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Texans and Refs

Vinny said:
oh come on people...the NFL doesn't hate us. Let's put on our big boy britches today!
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I just want the NFL to admit their mistake on AT LEAST the Flacco intentional grounding, and Jacoby's 2nd foot call. Not going to change the game but at least admit to your mistakes.
 
The missed grounding was a very bad call.

Still, I don't think the NFL is pro wrestling. Or boxing.
 
Jones had two feet down, but didn't advance the ball far enough to make the 1st. It's a moot point in terms of winning the game, but incredibly poor officiating by the guy with the 50" plasmas and HD TV feed. I really don't know how you reverse the call of that catch with 'indisputable evidence'.
 
Guys, seriously...

Until you've stood in the middle of the field...at full speed...and experienced what those guys experience...you have NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

They don't have 13 instant replays to look at in slo-mo. They get ONE SHOT (without a replay) at full speed. Don't criticize them after you've seen the play a dozen times or more and you're sitting at home watching it on DVR going back and forth...back and forth...screaming at your friends because it "so clear" that they "blew that one." Run it at full speed ONCE and then make your decision.

I've got the link to TASO (Texas Association of Sports Officials) and I'll gladly put you into contact with the Houston Chapter to get you registered for next season...THEN, and only then will you have some idea what you're complaining about.

I've been a ref since `04 and I've missed calls. I've had several times where coaches go nuts on the sidelines over calls made and come back a week later (or whenever the next time that they see me) with their hat in hand and apologize for acting like a turd because we got the call right.

I've called all the way up to and including semi-pro ball, and all I can tell you is--you have NO EARTHLY IDEA how fast things happen when you're standing in the middle (I'm an umpire) of 285-320 lb guys that are moving faster than you can imagine.

Oftentimes you see PART of a play. You see two guys take a tumble, but did you see the START of the play? If you didn't see the play you can't make the call. That = sometimes officials miss calls.

Conspiracy against the Texans???

Grow up...
 
Texanmike said:
Is it idiotic to suggest that we should just accept it? Yes.
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Short of building a time machine that enables us to go back and correct bad calls I'm not sure what else we can do but accept the fact that our team is going to get tough breaks now and then and thus they have to be good enough to overcome them.
 
TexansFanatic said:
Short of building a time machine that enables us to go back and correct bad calls I'm not sure what else we can do but accept the fact that our team is going to get tough breaks now and then and thus they have to be good enough to overcome them.
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There's nothing we can do about bad calls. There isn't anything Kubiak can do about bad calls.

What Kubiak & those 11 marshmallows on offense can do is score when the defense gives you the ball 19-14 against the Ravens on the road. Or even 25-14...

We had that opportunity, bad calls and all, we had an opportunity to control, possibly win the game. When we didn't, that says it all right there. Good calls, bad calls... we didn't have a chance of winning that game.
 
Luv_ya_blue said:
Guys, seriously...

Until you've stood in the middle of the field...at full speed...and experienced what those guys experience...you have NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

They don't have 13 instant replays to look at in slo-mo. They get ONE SHOT (without a replay) at full speed. Don't criticize them after you've seen the play a dozen times or more and you're sitting at home watching it on DVR going back and forth...back and forth...screaming at your friends because it "so clear" that they "blew that one." Run it at full speed ONCE and then make your decision.

I've got the link to TASO (Texas Association of Sports Officials) and I'll gladly put you into contact with the Houston Chapter to get you registered for next season...THEN, and only then will you have some idea what you're complaining about.

I've been a ref since `04 and I've missed calls. I've had several times where coaches go nuts on the sidelines over calls made and come back a week later (or whenever the next time that they see me) with their hat in hand and apologize for acting like a turd because we got the call right.

I've called all the way up to and including semi-pro ball, and all I can tell you is--you have NO EARTHLY IDEA how fast things happen when you're standing in the middle (I'm an umpire) of 285-320 lb guys that are moving faster than you can imagine.

Oftentimes you see PART of a play. You see two guys take a tumble, but did you see the START of the play? If you didn't see the play you can't make the call. That = sometimes officials miss calls.

Conspiracy against the Texans???

