Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Ok ... is it quality youth ?
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All encompassing Bill O'Brien thread
- Thread starter False Start
- Start date
Ok ... is it quality youth ?
ColeThornton
Waterboy
But that is the whole point! As a fan, I can take losing a whole lot better if at least my team/organization is accountable and willing to change to try and get better instead of just accepting the way things are. And yes, if Jimbo doesn't get the job done, the Aggies will try someone else... that's the point!
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Speedy
Former Yeller Dweller
Just mentioned that exact sentiment in another thread. Not a fan of OB, but I wouldn't mind him sticking around if the Texans made a move at GM.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-fine-returning-without-a-contract-extension/
Sounds like he is betting on himself and doesn’t mind not getting renewed if that happens.
Hmm...got to admire the bravado.
Sounds like he is betting on himself and doesn’t mind not getting renewed if that happens.
Hmm...got to admire the bravado.
Tolar's Ghost
Waterboy
When I saw Sumlin's name, I wondered if you were going to suggest him as a replacement for O'B...
But how silly of me...
Well, he is used to working with a free-lancing quarterback...And he's considered a good offensive mind...The players are bound to like him...
Oh, never mind.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Who wouldn't want to look like a genius "coaching" Deshaun Watson?
Sounds like he doesn't expect any other job offers
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
ColeThornton
Waterboy
So your sample size is one team. Since 1988, every team in the NFL has played in a conference championship game except for the Houston Texans. Do you have any idea how many coaching changes there have been since 1988? You want to cite the Cleveland Browns... I'll cite the entire league!
How mant other team have such a short leash?
ColeThornton
Waterboy
The average NFL head coach lasts barely 4 seasons. Half the NFL head coaches have lasted 3 seasons or less. Head coaches with a losing record after 4 seasons and 4-11 in their last year... you can figure what kind of leash other franchises would have. But Texan fans just don't seem to expect as much as others, so I guess in that sense we get what we deserve. There have been many head coaches make the conference championship game in their first four years just during the Texans history. Our head coach is 4-11 in his fourth year and there's been talk about an extension... amazing.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
Fire him, don’t fire him.
Whatever.
Whatever.
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
Have you been blind to what has unfolded during this season? It's unprecedented. Due to injuries, Texans set a NFL record for using the most players in a season with 77 with one week left.
Jesus Christo..
TejasTom
All Pro
Guess I’m hungry. I read that as Whataburger.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
QFT
This was the first season since 02 where I didn't watch 3-4 games. I began blowing them off when Watt and Mercilus went down. Watson reeled me back in a little only to kick me in the sack and throw me back.
I see myself becoming less and less entertained as time goes by with Rick Smith as the acting GM. IMO, games are won and lost in the trenches and he's failed that group on the offensive side of the ball. Additionally, his supposed strength was DBs. We've seen how that looks without a pass rush.
Side note: I've said it before, but I think Vrabel has been vastly overrated.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Why you're quoting 1988 is beyond me as the Texans wouldn't be in existence for another decade or so.
But If you go across the league you can see it loud and clear. franchises that have had the most success in the last decade or so since the Texans have been in existence are actually those who've had the least amount of instability at the HC level....... basically Pitt, GB, NE, Baltimore, Seattle & probably NYG where Coughlin seemed like he won a SB every time fans in NY were trying to push him out. The rest of the league though.............. by and large has been churning HC's & GM's at the behest of fans alot of the times & not surprisingly it has resulted in very little success save for a playoff appearance here and there...........then there's the Marvin Lewis experiment in Cincy.
So I only cited the Browns b/c they've been the epitome of dysfunction since the Texans have come into existence employing the kind of strategy you're talking about to the extreme. Could've easily used the Dolphins.....or the Bills....or the Rams....or the Jags....or the Raiders or really any team whose had 10 plus year stretches of no success of any kind despite making all kinds of moves that "excite" the fan base.
This ain't college bro where all it might take is the right HC to be brought in at a "have" program to become a contender year in year out.
