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Patriots under investigation

I don't think Brady was "generally aware" of anything to do with the actual PSI of the footballs. My honest opinion is that the balls were probably ~12.5psi (the gauges used are inaccurate and not calibrated) and I seriously doubt anyone in the Pat's organization knew about the Ideal Gas Laws. Between that and the gauges being what they were, there is little, if anything, to say that Brady did anything at all wrong.

I've done some noodling on Brady destroying his phone. I won't have company email or a token to log my laptop onto a secure VPN on my phone because it means the company can confiscate it. It's been suggested that Brady would never turn his phone over because it would be setting a precedent and he would rather take the PR hit than set that precedent.
That goes into the calculation on whether to obstruct the investigation or not. It does not absolve his obstruction, it just offers an explanation for it. The standards of evidence, burden of proof and many other things we have grown to expect in Criminal and Civil proceedings apart from Contract Law are not applicable to private contractual agreements, particularly conflict resolution.

It is common for one side to control a process in exchange for more favorable terms elsewhere in an agreement which is what happened here. I am not saying it was handled well by ANY party, but I don't think the nullification would stand up to scrutiny, though I could see it going away for PR reasons or dragging out until it becomes moot. Imagine Brady breaks a leg and is out for 6 weeks. Accept the suspension without admission of fault and get past it, you actually lose no playing time. I could see something like that.

If it is upheld, it has to get past the fairness issue which is about facts and procedure which should be spelled out in the contract. The two contract oriented (and I believe valid) approaches are breach ( I keep having to look up Breach {contract} and Breech {babies} since they're both in the spell check dictionary) or insufficiency/vagueness. The latter appears to be the root of the decision, but deferring the power to decide process and standards to one of the parties without explanation is not vague. An uneven application is not either unless an illegal reason can be shown.

Obviously there are other opinions, but the potential ramifications go far beyond the specifics and personalities of this particular case if this decision stands.
 
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Bart Hubbuch @BartHubbuch
I hope the Patriots don't think everyone outside the New England bubble will forget to check on what happens to Jastremski and McNally.​


Patriots expected to try to rehire them, perhaps keeping those non-disclosure agreements intact avoiding the potential for either talking publicly.
 
I've wondered about Jastremski and McNally. Surprised that no media outlet has talked to them, yet. And I do wonder what everyone would think if they publicly admitted that Brady knew nothing about the air pressure. I'm sure assumptions would be made that they have been paid off. :thinking:

The NFL screwed the pooch on this one, especially not having an established policy on punishment. They look foolish when they failed to conduct an investigation with Feely.

Jay Feely: I was in similar situation as Tom Brady and didn't get punished


"If anything happened -- I don't believe it did and Tom Brady maintains his innocence that nothing happened -- but if something had happened, it would've been a speeding ticket and [the NFL] reacted like it was a homicide," Feely said. "That's the metaphor I can give you."
 
I've wondered about Jastremski and McNally. Surprised that no media outlet has talked to them, yet. And I do wonder what everyone would think if they publicly admitted that Brady knew nothing about the air pressure. I'm sure assumptions would be made that they have been paid off. :thinking:

The NFL screwed the pooch on this one, especially not having an established policy on punishment. They look foolish when they failed to conduct an investigation with Feely.

Jay Feely: I was in similar situation as Tom Brady and didn't get punished


"If anything happened -- I don't believe it did and Tom Brady maintains his innocence that nothing happened -- but if something had happened, it would've been a speeding ticket and [the NFL] reacted like it was a homicide," Feely said. "That's the metaphor I can give you."
 
I've wondered about Jastremski and McNally. Surprised that no media outlet has talked to them, yet. And I do wonder what everyone would think if they publicly admitted that Brady knew nothing about the air pressure. I'm sure assumptions would be made that they have been paid off. :thinking:

The NFL screwed the pooch on this one, especially not having an established policy on punishment. They look foolish when they failed to conduct an investigation with Feely.

