Thorn
Dirty Old Man
You're hard headed.
It's all good. If any of us actually was that knowledgeable about football we probably wouldn't be posting here.
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Case Keenum grabs early edge in Texans backup QB (Yates named #2)
- Thread starter legacy_gt
- Start date
You're hard headed.
It's all good. If any of us actually was that knowledgeable about football we probably wouldn't be posting here.
Surely you've seen enough football to understand what I said. Think about Michael Vick, or Vince young. 1 read, then go. Sure you can be successful doing that for a little while... NFC Championship game successful. But surely not anything long term.
You've got to be able to read NFL defenses at NFL speeds & make NFL decisions.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
And until we see Keenum actually do that (or not do it) we are all pissing into the wind.
I get what your saying, but Luck took a crappy team to the playoffs as a rookie. He's got a few mechanical flaws, but Luck reminds me of a more athletic Peyton.
I'm afraid he's going to do to the Texans what Manning did for a decade.
Kaepernick is one of the most gifted athletes I've ever seen. Unlike Vick/VY he has height 6'5 and a 95 mph fastball to go with it. He appears to be a student of the game also. Kaepernick also has the best QB coach in the NFL. So he's got all of the tools he needs for success.
Sounds like you're talking about Tbow
If he played like RG3, or Russell Wilson I could understand it.... or even Kaepernick. But he didn't. Not even close. Had Blaine Gabbert thrown the ball as often as Luck his stats would have been similar.
What do you think of Blaine Gabbert as a QB? Does he strike fear into your heart? One man doesn't win 11 games, not even Luck. Just like the Titans kept games close for VY
I do not doubt any of this. All I said, was let's see him do it again, prove he's the real deal.
drs23
Veteran
OK, you're hard headed. (I say that in the kindest tone) They're both starters in the league, RIGHT NOW. And I don't profess to know much about spheroid ball but according to those who do, they're pretty damn good at it RIGHT NOW.
They're prolly one year wonders though and will consider themselves lucky and in high esteem to mentioned in the same breath along with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and all them kinda cats.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
No it doesn't
LOL, now you're comparing Luck to Elaine Gabbert? :kubepalm: Wow.
Also it's true that one man doesn't win 11 games, but a very good QB gives you the chance to win every week. A very good QB can step in and from day #1 and can turn the worst team in the entire league from a year before and take the team to the playoffs.... Luck did that. Elaine Gabbert will be released before he ever sniffs the playoffs as a starting QB.
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keenum has the best footwork, killer instinct, fastest release, and "it" factor among our amazing 3 qb's. he just needs the experience.
the idea of 4th and goal knowing that keenum can handoff to foster up the gut, play action, quick throw, or qb sneak makes this guy have the most weapons. future looks really bright.
there's a reason why keenum isn't going back to the practice squad. yates has more years experience plus a playoff win under his belt and keenum is making it hard to choose between the 2.
i'm good making case a 3rd stinger. he'll be that good next year because he'll be hungrier.
the idea of 4th and goal knowing that keenum can handoff to foster up the gut, play action, quick throw, or qb sneak makes this guy have the most weapons. future looks really bright.
there's a reason why keenum isn't going back to the practice squad. yates has more years experience plus a playoff win under his belt and keenum is making it hard to choose between the 2.
i'm good making case a 3rd stinger. he'll be that good next year because he'll be hungrier.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I really don't see how anyone could consider this guy knowledgable as far as football goes even a little when he says outlandish statements like this. Personally, I think it's for attention, because there is no way a guy could watch as much football as he claims and state that Kapernick and Luck haven't proven that they are starters in this league. He is just trolling to create conversation. If not, that would be even worse, but I can't believe that he honestly believes that in his mind.
There are two different things going on here.
Kaepernick is flash & glitz..... he's the shiny "new" thing that people are easily enamored with. He's Michael Vick in a receiver friendly league. Michael Vick worked out well for Atlanta at first, but when teams caught up to him, it was obvious that Vick did not improve as a QB as well as he should have. Kaepernick will face that same challenge.
Andy Luck.... do the math. Blaine Gabbart is a statistical twin. The plug would have been pulled on Luck way before he got close to 4000 yards on a team that didn't keep it close enough to win.