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zshawn10
All Pro
It's Lance Z so beware but mentions a name he's hearing as a replacement for BoB... Marvin Lewis:
http://www.podcastarena.com/thebench/
Starts around the 10:00 min mark of 12/26 Hour 1
Says it's because Lewis "plays well" with the GM and owner.
Lance Z:
...I don't see Bill O'Brien sticking around. Bring a new coach in and the new name I heard is not gonna make Houston happy. Marvin Lewis. I had someone tell me around league circles they've looked at Frank Reich & Marvin Lewis. If you think about it, Marvin Lewis plays nice with the GM, plays nice with the owner(not Bill O'Brien's deal), has had some 'success' in Cincinnati.
(Other guy with Lance) When you say Cincinnati, they go to jail & can't win in the playoffs.
Most of Houston is really pissed off. I don't know if it's Bob McNair, Rick Smith...it's never one thing. If you can say it's one thing, it's easier to fix. This is an organizational issue because it's now 15 years old. If you don't expect great things....at some point you say when does the GM take the heat? If it's not the head coaches, if we decide it wasn't Kubiak and wasn't O'Brien, they're gone now & we're having the same thing, then it's a trickle up scenario I guess.
http://www.podcastarena.com/thebench/
Starts around the 10:00 min mark of 12/26 Hour 1
Says it's because Lewis "plays well" with the GM and owner.
Lance Z:
...I don't see Bill O'Brien sticking around. Bring a new coach in and the new name I heard is not gonna make Houston happy. Marvin Lewis. I had someone tell me around league circles they've looked at Frank Reich & Marvin Lewis. If you think about it, Marvin Lewis plays nice with the GM, plays nice with the owner(not Bill O'Brien's deal), has had some 'success' in Cincinnati.
(Other guy with Lance) When you say Cincinnati, they go to jail & can't win in the playoffs.
Most of Houston is really pissed off. I don't know if it's Bob McNair, Rick Smith...it's never one thing. If you can say it's one thing, it's easier to fix. This is an organizational issue because it's now 15 years old. If you don't expect great things....at some point you say when does the GM take the heat? If it's not the head coaches, if we decide it wasn't Kubiak and wasn't O'Brien, they're gone now & we're having the same thing, then it's a trickle up scenario I guess.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
pretty much.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Marvin Lewis is a complete non-starter for me. I'm out for the duration of the "Marvin Lewis Era" if that happens. All that says to me is that the "Teflon GM" just hired a guy that will never disagree with him and who presents absolutely no threat whatsoever to his power base. This is Ladd Herzeg hiring Ed Biles or Hugh Campbell all over again.
cuppacoffee
Resident Grouch
I hope all the fire Obrien posters get their wish/ and get Marvin.
What is it that the godfathers first two choices have in common? Besides both being losers.
What is it that the godfathers first two choices have in common? Besides both being losers.
Saved me a lot of typing
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
If they truly are looking at Marvin Lewis over OB - then this just solidified the problem is more Rick Smith than OB.
OB has his faults for sure - but I am firmly in the position that if I had to choose between the two - give me OB.
Marvin Lewis? They are looking for a pacifist and not a person with an actual opinion.
ColeThornton
Waterboy
OK, so how many coaches have made it to the AFC/NFC championship game, in their first four seasons, just during the Texans history... hmmm
Jon Gruden, Andy Reid, John Fox, Jim Mora, Lovie Smith, Tom Coflin, Mike McCarthy, Ken Whisenhunt, Sean Payton, Brad Childers, Jim Harbaugh, Pete Carol, Bruce Arians, Dan Quinn, Bill Callahan, Tony Dungy, Norv Turner, John Harbaugh, Jim Caldwell, Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin, John Fox etc... etc...
Is that relevant enough?
Well of course, it's like you always find it the last place you look. You quit looking once you find it! All of the teams you mentioned made it to an AFC/NFC championship within the first four years of their respective coaches. How many of those teams would have let a coach stay if they had a losing record after 4, 5, 6, 7 years? Especially if they played in the weakest division in the league for most of those years. If you go across the league, you can see it loud and clear, the vast majority of teams keep looking until they find a coach that can take them deep into the playoffs. Some seldom do, but they don't give up for the sake of "stability".