Grow up...
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The Texans lost this game on their own, we understand that, but this thread had transitioned from a conspiracy against the Texans to one that was pointing out poor officiating performances in the NFL in general. That's great and all that you have experience refereeing and you know how hard it is to do it, but those zebras that step out onto the field on Sunday, it is their JOB to get these calls right. This isn't jury duty where the refs are randomly selected and expected to perform a service on the fly. It's ridiculous that people use the excuse "eh, it happens" or "the game is so fast" and "there are so many things to look at" when they blow calls. This isn't little league, where the refs are volunteers and the excuse "it happens" is accepted. This is professional sports where they are getting PAID to not let that happen. If you and your crew can't handle dissecting plays that involve 22 guys at a fast speed, you shouldn't be out there and you shouldn't be collecting a paycheck. Games like yesterday, blatant missed calls everywhere on both sides, seems to be happening all the time in today's game which shows nothing but how these refs are mediocre at their jobs. If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre, where the standard is HOPEFULLY a 50% success rate of calls? I want to see more Ed Hochuli's and Jim Joyce's who man up and admit they did a horrible job, that way they are at least acknowledging their mistakes and their performances weren't up to par of where it should be

You bring up how coaches have apologized at a later time because they realized you got the call right, that's great because the bottom line was you got it RIGHT. I didn't need super slow motion to see Joe Flacco being tackled to the ground by 2 guys for a sack only to flick the ball forward a foot into the ground to nobody (that also didn't even make it back to the LOS while still in the tackle box) was intentional grounding. I could see it clear as day as it was happening, and it wasn't happening "away from the play". It WAS the play.

And yea sure, I'll sign up for refereeing. Hopefully work my way up to the NFL where on a Sunday I end up getting 30% of the calls correct, miss or just plain swallow my whistle on the remaining 70% of infractions and afterwards I'll just say "Eh, it happens", collect my pay check and be on my merry, incompetent way.
 
The Cush said:
If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre
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Really puzzling that this is the conclusion some are jumping to.

Nobody is OK with poor officiating.

Perhaps a good old-fashioned analogy will help make the point.

I'm not okay with crazy-assed terrorists killing innocent people, but I know they're going to continue to do so. You do everything you can to keep them from doing it, but the bottom line is that there's simply no way you can prevent every single terrorist attack. It's a sad reality. Period. Doesn't mean I'm okay with it. I'm just looking at the situation realistically.

Meanwhile, back on the football field, you have human beings (a creature by its very nature prone to making mistakes) making split second judgment calls. They are going to make mistakes. It's what human beings do.

To their credit, the NFL has tried to minimize the mistakes by implementing technology and allowing other humans off the field to review plays on instant replay monitors. But guess what? There is a human element involved in that, too. Consequently, there are STILL going to be mistakes made.

So, again, we do the best we can to avoid bad calls. But knowing there is simply no way to keep them from happening from time to time, you have to be good enough to overcome them. That's what the best teams in the league do.
 
Bad officiating and bad officiating that consistently goes against the Texans are two different things. The first one exists, and is probably a product of the increased speed and athleticism of NFL players, simple human error, and several other things I'm not smart enough to identify. The second one is a myth brought on by the existence of bad officiating, combined with a propensity to notice, get angry about and remember those calls going against your team, and the exact opposite propensity regarding calls going against your team's opponent.

I'm guessing most if not all NFL fan bases have sizable components who believe the refs/ the NFL are against them.
 
TexansFanatic said:
Really puzzling that this is the conclusion some are jumping to.

Nobody is OK with poor officiating.

Perhaps a good old-fashioned analogy will help make the point.

I'm not okay with crazy-assed terrorists killing innocent people, but I know they're going to continue to do so. You do everything you can to keep them from doing it, but the bottom line is that there's simply no way you can prevent every single terrorist attack. It's a sad reality. Period. Doesn't mean I'm okay with it. I'm just looking at the situation realistically.
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That analogy doesn't apply because you don't control or employ terrorists. The NFL decides who suits up as a referee and who steps out onto the field based on a criteria.

This is a better analogy. Steve Slaton used to be a Houston Texan. The fact that he constantly underperformed and produced zero positive results lead to his release and is no longer employed by the Texans.

The NFL has the same power, they control who the referees are. Yes they are bound to make mistakes but the mistakes should not outweigh or equal the right, that is mediocre officiating. I've seen greatly officiated games, and that should be the standard. Not these horrible performances we've seen the last couple of weeks.
 
The Cush said:
That analogy doesn't apply because you don't control or employ terrorists. The NFL decides who suits up as a referee and who steps out onto the field based on a criteria.