Jay Feely: I was in similar situation as Tom Brady and didn't get punished


"If anything happened -- I don't believe it did and Tom Brady maintains his innocence that nothing happened -- but if something had happened, it would've been a speeding ticket and [the NFL] reacted like it was a homicide," Feely said. "That's the metaphor I can give you."
I started to protest that Homicides get a lot more than a four game suspension. Then I thought about it some more and realized I was wrong.
 
I've decided upon a scenario in which I'll be happy. The NFL is appealing this, right? I want the NFL to win the appeal just in time that Brady misses a playoff game (and/or games that would have sent them to the playoffs). Then I want that to be appealed and have the NFL lose, and the owners replace Goodell. This seems like a win/win for me.

:D
 
Well, what a coincidence...
smirk.png


Judge Berman and Patriots owner hanging out...


image.jpg1_zpsqcel6wzy.jpg
 
Well, what a coincidence...
smirk.png


Judge Berman and Patriots owner hanging out...


image.jpg1_zpsqcel6wzy.jpg
Who said Judges aren't still bought and paid for? Not me. They just use a different "currency." But the hate for Goodell makes overlooking injustice/corruption much more palatable.
 
Huge story on espn.com on spygate, etc.

Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and Patriots apart

Goodell tried to assuage his bosses: He ordered the destruction of the tapes and notes, he insisted, so they couldn't be exploited again. Many in the room didn't believe it. And some would conclude it was as if Goodell, Kraft and Belichick had acted like partners, complicit in trying to sweep the scandal's details under the rug while the rest of the league was left wondering how much glory the Patriots' cheating had cost their teams. "Goodell didn't want anybody to know that his gold franchise had won Super Bowls by cheating," a senior executive whose team lost to the Patriots in a Super Bowl now says. "If that gets out, that hurts your business."

Just before he finished speaking, Goodell looked his bosses in the eye and, with dead certainty, said that from then on, cheaters would be dealt with forcefully. He promised the owners that all 32 teams would be held to the same high standards expected of players. But many owners and coaches concluded he was really only sending that message to one team: the New England Patriots.
 
I wouldn't read too much into it. Both men worked in media during different eras, and had a reason to be at the event.

The Real Story on Judge Berman and Robert Kraft
  • This party is also a business/media event
  • Kraft recently resigned from the board of directors with Viacom
  • Judge Berman was the executive vice president for the Warner Cable Company from 1978-1986
  • The NFL filed the case first in a New York Federal Court while Tom Brady and the NFLPA tried to get their case heard in Minnesota
  • Judge Berman has an impeccable reputation and served as a Federal Judge for over a decade, and was appointed a Senior Federal Judge in 2011.

Link

I think Tom Brady is guilty as hell, but there are no facts suggesting a conspiracy to absolve him.

Besides, what seems more likely? A picture at an industry event was more than a coincidence, or that the NFL under the leadership of Roger Goodell completely botched the case?
 
I wouldn't read too much into it. Both men worked in media during different eras, and had a reason to be at the event.



Link

I think Tom Brady is guilty as hell, but there are no facts suggesting a conspiracy to absolve him.

Besides, what seems more likely? A picture at an industry event was more than a coincidence, or that the NFL under the leadership of Roger Goodell completely botched the case?
I keep remembering something about the PERCEPTION being as big of a problem as the facts. Now where did I hear that?
 
NFL official Baltz was suspicious of McNally years ago

When Deflategate broke wide open, Indianapolis-based former NFL head linesman Mark Baltz wasn’t particularly surprised. More specifically, he wasn’t surprised that lockerroom attendant Jim McNally, who this week got his job back with the Patriots along with equipment assistant John Jastremski, was in the middle of the months-long investigation.