This ain't college bro where a program can dominate for decades due to money, recruiting, facilities, loyalties, reputations etc... this is the NFL which is based on parity. A salary cap, a draft, scheduling etc... all designed to give advantages to weaker teams. This is the league built for quick turnarounds. Your college analogy makes no sense at all. How often does a bad college program turn around and be ranked in the top four in four years.... let's see, like almost never. Could I name 50 college teams that haven't been ranked in the final four in the last 30 years. Well 31 of 32 NFL teams have made it in the last 30 years! Your college analogy proves changing coaches in the NFL till you find a good one is the way to go, because a coach in the NFL can make the difference quickly so much more often than in college. I gave you over 20 examples why, just during the Texans history.
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Mr teX
Hall of Fame
First, im not the guy who brought the college thing into this...you did when you were comparing the "exciting" things A&M does that shows they're trying to win with what the Texans have done....all those exciting moves A&m have made has brought them exactly 1 Big time BCS bowl appearance in the last 20 years....As I said, those moves make you feel better, but more than likely that kinda crap doesn't necessarily translate to wins.
2nd, OB didn't even have an overall losing record until this year with this team where the bottom dropped out. which just happens to be his 4th year here......which just happens to tip his overall record to sub .500. Nevermind that this is his 1st losing season in 4 years since arriving. If he'd have started out his career here with at least 1 losing season, you would've been talking about his record after 3 instead of 4, its all relative to your bias.
Spare me the weakest division argument. It really holds no weight given how the Patriots have lorded over the inept AFC East riding that to home field throughout the playoffs for the last 15-17 years.
The bottom line is you're looking at this with bias.
teams keep looking and they keep failing.....Often churning the same guys over & over and over with little to no success. & even when they do find a guy that leads them to a little success like going to an AFC championship game, they still keep doing the same thing. Of all the guys you named up there who took their respective teams to championship games, how many of those coaches are still in place at the respective teams they took? literally only 3...from those same franchises that i mentioned earlier. What, did all those guys u listed all of sudden forget how to coach?
It's easy to turn a team around in 1 year & get them to the playoffs...it's much harder to turn a team into a year over year contender and win a SB. There are certain things you need in place to make that happen.
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ugh. . .you're right, but unfortunately, we have sunken so low in Texans nation that our standards are barely above the Cleveland Browns.
Well said, man. tbh, I have been losing interest in pro sports over the years. I had pretty much given up on baseball until the Astros sucked me back into it with their amazing postseason. I was feeling the same old 'blah' feeling about the Texans until Watson started his short-lived magic. He's the only reason I will be paying attention next year. . .unless Marvin Lewis is our HC. Then I might just not care at all.
I really, really, really, really hope that LZ is just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks for page hits.
Although, this does sound like something that Bob McNair would do after keeping Rick Smith unaccountable for over a decade and being upset by O'Brien's potty mouth.
I would have to agree. Count me out on the "Marvin Lewis Era" if that happens, as well. DW4 will probably do some amazing things before they break him, but ultimately, it will be what you'd expect from the milquetoast trifecta of McNair + Smith + Lewis.
ColeThornton
Waterboy
Well then spare me all the EXCUSES! You are what your record says you are... PERIOD! You really want to bring the Patriots into a Texans discussion. Geesh if all they did was win their weak division at 9-7 it might make some sense, The Patriots are the opposite of the texans I can't believe you want to draw a similarity. Winning a weak division for them is just the beginning not the end as it is for the Texans. You really think pats fans brag about winning a weak division like Texan fans do? It's meaningless to them.
Who in the Sam Hill is expecting "a team into a year over year contender and win a SB". Is that what you're expecting? From this organization? Have you been watching at all, give me a break, all I want is one appearance in an AFC championship game and they can't even do that in 15 seasons. And don't try to turn this into a "make the playoffs" discussion, I've consistently said make a championship game that takes a good team, not one that beats 3 bad teams to win a division and then get beat 30-0 at home in the playoffs.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
Real talk, who gives a crap about what fans want? You're talking about millions of people all of whom have an idea about what should be done based on the limited info we do get. Professional sports organizations don't and shouldn't function like that. Its not about what we as fans "expect" b/c at the end of the day, every true diehard fan does expect it to be their teams' year every year regardless of the reality. The only truism is that fans will support & come out when the team wins & most don't or won't give a rats #$% how that comes to pass.