This is a better analogy. Steve Slaton used to be a Houston Texan. The fact that he constantly underperformed and produced zero positive results lead to his release and is no longer employed by the Texans.

The NFL has the same power, they control who the referees are. Yes they are bound to make mistakes but the mistakes should not outweigh or equal the right, that is mediocre officiating. I've seen greatly officiated games, and that should be the standard. Not these horrible performances we've seen the last couple of weeks.
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It's possible it could be better, there is always room for improvement when humans are involved. But it will never be flawless.

I'm not going to argue that the officiating is as good as it can be. But I will say I haven't seen a game this season that the Texans lost because of the officiating.
 
TexansFanatic said:
It's possible it could be better, there is always room for improvement when humans are involved. But it will never be flawless.

I'm not going to argue that the officiating is as good as it can be. But I will say I haven't seen a game this season that the Texans lost because of the officiating.
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All 3 losses are definitely on the Texans. It just makes watching the game a million times worse when it is combined with poor officiating. The number of incompetent people on the field at once is just too much at times
 
The Cush said:
The Texans lost this game on their own, we understand that, but this thread had transitioned from a conspiracy against the Texans to one that was pointing out poor officiating performances in the NFL in general. That's great and all that you have experience refereeing and you know how hard it is to do it, but those zebras that step out onto the field on Sunday, it is their JOB to get these calls right. This isn't jury duty where the refs are randomly selected and expected to perform a service on the fly. It's ridiculous that people use the excuse "eh, it happens" or "the game is so fast" and "there are so many things to look at" when they blow calls. This isn't little league, where the refs are volunteers and the excuse "it happens" is accepted. This is professional sports where they are getting PAID to not let that happen. If you and your crew can't handle dissecting plays that involve 22 guys at a fast speed, you shouldn't be out there and you shouldn't be collecting a paycheck. Games like yesterday, blatant missed calls everywhere on both sides, seems to be happening all the time in today's game which shows nothing but how these refs are mediocre at their jobs. If this city is so obsessed with not accepting the Texans being mediocre, why are some of you OK with the officiating being mediocre, where the standard is HOPEFULLY a 50% success rate of calls? I want to see more Ed Hochuli's and Jim Joyce's who man up and admit they did a horrible job, that way they are at least acknowledging their mistakes and their performances weren't up to par of where it should be

You bring up how coaches have apologized at a later time because they realized you got the call right, that's great because the bottom line was you got it RIGHT. I didn't need super slow motion to see Joe Flacco being tackled to the ground by 2 guys for a sack only to flick the ball forward a foot into the ground to nobody (that also didn't even make it back to the LOS while still in the tackle box) was intentional grounding. I could see it clear as day as it was happening, and it wasn't happening "away from the play". It WAS the play.

And yea sure, I'll sign up for refereeing. Hopefully work my way up to the NFL where on a Sunday I end up getting 30% of the calls correct, miss or just plain swallow my whistle on the remaining 70% of infractions and afterwards I'll just say "Eh, it happens", collect my pay check and be on my merry, incompetent way.
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I suppose that I'll just revert back to my initial statement...
You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Primarily because you've never done it for even one second. Coaches blow it with decisions...elite receivers run crappy routes...the greatest QBs in the league throw interceptions...the greatest running backs in the NFL fumble the ball. Heck Cush, let's just SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! Clearly, there is incompetence at every level and in every position. Your argument is straw man at best, and OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS at worst.

The best of the best screw up Bud...get over it. It's life.
 
Luv_ya_blue said:
I suppose that I'll just revert back to my initial statement...
You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Primarily because you've never done it for even one second. Coaches blow it with decisions...elite receivers run crappy routes...the greatest QBs in the league throw interceptions...the greatest running backs in the NFL fumble the ball. Heck Cush, let's just SHUT DOWN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! Clearly, there is incompetence at every level and in every position. Your argument is straw man at best, and OUTRIGHT RIDICULOUS at worst.

The best of the best screw up Bud...get over it. It's life.
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Lol at your bias towards the officiating. I love how I have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it but I go and see this lengthy post where you criticize Gary Kubiak when you never coached an NFL team, hell probably not even a high school team. Double standard? Or that's just totally different I guess otherwise it would be pretty hypocritical of you.