“He always asked for the footballs way, way before he was supposed to get them,’’ said Baltz, who was an NFL official from 1989-2013. Baltz spoke to WTHR.com last week, before the pair was reinstated. “If he could get them 10 or 15 minutes before he was supposed to get them, instead of the usual two minutes before the game – and there were some crews that let him do that – he would do it. I wouldn’t let him take them early, and I think he eventually figured that out because he stopped asking after a while. I probably did 10 to 15 games up there (in Foxboro, Mass.) and those first few times, he’d always ask. I always thought it was very suspicious. He certainly acted in a suspicious manner.’’

Baltz, in fact, said he reported McNally to league officials “six or eight years ago,’’ concerned not only about his early requests for the footballs, but for the way he operated before and during games.

“For an officials’ locker room attendant, I always thought he was an unusual dude,’’ Baltz said. “Most locker room guys, they sit there and if you need something, they got it for you. When you left the locker room, you’d lock the door and they’d stay right there. The other 31 teams, that’s what they would do. That was his job.

“But McNally, he was running all around like a chicken with his head cut off. Asking for the balls early. What I specifically reported him for several years ago, and I thought this was really unusual, he’d run out on the field with the footballs before the game and the next thing you know, he’s playing pitch-and-catch with (Tom) Brady. Then, next thing, he’s on the sidelines right next to (Bill) Belichick, like he’s a (bleeping) assistant coach or something.

According to reports, McNally and Jastremski will return from the Patriots in different roles from the ones they had before Deflategate. McNally cannot be a locker room attendant or handle equipment. Jastremski can no longer handle game balls. The pair were suspended during the Deflategate mess; the Patriots said the NFL told them to suspend the two men and the league said the Patriots suspended them.

Either way, both are now back – in different roles.

“He (McNally) was always worried about the footalls,’’ Baltz said. “Always. It was very odd. I reported him to the league, but never got any reaction from them. I don’t think they thought it was a big deal at the time. But (McNally) did things that 31 other locker room attendants don’t do.

“I think McNally did his homework and knew which crews he was dealing with and which crews he could get over on. `Are the footballs ready yet? Are the footballs ready.’ I’d tell him, `Yeah, they’re ready, but when we got out on the field, you can have them.’ Obviously, there were a lot of times when he’s gotten them early and had the time to let some air out of the ball, or whatever he was doing with them.

“All I know is, when he got them (the footballs), he would run. He would take off. Whether he was going somewhere and letting air out, I’m definitely suspicious, but I don’t know for sure.’’
 
Baltz, in fact, said he reported McNally to league officials “six or eight years ago,’’ concerned not only about his early requests for the footballs, but for the way he operated before and during games.

And the NFL did nothing with that information. Zilch. Nada.

This is where the NFL screwed up. They should have implemented a stated policy, along with pre-game procedures, to ensure that all teams knew of violation concerns and had checks in place to prevent it.
 
And the NFL did nothing with that information. Zilch. Nada.

While I understand that, and agree with your point, that still does not excuse cheating by the Pats. The NFL should have made a point to say "hey, you're cheating", but the absence of that formal warning or notification did not excuse the act. The pats still knew they were cheating. They wouldn't have been sneaking around hiding stuff if they felt like they were honest and above board. So yeah, the NFL should have acted differently, but in the end, it all comes down to the act of cheating. They wouldn't have had to make an issue of it if the team wasn't cheating.

It all really comes down to their attitude, if we're honest about it. It's like the example I used on here before about Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens. They both used PEDs, but one guy was contrite and one guy was an ass. No one ever talks about Pettite's use of PEDs anymore. When you take an arrogant stand, you better be right or people will delight in your demise. That's just human nature.
 
While I understand that, and agree with your point, that still does not excuse cheating by the Pats. The NFL should have made a point to say "hey, you're cheating", but the absence of that formal warning or notification did not excuse the act. The pats still knew they were cheating. They wouldn't have been sneaking around hiding stuff if they felt like they were honest and above board. So yeah, the NFL should have acted differently, but in the end, it all comes down to the act of cheating. They wouldn't have had to make an issue of it if the team wasn't cheating.

