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State of the O-line

leebigeztx said:
Those old zbs guys played better than these bigger, physical guys. Part of coaching is keeping what you have that works. Mike Tomlin gets hired and even though he's off Dungy tree, he didn't change the defense. The defensive personnel was set up 3-4 zone blitz not 4-3 cover 2. He kept what worked vs trying to change everything. Ben Jones, Brandon Brooks, and Duane Brown are better than anyone else they've brought in. Think about this, Cowboys offensive line struggles, they fire the coach midseason. The Texans ol have been bad the last 2 yrs, yet the ol coach still has a job.
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I totally agree with you. I have questioned the O-line coaching for the last 2 years under Devlin. Although, to be honest to Devlin, he hasn't had much to work with. I liked the Kubiak ZBS scheme that required quicker more agile linemen. The current power scheme certainly isn't working, or we wouldn't suck so bad in the red zone.

There is a coach on the New England Patriots not named Bill Belichick that has as much to do with their success as Tom Brady and Belichick. His name is Dante Scarnecchia and he has been their O-line coach since 2000 - sans a brief 2 year retirement in 2014 & 2015. He was the O-line coach in 8 of their 9 SB appearances in the Brady era. Since BOB likes to copy the Pats so much I wish he could find his Scarnecchia for the Texans.
 
steelbtexan said:
The Texans org made a decision not to pay those guys.

Agreed with the last sentence of this post.
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Let's see, they paid Myers, Brown, Winston, and Wade Smith under Kubes, who do you think didn't want to pay the o-line who didn't meet the bigger stronger traits of the coach?
 
leebigeztx said:
Let's see, they paid Myers, Brown, Winston, and Wade Smith under Kubes, who do you think didn't want to pay the o-line who didn't meet the bigger stronger traits of the coach?
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We've been thru this

Myers was one season away from retirement.

Wade Smith also was about done

Ricky didn't want to pay Winston, which I agreed with

DB- we know know what happened with DB.
 
steelbtexan said:
We've been thru this

Myers was one season away from retirement.

Wade Smith also was about done

Ricky didn't want to pay Winston, which I agreed with

DB- we know know what happened with DB.
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And thanks to the Texans renowned medical staff Brooks was mis-diagnosed and therefor thought lazy. Jones was easily replaceable and he was
 
Well on 97.5 today LZ said with certainty that the Texans would make a strong push for Trent Brown.... Pat Starr has said with certainty that the Texans wouldn't be moving on from Davenport at LT this next season.... and McClain has said that the Texans would be drafting 2 new tackles...

So if one thing is certain, no one knows wtf is going on as is par for the course at this point in the year
 
Shishkabob said:
Well on 97.5 today LZ said with certainty that the Texans would make a strong push for Trent Brown.... Pat Starr has said with certainty that the Texans wouldn't be moving on from Davenport at LT this next season.... and McClain has said that the Texans would be drafting 2 new tackles...

So if one thing is certain, no one knows wtf is going on as is par for the course at this point in the year
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I'm confidant that Gain will actively look for an OT in free agency and also that the Texans will draft multiple offensive linemen this year which might include two tackles.
Re Davenport I also think he will be on the Texans roster at the end of the 2019 season but more likely than not as a reserve.
 
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I hope that Zierlein is correct. I love the tools that Davenport has in terms of size and length but he needs time to put it all together that we do not have. This offense has the potential to dominate if we can just get the line right. I know that O'Brien's 1st down play calls were not popular, but what happens when Miller or Foreman or Blue pick up 5 or 6 yards rather than 1 or 0? How does Watson look when we are on schedule and can viably run or pass the ball and defenders are not able to pin their ears back and rush the QB or drop 7 guys in coverage? We need o revamp the oline not just to protect Watson, but also because O'Brien's offense requires us to be able to pound the rock and the current line is simply not talented enough to do it because the team has not invested enough resources into it. I do not think that we can turn the position group into the strength of the team over one offseason, but I expect that Gaine can add a few guys to what we have a produce a line capable of being average to slightly above.