Coaches blow decisions, and they get replaced with better ones. The "greatest" QB's and running backs throw picks and fumble, but they are the greatest because they consistently perform at a high level. You are basically saying every referee in this league is elite at their job. I don't see that, other wise there wouldn't be such poor officiating performances. If you were to equate the talent of the refs to that of players, in your mind every guy in a given crew is an Andre Johnson and there are no Jacoby Jones's. But since I have never reffed a Pop Warner game in my life I have no room to lay criticism and should just sit back and accept the fact that the NFL employs refs who are potentially average at best at their job and that there is no one better out there to replace them. Sorry I questioned such a SACRED fraternity (where's that form I need to fill out to become one?)
 
I don't see any conspiracy against the Texans.

however I was pissed that the Flacco fumble/intentional grounding wasn't called. That was flat out B.S.
 
The Cush said:
Lol at your bias towards the officiating. I love how I have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it but I go and see this lengthy post where you criticize Gary Kubiak when you never coached an NFL team, hell probably not even a high school team. Double standard? Or that's just totally different I guess otherwise it would be pretty hypocritical of you.

Coaches blow decisions, and they get replaced with better ones. The "greatest" QB's and running backs throw picks and fumble, but they are the greatest because they consistently perform at a high level. You are basically saying every referee in this league is elite at their job. I don't see that, other wise there wouldn't be such poor officiating performances. If you were to equate the talent of the refs to that of players, in your mind every guy in a given crew is an Andre Johnson and there are no Jacoby Jones's. But since I have never reffed a Pop Warner game in my life I have no room to lay criticism and should just sit back and accept the fact that the NFL employs refs who are potentially average at best at their job and that there is no one better out there to replace them. Sorry I questioned such a SACRED fraternity (where's that form I need to fill out to become one?)
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Take it easy lil fella...there's really no reason to get so worked up.

Everyone is bias my friend--that's life. Some people are biased based purely as a result of emotion, and others are biased based in logic. I'll let you decide which one you think you are.

Take a moment and wipe off your spectacles and re-read what I said. Never said that you
The Cush said:
have no right to criticize officiating because I have never done it
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What I said is that you have zero frame of reference except as a spectator. Never said that there weren't crappy officials. Of course there are...just like there are crappy athletes, crappy VPs, crappy CEOs, crappy business owners, crappy french fry cooks...

Is it difficult to get into the NFL as an official? Not at all. There are several NFL officials that come out of the Houston Chapter of TASO. Even had one thta officiated in last years super bowl. The crews change each and every year. It's NOTHING like MLB and umpires that stay there forever. NFL crews change every single season. But do they fire an official after a terribly officiated game? No, of course not. Why? Because that'd be pretty stupid, wouldn't you say?

It's ok fella, I understand that you have an emotional attachment to your pov, and I don't fault you for that. I base my opinions of the game of football on the fact that I was a (1) player, (2) coach (oooh, strike 2 on that judicial estimation) and (3) an official. Now granted, I've never had the privilege of taking the pov from the popcorn vendor, so I really don't know exactly how you must feel...but it's gonna be alright Bubba. Take life easy.
 
Luv_ya_blue said:
Take it easy lil fella...there's really no reason to get so worked up.

It's ok fella, I understand that you have an emotional attachment to your pov, and I don't fault you for that. I base my opinions of the game of football on the fact that I was a (1) player, (2) coach (oooh, strike 2 on that judicial estimation) and (3) an official. Now granted, I've never had the privilege of taking the pov from the popcorn vendor, so I really don't know exactly how you must feel...but it's gonna be alright Bubba. Take life easy.
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LOL! Yea, I'm the one who came angrily to the defense of the art of officiating, throwing out "experiences" and "titles" at us "popcorn vendors" because we have "NO IDEA" what we're talking about. I'm glad you finally agreed to my point that there are crappy officials. You didn't have to go off on your whole "I'm a referee, let me give you all of my credentials and tell you about the time Jimmy's Dad called to apologize for throwing the team's supply of orange slices at me" tangent (Yes, I am the one who is emotionally invested on the subject LOL). As a former walk-on player myself I'm glad we have something in common. But now I must get back to being an internet nerd, I'm also late for my shift serving Dip N Dots. Don't worry though, I'll be breaking down film aka 0:30 second clips on YouTube during my lunch break to complete my cliche nerdiness.
 