It all really comes down to their attitude, if we're honest about it. It's like the example I used on here before about Andy Pettite and Roger Clemens. They both used PEDs, but one guy was contrite and one guy was an ass. No one ever talks about Pettite's use of PEDs anymore. When you take an arrogant stand, you better be right or people will delight in your demise. That's just human nature.

I agree with you in principle. Cheating is cheating is cheating, regardless if it is PED, deflation, holding on the field, fake injury reports, or any other competitive advantage not generally allowed in the rulebook.

What sucks is that most teams have some form of cheating or another in their histories, either at an individual level or at an organizational level. The only team that I have been able to discern was squeaky clean is Tom Landry's Cowboys, and that doesn't surprise me.

The Patriots are just flavor of the month because of their consistent success. Research reveals that the 49ers dynasty was dirty, the Steelers '70's dynasty was dirty, and I'm of the cynical mind that probably all of them are dirty in some form or another (with the above exception of Landry's teams).

And personally, I do not hold Petite in any higher regard than Clemens. He might be a better human being for being honest, but in the field of sports, both are cheaters and I perceive no degrees between either of them.
 
NFL Source: Tom Brady Will Serve a Four-Game Suspension at Some Point This Season

We don't know how much stock we put into this, but during the New York-based radio show Boomer and Carton this morning, host Craig Carton dropped a bit of a bombshell with regards to the never-ending Deflategate scandal. According to him, he spoke with a "very influential person in the NFL" on Thursday who told him that the league is still pushing hard for Tom Brady to serve a four-game suspension at some point this season. If you remember, the league has appealed the ruling that a judge handed down earlier this month nullifying the suspension, and they are now trying to expedite that appeal so that Brady will be forced to miss some games.

The NFL source told Carton that there is "no doubt in his mind" that the appeal will be finalized sometime between now and the end of the season.

Full article

And around and around we go!
 
And around and around we go!
And counterpoint...

In response to a claim from Craig Carton of WFAN that a league office said Thursday’s there’s “no doubt” the Tom Brady appeal will be resolved this season and that he’ll serve his suspension, the NFL has spoken.

“It is highly unlikely that the appeal will be decided before the end of the season,” the NFL said in a statement issued to PFT.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...olution-highly-unlikely-before-end-of-season/
 
I disagree. If this were a CRIMINAL case, I would agree. But it is not. It doesn't even make the standard of a CIVIL case. Something happened to those balls which benefited only one team in a game where integrity should matter. The evidence may not be clean in a court of law, but it does exist. Live with it. I personally think Brady has already gotten away with cheating and others now have further incentive to do the same.
 
I disagree. If this were a CRIMINAL case, I would agree. But it is not. It doesn't even make the standard of a CIVIL case. Something happened to those balls which benefited only one team in a game where integrity should matter. The evidence may not be clean in a court of law, but it does exist. Live with it. I personally think Brady has already gotten away with cheating and others now have further incentive to do the same.
You honestly believe that the Patriots purposefully deflated those footballs? Even after all of the evidence points against it? The evidence that the NFL produced has been utterly destroyed by science and experts in the field. That was an embarrassment of an investigation that completely ignored Ideal Gas Laws, used uncalibrated gauges that had % error ranges that are laughable and didn't test all of Indy's balls, which were allowed to warm up for however long. The scandal should be how Ted Wells completely screwed up on every single way that it could be screwed up.

Usually, you at least make sense. In this case, I think your general dislike for Brady and/or the Patriots is blinding you to the obvious.
 
Well they are paying the VICTIM CARD. Foolishness in my opinion, but what have they got to lose?

Did you even read Stephanie Stradley's (Texans Chick) article?

The Patriots are doing jack about his story right now. As far as they are concerned, it is in their rearview mirror and they are focused on the 2016 season.

