I hope for all the best for David Carr..... I won't boo him..... EVER........ but I will call a duck a duck........ if he walks like a duck....
U4ikrob said:
Not every ProTeam has 4 ProBowlers on offense.....
TwinSisters
Veteran
hollywood_texan said:
I can apply it Brian Griese and Brain Griese had the same 4th Quarter problems that Denver couldn't fix.
Then they went out and got a guy that was the opposite of Griese. A guy that had shown 4th Quarter performance, but lacked good judgement in the other three.
Plummer is nothing like Carr outside of being strong armed and mobile. That's it. Their personalities, field presence, and football decisions are completely polar.
Jake's a buck to the NFL, to fans, and rubberneckers. That's not Carr.
texan279 said:
He did show signs of promise. But then again, Carr has shown signs as well, regardless what the masses choose to remember.
Plummer is NOT the Broncos choice for the future, and rightly so. He's had two seasons under Kubiak/Shanahan, and HAS made huge improvements in decision making, and ability. Plummer's a head case though. When pressured, he made decisions based upon his so-called ability to make it happen, as was evident in the playoffs last year - he simply fell back upon old habits when the pressure got to him. Do you sincerely think Carr and Plummer are even close to being the same type of quarterback? David has the ability to be taught. I'm not sure Plummer cares enough.
Kubiak has the knowledge, and the skill (I sincerely believe) to either make Carr perform to his ability, or recognize he's bet the farm on someone who can't make it.
It's not the team around him, or the player himself. It's how they accept the fact that they are a team, and each must do their job. If you're handling your business, it enables me to handle process.
The argument about Dilfer being his friend has no bearing on this. We all saw the spark and will when Carr called his own plays last year, didn't we?
Bob McNair
Waterboy
I've heard of pockets but I've never seen one - at least when the Texans have the ball. Oh wait...I know... it's that thing that Peyton Manning is standing in all day... (hopefully Mario can put an end to that!)MightyTExan said:I actually saw him step up into the pocket on a training camp clip.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
texan279 said:
You have to love when TK pulls this kind of stuff out.
Jake was always obvious with his 1st 4 years and Carr has shown nothing at all.
Plummer--56% comp. 10997 yds, 6.47 ypa, 54 TD's (3.1%), 80 INT's (4.7%) 66.2 QB rating.
Carr--57.8% comp. (with the last two years over 60%--something Plummer only did once his 1st 6 seasons), 10624 yds, 6.53 ypa, 48 TD's (2.8%), 53 INT's (3.2%--and more TD's than INT's last two years vs. 0 for plummer) 73.7 QB rating.
Seems to me we are far closer to both being in the hasn't proven anything category.
infantrycak said:
true...... neither had proven anything by year 4...... and that's why I said when you watch him play.. Arizona sucked...... Jake showed promise..... the Texans sucked... Carr showed... potential??
Jake had a lower QB rating, completion percentage, and less YPA.... but he had more yards, more tochdowns...... more Ints.. but that's what happens when you don't take/manufacture sacks.
I bet..........because I haven't looked...... I bet Jake had more wins by year 4(team sport...... yeah, I know) more comeback wins..... more 3 TD games, more first downs, more multiple touchdown games.....
& I bet...... because I have no way of knowing...... that drafting Cutler says more about what the Broncos think about Cutler than what they think about Jake.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
What Jake showed was exceedingly bad judgment racking up 9 TD's and 24 INT's in one season, etc. Where he had more highlight reel throws it was because Vince Tobin and his staff didn't crawl into a shell of denial and actually called plays as if they were down on points, desperate and needed to make something happen.
He had 300 odd more yds on 300 odd more attempts--you really going to try to spin that into a positive.
Ummm, if you say so.
The Cards won 4 more games over a 4 year time period without having been an expansion team. Maybe you can call that significant.
infantrycak said:
Fine....... let's meet halfway. I algree that Jake sucked..... and showed poor judgement..... and you can agree that Carr sucked, while showing good judgement.....
and as far as I'm concerned, the Cardinals have been an expansion team for the last 15 years.
thunderkyss said:
TK... even when dumbed-down, you still miss the point. You're argument is not making sense to anyone but yourself, here.
More yards? 370? Okay. Capers liked to run the ball.
4 more touchdowns? Well, 370 yards and 4 touchdowns are right on mark.
Interceptions? 80 vs. Carr's 53. Sounds to me like Carr is making better decisions than he was. How many games were lost due to Carr throwing an INT?