He averaged 1+ Int per game. Nobody brags about a 50% completion percentage or a 76 QBR... that doesn't scream real deal. Especially when you have two rookie QBs who performed much better in RG3 & Russell Wilson; two guys I don't clump together with Luck & Kaepernick. Two guys who have proven they are starting QBs imo.
They've got to do it again, same as CK, but I think odds are better that they will. Luck has yet to prove he's "special" much less a starting QB.
eriadoc
Texan-American
Red, I do believe you're talking out of your ass.
OK, so what if Luck had an improved completion percentage, just by a couple points, say 56-57%, threw for under 4000 hard, say maybe 3800, but threw for more INTs, say in the high 20s? About the same QB Rating. What's your prognosis then, Dr.?
If this was his 1st & only year as a starter I'd say the jury is still out & he still has to prove he is a starter. Same thing I'm saying now.
It's not an impressive year for the best QB prospect in a lifetime. It doesn't compare to Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, or RG3, not even close.
If you're scared of a guy that puts up Luck's numbers, watch out for Blain Gabbert.
Three years from now if Luck is putting up the same numbers, he won't be a starter.
Three years from now, if Russell Wilson is putting up the same numbers, he will be a starter. It's that simple. Luck is being given a pass.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
I'll tell you what THIS Dr.'s prognosis is. I had communications last year with Rey, where I pointed out that every game on virtually every pass Luck threw, he lifted his back foot high off the ground and usually swung it around.......just like a baseball pitcher. There is no way a QB can have any semblance of consistent accuracy with that unbalanced form as the ball is released..........Luck, with his poor completion rate and high INT rate was no exception to the rule last year. If someone has not coached this out of him by this year, expect to see much of the same.
You might want to watch him (and his back foot) in these 2012 highlights. Yes, he completed those passes, but there were as many that ran afoul......and too many into the wrong hands (they don't usually compile highlights on those, do they?).
eriadoc
Texan-American
Those were Payton Manning's numbers, btw. I was going to start down the Drew Brees road as well, but the whole conversation got tiresome. I don't think anyone is taking your views on QBs seriously at this point. If anyone is, speak up.
potisyourfriend
Rookie
I'd hate to go off topic here but when will we know who is the backup QB for the Texans?
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Kubiak told the AP that he will make that decision next Thursday (essentially that confirms he is keeping 3 QBs).
That's because many have a reading comprehension problem.
I don't care who those numbers belong to, they do not scream starting QB, much less future H.O.F. I can't remember back to 1998 to remember what people thought of Peyton's rookie season, but he got better his second & third season. If he didn't he wouldn't be a starting QB in the NFL, because those numbers are not good enough for a starting QB in the NFL.
Find me one starter that turned in those numbers year after year & kept his starting job. Other than Blaine Gabbert who most don't believe should be starting.
I can find you several who had numbers similar to Russel Wilson & RG3's rookie season & stayed in the league year after year after year. I can find you several starters who never had numbers as good as RG3 but kept their starting job.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
:kubepalm: Is this guy still trying to compare Luck to Elaine?
One guy rarely threw the ball past 10 yards down the field, feels phantom pressure, (Jag fans call him "chuck and duck"), and pees all over the field at the first hint of someone coming close to him. Elaine might be the worst NFL QB I've ever seen... yes even worse than David Carr. Elaine also has zero leadership and can't lead a team in the huddle or in any other faction. When he starts week 1 or 2 (whenever he recovers from injury, he will easily be the worst starting QB in the NFL. Hell I'd take the Bills' emergency UDFA rookie QB over him week 1. There's a reason why "Gabbert didn't have the same amount of pass attempts as Luck". The more he throws the ball, the less of a chance his team has at winning the ball game... it's why MJD has been driven into the ground under Elaine.
The other guy is complete opposite, he will stand tall in the pocket, will sacrifice his body in order to make a big play, whether running the ball or buying time for his receivers down field... and he'll actually look to strike down field. Luck also came in as a rookie and was accepted by veterans as a leader of men and he led them to a 11-5 record
I don't really give a flip what his completion % was as a ROOKIE and I don't care if (outside of passing yards.. NFL record) he didn't put up mind blowing #s (completion % and INTs) like the likes of Cam Newton and Robert Griffin.. I think people are ignoring the usual progression of what is a NFL rookie QB, they usually always struggle and face great adversity. What Griffin and Cam did is NOT NORMAL.. and to a certain extent neither was what Luck did.
