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Life Without Schaub: What if?
- Thread starter CloakNNNdagger
- Start date
kingtexan
All Pro
Many have said Chris Palmer killed Carr's career.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
Many have also said Carr killed Carr's career
kingtexan
All Pro
He had the athletic ability, and skill-set. Guess the question is did he start making the poor decisions because of the pounding he took based on the horrible line and possible poor advice from his OC, or did his poor decisions cause the sacks and mistakes? From what I saw, I think the later was true for most of his career here, and by the time Kubiak took over he was just damaged goods and had no chance. Given a different OC, chance to learn for a year or so on the bench, and better line, I feel he could have had a bright future.
Must not be so terribly horrible now, since he keeps getting the back-up gig to Eli, and this year many could argue there was better potential options for the Giants but they still choose to re-sign Carr.
You forgot two things...
His desire and work ethic...
It's pretty well documented at this point that DC wasn't a kick me out the gym kind of guy.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
As with all things, the truth is somewhere in between...I have 0 doubt that the pounding Carr took had some kind of impact on his development as an NFL qb. He had alot on his plate.
-A rookie learning how to play in the NFL at the most important position.
-The face of an expansion franchise and city that was football starved for 10 years
-The annointed leader of a team full of practice squad quality players on offense... many of which didn't even deserve to be in the NFL.
Then there were the expectations as the #1 overall pick...
I could definitely see how all of that could break a guy down to where you just don't enjoy playing the game anymore........................especially after getting lit up for a good 2 seasons.
but i also think that he was mentally weak too though...moreso than normal to where he likely couldn't handle being under the microscope he was put under. In the end, I don't think it wouldv'e taken much for him to wilt.
-A rookie learning how to play in the NFL at the most important position.
-The face of an expansion franchise and city that was football starved for 10 years
-The annointed leader of a team full of practice squad quality players on offense... many of which didn't even deserve to be in the NFL.
Then there were the expectations as the #1 overall pick...
I could definitely see how all of that could break a guy down to where you just don't enjoy playing the game anymore........................especially after getting lit up for a good 2 seasons.
but i also think that he was mentally weak too though...moreso than normal to where he likely couldn't handle being under the microscope he was put under. In the end, I don't think it wouldv'e taken much for him to wilt.
Read this and tell me what you think about his mental make-up.
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Carr/Carr_bio.html
The distance between Bakersfield and Fresno is 103 miles - for reference.
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Carr/Carr_bio.html
The distance between Bakersfield and Fresno is 103 miles - for reference.
kingtexan
All Pro
Interesting read. When a guy like Shanahan says that you listen ... just didn't turn out that way.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Carr was a career killer if you played OL or coached him (HC, OC). He was an automatic payday if you were a competent RB because you would get a mountain of dump-off yards and all the touches he could manage to audible into.
The smart thing to do was to avoid rolling the dice on a rookie QB until the teams foundation was built and the Texans said that they were going to build that way even as they picked the rookie QB first overall. A lot of people were glad to get Carr (myself among them) but a lot of us also pointed out that it flew in the face of everything that McNair, Casserly, and Capers said they were going to do. I couldn't believe they took Carr over Peppers at the time. Right up until the opener against Dallas I was worried that we'd just made the 1999 Browns mistake all over again. then we won that game and the Kool Aid was awesome. A week later they must have mixed it wrong or something because San Diego drove home the point that yes, we had just made the exact same stupid mistake that Cleveland had.
It makes absolutely no difference what Carr would have been or how bad he really was. It doesn't matter at all. He was never going to be anything here. Success was never an option because even if he'd been John Elway and Troy Aikman combined in a cyborg body it's a team sport and the Texans were complete **** from day one until Kubiak got here and started making changes.
The smart thing to do was to avoid rolling the dice on a rookie QB until the teams foundation was built and the Texans said that they were going to build that way even as they picked the rookie QB first overall. A lot of people were glad to get Carr (myself among them) but a lot of us also pointed out that it flew in the face of everything that McNair, Casserly, and Capers said they were going to do. I couldn't believe they took Carr over Peppers at the time. Right up until the opener against Dallas I was worried that we'd just made the 1999 Browns mistake all over again. then we won that game and the Kool Aid was awesome. A week later they must have mixed it wrong or something because San Diego drove home the point that yes, we had just made the exact same stupid mistake that Cleveland had.
It makes absolutely no difference what Carr would have been or how bad he really was. It doesn't matter at all. He was never going to be anything here. Success was never an option because even if he'd been John Elway and Troy Aikman combined in a cyborg body it's a team sport and the Texans were complete **** from day one until Kubiak got here and started making changes.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Carr had it all backwards from the beginning
............Last one on the field.............First one off the field.
