The Koolaide in me wants to believe this is how OB install's his offense. We'll see a little more & a little more with each passing week.
It's all I've got left to hold on to.
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Bill O'Brien - Offensive Scheme?
- Thread starter silvrhand
- Start date
The Koolaide in me wants to believe this is how OB install's his offense. We'll see a little more & a little more with each passing week.
It's all I've got left to hold on to.
Tacks?
^^^^
This
Do you think Godsey is the defacto OC?
I like the fact that Arians who was a very experience OC hired Tom Moore to be his OC when he became HC at Arizona.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
What you're saying right there goes against everything I've heard about how this offense is supposed to work.
From the way this offense has been described, the routes are grouped into packages. When you call specific code words at the line, it changes up the entire route list for ALL the receivers on that side of the line. So if you have three receivers on that side and you say "ghost", it tells all three receivers to do a specific combination of routes.
That's what is supposed to be so adaptable and why this is supposed to be an easy to audible system
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
I see more Penn State than I do Patriots offense to be honest.
So if we're lined up strong left does "ghost" mean the same route combo that it would if we were strong right?
Or does that mean when the QB calls "ghost" at the line, does everyone shift positions to run the ghost combo?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
According to what I've seen and heard, he calls ghost to the side that has the personnel for it. And like the West Coast route tree, the routes flip depending on the side you're on.
So let's say "ghost" was two players on a side where the inside guy runs an out and the outside guy runs a skinny post. The QB comes to the line, sees some sort of quarters coverage or something on one side, and he calls ghost to that side and they run the routes; the outside guy taking the coverage deep while the inside guy fills the hole left underneath. If they're in 4-wide set with 2 receivers on both sides, he could call ghost to both sides.
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The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Better not criticize OB .... he's above reproach.
And that's just taking the whole discussion, at least on my part, the completely wrong way.
I've even said this looks like what was going on at Penn State more than New England.
What I'm saying is that the problems we're seeing isn't a problem with the offense, it's not a problem with certain routes not existing in the playbook, it's a problem with what's being called and how it's being called. Don't look at a couple of example plays taken out of context that don't have any routes over the middle and then jump to some the conclusion that we don't have any routes over the middle in the playbook.
It could be a problem with Fitz not getting his guys into the right places doing the right things (which could be communication issues or thought process issues) OR it could be a problem with OB not gameplanning properly and preparing Fitz properly to get his guys into the right places. I'm not absolving OB from being part of the problem here... all I've been saying is that the playbook itself is not the problem... just like the playbook was not the problem with Kubiak.
The reason Fitz might still be starting is because the problem with the offense has been OB/Godsey and OB's not going to pull Fitz in that case.
H
humblegeo
Guest
Let me say this. We have lost 3 of the last 4. His offensive scheme isn't working. That's why all the expressions of disgust on his face on the sideline camera shots. The only way this offense seems to be able to move the ball is when Foster is having an unbelievable day running. The defense and special teams seem to score more TDs than our offense.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You're right that we don't have all the details to exactly determine the causes. What we do know is we have an offense which doesn't stretch the field, barely employs TEs, largely ignores the middle of the field, worse than minimally employing play action for some reason inexplicably puts the RB out wide...and is marginally effective, generously, if they don't have to score quickly. I'm happy holding off on judging the system for now and laying it at the feet of the QB and/or play caller. But like people used to clamor for in game adjustments, I'm looking for in between game adjustments and not seeing any. Show me something different against the Steelers - new QB, TEs getting 6+ receptions, hey maybe a few boots to the right after gashing them rushing to the left, etc.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I don't disagree with any of that in particular. I just think blaming the offensive system for the problem is like blaming Kubiak's offensive system and calling it outdated when that was not the issue.
OB has said that every week is a different thing, with different intentions to attack different weaknesses and create different mismatches. Like you, i have not seen that happen. I haven't seen adjustments BEFORE halftime like OB said we were going to see.
I don't know if that's Fitz's problem or OB's problem. At the beginning of the season, I thought it was Fitz and that getting Mallett, a guy who has been using these concepts for several years, would resolve it. But if OB's not switching over to Mallett, then I was wrong.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Or OB is wrong.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I don't think there is a whole lot of changing in a game that OB can really do. With Fitz back there, he is pretty damn limited with what he can try and what he can ask. You have to remember that Fitz is a turnover machine. OB doesn't want to play high risk football with a TO machine like Fitz who will throw games away at will.
