infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Good route running can require safety help as well. Fitzgerald and Bolden have drawn plenty of safety help in their careers - Fitzgerald 4.63 Boldin 4.71 - when they were young.
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2016 Free agent targets
- Thread starter powda
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Good route running can require safety help as well. Fitzgerald and Bolden have drawn plenty of safety help in their careers - Fitzgerald 4.63 Boldin 4.71 - when they were young.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I've been looking at our OL depth this morning. Our current projected starters are all veterans; but, with the exception of Oday Aboushi, our depth are all UFA's with no more than 1 year of experience. We desperately need to upgrade our talent.
For now, I'm OK with Greg Mancz at OC. But he's had a history of problems staying healthy. I don't remember any discussion in depth on his issues. Perhaps CnD can clarify the risk going forward with Mancz.
This said, everyone pretty much agrees we need to draft an OT. But I'm now thinking we need to also draft an OG in the mid-rounds.
If we were to go with Coleman in the first, the OT I'm looking at, at 52, is Le'raven Clark, who can also move inside.
There are quite a few possibilities at OG, who will be available in the 3rd or 4th. I'm not quite certain what type of player we need to best fit our blocking scheme.
For now, I'm OK with Greg Mancz at OC. But he's had a history of problems staying healthy. I don't remember any discussion in depth on his issues. Perhaps CnD can clarify the risk going forward with Mancz.
This said, everyone pretty much agrees we need to draft an OT. But I'm now thinking we need to also draft an OG in the mid-rounds.
If we were to go with Coleman in the first, the OT I'm looking at, at 52, is Le'raven Clark, who can also move inside.
There are quite a few possibilities at OG, who will be available in the 3rd or 4th. I'm not quite certain what type of player we need to best fit our blocking scheme.
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The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I'm expecting us to take a G and a C in the middle rounds this year. But I don't think we're done in FA, either. I expect us to sign someone like Chris Chester, Louis Vasquez, or even Wizniewski.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Somewhere I addressed his injury history prior to us taking him. He suffered a shoulder injury in the East/West game in Jan 2015. With a torn labrum, surgery was the only option. He was slow to fully rehab and came back, I believe, to only take 1 offensive snap before he suffered a season-ending IR knee injury, which required surgery. The specific injury was never report. However, it should be noted that in his senior season, he missed several games due to a significant knee injury, which again was not characterized. Labrum injury/surgery can be a concerning injury for any lineman because ongoing problems are not unusual and the shoulder joint is continually stress..........and in Mancz's case, he had not even proven that he had come back from his shoulder surgery before he was knocked out with his knee injury.
Without a proven year of health and performance, I'd be guarded in relying on Mancz going into this season.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
People miss this too many times. If they draft a guy who is = to Nuk, I dont care if he's a 4.3. The shot plays are from your 45 yd line. Reggie Wayne was 4.55 guy, but he was sudden. Thats what you need is a sudden guy to make plays.
1. Kolby Listenbee, WR, TCU
Listenbee emerged as a solid target in the passing game (second on the team in receiving) last season for the Horned Frogs. He caught the attention of many by throwing a touchdown on the second play of TCU's route of Ole Miss in the Peach Bowl. He's more accomplished on the track side, though, posting the fastest time in the country among football players in the 100-meter dash (10.04 seconds wind-aided) and second-fastest time among football players in the 200-meter dash. You can't teach this kind of speed.
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000496478
***
There's your burner and he won't cost us a 1st round pick - get him the 3rd or maybe later round.
And the answer to your question is "yes". This guy can flat run a fly pattern that will take off the top of the D-backfields coverage. Has he got the best hands and best route-running skills in the Draft ? Of course no, that's why we can get him in the mid-rounds, but he can run like the wind.
If he can't consistently make the catch unless it's a perfect throw defenses will soon learn not to pay him much attention. I'd rather have a 4.5 guy that catches everything near him and gets open running good routes
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Darius Heyward-Bey can fly too. Too bad about that pesky catching the ball thing though.
Football isn't track. Its great to be fast but if you can't catch or run routes then you're useless.
And I'm not calling you out here. Just using this opportunity to point out that being fast doesn't mean anything if you don't have football specific skills to go along with it.