............Last one on the field.............First one off the field.
kingtexan
All Pro
Carr had it all backwards from the beginning
The article linked said he studied more than anyone else on the team.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
It's an anonymous blog. Carr himself has admitted that isn't close to true on top of numerous reports from other players.
Texan_Bill
Hall of Fame
I was one that wanted to give Carr the benefit of the doubt under first year head coach Gary Kubiak. It was pretty clear to me that Kubiak - after about 6 games or so, had no faith, none whatsoever in Carr.
At that point it was disgustingly apparent that Carr was all about his family (not there's anything wrong with that) but football was an afterthought to him.
Thus, HWSNBM, or various versions of such a scorned player around here should be named... Thanks for nothing!!!!
Whether a once Carr fan or not, how much does it piss you off that he has a Super Bowl ring???
Me?
Not so cool with it.......... Just sayin'!!
Hervoyel
BUENO!
I was one that wanted to give Carr the benefit of the doubt under first year head coach Gary Kubiak. It was pretty clear to me that Kubiak - after about 6 games or so, had no faith, none whatsoever in Carr.
At that point it was disgustingly apparent that Carr was all about his family (not there's anything wrong with that) but football was an afterthought to him.
Thus, HWSNBM, or various versions of such a scorned player around here should be named... Thanks for nothing!!!!
Whether a once Carr fan or not, how much does it piss you off that he has a Super Bowl ring???
Me?
Not so cool with it.......... Just sayin'!!
The one reason that doesn't bother me is that players who ride the pine and carry a clip board all year know the difference between earning a ring as a real contributor and getting one for "perfect attendance". Carr was taken first overall so I'm sure he enjoyed watching the season from the sidelines and it's a nice memento but he can't possibly believe that he's met any expectations just because of that.
I thought when he went to San Francisco and then didn't push Alex Smith even remotely that was when he'd permanently settled into backup mode. He's just a guy taking up a roster spot now.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Link
There is this thing out there called google. Try 2002 nfl free agent QB. As with your spelling - make an effort.
if this article is to be believed, Casserly should have followed is initial mindset...
yeah... if only Casserly had stuck to his guns. A dynamite pass rusher like Peppers coupled with a pretty solid defensive back end... sigh, the possibilities....
That also says something else. From the very beginning around here, the coaches have had a stronger say regarding draft picks than the GM.
In hindsight .... do you really believe they would have fared better with Peppers over Carr ?
To be quite honest , I beileve they would have been nobetter or worse .... Peppers is a great player but he wouldnt have won them games alone ... sure it may have changed draft plans past tense , but... I dont thin it would have made an expansion team any better during the life of their respective contracts.
They had to build talent and depth at other positions to be competetive.
I think it is reasonable to believe that we would have been better off selecting Peppers.
We spent the first four years trying to improve the offensive line. The whole offense had issues, the defense had issues, but for the most part, the OL got more attention than it should have because we never wanted to admit the problem, or at least a big part of the problem, was the guy behind the OL.
He made the OL look worse than they were. He made the receivers look worse than they were. He made the TEs, RBs look worse than they were. & the defense can only do so much when the offense doesn't do it's part.
Not blaming everything on Carr, moreso the people who made the decision to stick with him for so long. Carr had his bright spots. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him play the game the first two years. It was mid-way through year three that I started feeling like we were treading water & losing ground.
I do not have that feeling about Schaub. From my seat, high above Reliant, when Carr played I could see open receivers on every play even though he would check it down. I haven't seen it often with Schaub. & when I did see it, it was difficult to tell if the open receiver was open before Schaub decided to check it down, or chunk it.
Right now, my belief is that if Schaub checked it down, it was the best decision he could have made with the information he had at the time. In fact, Schuab's criticism as of late, was that he wasn't seeing the open guy underneath & taking chances on the deeper routes. Again, not something I've seen throughout his career, forcing the ball.
It leads me to believe the "pressure" to win was something he struggled with & I believe the experience of "being there, done that" is going to help him & our team in the future.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Peppers produced right out of the gate and here in Houston he would have been lining up in a genuinely good defense from day one. Gary Brown and Seth Payne were disruptive and our linebackers were more than capable. Glenn and Coleman could cover and did. The defense finished 16th I think and that was while the offense was hanging them out to dry constantly. Smarter play from Tony Banks who the offense always settled down and performed for (to the extent that they were capable of performing) I think would have made us more competitive and netted at least two more wins in year one. I'm not saying we come out and go 8-8 or anything. I'm just saying we win 6 games our first year instead of 4 and look better and more competitive while doing it.
But as I said, in the big picture is that worth not getting the best player we've ever had in Andre Johnson? Not really.
