Owen Daniels/Texans playing "contract chicken"'

[Runner]

Hey Eric! Good to see you step up for the players who went above their contract and went to Pro Bowl or what ever. What is your opinion on those like Okam and Travis Johnson who have not lived up to their deals? I am sure you believe those players should "reward" the owner by refunding some cash?

Dunta can buy his Houston property out of the $10 million & if he is real good and gets franchised again he should get another hefty $10 -12 million next season. By then his skill set may be diminishing and I know you don't want Mr McNair to be paying DR on a longtime contract when the CB may not be earning the $.

There is no need for players to give refunds in most cases. The teams, within NFL rules, can and do cut players and negate the rest of the contracts. Since these "contracts" can have large amounts of money that will be paid solely at at the discretion of the team, it is important that players get the details as good as they can before signing. This process is seen as player greed by many here, while the team taking advantage of rules in their favor is seen as good business sense. Personally, I think the team and players are doing the right things for themselves within the system as it exists.

 

[CloakNNNdagger]

There is no need for players to give refunds in most cases. The teams, within NFL rules, can and do cut players and negate the rest of the contracts. Since these "contracts" can have large amounts of money that will be paid solely at at the discretion of the team, it is important that players get the details as good as they can before signing. This process is seen as player greed by many here, while the team taking advantage of rules in their favor is seen as good business sense. Personally, I think the team and players are doing the right things for themselves within the system as it exists.

Possibly heralding a real need to CHANGE the system.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Daniels could have been had for a 1st and 3rd. Certainly he would be worth the price tag for the top player at his position and at his age, but no one bit. OD's stats suggest he is a top 4-6 TE, but he is on a very good offense that allows him plenty of space to operate. His value perceived by him is a bit more than other teams and his current employer for 2009 have offered for various reasons - one being the uncertainty of the CBA.

Once again, he is signed for 2009 and needs to help this team in one area - the red zone. Get it done, and we should lock him up. Long term contracts go to those that not only produce, but make others and their unit better.

 

[Runner]

Possibly heralding a real need to CHANGE the system.

There isn't an easy answer. A rookie salary structure would be a very good thing. After that...

Fully guranteed contracts lead to the expensive deadwood seen in basketball.

The problem is that the owners negotiate all these rules - salary cap, RFA, franchising, etc. - for one simple reason. As a group, they won't control themselves. They are as much or even more to blame for the huge salaries than the players. Look at the guaranteed money they are throwing at first and second draft picks. The owners do anything to sign them, and half the time they don't pan out.

The teams are as much to blame as the players for the current mess, but players take the criticism for greed. There are a lot of very greedy players who aren't much as human beings either. There are more players out there who are truly good individuals Automatically excoriating any player that dares question anything the Texans do or offer just irritates me. I guess that is all I really have to say about the matter, so I'll (try to) let it drop.

 

[badboy]

There is no need for players to give refunds in most cases. The teams, within NFL rules, can and do cut players and negate the rest of the contracts. Since these "contracts" can have large amounts of money that will be paid solely at at the discretion of the team, it is important that players get the details as good as they can before signing. This process is seen as player greed by many here, while the team taking advantage of rules in their favor is seen as good business sense. Personally, I think the team and players are doing the right things for themselves within the system as it exists.

I'm ok with the team or a player getting as much they can under reasonable negotiating. Sort of like a guy that sells ice for $1 bag but wants $15 after a hurricane takes out electricity. Supply and demand work for me except when someone wants to get in my wallet and takes advantage of me when I'm down. Why don't more players, especially rookies have contracts that are incentive laden? Why did not OD have a clause saying if I go to Pro Bowl I get another $100k?

I think it is a wash between players who don't get the last year or two of a contract and those players who never live up to the years they do get paid. Yes there are some players like Slaton or Diles who play above their pay grade just as there are those like Boselli who get paid for doing nothing on the field.

 

[Goatcheese]

Solomon Wilcots said it. Even though I think he was being facetious, it was definitely a random gut shot.

Solomon Wilcots? Who?

I think it may have been because we did not have much behind Winston compared with who we have behind Demeco.

You have a point. When Diles and Ryans were on the field together you could argue that it was Diles who was playing better football. If Diles returns fully healthy I don't think it would kill us to be without Ryans the way the line would be in serious trouble without Winston to anchor the right side.

 

[wags]

Texans | Daniels fined for missing minicamp
Comment (0)
Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:03:37 -0700

Updating a previous report, John McClain, of the Houston Chronicle, reports the Houston Texans have fined TE Owen Daniels $9,000 for missing the team's mandatory minicamp.

from kffl.com

 

[spurstexanstros]

I thought he was signed. I heard on the radio here he was signed to a one year deal. Why is he missing?

 

[eriadoc]

So after 13 pages, can we just sum up the thread as:

Capitalism is OK as long as it's one way,
Players bad, Team Good?

That seems to be what 90% of this board believes.

 

[HOU-TEX]

So after 13 pages, can we just sum up the thread as:

Capitalism is OK as long as it's one way,
Players bad, Team Good?

That seems to be what 90% of this board believes.