Go on the Colts board and tell them Andrew Luck is like Elaine Gabbert, they will laugh at you.
Hell, go on the Jags board and tell them that, they will laugh at you too.
One guy rarely threw the ball past 10 yards down the field, feels phantom pressure, (Jag fans call him "chuck and duck"), and pees all over the field at the first hint of someone coming close to him. Elaine might be the worst NFL QB I've ever seen... yes even worse than David Carr. Elaine also has zero leadership and can't lead a team in the huddle or in any other faction. When he starts week 1 or 2 (whenever he recovers from injury, he will easily be the worst starting QB in the NFL. Hell I'd take the Bills' emergency UDFA rookie QB over him week 1. There's a reason why "Gabbert didn't have the same amount of pass attempts as Luck". The more he throws the ball, the less of a chance his team has at winning the ball game... it's why MJD has been driven into the ground under Elaine.
The other guy is complete opposite, he will stand tall in the pocket, will sacrifice his body in order to make a big play, whether running the ball or buying time for his receivers down field... and he'll actually look to strike down field. Luck also came in as a rookie and was accepted by veterans as a leader of men and he led them to a 11-5 record
I don't really give a flip what his completion % was as a ROOKIE and I don't care if (outside of passing yards.. NFL record) he didn't put up mind blowing #s (completion % and INTs) like the likes of Cam Newton and Robert Griffin.. I think people are ignoring the usual progression of what is a NFL rookie QB, they usually always struggle and face great adversity. What Griffin and Cam did is NOT NORMAL.. and to a certain extent neither was what Luck did.
Go on the Colts board and tell them Andrew Luck is like Elaine Gabbert, they will laugh at you.
Hell, go on the Jags board and tell them that, they will laugh at you too.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
One name... that's easy.
Troy Aikman. For grins I'll throw in another.. Eli Manning. Both of these guys represent 5 SB championships and multiple SB MVP trophies. When you throw in Terry Bradshaw, those numbers get even more rediculous. Go figure.
Your problem is your critique is WAY too stat driven. You don't judge a rookie QB by "stats". They usually always hit different hurdles that they have to face as they navigate their way through the learning process of the hardest position to learn in professional sports. You judge them by how they handle those hurdles and are able to overcome them. If you do that, Andrew Luck passed with flying colors and had a fantastic rookie season, but I thought that was obvious. I mean really, who actually believes the guy had a bad season?
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Showtime100
Got JJ?
I think that is what will happen. I guess that means we need to cut Joe Marciano to make room?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Yeah and Manning went on to dramatically up his game in his 2nd year. Manning proved himself in his 2nd year, not his 1st. I think that is all TK is saying. Luck's hasn't proven himself with that 1st year and a lot of QBs don't make the kind of 2nd year improvement Manning did.
TK - you are wrong to bring up Gabbert and the numbers would not be close because Gabbert's ypa is 1.6 ypa less so with the same number of attempts as Luck, Gabbert would have thrown for 1003 less yards with 5 less TDs and 1 less INT.
Are you using Gabbert's rookie numbers? I meant his 2012 numbers, his numbers as a starter which none of us believe are good enough to be a starter. By my calculations he'd have been 626 yards shy of Luck's numbers, 3 touchdowns short, & thrown 4 to 5 less INTs. Not exactly the same, but close enough to say it ain't good enough.
But, you're right about my point, even if Blaine is a poor example.
I see. Forgive me, I thought you knew WTF you were talking about. I was wrong, I won't bother you anymore on this.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Umm, I do know WTF I'm talking about and you know I do... Which is why all you could offer up was this lame ass response above with no actual rebuttal against anything I posted regarding this topic.
"Andrew Luck is comparable to Blaine Gabbert" =
(Just like there's no real competition to the #2 QB spot right?.. you still believe that?) Do me a favor, go post your opinion on the Jags official message board, you'll have homefield advantage there. I really want to see the comments posted. The fact that you admittedly took a rookie player who led a team that previously had the worst record in the league to a 11-5 record. A player who lost his HC and through his play got his offensive coordinator hired as a now HC in the NFL and then compared said player to a non rookie second year starter who through his play got his HC fired just after one single season, got his GM fired too, and who's team actually brought in Chad Henne to compete with him is a absolute stretch. But continue on with "stats", because they obviously paint the entire picture right
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Nah, you don't know what you're talking about. You even bolded the criteria in in my post. Neither Aikman or Eli turned in Luck type (Gabbert like) numbers year after year & kept their job.