The Cush said:
LOL! Yea, I'm the one who came angrily to the defense of the art of officiating, throwing out "experiences" and "titles" at us "popcorn vendors" because we have "NO IDEA" what we're talking about. I'm glad you finally agreed to my point that there are crappy officials. You didn't have to go off on your whole "I'm a referee, let me give you all of my credentials and tell you about the time Jimmy's Dad called to apologize for throwing the team's supply of orange slices at me" tangent (Yes, I am the one who is emotionally invested on the subject LOL). As a former walk-on player myself I'm glad we have something in common. But now I must get back to being an internet nerd, I'm also late for my shift serving Dip N Dots. Don't worry though, I'll be breaking down film aka 0:30 second clips on YouTube during my lunch break to complete my cliche nerdiness.
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LOL...u Dip N Dots guys are really a hoot! Thanks for the banter Cush. It's been good for a chuckle after a long day.

:popcorn:
 
Jackie Chiles said:
I don't want to contribute too much to what I view as a sour grapes thread (no offense) but can someone explain to me why Flacco was not flagged for intentional grounding on their first drive? He was dead to rights and threw the ball to no one in particular and there wasn't even a hint of a flag. He didn't even throw it like a normal pass, he just shoveled it out of his hands. Did they view it as some kind of tuck rule incident?

Having said that I doubt all the right calls in the worlds would have made that game much more pleasant from our standpoint.
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not only that he is a QB & his knee was down if anything it was a sack.
 
Luv_ya_blue said:
Is it difficult to get into the NFL as an official? Not at all.
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Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.
 
Speedy said:
Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.
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Perhaps I should've been a little more specific. Every Tom, Dick & Harry doesn't get to be an NFL ref. You've gotta work your way through the ranks and (as with everything else) you've gotta "know someone" to get in. Is it political? Sure it is. There are a lot of very good officials that I've had the pleasure of working with over the years, but I'd be completely disingenuous to not acknowledge that I've worked with FAR MORE terrible officials. It's just the way it is. And I can tell you that IT SUCKS to work with incompetent officials. I'm not as "biased" as Cush may think. I have a definite distaste for poor officiating. Because when you work with a crappy official, it makes the entire crew look bad!

I called a game the other day with a guy. Our entire crew had approx. 20 flags; 19 of those came from ONE GUY! There were at least 4-5 "sideline interference" calls that went against the home team...one of the flags, even went against the TRAINER (for Pete's sake!).

My point was much more that the "average fan" (not directed at Cush or anyone else) really don't realize how much your eyes mess with you. You see part of a play but not the whole thing. You've been watching these two guys "chicken fighting" for three plays, so you're focused on them and making sure that it's being kept in check...and then somebody takes a tumble out of the corner of your eye. The entire coaching staff and sideline are screaming, "BLOCK IN THE BACK!!! HE BLOCKED HIM IN THE BACK!!!! HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT?!?!?!?!" Was there a block in the back? Almost certainly! Did you miss it--yeah and it sucks to know that you can't possibly see everything all the time.

Yeah it bugs me when people don't put things into perspective...especially when they just don't have the experience...real practical experience. We miss calls...we all do, and YES it's just a part of the game. It's an unfortunate part of the game.

Another argument for another day, is just how much "rules interpretation" goes on. One official interprets a rule as one thing, and another interprets it differently. If you've never sat down with a rules book and thumbed through it, there is soooo much room for interpretation. It sounds very cliche to say that it's a game of inches and seconds...but it really is.

It's not a justification of poor officiating--cause I've sat through games and been critical myself of other officials (which is "frowned upon" btw) and gotten aggrevated at calls missed and calls poorly made. I have no blind allegiance to officials, cause like I've said--I've met a whole lot more SUCKY ONES than great ones.
 
Speedy said:
Maybe it needs to be more difficult. These guys are supposed to be the best there is. And I get that even the best make mistakes, but the blatant misses, 2, 3, or more times a game are just inexcusable. How do you miss that intentional grounding non-call? Officials huddle and talk on plays that aren't even close to intentional grounding all the time, but that wasn't even the case here. No flag, no conference, no nothing.

Was it Ray Rice that got the facemask non-face mask call? Then Arian Foster almost gets his head ripped off and nothing. I don't care how fast everything is, you don't miss something like that. A bang-bang play on the sideline, did he get his feet in, where's the ball at if he did, I get not getting those, but the other two mentioned, there's just no excuse for at this level. And if there is, then perhaps it needs to made a little more difficult to get to that level.
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Forgot to mention...
I didn't see the two plays that you guys are referring to--so I really can't comment on the call. If you've got a Youtube link or anything like that, I'd be more than happy to take a gander at it, so I could make a more educated statement about a specific play.
 