Count me in the 10%. I think both sides are trying to do what's best for them. Which I am just fine with and eventually I think it'll be worked out. Although, if other players and their agents continue to strike deals I might begin to wonder what it is that OD (and Dunta's) agent are trying to do.

Personally, I would likely never blame the player. IMO, most of the time it's the agent that wants his $share$.

I will remain neutral for now. If D-Ryans or anyone else with a different agent strike a deal I will begin to lean if favor of the team.

 

[NitroGSXR]

So after 13 pages, can we just sum up the thread as:

Capitalism is OK as long as it's one way,
Players bad, Team Good?

That seems to be what 90% of this board believes.

Capitalism is fine. No hard line about it either.

Count me in the percentage as one who does not care how much these guys are making. It's none of my business.

I'm happy with the product being put out.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I thought he was signed. I heard on the radio here he was signed to a one year deal. Why is he missing?

He signed and then decided not to report to mandatory mini-camp.

He's trying to hammer out a long term deal.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

So after 13 pages, can we just sum up the thread as:

Capitalism is OK as long as it's one way,
Players bad, Team Good?

That seems to be what 90% of this board believes.

Personally, I'm trying to stay out of this whole thing as much as possible. My basic stance on this is...

It's negotiation. You never get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. I have no problems with guys holding out. That's one of the only tools they've got to work with.

But I understand that most fans what all their guys to be team players who don't care about themselves or how much they make because they just want to play football because of the love of the game and the love of the team. Most fans see the big salaries and consider it gauche to even talk about that while so many people don't even have jobs in this economy. Most fans feel that athletes are just greedy bastards who are only in it for the money.

No biggie. I just think that's a fan-centric view and naive to the realities of the situation. As a fan, you just want what's best for your team and having your guys hold out doesn't seem to be in your team's best interest.

 

[GP]

Personally, I'm trying to stay out of this whole thing as much as possible. My basic stance on this is...

It's negotiation. You never get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. I have no problems with guys holding out. That's one of the only tools they've got to work with.

But I understand that most fans what all their guys to be team players who don't care about themselves or how much they make because they just want to play football because of the love of the game and the love of the team. Most fans see the big salaries and consider it gauche to even talk about that while so many people don't even have jobs in this economy. Most fans feel that athletes are just greedy bastards who are only in it for the money.

No biggie. I just think that's a fan-centric view and naive to the realities of the situation. As a fan, you just want what's best for your team and having your guys hold out doesn't seem to be in your team's best interest.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. It has its faults, but it's easily the best economic system in terms of allowing a person the freedom and ability to pursue financial success.

Fan-centric is right. As a fan, I want players to get on with the show already. We get it: You're a good player and you want an increase. But it's hard for us to empathize with pro sports players who are able to flagrantly abandon their workplace--Any of us would get fired for that. And whether that's an instance of us fans just not understanding that we live in a different world than athletes or not, it remains that the player is dragging his feet on a deal. He's doing little jabs, such as not showing up for things and making comments to the public (blogs, in this instance) and to the media.

If an athlete is miles apart from the FO, three actions are possible: 1.) Say goodbye and go play somewhere else, or 2.) Negotiate and play all the subtle mind games, which includes the player making snarky comments to the media and abandoning the facility like a union worker on strike, or 3.) Do the deal, and move on.

Owen won't say goodbye, so he's got interest in staying here and it appears No. 1 (above) isn't going to happen...yet. But he doesn't like the deal he's been offered, so the stalling and negotiating tactics are in play right now (see No. 2, above). I think a lot of fans, at this stage of the game, are anxious that the FO is going to give out a silly amount of money to Daniels.

If No. 3 had happened, life goes on and it seems that everybody wins. But no, No. 3 can't happen because Daniels and/or his agent(s) have not accepted what seemed to be a pretty good offer from the Texans. Whether that's all in the details of how OD makes that money, or if OD and his agent(s) are just trying to pinch the nickel until it poots, is beyond me.

All I know is that at some point, THIS fan just wants closure. Are you in need of mega-millions? OK. Did you not get every penny you asked for, and so you're holding out for "your" dollar amount that you've invented in your brain? Not OK. Negotiate, find a win-win, and move on.

I guess when you're trying to make the team you'll take whatever you're given. But when you prove your worth, you want probably more than you should have. It's a crazy train ride from trying to make the team a few years back to one day holding out for a deal that would have been Top 5 money.

Throw in all the other players who will want deals, and it's scary. Is THIS the guy we want to give more coin to than we should? I'm not so sure.

 

[eriadoc]

Pretty much sums it up for me.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. It has its faults, but it's easily the best economic system in terms of allowing a person the freedom and ability to pursue financial success.

Fan-centric is right. As a fan, I want players to get on with the show already. We get it: You're a good player and you want an increase. But it's hard for us to empathize with pro sports players who are able to flagrantly abandon their workplace--Any of us would get fired for that.

Or, conversely, as a fan, I want the show to go on. So the team needs to go ahead and get these guys their money - they've earned it. It's hard for me to empathize with teams who don't fairly reward their players when in private industry, I can just go to another company. There are more than 32 companies available for me to ply my trade in.