The Texans need to focus on Trent Brown. I am a proponent of Donovan Smith but if the rumors out of Tampa Bay are true they are moving around salaries to try and retain him there. Were he to be an option, I would gladly pick him up in lieu of Brown given his experience with O'Brien at Penn State. That would make either Brown or Smith the starter at LT. Davenport would be kept around to back up LT. At LG, Kelemete would move to the bench for a, hopefully, improved Martinas Rankin to start at LG. Martin and Mancz make for solid depth at OC. RG would be Fulton again next season with Mancz being his primary backup. At right tackle, Henderson starts training camp as the starter but he is really just a place holder for our first round pick: David Edwards, Cody Ford, Jawaan Taylor or Greg Little (in that order).
 
Childress79 said:
I hope that Zierlein is correct. I love the tools that Davenport has in terms of size and length but he needs time to put it all together that we do not have. This offense has the potential to dominate if we can just get the line right. I know that O'Brien's 1st down play calls were not popular, but what happens when Miller or Foreman or Blue pick up 5 or 6 yards rather than 1 or 0? How does Watson look when we are on schedule and can viably run or pass the ball and defenders are not able to pin their ears back and rush the QB or drop 7 guys in coverage? We need o revamp the oline not just to protect Watson, but also because O'Brien's offense requires us to be able to pound the rock and the current line is simply not talented enough to do it because the team has not invested enough resources into it. I do not think that we can turn the position group into the strength of the team over one offseason, but I expect that Gaine can add a few guys to what we have a produce a line capable of being average to slightly above.

The Texans need to focus on Trent Brown. I am a proponent of Donovan Smith but if the rumors out of Tampa Bay are true they are moving around salaries to try and retain him there. Were he to be an option, I would gladly pick him up in lieu of Brown given his experience with O'Brien at Penn State. That would make either Brown or Smith the starter at LT. Davenport would be kept around to back up LT. At LG, Kelemete would move to the bench for a, hopefully, improved Martinas Rankin to start at LG. Martin and Mancz make for solid depth at OC. RG would be Fulton again next season with Mancz being his primary backup. At right tackle, Henderson starts training camp as the starter but he is really just a place holder for our first round pick: David Edwards, Cody Ford, Jawaan Taylor or Greg Little (in that order).
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Good post.
It will only take an upgrade at a few positions to make this line substantially better.
And if DW4 learns to get rid of the ball faster more often, instead of hanging out back there waiting for the big play all the time the line won't have to be a whole bunch better - except for the ground game of course.
I would add two more names to your list of draftees - Kaleb McGary OT, and Dalton Risner OC/G.
 
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Texansphan said:
Good post.
It will only take an upgrade at a few positions to make this line substantially better.
And if DW4 learns to get rid of the ball faster more often, instead of hanging out back there waiting for the big play all the time the line won't have to be a whole bunch better - except for the ground game of course.
I would add two more names to your list of draftees - Kaleb McGary OT, and Dalton Risner OG.
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The worry I have is that linemen are not going to come in and be plug and play.

A lot has been made of a shift in the college game to where these draftees are coming in and needing to be taught the technique of how to huddle up, how to break the huddle, how to play OL from a 3 point stance etc.

You add on to this OBs love of making everything he does with the offense as complicated as can be and difficult to learn scheme-wise and you can't necessarily expect to get better by churning the roster year after year.

I like the idea of letting Henderson compete to improve RT having had a second off season in the system. Bring in say Trent Brown in the hope he can oust Davenport, Ranking takes the place of Kelemete and spend some later picks on players who you can develop over a few years.

Under OB and Devlin that development has been stunted which is where I lose confidence in the plan, doesn't make it the wrong plan though, just the wrong coaches. Maybe Gaine is more aligned to getting them players they are able to improve.
 
welsh texan said:
The worry I have is that linemen are not going to come in and be plug and play.