& it's not like you didn't know what numbers I was talking about. eriadoc knew...
I was pretty specific
'cak knew what I was talking about
But you're going to tell me that Andrew Luck is a bonafide HoFamer & multi-Super Bowl winning QB averaging 1+ INT per game..... nah, I don't think so. 76 QBR... no way. 54% completion percentage?
If he does this again next year, he'll be out of a job because "real" starting QBs perform better than that. Doesn't matter how good they look throwing the ball to the other team... or how good they look throwing it in the dirt... it's generally considered unacceptable.
You can't pencil them in for the HOF or say theyll be THE elite QB's for the next 15 yeats and you can't definitively say they won't be either.
I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?
Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.
I don't understand this argument. If you're going to talk about projections would t it make sense to talk actual football stuff? Like the players abilities and their team outlooks moving forward?
Btw, this young qb's coming in and tearing up the league is kind of new. I don't think it's happened like this before where you have so many good young QB's immediately helping their team in such huge ways. I could be wrong.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Actually it wasn't, I didn't know the exact #'s, because most of what you've typed wasn't specific... I just simply winged the #s I chose off of QBs who posted "Gabbert like" stats, that is the criteria right? God knows I couldn't go off of the NFL record breaking passing yards Luck put up, his record breaking amount of 4th quarter comebacks, or his wins and loss record, because that would be stupid.. but since you posted some exact examples of this criteria below,
I'll go off of that.
Both Eli's and Troy's #s are lower.. granted Troy's completion % was 2.5% higher in his SECOND YEAR STARTING (and if we're going by how you compared Luck to Gabbert, I'm now comparing a rook to the statistical year of 2nd year players) both QBR ratings were lower and they both had a lower TD to INT ratio..
Please don't stick words in my mouth... post where I ever said Luck was a bonafide HOFer and multi super bowl winning QB?
No he didn't... The biggest hang up here is you comparing Luck to a bust, which 'Cak disagreed with... He knew so much of what you were talking about that he didn't even know which year of Elaine's two year career that you were trying to pin on Luck. There's a difference in a guy saying that he agrees that Luck needs to back up his performance (a performance which you completely wrote off as nothing) and comparing said player to a huge bust.
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Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
Exactly.. This is actually the point I'm trying to make. Nobody is saying Luck is a HOFer, but he isn't Elaine and actual football plays and ability don't show up in reading a stat line. Anybody who's actually watched both players play can easily tell the difference (and the word "easily" is a understatement). Gabbert sucks and is one good alternative option on the Jaguars' roster from being parked on the bench or completely out of the league.. while Luck has to wear shades because the future is so bright and it burns my ass he's in our division.
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yes it would be stupid to give the QB too much credit for team accomplishments; 4th qtr comebacks, or W-L record.
& he only broke the rookie passing record because the coach left him in the game. Any other QB, like Blaine Gabbert, putting up similar numbers wouldn't be allowed to throw the ball so much, & Blaine is a second year player. Had he not torn his shoulder & played the rest of the season the way he started the season, he'd have finished with 3700 yards, 20 TDs, & 13 INTs
Most people would say that wasn't good enough & I don't understand how another 600 yards, 3 TDs, & 5 INTs would be enough to look at a second QB & say, "Yup, he's the real deal." Or "I want that guy as my starter."
sigh... all that means is that Aikman sucked his second year.
But yeah, you're right about Eli. He sucked from 2004 through 2007 but managed to keep his job. I recall people questioning his ability, maybe not so much his status as a starter, but definitely as a leader & "elite"
Like Luck, he had a penchant for "come back wins" (which I think are team credits, but alas) & I did admire his toughness, Eli's not Luck's.
So yeah, you were right, I was wrong. You were able to find a QB that played as poorly as Luck & managed to keep his job for multiple years. Who knows, maybe Blane Gabbert will win multiple Super Bowls too.