If you can't empathize with payers who make tens of millions of dollars, I just don't get how you can empathize with teams that make hundreds of millions of dollars. If the money is the issue, then apply that standard fairly.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

Or, conversely, as a fan, I want the show to go on. So the team needs to go ahead and get these guys their money - they've earned it. It's hard for me to empathize with teams who don't fairly reward their players when in private industry, I can just go to another company. There are more than 32 companies available for me to ply my trade in.
If you can't empathize with payers who make tens of millions of dollars, I just don't get how you can empathize with teams that make hundreds of millions of dollars. If the money is the issue, then apply that standard fairly.

There is one company (NFL) with 32 regional sites or franchises. The process for employee selection, retention, and compensation is agreed upon by the NFL (not individual teams) and the players' union. Individual teams and individual players are limited in thier flexibility to acquire a player from a franchise or for a player to move to another franchise by this agreement. Simply what we see in the NFL is not an example of free market capitalism at work(as if it really exists outside of sports). It does not help that sports unlike other businesses, where salary negotiations are held in public. (example: When my wife held off signing her promotion contract while bickering over $$$ about 5 people, not 5 billion knew about it). In short, what we see has elements of the "real" world, but is not a business structure that is relates very well to other corporate models.

 

[hookinreds]

There is one company (NFL) with 32 regional sites or franchises. The process for employee selection, retention, and compensation is agreed upon by the NFL (not individual teams) and the players' union. Individual teams and individual players are limited in thier flexibility to acquire a player from a franchise or for a player to move to another franchise by this agreement. Simply what we see in the NFL is not an example of free market capitalism at work(as if it really exists outside of sports). It does not help that sports unlike other businesses, where salary negotiations are held in public. (example: When my wife held off signing her promotion contract while bickering over $$$ about 5 people, not 5 billion knew about it). In short, what we see has elements of the "real" world, but is not a business structure that is relates very well to other corporate models.

I think my head just exploded!

 

[eriadoc]

There is one company (NFL) with 32 regional sites or franchises. The process for employee selection, retention, and compensation is agreed upon by the NFL (not individual teams) and the players' union. Individual teams and individual players are limited in thier flexibility to acquire a player from a franchise or for a player to move to another franchise by this agreement. Simply what we see in the NFL is not an example of free market capitalism at work(as if it really exists outside of sports). It does not help that sports unlike other businesses, where salary negotiations are held in public. (example: When my wife held off signing her promotion contract while bickering over $$$ about 5 people, not 5 billion knew about it). In short, what we see has elements of the "real" world, but is not a business structure that is relates very well to other corporate models.

All of which supports the notion that there's no good reason for fans to support the team over the player as a default position, which seems to be the case.

 

[GP]

Or, conversely, as a fan, I want the show to go on. So the team needs to go ahead and get these guys their money - they've earned it. It's hard for me to empathize with teams who don't fairly reward their players when in private industry, I can just go to another company. There are more than 32 companies available for me to ply my trade in.

If you can't empathize with payers who make tens of millions of dollars, I just don't get how you can empathize with teams that make hundreds of millions of dollars. If the money is the issue, then apply that standard fairly.

Well, I want to see my TEAM win. I want to see my TEAM play on Sundays.

A TEAM is made up of individuals, each with their own monetary worth as designated by the TEAM'S front office and/or the other variables surrounding the situation.

I wouldn't ***** about the QB or the RB or a star WR doing this. Those are positions that warrant the looseness of the purse strings. Those guys touch the ball more, they make the bulk of plays, and they open things up for the supporting cast (such as a freaking Tight End, for crying out loud).

If this TEAM needs a superstar TE so badly that it will give in and overpay for Owen Daniels, then I don't think I'm going to like what happens to a few other players on down the road. I want my big money tied up in Mario Williams, Steve Slaton, Andre Johnson, and maybe an extra lineman or two on either side of the ball. Not on a TE.

I just think that's upside down thinking, and it's very short-sighted. We draft too well, with the staff we have now, to go and panic and act like we'll never be able to unearth another TE.

Additionally, you conveniently leave out the part about how Owen Superstar Daniels had been offered what appears to be a pretty fair deal, yet turned it down and is still negotiating--Let's just be honest for a second and not act like he's having to beg for dinner scraps

And you neglect to admit that I have said over and over that "IF" it's only because the Texans FO has crafted the deal to be pretty incentive-heavy in order for him to get his coin...then my panties will be instantly unbunched because I can see where a player would hesitate to sign a deal that puts too much burden on achieving lofty goals that might be too hard to achieve.

But I don't think that's the case. It seems Owen and his agents are laying the framework for how he's a can't-do-without player. We seem to have a lot of those popping up lately. Which seems to come with the territory once your TEAM stops sucking and the can't-do-without players think they can cash in on the growing success of the TEAM.

One thing that has impressed me about Rick Smith is that he's not doing the outrageous contracts for players that are marginal. We might have acquired some marginal players, but they're here because they accepted some risk on their own side to start off their tenure with us. We avoided the Cedric Benson deal, which I think hindsight will prove was a good decision.