They didn't good calls in the Steelers game either but they won. I think that's what good teams do, just more regularly.

What does it matter now? I just want to watch them win a big game...or like, 5 big games in a row...something besides losing or doing just ok.
 
I don't get why the NFL doesn't develop a stable of young, athletic referees who are recruited the same way Air Force jet fighter pilots are recruited and are compensated extremely well for their services.

Only the best of the best with 20/20 vision, high IQ's, and impeccable credentials.

But that's just the opinion of a goofy message board guy.
 
Vinny said:
Officiating didn't lose the game....the 76 yards in the last five drives did.
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I'm not speaking about this game specifically, or about the Texans. I've already said that I feel dirty when the Texans get a BS call. I've reffed little league games before (U14) in basketball and soccer. I know it is difficult. I wasn't perfect. I wasn't being paid several thousand dollars/game either. The Texans lost this game, I've said that from the beginning. That isn't always the case. Anyone remember the NBA ref who described the situation in a Rockets game (the guy who got busted) and how it was fixed? I'm not saying NFL games are fixed either. I'm saying that they have a bunch of under qualified refs. If they determine that technology is the best way to get calls right then review entire plays (or at least the parts close to the ball) right after the play is over. Call penalties or reverse bad ones. Hell, can we hear about ONE time that an official is suspended for a BAD CALL? I see the officiating getting worse and worse every year and here is one thing I think that is the cause:

They have increased the number of fouls that are judgement calls. The defenseless receiver? Come on. That is a judgement. Spearing? Maybe they need to look at simplifying the rules a little bit? Remember the roughing the passer call in the Steelers game? Just say you can never, ever, ever hit a QB below the waist. That or move it back to what it was. The rules for the game are so complex and with people moving faster and more complicated rules maybe it is time to look at using reviews for penalties. It could be done just like a booth review. Even if you give them 30 seconds you could at least overturn the asinine calls that make the beneficiaries feel dirty. THAT would go a long way to making it feel better. That intentional grounding for instance. That could have been called in 30 seconds (before the next play runs). And before you say "that takes too much time"... if you are having to make a change to the game 10 times a game then you probably need to look for new officials anyways. Not only that but that is a grand total of 6 minutes. I'd rather have that 6 minutes given to a better officiated game.

Mike
 
Texanmike said:
I'm not speaking about this game specifically, or about the Texans. I've already said that I feel dirty when the Texans get a BS call. I've reffed little league games before (U14) in basketball and soccer. I know it is difficult. I wasn't perfect. I wasn't being paid several thousand dollars/game either. The Texans lost this game, I've said that from the beginning. That isn't always the case. Anyone remember the NBA ref who described the situation in a Rockets game (the guy who got busted) and how it was fixed? I'm not saying NFL games are fixed either. I'm saying that they have a bunch of under qualified refs. If they determine that technology is the best way to get calls right then review entire plays (or at least the parts close to the ball) right after the play is over. Call penalties or reverse bad ones. Hell, can we hear about ONE time that an official is suspended for a BAD CALL? I see the officiating getting worse and worse every year and here is one thing I think that is the cause:

They have increased the number of fouls that are judgement calls. The defenseless receiver? Come on. That is a judgement. Spearing? Maybe they need to look at simplifying the rules a little bit? Remember the roughing the passer call in the Steelers game? Just say you can never, ever, ever hit a QB below the waist. That or move it back to what it was. The rules for the game are so complex and with people moving faster and more complicated rules maybe it is time to look at using reviews for penalties. It could be done just like a booth review. Even if you give them 30 seconds you could at least overturn the asinine calls that make the beneficiaries feel dirty. THAT would go a long way to making it feel better. That intentional grounding for instance. That could have been called in 30 seconds (before the next play runs). And before you say "that takes too much time"... if you are having to make a change to the game 10 times a game then you probably need to look for new officials anyways. Not only that but that is a grand total of 6 minutes. I'd rather have that 6 minutes given to a better officiated game.

