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Young Pro Day

Tha_Tinman said:
New Orleans picked up Brees and they are STILL rumored to have an interest in Lienart. Now if that be true ...certainly the Texans could still have an interest in Young ...even with David Carr.
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You must be smoking pot.
 
infantrycak said:
Frankly JMO but folks are throwing around way, way too many accusations in the VY discussions. There are far less haters than alleged--everyone who discusses VY being anything less than perfect or the best ever or the only choice is not a hater.
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I was really just calling out ChuckM. To make everything better for myself I re-discovered the "Ignor List". RIP Chuck.
 
Bamboo said:
they attended it.

why is it not important here????

VY kicked ***. hope we draft him.

when is usc pro day??
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Sorry Bamboo, they attended it to look good for the fans. Also, they may be looking at (IMO) Scott, Griffith, and Thomas in later rounds.

Everyone should watch the video of the pro day at UT on the Statesman website. Not too many chances to see what happens at a pro day event like that. Koodos for the online version of the Statesman paper posting the video, but to show their VY focus or just their naiveté, the paper's headline writer called it "Pro Timing Day".
 
I like that Kubiak commented on Vince's competitiveness. He's going to have a lot of flashbacks to this offseason when his team is facing Vince once every 3 or 4 years (or worst case - twice a year).

Watching the FO is pretty funny. They are walking a tightrope. If they express too much enthusiasm for Vince, they keep an almost-dead trade option alive, but then the fans won't understand why they didn't pick him on draft day.

When reading the espn.com article, I wondered if Chris Mortensen's "one scout" has a vested interest in Vince's stock dropping. The comments just sounded a little too hyper in their negativity.

I don't know if anyone watched PTI today, but Wilbon said that he doesn't buy that Vince's stock has dropped at all.
 
Tulip said:
I wondered if Chris Mortensen's "one scout" has a vested interest in Vince's stock dropping. The comments just sounded a little too hyper in their negativity.
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My...god, it has to be an Aggie
 
Carr Bomb said:
My...god, it has to be an Aggie
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That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.
 
Tulip said:
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.
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Is it possible the scout was being honest? I know, I know, I'm obviously a hater......
 
Tulip said:
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.
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i was just joking
 
chuckm said:
Is it possible the scout was being honest? I know, I know, I'm obviously a hater......
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Anything is possible.

It's possible that Vince Young is the next Ryan Leaf.

Or the next Peyton Manning.

Or somewhere in between.

If the draft were an exact science, it'd be a heck of a lot easier.
 
Nighthawk said:
Some people just don't "get it." Cutler was a nobody, a low draft choice, maybe 2nd round. He had EVERYTHING to prove at the combine and so he worked out and did well. Now he's a top 3 QB. He probably COULD NOT have hurt his stock at the combine because his stock was so low.

Vince Young is a different case entirely. He had a brilliant season capped by an out-of-this-world performance in the Rose Bowl, probably a little more difficult venue than the combine. He ran, he threw, he QB'd the offense, he did everything and if you were grading him on a scale of 100 points for that performance you could not possibly drop below 98-99.

Since then, Vince has not done so well. He made a mistake in representation which just shows that he's a little more unsophisticated than you would like, he's not already a professional player with a professional's view of the game. Then he gets the lousy Wonderlic score, and he's black, so everyone assumes he's not the brightest light on the tree. Then he doesn't work out at the combine and people start whispering he's hiding something.

Bottom line, the football people really already know pretty much what they need to know about Vince Young. If they want a personal workout (as the Titans apparently do) they get it.

I've said before I think the Texans are fools to pass on him, because he alone has the chance to be the mold-breaker in the NFL. But I agree, it's a terrific risk. Maybe he'll only turn out real good. Or worse, a bust (though that seems far-fetched even to his most avid haters).

The Texans real difficulty is they don't WANT a brilliant QB under Kubiak, they want a pretty good, careful, sufficient QB. Under Kubiak, the SYSTEM is the thing. Once you understand that you understand why trade down is the only route to take, why Sage Rosenfels makes sense, why Carr is kept, why the middlin' players who really are pretty good are picked up in free agency. Kubiak does not want stars, he wants a workaday team that executes the SYSTEM.

And THAT is why we're not drafting Vince Young.
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It's a terrific risk. OMG, you sound like those *****s on ESPN (err USC network). How do you clairify that statement? Where are the empirical evidence to support your position. Frankly, I don't see it. The last I checked, VY lead the nation in passing rating, and was the MVP in the last two Rose Bowl games. He lead the longhorns a national championship. And he's a tremendous leader as well a proving winner. Something that we don't have on the Texans. I don't hear y'all saying that ML is a "terrific risk". I just replayed the Rose Bowl game on my DVR, and VY preformance was better than ML and anybody else on the field. The only risk I see is that the Texans would pass of such as great talent and stay with the shockly terrible David Carr. Too bad our front office is egregiously flawed.
:yahoo:
 
To bad for Vince that the Rose Bowl wasn't April 28, 2006. That way his stock would only have a day to fall rather than three months.
 