A lot has been made of a shift in the college game to where these draftees are coming in and needing to be taught the technique of how to huddle up, how to break the huddle, how to play OL from a 3 point stance etc.

You add on to this OBs love of making everything he does with the offense as complicated as can be and difficult to learn scheme-wise and you can't necessarily expect to get better by churning the roster year after year.

I like the idea of letting Henderson compete to improve RT having had a second off season in the system. Bring in say Trent Brown in the hope he can oust Davenport, Ranking takes the place of Kelemete and spend some later picks on players who you can develop over a few years.

Under OB and Devlin that development has been stunted which is where I lose confidence in the plan, doesn't make it the wrong plan though, just the wrong coaches. Maybe Gaine is more aligned to getting them players they are able to improve.
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Colts line went from zeroes to heroes in about two months. But, having said that, Luck has great smarts behind it and gets rid of the ball quicker than DW4.
Quenton Nelson is a beast in the run game as was shown in the WC game and once you have a ground game as well as a passing game, then you have a potent offense.
Iow, it may only take one good piece along the line to make a huge difference.
OB also needs to ensure that Watson has the pieces in place for a short passing game to have the opportunity to speed up his delivery. A healthy Coutee and a decent possession TE will help.
 
Childress79 said:
I hope that Zierlein is correct. I love the tools that Davenport has in terms of size and length but he needs time to put it all together that we do not have. This offense has the potential to dominate if we can just get the line right. I know that O'Brien's 1st down play calls were not popular, but what happens when Miller or Foreman or Blue pick up 5 or 6 yards rather than 1 or 0? How does Watson look when we are on schedule and can viably run or pass the ball and defenders are not able to pin their ears back and rush the QB or drop 7 guys in coverage? We need o revamp the oline not just to protect Watson, but also because O'Brien's offense requires us to be able to pound the rock and the current line is simply not talented enough to do it because the team has not invested enough resources into it. I do not think that we can turn the position group into the strength of the team over one offseason, but I expect that Gaine can add a few guys to what we have a produce a line capable of being average to slightly above.

The Texans need to focus on Trent Brown. I am a proponent of Donovan Smith but if the rumors out of Tampa Bay are true they are moving around salaries to try and retain him there. Were he to be an option, I would gladly pick him up in lieu of Brown given his experience with O'Brien at Penn State. That would make either Brown or Smith the starter at LT. Davenport would be kept around to back up LT. At LG, Kelemete would move to the bench for a, hopefully, improved Martinas Rankin to start at LG. Martin and Mancz make for solid depth at OC. RG would be Fulton again next season with Mancz being his primary backup. At right tackle, Henderson starts training camp as the starter but he is really just a place holder for our first round pick: David Edwards, Cody Ford, Jawaan Taylor or Greg Little (in that order).
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If I were Gaine and OB.....Davenport would've spent the off-season in ballet and dancing school to learn how to move his damn feet.
 
You can have a good to great oline without having all 1st or 2nd rd picks. It's really more about developing the talent that ties to your scheme. The Patriots lost Solder, the LT most people on this board drooled over. They also lost the draft pick who was going to replace him. They traded for brown and was 5th in the league in rushing. The Seahawks protected Wilson by having 6 ol on the field 60% of the time. They led the league in rushing and Wilson threw 34 TDs without a pro bowl wr or rb. How many 1st rders do the chiefs have on the line? What about the Rams? Coaching has alot to do with it
 
leebigeztx said:
You can have a good to great oline without having all 1st or 2nd rd picks. It's really more about developing the talent that ties to your scheme. The Patriots lost Solder, the LT most people on this board drooled over. They also lost the draft pick who was going to replace him. They traded for brown and was 5th in the league in rushing. The Seahawks protected Wilson by having 6 ol on the field 60% of the time. They led the league in rushing and Wilson threw 34 TDs without a pro bowl wr or rb. How many 1st rders do the chiefs have on the line? What about the Rams? Coaching has alot to do with it
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You're correct about the Pats, they have Scarnechccia

The Seahawks have two 1st rounders on their OL, DB/Iyfafedi

Rams have 1st Whitworth 2nd Saffold/ I beilieve 2nd Sullivan 2 Havenstein on their OL.
 