Everyone obsessed with speed at the WR position needs to go look up the top 10 forty yard dashes for WR's and tell me how many of those guys were worth a crap. At the end of the day the guy is still a WR not a track star.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
Brandon Marshall, Rice, Dez, Wayne, Carter, the list goes on for 4.5 wrs that get open and produce.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Darius Hayward Bey 4.30
Yamon Figurs 4.30
Jacoby Ford 4.28
Marquise Goodwin 4.27
Fastest combine 40s since 2000 (electronic timing).
Not exactly a blow the top off of NFL careers list.
Saw an article that said the avg NFL WR was 4.55.
Yamon Figurs 4.30
Jacoby Ford 4.28
Marquise Goodwin 4.27
Fastest combine 40s since 2000 (electronic timing).
Not exactly a blow the top off of NFL careers list.
Saw an article that said the avg NFL WR was 4.55.
Matavis Bryant/Jordy Nelson/Sammy Watkins/Julio Jones/Megatron etc... and almost every team has a John Brown/Ted Ginn/T.Y. Hilton on it. Good WR's with speed that may not be WR's 1 but their speed opens things up for the running game and other receivers.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
I think the hope here is that one of these days a wr with great speed might actually learn to run routes.
We dont need a rookie to be our primary wr - we've already got Dhop. I'm looking for an Alvin Harper. He doesn't have to have vacuum hands but he needs to capitalize on the deep ball enough to effect a step or two from safetys.
Ultimately, we need an honest threat outside of dhop in the passing game. I dont care if it's a burner opposite dhop, a super shifty slot, or a legit tight end. We have to secure one of those pieces this offseason and add to our offensive line.
Imo speed does more then stats will ever show.Speed isn't always about production. Sometimes it's most effective as a threat. People keep citing great wr's who were slow but they never mention the fast guys who lined up alongside them and helped to increase their production.
We dont need a rookie to be our primary wr - we've already got Dhop. I'm looking for an Alvin Harper. He doesn't have to have vacuum hands but he needs to capitalize on the deep ball enough to effect a step or two from safetys.
Ultimately, we need an honest threat outside of dhop in the passing game. I dont care if it's a burner opposite dhop, a super shifty slot, or a legit tight end. We have to secure one of those pieces this offseason and add to our offensive line.
Imo speed does more then stats will ever show.Speed isn't always about production. Sometimes it's most effective as a threat. People keep citing great wr's who were slow but they never mention the fast guys who lined up alongside them and helped to increase their production.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You need to define your terms - specifically what is a qualify 40 time for a speedy receiver. You have several 4.4s and a 4.5 in there.
You mean like Boldin's 4.71 running opposite of Fitzgerald's 4.63? Or Houshmandzadeh's 4.68 opposite Chad Johnson's 4.57?
But that's really what the "difference" is in the NFL..a person who is half step ahead is open and full step is wide open. Estimates are that 4.5 to 4.4 is a full step over forty yards...in reality even with with equal times, the speed does not translate well on the field depending on multiple factors, but in a vacuum (not counting football skill factors) a team normally wants the guy with better forty times.
Jordy Nelson is who I assume you're referring state champion Jordy Nelson who ran a 4.5.
I believe everybody else I listed ran in the 4.3's but I know you and I will always disagree on this subject.
Fitz/Boldin probably had a fast 3rd WR to open up the field. But I'm not going to spend time to look it up. Fitz/Boldin also were abberitions.
Yep
Did you notice how Arians/Kiem added JJ Nelson (Fastest guy in the draft) to John Brown last yr.
powda
The bridge between stupid and useless is short.
How bout a broader more realistic sample size over the course of Fitz's career? Below are a handful of guys he's played with and i didn't bother checking 40 times for guys with less then 40 catches.
Bryant Johnson 4.37
Steve Breaston 4.41
Andre Roberts 4.46
Michael Floyd 4.47
John Brown 4.34
I guess if forced to define it i'd say anything sub 4.5 is fast to me.
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infantrycak
Hall of Fame
But not really because they don't come off and run unhindered side by side. CBs either start 3 off and bump/redirect or start 7 yards off. Plus the number of 40+ yd passes is pitifully small.
Did you notice he caught just 40% of balls thrown to him?
Did you notice the Raiders, the team most obsessed with speed, has had a string of suck results?
Not to mention that not all players run the same in full pads as they do at the underwear olympics. I wish they would do official NFL times in full pads.
Playing speed and time trial speed are not equal.