Tulip said:
That's not a "vested interest". Not a real one, anyway.

I meant more like the scout was from a team picking mid-round or something like that. NFL teams try playing mind games with each other from the end of the season all the way through draft day.
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I really doubt the scout was trying to effect VY stock because frankly other NFL teams aren't going to trust what some annoymous scout for another team thinks about VY. They take what their scouting department gives them & use it to put their final grade on a particular player, in this case VY.

Some teams might be quite high on him, but that doesn't mean they'd give him a significantly lower grade based upon the evaluation by some other scout from a different team. While there are plenty of smoke & mirror tactics going on during draft time I don't think many teams actually take the bait hook, line, & sinker.
 
There is no way to know who is doing what till Paul Tagliabue announces "with the first pick in the draft" at 11:30...

The Jets were figured to take a QB with their pick @ #4, However with thesigning of chat and ramsey, Maybe they want Reggie and got this deal done to pony up their 2 1st rounders for Reggie Bush with the first overall pick...

Maybe we take Reggie, Maybe we take Vince, Maybe we trade down, but with all the players working out there was more to look at than just Vince.

The only thing that bugged me, is the Q&A session was more an explanation for certain things he did at the college level rather than giving him an NFL scenario like what would you do if the defense came at you this way.
 
Carr Bomb said:
My...god, it has to be an Aggie
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Don't be daft. Mortensen has been consistently and nastily anti-Young since last year. He was also reporting the surface was "fast" when everyone else was reporting it was slower than the combine surface by a good amt. And if you looked at the video, I can't imagine you thought that was a reasonable test of 40 yd dash for anybody--it's like running the 40 in a bathroom.
 
bkimble said:
It's a terrific risk. OMG, you sound like those *****s on ESPN (err USC network). How do you clairify that statement? Where are the empirical evidence to support your position. Frankly, I don't see it. The last I checked, VY lead the nation in passing rating, and was the MVP in the last two Rose Bowl games. He lead the longhorns a national championship. And he's a tremendous leader as well a proving winner. Something that we don't have on the Texans. I don't hear y'all saying that ML is a "terrific risk". I just replayed the Rose Bowl game on my DVR, and VY preformance was better than ML and anybody else on the field. The only risk I see is that the Texans would pass of such as great talent and stay with the shockly terrible David Carr. Too bad our front office is egregiously flawed.
:yahoo:
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Well, you missed my point. We should take Young, but we're not going to. We're building a system and it's not the kind of system you build around a probable mega-star like Young. You build it around a reasonably good QB like Carr or Rosenfels. And BTW, I'm not in favor of it, I'm just reporting what I think the Texans FO is doing.
 
The rumor building now is that Vince coasted in at the end of his 40-yard dash instead of accelerating all the way through it... :shocked

:stirpot:

Seriously you've got to love it. :)
 
It is funny how everyone is stuck on the 40 time for this QB. The people that constantly throw that out probably never watched him play or have an agenda in my opinion.
 
I'm listening to 610 right now, and they (UT homer Richard Justice is also
with them), are all defensive about Young's 40 time, saying he didn't get someone to help him prepare for this. Anybody seeing a pattern here , first VY flunks the Wonderlic, and everyone says that test score is irrelavant (except maybe not for a QB). Well the 40 time is not too meaningful for a QB, but its just one more thing a player prepares for and rehearses for during the whole process leading up to the Draft in NYC late in April. Really part of the job interview process. But one's self discipline and organizational skills are
called into question when everyone is constantly defending the results. And
those skills are definitely important for an NFL QB.
 
I myself don't think it's all that important. However, is it good business to initially say you're not running, then run and have it be slightly less than expected? I've read didn't warm up, slow track, pulled up at the end, shows competitive nature, .... who knows? I'm braced for impact ...
 
chuckm said:
I myself don't think it's all that important. However, is it good business to initially say you're not running, then run and have it be slightly less than expected? I've read didn't warm up, slow track, pulled up at the end, shows competitive nature, .... who knows? I'm braced for impact ...
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He also said he would throw at the combine as well
 
nunusguy said:
Anybody seeing a pattern here , first VY flunks the Wonderlic, and everyone says that test score is irrelavant (except maybe not for a QB). Well the 40 time is not too meaningful for a QB, but its just one more thing a player prepares for and rehearses for during the whole process leading up to the Draft in NYC late in April. Really part of the job interview process. But one's self discipline and organizational skills are
called into question when everyone is constantly defending the results. And
those skills are definitely important for an NFL QB.
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Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY flunked the wonderlic, does this mean he has to go to NFL Europe first? Did not realize there was a failing grade.

When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for. I have never recalled someone get so ripped apart as this kid whether it was in Basketball or Football. If he were a delinquent or was coming off an injury then I could see where the ultra criticism would be coming from.

If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
 
So at what point will the negatives start to outstrip the positives. If he just flunked the wunderlich it would be one thing.

He didn't make every throw, he ran slow and speed is supposed to be one of his weapons.