I don't see PATs allowing Brown to leave. $21m cap gives them plenty to work a deal with at about $8 m first season cap hit. If and it might be a big one, Rankin has the usual jump 2nd season guys have next to D that side should improve greatly. I'm still seeing OTs coming day two or later.
 
McClain: Texans need to follow Patriots, Rams examples on offensive line

John McClain , Houston Chronicle Jan. 28, 2019 Updated: Jan. 28, 2019 7:45 p.m.

Patriots assistant Dante Scarnecchia, who has 33 years with the team, has put together an outstanding offensive line.


ATLANTA — When the Texans are working to improve their offensive line in the offseason, they can look at New England and the Los Angeles Rams as examples of how it can be done.

The Patriots and Rams play in Super Bowl LIII on Sunday without a starting offensive lineman who was drafted in the first round. They have used free agency and trades to build two of the NFL’s best offensive lines.

It’s no secret what the Texans’ first priority is. They’ll target the line, specifically both tackle positions.


General manager Brian Gaine has a first-round pick, two in the second and one in the third as well as plenty of cap room to address the team’s most pressing need.


There are different ways to build a line, of course.

The Indianapolis Colts, who eliminated the Texans from the playoffs in the wild-card round, went from worst to first in sacks allowed this season. The Colts devoted three first-round draft choices and one-second round pick to their offensive line.

The Patriots and Rams have taken different routes to strengthen lines that have excelled in run blocking as well as pass protection. Both are coached by longtime NFL position coaches who are among the best in the league.


The Patriots’ Dante Scarnecchia is one of the premier offensive line coaches in history. This is his 33rd season with the Patriots. He came out of a two-year retirement in 2016 to coach a line that was undergoing a rebuild. His coaching has helped the Patriots reach a third consecutive Super Bowl.

Scarnechia has done an amazing job. Tom Brady wasn’t sacked in two playoff games. He was knocked down three times. He was sacked 21 times in the regular season.

When coach Bill Belichick allowed left tackle Nate Solder, a former first-round pick, to leave in free agency after the 2017 season, the Patriots traded for San Francisco left tackle Trent Brown. They shipped a third-round selection to the 49ers for Brown and a fifth-round pick.

Belichick also used a first-round pick on offensive tackle Isaiah Wynn, who suffered a season-ending injury in training camp. That put a lot of pressure on Brown, who was the 49ers’ seventh-round pick in 2015. He’s done a terrific of replacing Solder, who signed with the New York Giants.


Playing next to Brown is left guard Joe Thuney, drafted in the third round in 2016. The Patriots signed center David Andrews as an undrafted free agent in 2015. Right guard Shaq Mason was a fourth-round pick in 2015. They got right tackle Marcus Cannon in the fifth round in 2011.

THE REST OF THE STORY
 
badboy said:
I don't see PATs allowing Brown to leave. $21m cap gives them plenty to work a deal with at about $8 m first season cap hit. If and it might be a big one, Rankin has the usual jump 2nd season guys have next to D that side should improve greatly. I'm still seeing OTs coming day two or later.
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This is why I see Donovan Smith as a FA signing and the drafting of another OT high, so that we never have to see the crap OT play that we saw last yr.
 
does his PFF grade of 66.4 concern you?
The franchise hoped they found it when they selected left tackle Donovan Smith back in 2015, but Smith hasn’t developed into the player many thought he could be. Inconsistent play and his knack for allowing easy pressures has made him an easy target for the Buccaneers fan base.
They already have a substantial chunk of their cap invested in Ali Marpet and Ryan Jensen, so paying another flawed player elite money may not be in the cards.