There's a meaningful difference between 4.3 and 4.5 and it's not silly. But this guy is a 10 flat 100M guy, that's virtually world-class speed. The D-backfield would scatter like a flock of doves does when they see a Coopers hawk bearing down on them when somebody with this guys speed is bearing down on them on a fly of deep post pattern.
We already have our #1 receiver in Hopkins, this guy would be #3 or maybe just #4. Yes he drops balls and that's why the price tag is reasonable, a 3d round pick or less.
Just his presence on the field is a big assist for Hopkins because he would keep safeties honest.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Hard to know if we disagree if you won't provide a number for what is fast enough.
Nelson 4.51
Watkins 4.43
Jones 4.39
Jaelen Strong 4.44
So again, what is fast enough?
Yeah yeah and there's a reason they don't mention his 40 -> 4.39. He's a 2nd gear guy who has trouble at initial burst, stopping and change of direction.
OK you're right Strong is just as fast as those guys.
Just not when he plays football with pads on. Obviously I wasn't a fan of the Strong pick and time will tell if I am wrong. But Strong isn't a differencemaker. IMHO BTW, if Strong was that fast/good WR with speed wouldn't be a high priority. BOB wouldn't be personally working out Coleman. But care on.
I do believe that the 40 yd and cone drills should be run with pads on so scouts can get a better idea of their true football speed.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What's is take to get an answer out of you? - what is the cutoff 40 time for a fast WR as you use that term?
PS - Strong wasn't on the field enough to make any judgments last year.
PS - Strong wasn't on the field enough to make any judgments last year.
A guy that makes safeties have to roll ofver the top for fear of getting beat deep. Usually the faster guys do this, but not always, Nuk for instance.
I'm pretty sure scouts are getting what they need from these drills as is. These drills aren't meant to determine "football speed" they learn that watching the kids play football.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
He said the name probably meant he was a selfish football player.
Sorry Marshall, but that is not even close to what you are saying.
If it is, please just map out the logic that leads one to believe a name makes someone a selfish football player.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
So you're just wingin' it.
xtruroyaltyx
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure but I think you are meaning to say someone that forces the defense to extend itself more. Make safeties and corners play off a bit more out of respect for their long speed.
A lot of guys demand safety help, however not every guy demands a cushion in order to keep them in front of them.
But of course a guy has to be good as well.
If a guy is good and has top tier speed it opens up the coverage. Safeties not only have to help, but they also have to back off a bit more than normal.
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
Exactly. We need a guy with explosiveness. Someone that either has the deep speed to cause a safety to cheat to his side or a guy with quickness and ability after the catch that can play in the slot and forces extra attention from the safeties in intermediate routes. 40 yard dashes are not the best measurement to find that guy, other than to eliminate someone from the conversation because he runs a 4.6+.
Nope
Give me a Ted Ginn/John Brown/Torrey Smith type WR on theother side of Nuk and wtch how things open up for the TE's and run game. The Texans haven't done this in yrs but I have a feeling BOB is looking for the type of WR I'm talking about and I wouldn't be surprised if he drafted a guy like Coleman/Fuller in Rd.1.
Not that I would, I would take Doctson.
This is exactly what I'm saying. Cak just disagrees with me and has for yrs. Of course the Texans have been lacking a gamebreaker for awhile now and lack of speed has been a team shortcoming on both sides of the ball, but times appear to be changing under BOB.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You have made this prediction each of the last two years. This is your desire.
Maybe but I like the fact that BOB is working out guys that can run this yr. Miller/Coleman/ I expect them to workout Fuller. They are bringing Washington in at the local workout sessions. He's very fast. Miller is also a move in the direction of adding more speed to the offense, wouldn't you agree?
Also there have been reports that have said said finding a WR that can run is a high priority for BOB. But you're right the last couple of yrs they haven't brought in a dynamic WR and if you like this then I hope you enjoyed a playmakerless struggling to score 9-7 offense.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What I disagree with is putting speed at the top of the list for selection criteria. That comes after route running and suddenness (and depending on the WRs being compared size).
The same kind of thing applies at other positions. For instance at LB football instincts/smarts and explosion rank higher than speed imo. DeMeco ran a pedestrian 4.69 but his football instincts and explosion were fantastic and made him a top LB.
I think Hopkins and OB would disagree they have no playmakers.