Jake improved though. He did get better under Kubiak, but was like making a Hyundai into a Porsche. You can only get so far on it before you decide the cost isn't worth it.
Carr is showing he makes better decisions, and with Kubiak in his face all the time, it stands to reason he can develop into the QB we need.
Plummer and Carr are the not the same quarterback. The point was that Plummer has shown improvement under Kubiak, even if his head isn't in the game. Carr has shown he WANTS to be able to succeed. He has the tools he needs to do this now. If he doesn't succeed, then move on. If he does, it's because he was given the necessary tools for success... something he hasn't had.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
Maybe you are referring to Plummer in his third year, 1998, when he started 16 games and led the Cardinals to a 9-7 record, throwing 17 TDs and 20 INTs and notching a QB rating of 75.0. That was alright ... but what about 1999, when he started 11 games and threw 9 TDs, 24 INTs, 2111 yards, and a QB rating of 50.3, on the way to a 6-10 record? Or possibly the Jake Plummer who in 2000 led his team to a 3-13 record, started 14 games and notched a QB rating of 66.0 (13 TDs, 21 INTs, 2946 yards)? How about the Plummer of 2002 (his sixth year), where he led the Cardinals to an astounding 5-11 record, threw 18 TDs, 20 INTs, 2972 yards, and a QB rating of 65.7?
Carr has shown plenty of "hints of talent" in his career to date. If you watched his games, if you watched him play, you could see the guy had what it takes to win ... David has it, and it was always obvious.
thunderkyss said:
Dude, if you refuse to understand, grasp, or deal with the basic premise that our expansion team was awful and was very marginally improved upon -- and at points sabotaged -- by Capers and Casserly, then I don't know what to say toward convincing you. I could point to the scores of our ex-players and coaching staff who are as of today unemployed, but that sort of discussion reeks of fact, so I presume you'll run from that as well.
thunderkyss said:
I think he can as well.
thunderkyss said:
What's amazing about your statement is that you are issuing a colossal assumption as fact. What's worse is that it is fraudulently incorrect. There have been many documented instances of Carr working with his receivers, staying after the minimum practice, and working out above and beyond the basic mandatory sessions.
thunderkyss said:
I don't think anyone is denying that David Carr underperformed in 05.
thunderkyss said:
There are degrees and its your right to draw the line differently.
thunderkyss said:
If only it were that simple. You're right; there are many instances in which an NFL quarterback has deliberately flaunted the coaches' playcall and run his own offense, successfully I might add.
thunderkyss said:
Gary Kubiak is staking his job on Carr being that QB. Many other people agree.
There is plenty of reasonable basis for disliking David Carr, without having to outright make things up to support your case. You might as well have gone with the long hair argument; that at least is a verifable fact, let alone debating a proper causal effect.
kbourda
Veteran
Also one advantage Plummer has over Carr in all of this is that at least Plummer had previous experience in running the type of offense that was used by Denver. Like it or not, i'd be suprised if Carr can pick up the WCO in one year. Honestly, I don't want him to do bad. But at the same time running the WCO for the first time has shown me otherwise.
jerek said:
If it makes you feel any better...... I didn't think we had seen all that Jake Plummer was capable of until his sixth year... I totally agreed with the change of scenery, but didn't care to follow him after he left Arizona.... for some reason I always wanted him to succeed in Arizona...
And..... I agree... his stats aren't very flattering... but I personally saw a good QB on a bad team when I watched Plummer, Kitna, and Harrington...
It's just my opinion, but I only see an avg QB on a bad team when I see David Carr. But that's just me.
uh..... no, it's not that obvious really....jerek said:
did you see a 2-14 season coming in 2006?? 8-8?? 9-7?? I saw at least 10 wins..... at least.jerek said:
define running.....jerek said:
jerek said:
Prior to 2006?? I'm sorry, but I don't recall any....... I have admitted to having a very short memory... but I think I would have liked to have seen something like that, and would have remembered....
But I won't call you a liar......... I'll just say I must have missed them.... every single one of them.
jerek said:
Sounds like it.
that's neither here nor there....... that part of my argument was mainly for the guys who say David took sacks to keep the clock running...... because Capers told him to..... something I refuse to believe.jerek said:
jerek said:
What did I make up?? that I bet Plummer had more wins his first 4 years, or that I saw more promise in Plummer through his first four years?? here is something else I'll fabricate...... I see more promise in Aaron Brooks, and Joey Harrington...