Even with Smith’s flaws, other free agent options don’t look much more appealing. The fact that there is only one top-tier left tackle prospect in the Draft, Tampa could bite the bullet and give Smith another shot.
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https://thepewterplank.com/2018/12/13/5-looming-contract-decisions-tampa-bay-buccaneers/3/
 
Texansphan said:
OB also needs to ensure that Watson has the pieces in place for a short passing game to have the opportunity to speed up his delivery. A healthy Coutee and a decent possession TE will help.
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We already have all of that. Either the playcalling fails to incorporate them properly or DW fails to use them properly. I think it's little of both. DW seems to want to go for the big play every time, and doesn't seem to want to throw short until he has to.
 
badboy said:
does his PFF grade of 66.4 concern you? https://thepewterplank.com/2018/12/13/5-looming-contract-decisions-tampa-bay-buccaneers/3/
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No, ineffectiveness could be the system and/or who's playing next to him. I like him b/c he should be a plug-n-play LT that has some familiarity with OB's system. I hope the Texans plug Rankin in at LG right out of the gate. I also hope the Texans draft McCoy out of A&M in the event any of the inside starters falter....he's a plug-n-play Day1 OL as well, and he plays nasty.
 
HOF offensive lineman John Hannah on 610

"Offensive line isn’t a talent position, it’s a learned position." He also believes to be a really good line coach you need to have played the position in the pros before. Says there is just little nuances like body positioning, and weight shifting you don’t really understand unless you have played. Forgive me because I don’t remember the coaches he said, but he said he had a really good OL coach that didn’t play the position, but what took his game to the next level was when he got a coach who has played it before.

I’ve heard his first opinion from someone else before, I think it was an older coach who was highly thought of but I honestly can’t remember. Essentially their opinion was if you have a good line coach you should never have to draft an Olineman earlier than like the 3rd or 4th round because they are all big and strong guys, you just have to teach them how to use it properly. I really wish I could remember who I heard that from.
 
Shishkabob said:
HOF offensive lineman John Hannah on 610

"Offensive line isn’t a talent position, it’s a learned position." He also believes to be a really good line coach you need to have played the position in the pros before. Says there is just little nuances like body positioning, and weight shifting you don’t really understand unless you have played. Forgive me because I don’t remember the coaches he said, but he said he had a really good OL coach that didn’t play the position, but what took his game to the next level was when he got a coach who has played it before.

I’ve heard his first opinion from someone else before, I think it was an older coach who was highly thought of but I honestly can’t remember. Essentially their opinion was if you have a good line coach you should never have to draft an Olineman earlier than like the 3rd or 4th round because they are all big and strong guys, you just have to teach them how to use it properly. I really wish I could remember who I heard that from.
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Coaching matters,

Talent does also. Look at the final 4 teams in the playoffs and where they were drafted. The Pats were the only team that didn't highly invest in their OL, and they've got Scarnecchia.

As Texans fans we were spoiled by the greatness of GOAT Alex Gibbs.
 
steelbtexan said:
Coaching matters,

Talent does also. Look at the final 4 teams in the playoffs and where they were drafted. The Pats were the only team that didn't highly invest in their OL, and they've got Scarnecchia.

As Texans fans we were spoiled by the greatness of GOAT Alex Gibbs.
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Yea I'm not saying I really agree with Hannah here. The game has changed pretty drastically since he played, both in rules and just the types of players in the league now. While there were certainly physical freaks on the d line back when he played, I don't think they were nearly as abundant in the league as they are now which leads you to needing not only a big, strong guy but a big, strong guy who has some natural talent as well.
 
vtech9 said:
We already have all of that. Either the playcalling fails to incorporate them properly or DW fails to use them properly. I think it's little of both. DW seems to want to go for the big play every time, and doesn't seem to want to throw short until he has to.
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I mentioned in another post somewhere Watson has to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. Need a bit of dink and dunk.
 
Texansphan said:
I mentioned in another post somewhere Watson has to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. Need a bit of dink and dunk.
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Rich Gannon says you’ll never broke taking a profit. Honestly, I think a lot of our issues stemmed from the need to max protect (fewer WRs in routes) and all the injuries to the WR crew. Hopefully with an improved OL and all our weapons healthy and just the maturation of our young guys, DW4 will look more like his first 6-7 games pre ACL injury.
 