DeMeco miiiight be another player that I would want to spend some extra money on. But then we have a 1st rounder in Cushing....what happens if that dude blows up and goes all kinds of crazy in his rookie year, then follows it up with a solid sophomore year? Makes the Pro Bowl? Wins DROY? You don't think we'll need some extra coin to sign Cushing at some point?

I'm not in favor of overspending on Owen Daniels. And I don't like the position he and his agents are taking. Unless it's due to a loopy contract. Which I think is a long shot, btw.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

All of which supports the notion that there's no good reason for fans to support the team over the player as a default position, which seems to be the case.

Yeah, to me it is just business, and the players have only so many options besides shutting up and playing for league minimiums. It is in players' personal best interest make as much they can because they are one play from being done (see charles spencer). Those guys are the one who are going to 45 with a body which works like it is 60 because of the stress put on in it a relative short career. My only gripe is when players state or even hint is about other things that are not money (respect, security, etc.). I am stealing this from a talk show (Rome I think), "The more someone says it is not about the money, the more it is about the money."

 

[GP]

All of which supports the notion that there's no good reason for fans to support the team over the player as a default position, which seems to be the case.

You're framing your argument.

I have zero problem with the team's FO spending extra money on the players that we can't afford to lose. I argue WHO those players are.

Owen Daniels? There's no way in Dallas, TX that THAT guy is worth laying out a lot of money for. And I think he fits our offense well, has produced well, but he's not the can't-do-without player that it seems he's being made out to be.

And that's not "anti-player"/"pro-team" to have that stance, eriadoc. That's just refusing to bite the bait that had been historically gobbled up by the previous GM and HC for the Texans.

You reach a point in time, as a TEAM, where you better stop acting like a sucky team. Sucky teams have to overpay for average players; players that might not really offer anything more than consistency of production. They're not game-changers, but they do enough to warrant the extra spending on them. Because the next-best guy on the roster might be a guy who would rather have a rapping career than play for the Texans.

Being a sucky team is how we got Todd Wade at a stupid price. And to a degree, that's how Ahman Green got here. But once you hit that next level, which I think we're either at or on the verge of being at, you better be smart with your money. The lure for players to be here needs to be "Because that's a good place to challenge for the playoffs and a chance at a Super Bowl."

No outrageously and famously talented players are flocking to the Jags right now. Only the ones (Holt, Porter, etc.) who are getting over-paid for once being a good player. The Jags are in a really bad spot right now, and so they're grabbing up some questionable "talent" because nobody with brains wants a part of that soap opera. So let the Jags make those deals. IIRC, they got into that kind of deal with Porter. Wow.

I don't want to have two or three good years, because we spent the bank on everybody that "deserved" to be raised, followed by the inability to operate within the salary cap. Which could last a few years. If that makes me a vulture who wants to pick at the carcasses of the over-deserving players, then I guess that's who I am.

 

[barrett]

...you conveniently leave out the part about how Owen Superstar Daniels had been offered what appears to be a pretty fair deal, yet turned it down and is still negotiating--Let's just be honest for a second and not act like he's having to beg for dinner scraps

And you neglect to admit that I have said over and over that "IF" it's only because the Texans FO has crafted the deal to be pretty incentive-heavy in order for him to get his coin...then my panties will be instantly unbunched because I can see where a player would hesitate to sign a deal that puts too much burden on achieving lofty goals that might be too hard to achieve.

But I don't think that's the case.

You don't know what Daniels was offered. No one in this discussion does. You don't know what Dunta was offered. No one does. There have been "reports". I don't know how anyone can make any argument or judgement about any player or the FO without knowing the facts. I think you guys should take a breath and remember that you are speculating.

 

[disaacks3]

All of which supports the notion that there's no good reason for fans to support the team over the player as a default position, which seems to be the case.

That PoV assumes that the fans have zero knowledge of a player's relative "worth" and (comes across as) the player should always get whatever he's asking for.

IMHO - That's simply too over-simplified a description. I actually see the process as even EASIER to discern the real value of a player than an employee in a "real world" company. In the NFL we can compare against people working the exact same position, not a "like position".

As fans, we should be conscious of the team's overall salary cap, proportionate costs per position, and "relative worth" to the team. This simply makes for a more informed, lively discussion.
All the previous said, I stick by my original position that I personally don't believe that OD should be compensated at the level of the second-best TE in the NFL. I can say that without even knowing the exact contractural $$, as that's not relative to my evaluation of him as a top-5 guy, but not top-2.

Feel free to disagree, but MY argument isn't based on the sheer $$ AMOUNT relative to my much-lower salary, the economy, etc. - Rather it's based on his worth within the NFL "system" as compared to other players at his position.

 

[barrett]

now that's a good theoretical answer!

 

[Playmaker]

The guy was a 4th round pick. He's replaceable. FO should not give him a nickel more then fair market value, and I'm sure they've already came up with those numbers and gave it to Owen and his agent. Owen needs to come to a realization that he won't see a sudden spike in his market value just because Kellen Winslow got some ridiculous money.

 

[Polo]

I could care less about the players getting what they asked for. If the front office could sign them for snowcones I'd be all for it. Not my problem.

I will be upset with the front office though, if they let things like this affect wins and losses. I am not mad at the players for negotiating/using leverage and I am not upset with the front office offering what they thing is fair market value.