I guess Palmer's job is to go around the NFL killing QBs' career.
Except when he helped Eli get his first Super Bowl ring (and SB MVP!) as his QB coach.
yeah, real QB killer there, all that success is KILLER!!
TejasTom
All Pro
I've heard Kubiak stopped yelling at him in practice around then because it was a waste of breath.
Posted using Tapatalk from my phone. May contain errors.
I'm not sure when it was, but I remember a couple of times he was on the sideline chuckling a few times because he couldn't believe what David decided to do. After one of the games he admitted that he didn't understand "that throw"
kingtexan
All Pro
Wonder how different it is with Matt at times? Cant say he doesn't make some "what the heck was that?" type throws in many games. Or when he has two yards for a first and a clear field in front of him and throws it away.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
You hear Kubiak occasionally talking about yards they left on the field. And we know that Kubiak yells at his QBs (see Sage, Carr), so I doubt he doesn't let Matt know about each and every one of them.
But.
The difference between Schaub and HWWNBN is so amazingly vast that it's just insane to compare them. But. I will. Kinda. I remember when I was just hoping for a QB who could throw for over 3600 yards, 16+ TDs, and <13 INTs in a season. It wasn't good.
kingtexan
All Pro
If you want to compare stats then it paints one picture, but if you compare them individually it is interesting.
Carr had a better arm and better wheels and was more of a pure athlete. He was a young rookie thrown into the fire and crushed play after play. Many of his questionable decisions came from trying to extend the play or do too much and force things, while some would say being shell-shocked.
Schaub had been in the league as a back up and was supposed to be a plug and play superstar if you believed the hype surrounding all the teams trying to trade for him. He doesn't have a strong arm and has never been mobile so what you need is a pocket passer with superior accuracy and great football intellect who doesn't make mistakes with the ball. What you have is a guy who has piled up yards and stats from receivers YAC and quite often throws the ball off target only to have the intended receiver adjust and save his stats. Typically his glaring mental mistakes are just that, glaring mental mistakes, not generated by his competitiveness and overwhelming desire to make a play or give that extra effort.
I agree they are vastly different, but in the end believe the stat that matters most will elude them both in their careers. Super Bowl winning quarterback.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
It definitely has that feeling much of the time. You look for something that will make you believe that he's not just capable of doing it by some kind of abstract standard but that he will step up when he has to and make it happen but those moments just don't happen often enough or against those must-win-this-game quality opponents.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
This whole post applies to about 2/3rds of teams in the NFL though. Certified franchise/elite/great......whatever you want to call them qbs are the only guys who bring that to the table week in week out, year in year out.
Agree.
And even though I'm never high on Schaub, I still want to reiterate that this team is built (money-wise and therefore, talent-wise) to have both units contributing in big wins. It's not supposed to be on Schaub's shoulder.
In 09, Schaub played well down the stretch to get the Texans to 9-7.
In 2010, the Texans kept finding way to lose game.
The loss to the Ravens came on an INT by Schaub, sure.
But he played a heck of a game bringing the team back.
The whole season really rested on the ineptness of the D.
In 2011, Schaub certainly played well enough to post a 7-3 record before he got injured.
And it's hard to fault your QB in 2012 when he won 12 games.
This was a year where the previously 2nd rank Defense was supposed to help the Texans cause. It fell apart with Cushing's injury.
Let's not forget that we spent a lot of resources on the D in 2011; the draft picks we made on offense in 2012 didn't make enough of an impact - Jones, Brooks, Posey, and Martin. If we had spent the resources on offense in 2011 instead, the offense would have been better in 2012, when we lost Winston, Brisiel, Dreesen, Jacoby; not to mention Leach/Vickers.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Carr had the potential to be a better QB than Schaub. But he doesn't have the work ethic or the brains to do it.
About halfway through the 2004 season, Carr either shut down or coorrdinators figured him out. For the first half of that season, Carr was playing really, really good. IIRC, he was averaging 270 yards per game and not making a lot of mistakes. And then something happened and he was never the same. His average dropped (again, iirc), to 170 yards per game.
Schaub doesn't have the arm strength or the wheels that Carr had. And sometimes he gets saved when he has bad location on his throws by great catches... BUT... Schaub throws a catchable ball. This was the difference between him and Vick with the Falcons. Vick had the stronger arm but the receivers dropped his throws more often than Schaub's passes because of that. Schaub is an infinitely better QB than Carr.
With the right team around him, Schaub can win a Super Bowl. By the time Kubiak got here, Carr could NOT win a Super Bowl. There's no way he could perform at a high enough level that even a team like the Trent Dilfer Ravens could save him.