Mike
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Mike it takes 6 mins for one call to be reviewed, now. You're talking about drawing out the game alot further than you realize. And as far as "overturning bad calls," it's not gonna happen. Did you forget that it's referees in the replay/review booth as well?? And many of them are in the booth because they aren't qualified enough...or had the right opportunity open up, to get on the field. The crew chiefs/white hats make the calls as to who is on their crew...not the NFL.

Crews stick together for a loooong time...that is one of the most political things about officiating. The replay booth guys aren't going to do anything to hurt their chances to be part of an on-field crew. It's just not gonna happen. And if the "guy in the booth" decides to overturn calls (not that the league would ever make the rule changes happen that would allow that anyway) then he doesn't "have his crew's back." It's one of the very ugly sides of officiating.
 
The facemask on Cody against Foster was marginal in my opinion. He probably wouldn't make it either way, and it's not illegal to tackle with the helmet. It was borderline, and I was not too upset about it.

I was upset about the intentional grounding. That exact play is why they have the rule in the books. It was a picture perfect definition of the rule. It was inexcusable to not call that.

I also thought Kareem got the short end of the stick on that holding call. Revis gets away with that all day long. He was pulling and tugging and yanking on Marshall last night on that 100 yard int he got.

I felt like the officials really wanted the Ravens to score that first td. The two personal fouls on Antonio could have easily been overlooked and usually are.
 
panamamyers said:
The facemask on Cody against Foster was marginal in my opinion. He probably wouldn't make it either way, and it's not illegal to tackle with the helmet. It was borderline, and I was not too upset about it.
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Sorry, but that's a clear facemask, blatant and in the open. No borderline about it. And it looked a whole lot worse on replay. Cody snapped Foster's head around. The refs missing that is unacceptable.

BTW, I'm not in the "they lost because of the refs" boat. I'm just pointing out some bad, bad missed calls that shouldn't be at this level. That facemask wasn't a things moving too fast situation.
 
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.
 
Fuhrer Kubiak obviously runs the Luftwaffe Referee Assocenbund. Let's just blame him for the shitty reffing performance
 
Vinny said:
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.
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Though that may be true, it's no excuse for the poor officiating. Holding may be able to be called on every play and is not, ripping a guy's head off his shoulders should be called every damn time. I'm not saying it changes the outcome of the game, and as I've said, I'm not crying about losing because of the refs, but that call has to be made. No excuse. And if you've got a "whoopie" attitude about it, well, why the hell even have refs if it doesn't appear to matter?

I don't watch the NBA any more because the officiating is so god-awful. If the NFL gets that bad, well, that's just going to suck.
 
Speedy said:
Though that may be true, it's no excuse for the poor officiating. Holding may be able to be called on every play and is not, ripping a guy's head off his shoulders should be called every damn time. I'm not saying it changes the outcome of the game, and as I've said, I'm not crying about losing because of the refs, but that call has to be made. No excuse. And if you've got a "whoopie" attitude about it, well, why the hell even have refs if it doesn't appear to matter?

I don't watch the NBA any more because the officiating is so god-awful. If the NFL gets that bad, well, that's just going to suck.
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I'm not excusing it, but the game is fast, there are 22 guys flying around hitting each other for a play that is over in 5 seconds or so. That rip across the facemask only took a second and it's possible that the officials had guys in their view or whatever...it's just impossible to see everything all the time.

The NBA is different. Crap like the superstars having a different standard or certain guys can walk...all that is bush league. I don't see that in the NFL. Just human mistakes. I can live with human mistakes. That contrived crap to please the home fans is something that drives me from the NBA as well. It's a travishamockery.
 
Luv_ya_blue said:
Mike it takes 6 mins for one call to be reviewed, now. You're talking about drawing out the game alot further than you realize. And as far as "overturning bad calls," it's not gonna happen. Did you forget that it's referees in the replay/review booth as well?? And many of them are in the booth because they aren't qualified enough...or had the right opportunity open up, to get on the field. The crew chiefs/white hats make the calls as to who is on their crew...not the NFL.

Crews stick together for a loooong time...that is one of the most political things about officiating. The replay booth guys aren't going to do anything to hurt their chances to be part of an on-field crew. It's just not gonna happen. And if the "guy in the booth" decides to overturn calls (not that the league would ever make the rule changes happen that would allow that anyway) then he doesn't "have his crew's back." It's one of the very ugly sides of officiating.
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Booth reviews take forever right now. I'm not saying we need to get under the hood, I'm saying a guy in the booth calls down and says "dude, you missed an obvious face mask.