Whether or not Owen Daniels remains a Texan is not important to me. Whether or not the team continues to improve is.

 

[buddyboy]

The guy was a 4th round pick. He's replaceable. FO should not give him a nickel more then fair market value, and I'm sure they've already came up with those numbers and gave it to Owen and his agent. Owen needs to come to a realization that he won't see a sudden spike in his market value just because Kellen Winslow got some ridiculous money.

It doesn't matter where you're drafted, if you produce, you get paid. You think since Reggie Bush WAS a 2nd overall pick he's gonna get a max contract? You think since Tom Brady was a 6th rounder he's replaceable?

And the sad thing is, the "market value" of a players IS indeed correlated to how much other players of similar caliber and position are getting paid.

 

[GP]

You don't know what Daniels was offered. No one in this discussion does. You don't know what Dunta was offered. No one does. There have been "reports". I don't know how anyone can make any argument or judgement about any player or the FO without knowing the facts. I think you guys should take a breath and remember that you are speculating.

Yeah, because we all know that message boards are full of people who have nothing but the truth to relay to everybody.

I hate to be an ass about this, but here goes: It's sort of a hobby to get on a message board (of any type) and express your opinion. If truth is mandatory, then there would be only about 3 people on here with four threads, and they'd all be boring discussions.

To be burdened with the responsibility and duty of saying "IMO" or "I'm just thinking that's what's going on" after each sentence we type is dumb, isn't it? I mean, we're all adults here. There's a great deal of speculation because none of us are on the inside of the Texans organization. Hell, it wouldn't matter if we were on the inside. Kubiak and company lied to David Carr about who they would select. I have proof in my private messages box, to use for just this type of discussion.

So chill out. It's. Just. An. Opinion.

Nobody's going to die because I theorize that Owen Daniels has rejected a fair offer. Sheesh....

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Yeah, because we all know that message boards are full of people who have nothing but the truth to relay to everybody.

I hate to be an ass about this, but here goes: It's sort of a hobby to get on a message board (of any type) and express your opinion. If truth is mandatory, then there would be only about 3 people on here with four threads, and they'd all be boring discussions.

To be burdened with the responsibility and duty of saying "IMO" or "I'm just thinking that's what's going on" after each sentence we type is dumb, isn't it? I mean, we're all adults here. There's a great deal of speculation because none of us are on the inside of the Texans organization. Hell, it wouldn't matter if we were on the inside. Kubiak and company lied to David Carr about who they would select. I have proof in my private messages box, to use for just this type of discussion.

So chill out. It's. Just. An. Opinion.

Nobody's going to die because I theorize that Owen Daniels has rejected a fair offer. Sheesh....

You are completely wrong, in my opinion.

 

[GP]

You are completely wrong, in my opinion.

Well, thanks for the input. Let me know what happens when you're in on his contract negotiations. Because the Texans aren't giving up much info, and Owen Daniels can't find a contract he likes.

For the record: I hope I'm wrong, too. I just don't think we can make it to the next level without him. Our run at the playoffs hinges on a TE. That dastardly front office has tied our hero to the train tracks, and the contract train is speeding toward him.

 

[barrett]

Yeah, because we all know that message boards are full of people who have nothing but the truth to relay to everybody.

I hate to be an ass about this, but here goes: It's sort of a hobby to get on a message board (of any type) and express your opinion. If truth is mandatory, then there would be only about 3 people on here with four threads, and they'd all be boring discussions.

To be burdened with the responsibility and duty of saying "IMO" or "I'm just thinking that's what's going on" after each sentence we type is dumb, isn't it? I mean, we're all adults here. There's a great deal of speculation because none of us are on the inside of the Texans organization. Hell, it wouldn't matter if we were on the inside. Kubiak and company lied to David Carr about who they would select. I have proof in my private messages box, to use for just this type of discussion.

So chill out. It's. Just. An. Opinion.

Nobody's going to die because I theorize that Owen Daniels has rejected a fair offer. Sheesh....

I'm fully aware that message boards are made up of a bunch of people basing there opinions on speculation and hearsay. Not many posts are worth reading. I don't read them all. Over time I've learned who consistently has relevant opinions that try their best to base them on fact. I'm not panicking. I can assure you. But don't take my word for it.

 

[beerlover]

sports agents cause issues between players & teams not usually the player who represents himself or a class organization like the Texans who are willing to pay top money per position thats within reason. look @ Dunta or DeMeco same thing as Owen basicly seeking top 5 money @ their position. All of which are worth it by the way, should get it & probably will get it.

my recommendation: fire the agent & keep all the money while getting top 5 pay & move forward towards a Championship

 

[GP]

I'm fully aware that message boards are made up of a bunch of people basing there opinions on speculation and hearsay. Not many posts are worth reading. I don't read them all. Over time I've learned who consistently has relevant opinions that try their best to base them on fact. I'm not panicking. I can assure you. But don't take my word for it.

I guess we all have our preferences as to who we like to read, and who we could care less about. Message board dynamics, I suppose.