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
You could have said that from the top ... so I could conveniently ignore the rest of your opinions for the remainder of my life.
Sorry dude, it's your opinion and it's your right to have it, but that just speaks louder than anything you've said to this point.
TwinSisters
Veteran
texan279 said:
Because Plummer was ranked in the top 5 QBs in his second season on 9-7 season and then again top 10 on a 7-9 season. That earns him at least some reason to be kept.
EDIT:
To add he had Vince Tobin, no real running game, a few highlight reels of WRs ( Boston/Moore ), no real TEs, and a defense that had some reputation, but always seemed to fall short when stacked up against the other 30 teams in the NFL. ( esp. when talking about points allowed )
EDIT II:
It should also be added that Capers, Fangio, McGinnis are all Tobin guys. Sherman I suppose endorses him also ( or did at one time )
Kitna-Harrington... TK you are on your own there. Kitna and Harrington are only marginally better or worse than Carr.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
I try to stay out of these kind of threads now, because they tend to go nowhere and just limp along for days like a wounded animal.........but
Since I'm now stationed in Michigan and had the opportunity to watch every Lions game. (The Texans weren't giving me much reason to drive to the sports bar on a sunday the 2nd half of the season)
Joey Harrington is horrible, he's a horrible QB playing on a avg/not that bad of a team.
The man can't hit a lateral moving target to save his life, either due to accuracy or arm strength, I think both apply here.
Every slant route or a receiver going accross the middle is null and void. By the time Joey's ball gets there the receiver is gone or he would throw it before the receiver ever got there, his vision and timing sucks. Joey threw 12 picks last year and just about every pick came on plays like this.
His footwork is equally horrible and he was impatient and looked scared. People knock Carr for taking sacks, Joey doesn't even let plays develop. He has never completed over 57% of his passes, Joey is horrible. Kitna is not the answer, but I bet he will net them atleast 4 more wins and keep the seat warm until another QB is groomed.
Joey will be another career backup.
Okay I'm done with my rant now.
Carr Bomb said:
Overall, a great post..... but...
#1, I didn't say I think Kitna has more potential than Carr....... far as I'm concerned, they are about equally mundane and avg..... If I were any other team than the Texans, and I had to choose between Carr for $8 million, or Kitna for $2 million, I'd take Kitna, and believe I got the better value.
However, I do understand the Texans paying David.... I'm not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, but It would have taken a few sleepless nights before I decided one way or the other.
Secondly..... if you're one of those guys who thinks Mooch(unemployed Mooch as far as I know) ever had what it takes to be called a good coach, then there isn't anything I can say that will change your mind about Joey Harrington.
And there is no way I am ever going to believe the Detroit Lions have ever (in that teams entire history) fielded a better team than what we've put on the field in the last 4 years...... I just won't believe it.
And I'll take a guy that at least throws the ball, and give his team a chance to win........ over a guy who eats it every time.......
jerek said:
looking at the stats, can you tell me that Joey is that different from Carr?? didn't we just go over this.... damn near equal... factor in sacks, ints, tDs, yards lost, how many times those sacks turned into three and outs....... that kind of thing. They really aren't that different.
and Brooks woops Carr's you know what, all day long if we're just looking at stats.
Carr's got a stronger arm than Joey, I'll give you that..... but Carr ain't got nothing on Brooks.
EDIT: I'll add....... that I pray to god... David throws for 3800 yards in '06....... but I bet Aaron Brookes(sp) beats that.....
the wonger need food
All Pro
thunderkyss said:
And Brooks will single-handedly lose at least 5 games with his dumb mistakes.
texan279 said:
Plummer didn't get 6 years...... Plummer earned six years.....
TwinSisters said:
Thankyou TwinSister...... Kitna & David, I agree....... I still think Harrington hasn't got a fair shot in this league yet........ no better than Carr has.
Someone made the comment that Joey doesn't give plays time to develop.... I do agree with that, and I was very disappointed when I started to see him leave the pocket early....... but that's what happens to QBs with poor offensive lines.... some leave the pocket early and try to make something out of nothing..... others..... assume the fetal position.