Number19
Hall of Fame
Yes. This plus what Steeltexan and Dalemurphy wrote is what I mean and want. The question was asked what this translates into player wise and my answer is that the player I want will have 4.3 speed as well as explosiveness and quickness.
I've had my questions about Coleman, most about his hands and his defincency in the route tree. But I've read that most of his drops came on intermediate patterns with a defender bearing down on him and a loss of concentration. I've come back around to liking this pick at 22 and targeting an OT at 52.
There are only two premiere receivers with the speed I'd like for the Texans. Both will be gone in the first. Not likely, but possibly, we could get Spriggs in the second. But I'm also liking Le'raven Clark at 52.
Coleman not running the route tree is why I have Doctson rated over Coleman. However since BOB worked out Coleman having him run Texans specific routes if Coleman is the pick then he really liked what he saw from Coleman and that's good enough for me.
One thing is for sure with Coleman's quickness and vertical he will be a redzone threat.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Yards per Target
DeAndre Hopkins - 8.6
Torrey Smith - 8.6
John Brown - 8.4
Ted Ginn - 7.0
Yards per Game
Hopkins - 73.6
Brown - 54.8
Smith - 53.2
Ginn - 26.2
TD's per Season
Smith - 6.8
Hopkins - 6.3
Brown - 6.0
Ginn - 2.3
2015 Games with a 40+ Yard Reception
Brown - 5
Smith - 4
Ginn - 3
Hopkins - 3
2015 Games with 100+ Receiving Yards
Hopkins - 6
Brown - 2
Ginn - 1
Smith - 1
Explain how those guys are gamebreakers but Hopkins is not.
Another thing to remember is Ginn had only recently been a consistent producer. He was considered a bust three or four years ago.
& Torry Smith is a nice option to have when you have a true #1 opposite him. Bolden, Smith Sr.
Nate Washington was probably that guy for us, but with the motley bunch we had chucking the ball... if you weren't the first read or the check down, you were lucky to even see a target.
& Torry Smith is a nice option to have when you have a true #1 opposite him. Bolden, Smith Sr.
Nate Washington was probably that guy for us, but with the motley bunch we had chucking the ball... if you weren't the first read or the check down, you were lucky to even see a target.
leebigeztx
Keep it Movin!
I know what Steel is saying,but just like the Patterson argument a few yrs back. I think Strong could be a great opposite to Nuk,but he has maturity issues it seems. To me, I'm more about wrs who can break tackles and make plays. Dez Bryant does this and he's not a burner. Neither was TO or Rice. Roddy White was a very good wr, 4.5 guy. Reggie Wayne, same thing. So to me, give me a complete guy like that vs a 1 trick guy. I mean other than Lockett, who is a burner for Seattle? Tate wasn't either, but he led the league in yards after the catch because he breaks tackles.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
I was not going for a comment about selfish football players, but a more general statement about a name alone being a reason for suspicion and investigation, but not a preemptive conclusion. It is instead about reason over inclusion or exclusion without basis. I fully realize the latter is an over reaction to the former. But both are problematic.
Marshall
Not pretty, but ALIVE!
The number one BOX I check off is whether they can catch the ball consistently or not. A close second BOX is whether they can get open. Speed is the third BOX, but without the other two, is worth less, though something.
It has been a constant from the time I was excited about Bob Hayes that all three rarely come in the same package.
Number19
Hall of Fame
I, for one, am not saying Hopkins is not a game breaker. I want to improve our big play capability by adding a second elite receiver with a different skill set - 4.3 speed.
Number19
Hall of Fame
In college, I seem to recall that Strong was most productive working from the slot. I'm seeing the Texans fielding Hopkins and Collins outside and with Strong and Shorts working the slot. You then have the option of switching up by moving Collins inside and Strong outside.
Wallace is a perfect example of this. The dude can fly, but can't catch worth a damn.
PapaL
Loose Screw
Exactly! Ginn has terrible hands. This year, his 9th was his most productive season with 10 rec tds on 44 catches. KR/PR he's good but as Deion Sanders said "I wouldn't drop my baby out of a burning building to him..." His 10 drops this year confirm that.
http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?...ry=RECEIVING&team=0&opp=0&sort=11&qualified=0
PapaL
Loose Screw
Lol, I never heard that from Deion, hilarious.
I want to say it was during SB week.
*EDIT*
During the playoffs:
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-new...ted-ginn-video-panthers-baby-diss-nfl-network