I don't peg anybody as being more right than anyone else. Because I think there's an element involved whereby we are sometimes already going into a topic with an opinion formed...and we seek out those who are like-minded and the little gangs have already been established on a hot-button topic. It's like the street fight scene in Anchorman. And I'm not bashing anybody, just to clarify. I'm guilty of it, too.

My favorite threads are the ones where the posts take twists and turns, and you can see where there's a lot of good ideas being put forth. LOL. But the threads with the longest pages/post counts tend to be the ones that are extremely opinion-based: Player X is better than Player Y, etc.

 

[dalemurphy]

I guess we all have our preferences as to who we like to read, and who we could care less about. Message board dynamics, I suppose.

I don't peg anybody as being more right than anyone else. Because I think there's an element involved whereby we are sometimes already going into a topic with an opinion formed...and we seek out those who are like-minded and the little gangs have already been established on a hot-button topic. It's like the street fight scene in Anchorman. And I'm not bashing anybody, just to clarify. I'm guilty of it, too.

My favorite threads are the ones where the posts take twists and turns, and you can see where there's a lot of good ideas being put forth. LOL. But the threads with the longest pages/post counts tend to be the ones that are extremely opinion-based: Player X is better than Player Y, etc.

You are nuts! Player Y is much better than Player X!

 

[Kaiser Toro]

You are nuts! Player Y is much better than Player X!

I would bring in X at league minimum or ask Y to move from DE to RT, in my opinion.

 

[eriadoc]

You are completely wrong, in my opinion.

Well, thanks for the input. Let me know what happens when you're in on his contract negotiations.

LOL, missed it by that much.

 

[Playmaker]

It doesn't matter where you're drafted, if you produce, you get paid. You think since Reggie Bush WAS a 2nd overall pick he's gonna get a max contract? You think since Tom Brady was a 6th rounder he's replaceable?

And the sad thing is, the "market value" of a players IS indeed correlated to how much other players of similar caliber and position are getting paid.

All things are relative, Tom Brady led his team to 3 Super Bowls and was SB MVP twice, and he plays the QB position. What kind of example is that? Did Owen Daniels do anything close to that? Agree on Reggie not getting max money because he's been a one trick pony.

I guess I should expound my stance. OD is a 4th round pick who plays the tight end position. He made one Pro Bowl. While he's important to the Texans offense, he's not as important as the QB position, especially one who led his team to 3 SBs. OD is replaceable IMO. That's why the Texans stocked up on TE this draft. I'm not saying any of them will pick up where OD left off if OD continues to hold out or won't sign the extension the Texans are offering, but I think someone will step up and take advantage of OD's situation. Either that, or the Texans will have to alter their offense a bit (worst case scenario). If OD keeps refusing the extension and either plays for the one year deal or continues to holdout, expect the Texans to give alot of playing time to the other tight ends and see if someone emerges that can replace OD beyond this year. Then maybe trade OD if we can.

If OD and his agent are basing their demands on Kellen Winslow's deal, they need to reevaluate their demands. They're not sniffing anywhere close to what Kellen got, that was just ridiculous money. Throw the Winslow deal out of the window when determining fair market value for the tight end position. Or replace OD.

 

[barrett]

I guess we all have our preferences as to who we like to read, and who we could care less about. Message board dynamics, I suppose.

I don't peg anybody as being more right than anyone else. Because I think there's an element involved whereby we are sometimes already going into a topic with an opinion formed...and we seek out those who are like-minded and the little gangs have already been established on a hot-button topic. It's like the street fight scene in Anchorman. And I'm not bashing anybody, just to clarify. I'm guilty of it, too.

My favorite threads are the ones where the posts take twists and turns, and you can see where there's a lot of good ideas being put forth. LOL. But the threads with the longest pages/post counts tend to be the ones that are extremely opinion-based: Player X is better than Player Y, etc.

good post. I agree. I think the best threads are the ones where lots of people are being open minded and basing their opinions on facts. This isn't one of them for the most part. But regardless, I agree with you.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

good post. I agree. I think the best threads are the ones where lots of people are being open minded and basing their opinions on facts. This isn't one of them for the most part. But regardless, I agree with you.

I disagree.

The best threads are the threads where I win.

And since I always win, the best threads are simply the threads I post in.

 

[barrett]

I guess no one is going to reply to my post.

 

[thunderkyss]

Really

 

[NitroGSXR]

I guess no one is going to reply to my post.

Why? You said not many of our posts aren't worth reading. Kind of discouraging hearing that from you. In fact your post made me want to retort to PMs to a few people showing my appreciation for their posts.

Eh. We're all armchair QBs. Even the best of us here. What I do know is that the information that I accrue in TexansTalk is unmatched by any other site, newspaper, and TV show. I definitely think most posts are worth reading here so I don't have much of a response for you, you... you... chair destroyer....

 

[threetoedpete]

If OD and his agent are basing their demands on Kellen Winslow's deal, they need to reevaluate their demands. They're not sniffing anywhere close to what Kellen got, that was just ridiculous money. Throw the Winslow deal out of the window when determining fair market value for the tight end position. Or replace OD.

Owen Daniel's and his agent are basing his contract demands on what the market will bear nothing more. The risk right now is all on Owen Daniels side of the ledger. @ 2.79 million he is at the very least shorting himself 50% conservatively, of what the current market says he is worth. Plus he Owen Daniels, assumes the added risk of never realizing that lost money if he is injured.