She is presenting a solid perspective of big picture analysis of the NFL's policies. And regardless if you agree with her or not, there is no doubt it is one of the best thought out and intelligent articles about the aftermath of the NFL's bumbling punishment policies.
 
I saw this thread pop back up a few days ago & thought, "Figures...." didn't even care to read what they've done now. I finally got bored enough to take a look & it's old news.



Bill must be slipping.
 
You honestly believe that the Patriots purposefully deflated those footballs? Even after all of the evidence points against it? The evidence that the NFL produced has been utterly destroyed by science and experts in the field. That was an embarrassment of an investigation that completely ignored Ideal Gas Laws, used uncalibrated gauges that had % error ranges that are laughable and didn't test all of Indy's balls, which were allowed to warm up for however long. The scandal should be how Ted Wells completely screwed up on every single way that it could be screwed up.

Usually, you at least make sense. In this case, I think your general dislike for Brady and/or the Patriots is blinding you to the obvious.

The junk science was in the debunking of the case. Boyles Law does show how it could deflate footballs, but not by nearly the quantities observed. It's a matter of scale.

And you really believe Brady called him the deflater because he was losing weight? THAT strains credulity and YOUR credibility if you really believe THAT.
 
The junk science was in the debunking of the case. Boyles Law does show how it could deflate footballs, but not by nearly the quantities observed. It's a matter of scale.

And you really believe Brady called him the deflater because he was losing weight? THAT strains credulity and YOUR credibility if you really believe THAT.
It's been replicated time and again. You must not understand the science. Measure the PSI of a football at room temperature. Put it in the refrigerator for 90 minutes. Take it out and measure the PSI again. It will be at a lower PSI. Every single time you try it.
 
It's been replicated time and again. You must not understand the science. Measure the PSI of a football at room temperature. Put it in the refrigerator for 90 minutes. Take it out and measure the PSI again. It will be at a lower PSI. Every single time you try it.
Lower yes, but not to the degree observed. It's the SCALE! That is the junk Science. It's correlating Qualitative analysis with QUANTITATIVE analysis. You have to know the difference and obviously those in the NFL were scientific morons.
 
Lower yes, but not to the degree observed. It's the SCALE! That is the junk Science. It's correlating Qualitative analysis with QUANTITATIVE analysis. You have to know the difference and obviously those in the NFL were scientific morons.
You're wrong. 100%. Believe what you want, but it is what it is. If anything, the opposite is true. The Colt's balls seemed to be overly inflated. I'm an engineer by trade. This is kind of what I do.
 
You're wrong. 100%. Believe what you want, but it is what it is. If anything, the opposite is true. The Colt's balls seemed to be overly inflated. I'm an engineer by trade. This is kind of what I do.
Then you SHOULD know better.
 
From DeadSpin:

Huh, The NFL Might Actually Win Its Appeal On Tom Brady's Suspension
Barry Petchesky
Yesterday 3:55pm

Though neither Roger Goodell nor Tom Brady appeared in the courtroom, today might’ve been the single most important day in this whole Ballghazi mess: the NFL and NFLPA made their cases in front of a three-judge panel that will decide, once and for all (barring one more appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which will never happen), whether Brady will serve the four-game suspension initially imposed for his role in the Patriots’ ball-deflation scandal.

The quickest of recaps, because this feels like it’s been going on for years. The NFL handed Brady a four-game suspension, which he appealed to an arbitrator. That arbitrator was Roger Goodell, who upheld the suspension. The players’ union, on behalf of Brady, then sued the league in federal court, where a judge sided with Brady and threw out the four-game ban. The NFL appealed, and that’s where we are today.

Despite this appeals hearing feeling like an afterthought, it sounds like the judges were remarkably sympathetic to the NFL.

THE REST OF THE STORY INCLUDING SOME VERY INTERESTING TWEETS RE. APPEALS JUDGES' COMMENTS
 
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