I am seeing exactly what I expected to see this season. A grind it out football team that wants to run the ball and slow the clock and win ugly games. That is exactly what we're seeing. We can't win every close every game of course, but we have won at least two of them and we have lost two of them. I don't think you are going to see much of a change at all until this team gets a QB where we can play a lot more versatile.
Yeah, life is really difficult when you believe everything "they" tell you.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well sorry but you or anyone else that thought this offense would look any different than what I just described were being foolish, unrealistic, and wishful. We don't have the pieces to do what you are asking and mainly because of Fitz. You loved his draft and felt like he was slowly building the interior first and that was the right way. Dont ***** about it now as if we have the collective group to look like some Tom Brady ran offense. We dont have a general that physically pull that off. We have a team that is built to play in ugly games and minimize TO's. That is what OB is attempting to do.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Exactly...you had to know that with Fitz under center that half of what BoB said we were and what he was going to attempt to do was wishful thinking. You also have to know that to really implement changes like he's saying you have to stay on the field long enough to execute that. They've been 3 and out machines in the 1st qtr of games. That's not enough time or plays to really put in adjustments to get a defense thinking.
If you look at Fitzpatrick's body of work , he looks nothing like the guy who played in STL , TinBred or Buffalo. He made a LOT of big plays in those places .... But he was also prone to making a lot of mistakes. He was known as a poor man's Bret Favre , a gunslinger. Not a "game manager."
This version of Fitzpatrick is significantly handcuffed .... So he doesn't make those mistakes but the problem is that he's not making the big play either.
This is the "production" I expected .... Just not how I expected it to come about.
As for the physical part .... Fitz has better physical tools (arm / mobility) than Brady .... He just doesn't have the accuracy or ability to read defenses on his level.
My thoughts, as well. It's like trying to compete in the Indy 500 while driving a 1985 Buick LeSabre.
What I've seen from Fitzpatrick is exactly what I expected to see. Dude is not a starting-caliber QB. Dude couldn't even beat out Jake Locker last year in Tennessee.
In the end, though, it still comes back to O'Brien. He's the one hitching his wagon to Fitz, and he's the one with the desk where the buck stops.
I know it's foolish to think this leopard will change his spots, but I've got nothing left to hang on to. It's just as silly to think Mallet will come in & be better right off the bat.
But we've seen what New England's offense looked like when the WRs weren't on the same page... Hopefully we're seeing an extension of that with the QB being as big a part of the problem.
New England got it together, supposedly, after 5 weeks... Hopefully it'll start clicking for us soon. Not that Fitz will ever be Brady, but maybe he can be that version of Cassell (why didn't we just sign Cassell?)....
At the very least, at least Fitz finally found Andre. Hopefully he'll remember what Hopkins looks like.
Like I said above , the results are on par with what I expected record wise .... Just how they get there isn't what I expected.
I expected Fitzpatrick to be the mistake prone gunslinger he's been in the past , not the mistake prone game manager he has been so far.
As for not beating out Locker .... I wonder what Lockers draft status had to do with that decision as teams don't just give up on early draft picks and Locker was the #8 overall pick in 2011 , going into his 3rd season last year.
I don't think its silly to think Mallett COULD come in and be better from the get go .... Its just not likely because he was such a late pick up but the deeper we get into the season , the less that matters. He should have it down soon if not already.
Are we sure its the QB that's the problem ??
OB stated that Fitz plays well when the team does .... and as I have mentioned numerous times , this offense isn't conducive to WR's getting open , they have to beat their guy without the assistance of complicated route combinations AND Fitz has to throw strikes. Thinking both of those things are going to happen at the same time is asking a lot IMO.
They also don't use much if any play action , which seems idiotic to me when you have Foster to exploit in that manner - even if Fitz fakes aren't on par with that of Schaub who could fake out the damn camera man 3-4 times a game.
NE got it together after some struggles , but they have a future hall of famer under center .... He can make mediocre WR's look like ALL PRO's.
Why didn't they just sign Cassell ?? ....@$#* if I know , couldn't have been much worse than what we've seen thus far. He's not good either .... doubt the results would be any different.
Either Mallett (or Savage) shows he is the answer .... or we're doing this QB carousel again next season .... which is why they should have taken a shot with one of HWWNBMv2.0 , Manziel , GloveWater or Garappolo ..... I hate to waste another season waiting on a QB to adjust to the NFL.