So what I want you to do hot shot this week is go to your current employer and tell him for the good of the company and to keep harmony, you're willing to take a fifty per cent decrease in your salary for the next two years ? And... if you get injured it's perfectly ok by you if he never cuts you another check again. And you'll dispense with all worker comp benefits. Fact is Owen Daniels is not vested yet. He has two more years to go. I wouldn't do it and neither would you. It'd be one thing if he was a marginal talent as you imply. But he's not. There's not but a hand full of young TEs in the NFL that can do to a zone defense what he can do.

I didn't think so.

 

[barrett]

Why? You said not many of our posts aren't worth reading. Kind of discouraging hearing that from you. In fact your post made me want to retort to PMs to a few people showing my appreciation for their posts.

Eh. We're all armchair QBs. Even the best of us here. What I do know is that the information that I accrue in TexansTalk is unmatched by any other site, newspaper, and TV show. I definitely think most posts are worth reading here so I don't have much of a response for you, you... you... chair destroyer....

i was making a joke in reference to pencil neck's post. sorry. i was trying to be subtle.

i completely agree that as a source for information on the Houston Texans that TexansTalk is second to none. But you need to remember that not every post that contains information is accurate. If a post says " so in so was offered x millions and he's crazy to turn that down." It doesn't make that "x millions" that he was "offered" fact. But what tends to happen is that we get it in our head that so in so was offered x millions and he's undermining the team by turning that down. Your opinion of that player is likely altered by the supposed information you've received. But you have to keep in mind that you don't know the details of the contract. A contract of that nature can be extremely complex. You don't know if the "x millions" that he was offered is even accurate.

I think you can site TC as an ideal example of someone who posts on this board that try's to ALWAYS maintain fact based posts UNLESS she's specifically siting something as her opinion. And guess what, I read all of TC's posts. Because she maintains perspective at all times. If I remember correctly, she practices law. It's a very literal job where every single definition has to be defined so that there can be no assumptions or guesses. When someone is speculating, it has to be clarified as such. I think otherwise it's just a bunch of people screaming about how the earth is flat or round.

I know it's not so serious as all this. In the end we're just fans sharing our opinions but I just don't see the harm in well informed opinions whereas I do see the harm in ill-informed ones.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

i was making a joke in reference to pencil neck's post. sorry. i was trying to be subtle.

That'll learn ya.

 

[disaacks3]

Owen Daniel's and his agent are basing his contract demands on what the market will bear nothing more. The risk right now is all on Owen Daniels side of the ledger. @ 2.79 million he is at the very least shorting himself 50% conservatively, of what the current market says he is worth. Plus he Owen Daniels, assumes the added risk of never realizing that lost money if he is injured.


So what I want you to do hot shot this week is go to your current employer and tell him for the good of the company and to keep harmony, you're willing to take a fifty per cent decrease in your salary for the next two years ? And... if you get injured it's perfectly ok by you if he never cuts you another check again. And you'll dispense with all worker comp benefits. Fact is Owen Daniels is not vested yet. He has two more years to go. I wouldn't do it and neither would you. It'd be one thing if he was a marginal talent as you imply. But he's not. There's not but a hand full of young TEs in the NFL that can do to a zone defense what he can do.

I didn't think so.

Other than the fact that you post is FILLED to the rim with extremely POOR math, I'm not sure what to tell ya'.

1. Owen Daniels is asking for a pay INcrease - not a decrease.
2. What the "market will bear" hasn't been determined (other than not ONE team was willing to part with the TWO picks necessary to get OD under the terms of his RFA tender - that part is a FACT).
3. His RFA tender is a substantial pay INcrease over last year -so your 50% pay CUT is being pulled out of this air.

feel free to carry on with nonsense mongering...

 

[NitroGSXR]

i was making a joke in reference to pencil neck's post. sorry. i was trying to be subtle.

i completely agree that as a source for information on the Houston Texans that TexansTalk is second to none. But you need to remember that not every post that contains information is accurate. If a post says " so in so was offered x millions and he's crazy to turn that down." It doesn't make that "x millions" that he was "offered" fact. But what tends to happen is that we get it in our head that so in so was offered x millions and he's undermining the team by turning that down. Your opinion of that player is likely altered by the supposed information you've received. But you have to keep in mind that you don't know the details of the contract. A contract of that nature can be extremely complex. You don't know if the "x millions" that he was offered is even accurate.

I think you can site TC as an ideal example of someone who posts on this board that try's to ALWAYS maintain fact based posts UNLESS she's specifically siting something as her opinion. And guess what, I read all of TC's posts. Because she maintains perspective at all times. If I remember correctly, she practices law. It's a very literal job where every single definition has to be defined so that there can be no assumptions or guesses. When someone is speculating, it has to be clarified as such. I think otherwise it's just a bunch of people screaming about how the earth is flat or round.

I know it's not so serious as all this. In the end we're just fans sharing our opinions but I just don't see the harm in well informed opinions whereas I do see the harm in ill-informed ones.