Now If all you want or expect as a fan is for them to make it to 1 conference champ game, then its you, that has a problem with expectations, not the majority of texans fans which is what you tried to infer upthread. & we obviously know where the organization and players' expectations are for every season. That's cool, do you, just don't point to a midling to bad college football program's moves as evidence of anything related to how to achieve success when said program hasn't done $%#@ for the last 2 & half decades.
Texansballer74
The Marine
So what if Marvin Lewis helps win us a SuperBowl. What will you naysayers say then? And lets not act like the Bengals have been toilet water under his coachingship. Lol He hasn't been a world beater either. But in the last 7 years, 5 years his team has been pretty good in a very strong competitive division.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
0-7 in playoffs.
In fifteen years.
And you say what if he wins a Super Bowl?
And you say half the time he has been coaching 70% of that half of the time has been good? So out of 15 years we can expect a third of the time (5years) will be ok.
Is that what you saying?
Is that you Rick McNair?
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Sounds kind of like the old "Sex Panther" line about how "60 percent of the time it works 100 percent of the time".
If Marvin Lewis helps us win a Super Bowl it will be the first time in his career that he's found his way out of the first round. Hell even Bill O'Brien has managed that.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
And it only took him 4 years opposed to 15 and counting.
Texansballer74
The Marine
Kubiak didn't win a SB as the Texans HC but went on to Denver and immediately won. So who knows, that might just happen. Change of scenery.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
I have ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.
Texansballer74
The Marine
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Texansballer74
The Marine
And we still found ourselves on the couch watching the Superbowl at home. You act as if that's worth writing home to momma. What's our current record again, 4-11. Ouch
ColeThornton
Waterboy
Then we'll just disagree, I think every business should care about their customers, in fact I believe the customers should be their number one concern. I do agree with your assessment of the Texans not giving a crap.
Sure like I said it's easy to beat 3 bad teams to win a division, O'Brien's claim to fame. So you think "this" is the guy to be a contender year after year and win a SB, a guy who can't even manage the clock, a guy who started Savage over Watson, the head coach shouldn't be the reason his team loses-
"Bill O'Brien giving Tom Brady a chance to win was the biggest coaching mistake of NFL Week 3"
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2017/9...-3-bill-o-brien-texans-patriots-touchdown-tom
"Bill O'Brien coached scared and cost the Texans an upset over the Patriots"
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/09/nfl-patriots-texans-bill-obrien-mistakes
"Bill O'Brien cost the Texans a win with the biggest coaching mistake of NFL Week 8"
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/31...8-bill-o-brien-deshaun-watson-texans-seahawks
"Bill O'Brien wasted an epic Deshaun Watson performance against the Seahawks"
https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/30...e-play-calling-deshaun-watson-texans-seahawks
So this is your next great coach. Just how many seasons are you willing to waste with on the job training for a guy who makes the "biggest mistakes of the week"? Oh, I forgot, what we think doesn't count for crap right... we're just the customers who pay for everything.
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CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Having just gone through all of your posts since joining, beginning with Watson's injury..........most everything seems to be trolling O'Brien. One play does not make or break ANY game. Watson's limited success was not because O'Brien didn't coach him well or made a coaching mistake here or there. Games were lost because a combination of lack of talent, no STs, an OL that couldn't protect the QB, injuries that hit the offense hard throughout the season, more injuries that hit the defense, a secondary that couldn't find their ass with a mirror, and a GM that sat by content to do absolutely nothing to prevent a very predictable situation. Watson proved himself, at least in the short run, to be a commendable talent. But just like a precious QB, a HC can easily be destroyed by neglect of attaining necessary supporting cast.