texan279
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
And what did Plummer do in his 3rd and 4th season? In his first 2 seasons, Plummer completed 57% of his passes, threw for 5940 yards, 32 TD's and 35 INT's with a QB rating of 74.3 and the Card's went 13-19. In his 3rd and 4th season, he completed 55% of his passes, threw for 5057 yards, 22 TD's and 45 INT's with a QB rating of 59.2 and the Card's went 9-23. So after playing decent football his first two years, Plummer's play declined dramatically, so he gets a free pass until year six. Now, carr's first two seasons he completed 54% of his passes, threw for 4605 yards, 18 TD's and 28 INT's for a rating of 65 and the Texans went 9-23. In Carr's 3rd and 4th season, he completed 60% of his passes, threw for 6019 yards, 30 TD's and 25 INT's for a rating of 80.3 and the Texans went 9-23. So Plummer's play declines from seasons one and two to seasons 3 and 4 that allows him a free pass to year six while Carr's play improves from seasons one and two to seasons three and four and that means that Carr doesn't get a pass until season six? If this is Plummer "earing six years" as TK put it, then Carr has earned himself 8 years...
the wonger need food said:
no.... he's got a coach now that knows how to act like a coach.... not that unemployed fella who gave him free reign, with no fear of being held accountable for anything.....
of all his goof-ups, I only recall Hazz getting on Aaron once......... he'll blame everything and everybody before he blamed Aaron.
texan279 said:
Which Arizona Cardinal ran for 1000 yards in any of Jake's first six years?? Which reciever went to the pro-Bowl?? Jake was the Cardinals...
Edit:
Oh........ I'm not saying David doesn't belong here. Just saying he sucked.... I expect him to suck somewhat.... Capers, Line....... etc........ but not in the way that he sucked.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
thunderkyss said:
Sometimes I think you actually mean these things when you say them.
Statwise, I will give Aaron Brooks the edge, but once again you're taking numbers outside of a context. Brooks didn't really play his first two years: so are we saying Carr would be better had he sat his first two years, or are we saying that the two should be measured equally through their first four years? In either event, Brooks built his numbers with a semi-established (I say semi- because they are the Saints) team that enjoyed one of the very weakest conferences and strength of schedules in the NFL. Brooks threw close to 100 more passes per season than DC and arguably had a better receiver tandem to work with.
Harrington also played in a weaker conference, threw about 100 more balls per season than Carr, and yet finished with a weaker QB rating in every season. Now, the Lions are just as much a disaster as the Texans were management wise, and the difference in their stats is not that much, so I'll grant that the jury might be out on Joey as well. That said, there is no comparison between arm strength and toughness.
At the end of the day there is still no comparison in offensive lines betweem Carr's and either Brooks' or Harrington's. As was published on the board awhile back, video review revealed that only 20 sacks in 2005 were Carr's fault. Still a lot, and without doubt something Carr needs to work on, but QB stats to do not tell the whole story.
I pointed out Plummer's stats earlier because you were making a really colossal stretch in comparing the two and asserting that Plummer was somehow markedly better. Statistically they were similar and both began their careers on crappy teams.
....... sometimes I do.....jerek said:
sometimes..
Good Points... Except I'll take Andre & Bradford/Gaffney over Joe Horn and Dante Stallworthjerek said:
but that's me.
Green Bay..... Minnesota....jerek said:
Indy.... Jacksonville.....
Marginally more difficult.....
hmm.......... so you're saying Aaron and Joey were running around like that for the heck of it......... had nothing to do with a pourous offensive line?? true enough they didn't get sacked as often as David did. and the only stat we look at when judging offensive lines is sacks given up........ so I guess we really can't compare..jerek said:
jerek said:
My assessment was regardless of stats....... I thought Jake showed promise in his early years in Arizona. Jake was on a bad team...... Carr was on a bad team...... I thought Jake showed promise..... I think David has shown that he is tough....
I don't have a problem with David..... I have a problem with people ragging on Tj, Babin, Buchannon, Wade, Wand, Peek, McKinney, even replacing DD........
But mention Carr....... and it was the coaching...... the same coaching those other guys had..... look back, on this thread...... that is what is being said..... Everybody else just flat out sucks....... but David Carr.... he played bad, because he had bad coaches.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
thunderkyss said:
It's getting harder and harder for you to disguise the bias, thunderkyss.
I am calling you out. Right now. Show me that stats that prove that Carr has sucked, especially in the past two years. Show me the stats that contradict the fact that he threw for 3500 yards in 2004, with more TDs than INTs.
Maybe you dont want to play the stat swap game? I really dont think that that has ever been your gig. Tell me what about him, as a player, makes him so terrible.
I am calling you out. Don't hide.... I won't. Don't stutter.... I won't. Don't back down.... because I will definitely NOT.
It is time for the Carr haters to man up and stop taking the cheap shots. Let's rumble. I have all night.