I was kind of hoping that my chair smashing comment would lead you to understand that I was kidding too in a real subtle way. I did mean what I said about me sending off a couple of PMs though. It reminded me that sometimes we all need to say thanks to worthy people.

I don't see harm in the ill informed ones because there are people on this board who are quick to correct them. Basically, I'm an ill informed poster myself. Some of my questions are dumb as poo but I feel a little better when someone else asks them. I get my answers from people like you, barrett. People who take the time to clarify matters. I've got mad love for TexansTalk. This doesn't only remain centered around the Texans either, barrett. I've stopped reading CNN unless it's been linked by someone here. Our informative sources are absolutely vast and comprehensive.

As for TexansChick... she's earned her way up above and beyond TexansTalk now. She no longer creates threads. She now links her threads to a newspaper. She HAS to be immaculate. Nobody comes close to TC when it comes to impartial posts. I think EVERY SINGLE ONE of us reads TC's posts. I wish everyone was like TC but we're not. That's why we're stuck merely creating posts and others have moved on to bigger things. I'm just glad and grateful that she still thinks we're worth her time to come here and link us to her blogs.

One other thing, barrett... it seems silly that you're trying to remind me that not all posts are accurate. I know that! I mean... I read ESPN, PFT, the Chronicle and any other news source. I understand FULLY about inaccuracy. I think that the percentage of accurate posting/writing is by far better on TexansTalk than any of those avenues combined! I'm lumping diehardchris, battleredblog, and a few others into TexansTalk. I HONESTLY shudder when I read comments to posts in AOL Fanhouse and Chron and ESPN. We don't really have that problem here too bad. In fact, i'd like for every member to pat themselves on their back.

LONG LIVE TEXANSTALK!!

Don't forget to donate this month.

 

[badboy]

Is subtility and potentiality the same thing? Use them in a sentence like "I have the potential to be subtle."

 

[GP]

You are nuts! Player Y is much better than Player X!

Player A just found out about this, and he's asked his agent to approach the GM about re-structuring his deal due to the rise of Player Y's stock.

Way to go, Dale. Now Player A will be a holdout.

I've also heard that Player B has been indicted on federal charges stemming from an altercation with Cop C at Strip Club Z this past Saturday night.

Alphabet madness.

 

[GP]

i was making a joke in reference to pencil neck's post. sorry. i was trying to be subtle.

i completely agree that as a source for information on the Houston Texans that TexansTalk is second to none. But you need to remember that not every post that contains information is accurate. If a post says " so in so was offered x millions and he's crazy to turn that down." It doesn't make that "x millions" that he was "offered" fact. But what tends to happen is that we get it in our head that so in so was offered x millions and he's undermining the team by turning that down. Your opinion of that player is likely altered by the supposed information you've received. But you have to keep in mind that you don't know the details of the contract. A contract of that nature can be extremely complex. You don't know if the "x millions" that he was offered is even accurate.

I think you can site TC as an ideal example of someone who posts on this board that try's to ALWAYS maintain fact based posts UNLESS she's specifically siting something as her opinion. And guess what, I read all of TC's posts. Because she maintains perspective at all times. If I remember correctly, she practices law. It's a very literal job where every single definition has to be defined so that there can be no assumptions or guesses. When someone is speculating, it has to be clarified as such. I think otherwise it's just a bunch of people screaming about how the earth is flat or round.

I know it's not so serious as all this. In the end we're just fans sharing our opinions but I just don't see the harm in well informed opinions whereas I do see the harm in ill-informed ones.

None of us, under the Rick Smith regime, are going to know anything about contracts talks. Unless a player leaks it, which I wouldn't put it past a player to do so. Players are more likely to play the media game because they are trying to obtain more cash, while conversely the front office is trying to retain more cash. The harder job is on the side of the player/agent because THEY have to pull out all the stops in order to get what they want. The front office can say "see ya later" and go out and get another player. Therefore, i believe that a lot of the details that appear are from the player's side.

Sad part is this: Fans want players to sign and get on with life. Play. And if you don't, then go on. Life goes on. Get your roll somewhere else. But stop with the fake platitudes and "I'm just a workin' guy trying to get the best deal I can" talk. It's shallow, insulting, and needless.

Refute this: Owen Daniels is a holdout, he's skipped a portion of activities that earned him a 10,000 fine...which does not repeat, so he can continue to skip out. He doesn't like the deal as it stands, yet he made sure he signed the one year deal in time so that he didn't run the risk of the Texans making a lower one-year offer (which is legal to do). Owen Daniels wants a significant pay increase. The Texans have to figure out how that affects everything, as well as whether or not they want to commit to the number that OD and his agents are talking about. Because if the Texans liked ODs number, the deal would be done. And if OD liked the Texans number, the deal would be done. But neither side likes the number(s).

Opinion time: I don't want a TE getting bank when we might need it for others whom I think are more of a can't-do-without type of player. We draft fairly smart, and I'd be comfortable letting OD get his roll elsewhere. If he stays, I'll be happy for that, as well. I would just hope that the final number would be reasonable as it pertains to being able to keep some higher-profiled players on our team (Slaton will want a nice deal, and others will, too, within the next few years).

Is good, no?