Texansballer74
The Marine
ColeThornton
Waterboy
Cloak O'Brien is the current target. There seems to be a consensus that Smith is untouchable so I see the best chance the Texans have to improve going forward is a better head coach. My opinion is Smith is the bigger problem I think McNair should get rid of both of them but since that isn't going to happen at least there is a chance with O'Brien, considering the rumors circulating. And I get rose colored glasses, cult like fans, the Texans have got to love them, these guys are their heroes and they can do no wrong. But once again, how many mistakes does O'Brien have to make before we realize he's not ready for prime time. I've cited several articles about Bill "Big mistake of the Week" O'Brien, are those authors trolls too? Here are articles from CBS where one of which they are actually chronicling his mistakes as there are so many of them...
"O'Brien Game Management Mistakes Cost The Texans Again"
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/obrien-game-management-mistakes-cost-the-texans-again/
"Bill O'Brien Continues Game Management Issues In Third Year As Head Coach"
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2016/11...anagement-issues-in-third-year-as-head-coach/
You would think in his fourth season he would have learned from all of his previous mistakes but his "Biggest mistake of the week" moniker was inspired by headlines this year.
Texansballer74
The Marine
If you don't stop trolling Bill O'Brien around these parts. He's mister untouchable in Doc eyes.
Personally, I's like to see RS kicked upstairs and a strong GM in the scouting area brought in since we know RS won't get fired. I woulldn't object to an extension for OB nor would I object to him leaving IF we could bring in a proven winner such as Arians
I'd prefer to see OB some more with a decent GM to get him some talent despite what he wants... including finding an OL coach
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I'm not a Bill O'Brien fan after four years. I've gone on record before as saying that a system that only works for a handful of games when everything goes perfectly right and requires you to have "Football Jesus" at the controls isn't much of a system. O'Brien has shown us an offensive machine something like 7 times and that was 6 games with Watson at the controls and one game with Fitzpatrick balling out of his mind against a poor Titans team. That's not the kind of scoring juggernaut we're looking for.
I'm not saying we should necessarily keep Bill O'Brien. I'm saying that his boss (The Godfather) and the brain trust above him is even more of a problem. Until we get someone in that GM spot who can identify talent and who has a real plan for building the team properly (from the inside out starting with the trenches) I don't know that changing the coach out by itself will make all that much difference.
I'm also saying that Marvin Lewis is far from a sure thing and I don't really want him here. Could he go to his next job and win a Super Bowl? Sure. It could happen to anybody really. I mean, Belichick was a train wreck in Cleveland. Goes to New England and becomes a football Sith Lord. Kubiak is a mixed up, in over his head OC here pretending to be a HC and goes to Denver and wins a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning's mummy under center. On the other hand Marty Schottenheimer wandered the earth for 21 seasons and no matter where he went he never got there.
Is Marvin Lewis more likely a Gary Kubiak or a Marty Schottenheimer? I'm inclined to think it's the latter. In Cincinnati he's had great players on a fairly regular basis but it's not like coming here is going to improve that much. You bring him in and let Rick do the shopping and Marvin isn't going to make much out of that.
I'm not saying we should necessarily keep Bill O'Brien. I'm saying that his boss (The Godfather) and the brain trust above him is even more of a problem. Until we get someone in that GM spot who can identify talent and who has a real plan for building the team properly (from the inside out starting with the trenches) I don't know that changing the coach out by itself will make all that much difference.
I'm also saying that Marvin Lewis is far from a sure thing and I don't really want him here. Could he go to his next job and win a Super Bowl? Sure. It could happen to anybody really. I mean, Belichick was a train wreck in Cleveland. Goes to New England and becomes a football Sith Lord. Kubiak is a mixed up, in over his head OC here pretending to be a HC and goes to Denver and wins a Super Bowl with Peyton Manning's mummy under center. On the other hand Marty Schottenheimer wandered the earth for 21 seasons and no matter where he went he never got there.
Is Marvin Lewis more likely a Gary Kubiak or a Marty Schottenheimer? I'm inclined to think it's the latter. In Cincinnati he's had great players on a fairly regular basis but it's not like coming here is going to improve that much. You bring him in and let Rick do the shopping and Marvin isn't going to make much out of that.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
CBS? Those links are straight from the Texans Radio 610 brain trust (the local CBS affiliate) which has a history of towing and protecting the "company line," ragging O'Brien, and always letting Smith and McNair slide and remain unaccountable.