Well, conversations do flow in weird directions naturally, but then again there are those poster who want to smarter than the rest of us.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
This guy above, this guy from day one has had a habitual problem with seeing the obvious (Like being able to sit back and witness a QB competition that was obvious to EVERYONE). Like Tex mentioned, He just might be a troll. I'm a Texans fan through and through, but also pay attention to our divisional rivals. How anybody can actually compare Luck to Elaine is beyond me.
escrimador
Practice Squad
You'll never see me calling another poster names, or insulting their good reputations.
Case will be #3, won't be active on game day. Kubiak put on a good show, fooled some of us. But Case was never going to be more than #3.
Case will be #3, won't be active on game day. Kubiak put on a good show, fooled some of us. But Case was never going to be more than #3.
Keenum will be #3 this year but to say he never had a chance is to seem like you just don't like him. Yates actually stepped up his game this preseason. IF he hadn't, Keenum would have done enough to be #2.
Well I'll go ahead and make a statement I have nothing to back it up with too - if Yates had played poorly, case would be the back up. But since it was about even experience and familiarity won out. Had Yates played poorly case would be the no brainier for back up.
drs23
Veteran
Yup. Very much this.^^^^ I can't recall a QB that gets the ol' "deer in the headlights" look quicker or more consistently than poor Elaine.
"Whoa M'FKR!" I loved that!
Comparing Luck to Gabbert = LOL
This argument is another version of Shaub's a winner vs Schaub stinks in big games argument.
Stats dont make QB's winners. I think TK is a stats guy who must not have watched Luck play last yr. Outside of Luck helping keep up the annual tradition of kicking the Texans butts in Indy.
This argument is another version of Shaub's a winner vs Schaub stinks in big games argument.
Stats dont make QB's winners. I think TK is a stats guy who must not have watched Luck play last yr. Outside of Luck helping keep up the annual tradition of kicking the Texans butts in Indy.
I don't like him. I don't hate him.
I think he has a good chance of being our QB of the future, more so than Tj. But we're thinking Super Bowl & there's no way Kubiak is going to go into his 3rd play-off game three years in a row with a QB who's never played in a play-off game if he can help it.
Regardless how poorly/great they played in the preseason.
I've watched Luck plenty, not impressed. I've seen many QBs come & go that played as well, or as poorly as Luck, you have too, in recent years there've been several rookies with better seasons. Maybe not W-L, but again, that's more about the team than the QB.
Mark Sanchez was guaranteed $12M in 2012 & is guaranteed $8M in 2013 because of his 2010 W-L record & we see how that's working out don't we?
If it makes you feel better to compare Luck with Sanchez... let's do that, because that's all he proved. That he can play as well as Sanchez or Blane. 6 in one hand, half a dozen in the other, so far, same guy.
Andrew Luck can separate himself from them this year, but what's in question now, is what he proved in 2012 & he hasn't proven to be much different than Mark Sanchez (Blane Gabbert if you will).
I can agree with this post. However, at some point the Texans are going to cross that line. I still put Case in over TJ during playoffs if that happened. Case will shine if given the chance. He can throw the long ball, fast release short ball, knows the playbook, plus he can run better than the other 2.
He'll get his opportunity soon enough.
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
:kubepalm: now his saving grace is Luck = the butt fumble king. :kubepalm:
The butt fumbler took a 9-7 team to the play-offs when HoF Bret Favre couldn't. He took that 9-7 team to the AFC Championship game as a rookie. He followed it up his sophomore season by taking that 9-7 team to 11-5 & another AFC Championship game.
We've seen nothing that should lead anyone to believe Andrew Luck won't be a butt fumbler himself 4 years from now. Same as if we were looking at Sanchez at the end of 2009.....
& yes, it's silly to say Sanchez took the Jets to the AFC Championship game, just like it's silly to say Luck took the Colts to 11-5 (that's my point, before you ask).
GuerillaBlack
Hall of Fame
Well the obvious big differences being Sanchez had one of the league's best defenses and running games to help him out. Luck had Luck. He put the Indy team on his back. We have seen what Sanchez does when he has to put the team on his back (the butt fumble).
Carr Bombed
Hall of Fame
More evidence of you simply hating especially when you compare Sanchez getting a ride to the AFC championship.
The team that couldn't carry Bret Favre to the play offs just happen to be handing out free rides to the AFC Championship game?