I was one that wanted to give Carr the benefit of the doubt under first year head coach Gary Kubiak. It was pretty clear to me that Kubiak - after about 6 games or so, had no faith, none whatsoever in Carr.
At that point it was disgustingly apparent that Carr was all about his family (not there's anything wrong with that) but football was an afterthought to him.
Thus, HWSNBM, or various versions of such a scorned player around here should be named... Thanks for nothing!!!!
Whether a once Carr fan or not, how much does it piss you off that he has a Super Bowl ring???
Me?
Not so cool with it.......... Just sayin'!!
Rookie QB, no veteran backup to mentor him, didn't have dedicated QB coach, and on an expansion franchise....tough hand for anyone. Glad he got a ring, even if a backup.
CretorFrigg
Fire Rick Smith
Glad he lived up to his #1 overall draft status.
BullBlitz
Section 331
Few of them do. None when the Texans draft them.
'eh, I heard a stat the other day that QB's are the position most in the hall of fame of any position in any round.
14 QBs in the HoF that have been drafted in the first round. No other position comes close according to NFLN.
David Carr should have been a third round pick - at best - and allowed to develop on the bench for 2-3 years before being thrown to the wolves. His work ethic and film study skills were lax according to his own words, and someone should have worked on him to develop those basic fundamental aspects of being an NFL QB.
I think the marketing department had too much influence on football operations back then. Marketing was in overdrive to make an impact with a new expansion team, and David Carr looked handsome in those spiffy new uniforms. They needed a poster boy and Carr fulfilled that position well. Unfortunately, it ultimately damaged his career as his apparent overwhelming and permanent shell shock (according to most everyone it seems) have left him unable to even compete for a starting job.
Doppelganger
None
Disagree.
I think Carr was pretty much as good as gone. Rather than Okoye, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn and the QB guru, Gary Kubiak, would have been in charge of molding him. I think he would have struggled and at the end of the 2009 season, Kubiak would have been fired. In 2010, they would have hired Bill Cowher and he would have gone defense with the first pick: Ndamukong Suh, Eric Berry, Jason Pierre Paul(depdning how poorly they did the year before).
They still would have been looking for a starting QB and likely would have signed a vet. In 2011 they would have drafted Andy Dalton...
Yes they would've been better
1. They would've had a chance to get a QB in the 20003-2004 draft that would've put his profession that paid him millions for 9 months worth of work 1st. Palmer/Eli Manning and Peppers, instead of Davey.
2. They wouldn't have been living the fantasy that Mario was what he was supposed to be.
It is what it is, but the decision to draft Davey set this org back 7-8 yrs. Hell, BoB was so in love with Davey, Gary had to lie to BoB to get his 1st HC job. I guess sometimes lying does pay. Not that I blame Gary, if I was in his shoes I would've told BoB what he wanted to hear.
GNTLEWOLF
Rookie
So....you are saying that because we got Carr, the Texans will not be able to go QB in the 20003 draft?...that is if the world and pro football are still around.......LOL...Just kiding..I had to say something though...LOL
MSR.....
I think there are several people here who are afraid of what this O would look like if Gary was to get his hands on just a little more bonafide talent, some 1st day pedigree.
I mean if Kubiak ain't going nowhere when we suck (13 wins & he division in 2012)... he'll be in for life if we were to win a conference championship game.
I don't even know if that was the case. I bet Carr would have been everything we wanted him to be if he had Kubiak from day 1. Someone who had a clue on how to protect him. Someone who could watch him & explain what the problem was & what can be done to help him out.
I'm probably way off, but I feel like David's coaches were telling him, "You're fine man.... we'll fix this." When they should have been saying, "Sure there were some mistakes up front, but you should.... blah, blah, blah."
I think Kubiak's frustration with David, was that he "acted" as if he never learned. During practice, in the film room, I'm sure David was smart enough to grasp the concepts & answer the questions. But on game day, when he was getting smaked around he turtled up.
Didn't read all of this, so it may be a repeat. This WAS us 2002-2006. The only difference being that Carr would never actually run into someone while attempting to assume the fetal position.So, this could be us?
HTown2ATX
TexansMetalhead
So, this could be us?
Correction...this WAS us....remember the Rosencopter anyone just to name one....
If I'm not mistaken.....weren't the Texans up a few TD's with only a few minutes to go when Rosencopter and other panty shlarting events occurred to cause the Texans to lose the game. Ah, the days when the Texans were a pure laughing stock....
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Correction...this WAS us....remember the Rosencopter anyone just to name one....
If I'm not mistaken.....weren't the Texans up a few TD's with only a few minutes to go when Rosencopter and other panty shlarting events occurred to cause the Texans to lose the game. Ah, the days when the Texans were a pure laughing stock....
Up 17 points with 5 minutes to go.