OptimisticTexan said:
No, ineffectiveness could be the system and/or who's playing next to him. I like him b/c he should be a plug-n-play LT that has some familiarity with OB's system. I hope the Texans plug Rankin in at LG right out of the gate. I also hope the Texans draft McCoy out of A&M in the event any of the inside starters falter....he's a plug-n-play Day1 OL as well, and he plays nasty.
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With you on Rankin day 1 LG. He is not a Su'a Fila. If he doesn't progress, it's coaching. As is, this online if together should be much better and I think O'Brien knows that.
 
Texansphan said:
I mentioned in another post somewhere Watson has to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. Need a bit of dink and dunk.
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otisbean said:
Rich Gannon says you’ll never broke taking a profit. Honestly, I think a lot of our issues stemmed from the need to max protect (fewer WRs in routes) and all the injuries to the WR crew.
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I hope injury at the position was a huge problem. Part of holding the ball may stem from not trusting the new guy in the lineup & therefore not being able to play with anticipation.
 
vtech9 said:
We already have all of that. Either the playcalling fails to incorporate them properly or DW fails to use them properly. I think it's little of both. DW seems to want to go for the big play every time, and doesn't seem to want to throw short until he has to.
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I mentioned in another post somewhere Watson has to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. Need a bit of dink and dunk.
thunderkyss said:
I hope injury at the position was a huge problem. Part of holding the ball may stem from not trusting the new guy in the lineup & therefore not being able to play with anticipation.
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Possibly.
I remember one game later in the regular season where Watson was getting sacked ad nauseum and I was yelling at he TV "Get rid of the damn ball!"
And magically, shortly after on the next series I think, he made a concerted effort to do that to avoid getting hit.
He can do it - he just has that aggressive streak that wants that big play.
Now Schaub, he was a pocket passer and completely of the opposite bent - happy to (boringly) dink and dunk the whole game.
From memory, I don't think he got hit nearly as much as Watson.
Watson doesn't have to do it all the time, just often enough to keep the bastards honest and to move the sticks a little more often.
Watch Brady - he gets rid of the ball lightning quick - a good recipe to not get hit.
Watson will need some time to get used to that, but if he can, it will be another arrow in his quiver and help his oline out.
 
Texansphan said:
I mentioned in another post somewhere Watson has to learn to get rid of the ball sooner. Need a bit of dink and dunk.

Possibly.
I remember one game later in the regular season where Watson was getting sacked ad nauseum and I was yelling at he TV "Get rid of the damn ball!"
And magically, shortly after on the next series I think, he made a concerted effort to do that to avoid getting hit.
He can do it - he just has that aggressive streak that wants that big play.
Now Schaub, he was a pocket passer and completely of the opposite bent - happy to (boringly) dink and dunk the whole game.
From memory, I don't think he got hit nearly as much as Watson.
Watson doesn't have to do it all the time, just often enough to keep the bastards honest and to move the sticks a little more often.
Watch Brady - he gets rid of the ball lightning quick - a good recipe to not get hit.
Watson will need some time to get used to that, but if he can, it will be another arrow in his quiver and help his oline out.
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He was getting rid of it pretty quick during his rookie year. I think his time was right behind Brady's. So I wonder what happened? Oh yeah Obrien changed the playbook.
 
Texansballer74 said:
He was getting rid of it pretty quick during his rookie year. I think his time was right behind Brady's. So I wonder what happened? Oh yeah Obrien changed the playbook.
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Or the fact that he had to escape the rush.

The broken ribs/punctured lung had something to do with some of the changes in the offense. BOB's changes i the offense worked, Watson came out of the yr healthy which is all I was really hoping for considering the state of the OL and the injuries to the WR corps. Do you think throwing to 2 rookie UDFA WR's could've also contributed to Watson holding the ball longer?
 
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