TexansBull
Hall of Fame
Lewis has two 4 win seasons with the Bengals.
Just stop already. You are embarrassing yourself.
OptimisticTexan
2024 / Rebuilding Block 4 After Playoffs / Texans
In most cases, games are a team sport...win or lose...but, in O'Brien's case he's had the opportunity to dictate an outcome based on the tools at his disposal; play-calling, situational personnel and time-outs.
Based on the fact that O'Brien has made some rather bad decisions with games on the line, consecutively, for the past four seasons...it makes it more difficult to stand behind him in the hopes that the light finally goes on in tough situations in year five. The fact that O'Brien is not at fault for how a game came down to his strategic decision options is irrelevant...at that crucial moment he must have clarity to see what's needed to help the team secure a victory.
I'm only going to use one example to make my point; time running down against the Patriots and Tom Brady on the sideline...no sane HC in the NFL would want to give the ball back to TB with time on the clock. Now O'Brien knows full well that his OL is somewhat questionable in the run game when it counts in short yardage situations. I'd bet every opposing HC knows O'Brien's "MO" in this situation is to run the ball between Martin and Su'a-Filo. O'Brien didn't think after the first try that going to a different call might improve his chances of getting a first down...no, he was more than determined to run Miller 3 times to the same spot. It didn't even dawn on him that if that's the play you're going to run come hell or high water, then maybe you might want to throw opposing defenses a curve ball and put Foreman on the field with a play-action that might help keep that defense on their respective heels....especially with Watson under center. He ran the same series of plays that he's done with every QB he's had on this roster. After four years of bad situational decisions and a division that is no longer a push over....it's probably time to move on from O'Brien.
As some have mentioned on this forum, O'Brien has had major input into the draft as well as FA acquisitions sine he's been here...for this reason and almost for this reason alone, I could justify the team finding a new HC...but the rational side of me knows better than to think O'Brien was pulling the personnel strings...and for this reason and this reason alone, I'd fire RS as well.
Now, O'Brien did say, "I only coach the guys I am given" leads me to believe that he's had little to no input into personnel decisions. Remember, he made this statement after he got back from vacation and found out that Osweiler had been signed. Of course, he did change his tune to the company rhetoric later but that first statement is the one that sticks with me.
Based on the fact that O'Brien has made some rather bad decisions with games on the line, consecutively, for the past four seasons...it makes it more difficult to stand behind him in the hopes that the light finally goes on in tough situations in year five. The fact that O'Brien is not at fault for how a game came down to his strategic decision options is irrelevant...at that crucial moment he must have clarity to see what's needed to help the team secure a victory.
I'm only going to use one example to make my point; time running down against the Patriots and Tom Brady on the sideline...no sane HC in the NFL would want to give the ball back to TB with time on the clock. Now O'Brien knows full well that his OL is somewhat questionable in the run game when it counts in short yardage situations. I'd bet every opposing HC knows O'Brien's "MO" in this situation is to run the ball between Martin and Su'a-Filo. O'Brien didn't think after the first try that going to a different call might improve his chances of getting a first down...no, he was more than determined to run Miller 3 times to the same spot. It didn't even dawn on him that if that's the play you're going to run come hell or high water, then maybe you might want to throw opposing defenses a curve ball and put Foreman on the field with a play-action that might help keep that defense on their respective heels....especially with Watson under center. He ran the same series of plays that he's done with every QB he's had on this roster. After four years of bad situational decisions and a division that is no longer a push over....it's probably time to move on from O'Brien.
As some have mentioned on this forum, O'Brien has had major input into the draft as well as FA acquisitions sine he's been here...for this reason and almost for this reason alone, I could justify the team finding a new HC...but the rational side of me knows better than to think O'Brien was pulling the personnel strings...and for this reason and this reason alone, I'd fire RS as well.
Now, O'Brien did say, "I only coach the guys I am given" leads me to believe that he's had little to no input into personnel decisions. Remember, he made this statement after he got back from vacation and found out that Osweiler had been signed. Of course, he did change his tune to the company rhetoric later but that first statement is the one that sticks with me.
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