What I'm hearing you say is "they don't get it right and it might not work well politically". In the military we just changed the way business is done for the last 20 years. I can't believe that you are telling me that the military can adjust and allow homosexuals (not a political statement, it is the biggest culture change I can think of in 20 seconds) but the nfl can't change the culture of officiating to get more calls right? Really?

Mike
 
Vinny said:
I'm not excusing it, but the game is fast, there are 22 guys flying around hitting each other for a play that is over in 5 seconds or so. That rip across the facemask only took a second and it's possible that the officials had guys in their view or whatever...it's just impossible to see everything all the time.

The NBA is different. Crap like the superstars having a different standard or certain guys can walk...all that is bush league. I don't see that in the NFL. Just human mistakes. I can live with human mistakes. That contrived crap to please the home fans is something that drives me from the NBA as well. It's a travishamockery.
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Manning/Brady don't enjoy calls that other QBs don't get?

Mike
 
Vinny said:
eh, facemask was missed....whoopie. you can call holding on just about every play. Harping on getting screwed by penalties is kinda weak. All 32 teams deal with the same refs each week.
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My 2 cents.. if the NFL is truly concerned about player safety, these things ought to be reviewed. I'm not for the NFL fining players, but they do. We should have heard about a fine handed out for this.

That face mask we got away with (was it Manning on Rice?) not so much, it wasn't as blatant or as dangerous, should have been called, I don't by the refs reasoning, but we got away with one.
 
Texanmike said:
Booth reviews take forever right now. I'm not saying we need to get under the hood, I'm saying a guy in the booth calls down and says "dude, you missed an obvious face mask.

What I'm hearing you say is "they don't get it right and it might not work well politically". In the military we just changed the way business is done for the last 20 years. I can't believe that you are telling me that the military can adjust and allow homosexuals (not a political statement, it is the biggest culture change I can think of in 20 seconds) but the nfl can't change the culture of officiating to get more calls right? Really?

Mike
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I'm not saying that a booth review of calls missed/wrong CAN'T happen, I'm saying it WON'T happen. To compare the culture in the military with officiating in the NFL is comparing apples to...oh I don't know...middle eastern seashells??? The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another--so much so that it's not even fruitful to comment any further on the subject comparison.

The point I'm making is one that Vinny has eloquently stated...it's human error. All it takes is one guy standing/moving in front of a play covered by ONE (not 7) officials. Every official on the field has something different to look at and for. You guys act like all 7 are following the ball carrier the entire time. At BEST, you've got 2 officials out of 7 (NFL) that are watching the ball carrier. As an official you're trained NOT to "watch the game" as a fan/spectator. You've got a zone/area to watch and make sure violations aren't taking place.

So, you're watching your area for whatever you're supposed to be looking for and then the RB comes into your area and you miss something. I don't know what else you guys want...as Vinny said, it's human error. Simple as that.

And as far as the booth sending down a "hey guys you missed a facemask, personal foul, holding, clipping, or fart in a whirlwind"...it's never gonna happen. There isn't ONE COACH in the NFL that wants that. And there aren't a whole lotta fans that want it either.
 
They weren't in position to see the face-mask and I suspect they guy doing it knew that. I will say this, though: had he not done it, Arian was still no way, no how getting the first down. It wasn't a play-changing foul.
 
Now I agree with this thread. It has always seemed like zebras are doing their best to find opportunities to flag the Texans. They don't get many breaks.
 
Runner said:
What is the motive? Why are the league and its officials conspiring against the Texans?

I don't believe a conspiracy exists. Fans of every team could find plays like that just as Texans fans do.
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If you're viewed as a "gimmie" win and the NFL's prison b-yatch you're not supposed to fight you're supposed to lay down and take it. When the Texans DO fight the refs have to subtlely remind them they're not going to win. The one thing almost as infuriating as the mystery calls against the Texans (i.e a Ravens O-lineman falling on a Texan who's on the ground and LEADING WITH HIS ELBOW! THEN the TEXAN being called for roughness for pushing the guy off him while they're still on the ground) are the a-hole commentators going on about how great WHOMEVER the Texans opponents are. I figure you're playing against opposing fans, the other team AND the officials...you got nothing to lose anyway. Screw it. Hospitalize some cats. If you're destined to be a crab in the bucket be that guy who stops everyone ELSE from making it to the play offs and bruise whenever possible.
 
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