Fitz seems to lock on his target, the OL is having a hard time adjusting to wrinkles thrown at them by the opposing defense and the WR seem to be running rigid routes and not getting separation. Add to the above the coaching staff is keeping it really basic. The game needs to slow down for all.
On a good note, we got foster and Watt
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
One thing I wish OB would do is incorporate the zone stretch and the bootleg off of that.
On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.
This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.
Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.
We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.
I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.
On the Bootleg when you get the defense flowing and pull the ball, you can get creative with the routes you run and you'll have guys running wide open. When we played NE in the play offs they even ran a variation of it and gashed us with it.
This team is already built for that type of action. The players know how to execute it. Just have to get Fitz up to speed, but that shouldn't be too hard. And with Fitz mobility that would be an added element that we'd have on those roll outs. The threat of him scrambling for yards would cause defenders to creep up and open up a lot of lanes for passes.
Heck, even throw in some of that Chip Kelly style offense.
We are supposed to be multiple. Lets see it. Start incorporating more things. More wrinkles.
I get how hard it is to learn a system. But these guys are NFL players. It's all they have to do.
They do seem to play better when they are moving at a faster pace
I never expected to see Fitz the gunslinger in this offense. That's not how it's designed. It uses a modified Erhardt-Perkins system, but with timing patterns seen in WCO offenses. Based on how the Patriots utilize it, I do not recall seeing Brady use play-action much at all.
I think the game manager thing is O'Brien's attempt to mitigate mistakes by his QB. Gunslingers are too risky, and his downside is far greater that his upside.
As far as Locker vs. Fitz, you could be right about draft position. I've never been impressed with either QB. Fitz has had moments of being decent in the past decade, but he's always been very inconsistent. There is a reason this is his fifth team in 10 years.
It's not the "look" of the offense I was talking about. It's the adaptability O'Brien claimed we would implement. And that quote was from Sept 4th. He'd had all spring and summer to evaluate his squad. He should have known by the end of OTAs/mini-camp/training camp/pre-season what he had to work with and how well they were picking up the new system.
And regarding the draft, you aren't remembering that *I* wanted Matthews or Robinson because I didn't have much faith in Newton at RT. I also wanted an ILB who could cover and play the run because none of us knew if Cushing would come back whole. Go back and check the "who should we pick @ 1-1 poll. My vote was for Robinson.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Kudos to you for finally being a guy that remembers the Fitzpatrick that I do. Fitz used to have a pretty strong arm. He actually had one strong year in Buffalo and got awarded a nice contract where he threw for almost 30 TD's one year. What the hell happened to that guy's arm??? WHere did it go? I don't ever remember seeing this noodle arm dude before, but now he can't hit a guy to save his life that is only 10 yards away and his arm strength is pathetic. He simply isn't capable of making most throws that you need your QB to make.
Again, he can't do it nearly consistent enough or even at all.
He does not have anywhere near the arm that Brady does. Not saying that Brady's arm is super strong now days, but it is way more accurate than Fitz on his worst day. Fitz can scramble pretty well. That is his only strength.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well how do you expect him to have this adapting ability when his offense can only do a few things? They don't have the ability to adapt with all of these new strategies if they can't execute what they want to do. It is a very limited offense that is at the mercy of Fitz's few plays a game that he doesn't screw up. This is a one dimensional offense, and it can't really change until a guy gets in there that can do more.
I meant the draft as a whole. I don't think it will be a good one when we look at it in hind sight a few years from now. Other than the Clowney pick though, I won't be upset still. It looked like a draft where a new coach was building the trenches which is the right direction to go if you ask me. That doesn't mean it will work just because you tried though.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
When you can't convert a 3rd down to save your life, there's alot of things you don't get a chance to do. Which is why i think BoB is taking the line he is of "guys just need to play better". Getting even average better play from everyone would probably allow the offense to stay on the field more & incorporate alot of what you're saying here.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Serious chicken and egg problem.
Are you implying that better play from the QB position can lead to all the other positions playing better?
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
i think he means is it really just the qb who needs to play better for everyone on offense to be better...... or is it the opposite of that.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I'm saying it can work either way. Better play from the QB making the OL or receivers look better, or better play from OL and receivers making the QB look better.
On top of that, as I mentioned in the Mallett thread, dumbing down the offense IMO makes everyone look worse if done for any length of time because it makes things easier for the D. If you play only a basic O, everyone has to perform perfectly.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
At least we have or 10+ screens a game.
michaelm
vox nihili
That is pretty much a football maxim.