AJ Hawk ran faster than Vince. He is a hardcore project because he is going to have to learn to throw better.

He has dropped to the last half of the top 10 in my estimation.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
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I completely agree but if you had Young's ear, would you not use this to your advantage?

prepare for the Wonderlic...I agree it's not a be all end all for an NFL QB, but for Heaven's sake prepare for it and make it a NON-issue ...

this guy has awesome physical gifts, so use them ... prepare for the 40 ... blaze it .... make it a NON-issue ....

sometimes perception, unfortunately, IS reality ... and in the case of the NFL draft where the difference between going 1st and 7th means millions of dollars, go ahead and play hype game and beat them at it ....
 
jacquescas said:
So at what point will the negatives start to outstrip the positives. If he just flunked the wunderlich it would be one thing.

He didn't make every throw, he ran slow and speed is supposed to be one of his weapons.

AJ Hawk ran faster than Vince. He is a hardcore project because he is going to have to learn to throw better.

He has dropped to the last half of the top 10 in my estimation.
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At what point does football skills play into the equation?
 
Kaiser Toro said:
It is funny how everyone is stuck on the 40 time for this QB. The people that constantly throw that out probably never watched him play or have an agenda in my opinion.
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I think it is more just backlash to all the speculation (guarantees?) about Young "redefining the position of quarterback" that have been seen and heard for the past couple of months. If he's supposed to break the mold because he's bigger, stronger, faster - people want to see the proof and will harp on it if he doesn't meet the expectations that have been touted.

I think much of the VY pro and con analysis comes from the two sides of the argument being tired of, and irritated with, each other. There is plenty of blame on both sides for the over the top posts - as they say "you've made your bed, now sleep in it". (That was the global "you").
 
All of the media coverage is over the top and completely ridiculous. To hear the rabidly drooling talking heads that VY is the ONLY QB to EVER have a pro day. Oooooh - he threw passes, and he ran. Big deal. Good grief. Enough already. :brickwall
 
chuckm said:
I completely agree but if you had Young's ear, would you not use this to your advantage?

prepare for the Wonderlic...I agree it's not a be all end all for an NFL QB, but for Heaven's sake prepare for it and make it a NON-issue ...

this guy has awesome physical gifts, so use them ... prepare for the 40 ... blaze it .... make it a NON-issue ....

sometimes perception, unfortunately, IS reality ... and in the case of the NFL draft where the difference between going 1st and 7th means millions of dollars, go ahead and play hype game and beat them at it ....
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It became a non issue after he retook it, which is something that all of us do in our stages in life. I only got a 1050 on the SAT, I took it again and did better. Did my college ding me for it? No. At work we take competency tests and trainigns with assessments where you need to have a passing grade. If we fail them we are able to take them again to get credit. No big deal. Why is it that we talk about this more than the NFL personnel? Because most of us do not understand what really matters to the team. Could the test hurt him on his leverage for the signing bonus? I believe so, but not his draft position.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for.
If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
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Wonderlic scores and 40 times are very real and tangible to, and they are used for comparitive purposes. I gather they are important, or they wouldn't
be performed each year by the prospective draftees. VY is now competing with Leinert & Cutler, and if his competition gets the edge in a single category used to compare the 3, they are maybe in the top 5 and VYs isn't.
You have to remember, all of these things are used to measure the players
"up side" and "down side", and the latter may be more importatn to a team
making a 30-50 million $ investmetn than the former. Its business, and there's
nothing more important to these teams than minimizing the risk of their investment.
 
nunusguy said:
Wonderlic scores and 40 times are very real and tangible to, and they are used for comparitive purposes. I gather they are important, or they wouldn't
be performed each year by the prospective draftees. VY is now competing with Leinert & Cutler, and if his competition gets the edge in a single category used to compare the 3, they are maybe in the top 5 and VYs isn't.
You have to remember, all of these things are used to measure the players
"up side" and "down side", and the latter may be more importatn to a team
making a 30-50 million $ investmetn than the former. Its business, and there's
nothing more important to these teams than minimizing the risk of their investment.
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Agreed as my post above the one I quoted meets you half way on your position.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
It became a non issue after he retook it, which is something that all of us do in our stages in life. I only got a 1050 on the SAT, I took it again and did better. Did my college ding me for it? No. At work we take competency tests and trainigns with assessments where you need to have a passing grade. If we fail them we are able to take them again to get credit. No big deal.
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once again, Yes a million times Yes ....

But my point is, why HAVE to retake a pointless test to prove to people that you have walking around sense?

A 1 minute conversation something like ....

Management: Vince you'll be given a short test at the combine. It's given to all the players. It's fairly straightforward. We're going to spend a half hour a day for about a week preparing you for it.

Vince: OK


My take on this has absolutely nothing to do with his mental competency or with the Wonderlic's relevance to NFL success. It has everything to do with his management's on the job training ....
 
chuckm said:
My take on this has absolutely nothing to do with his mental competency or with the Wonderlic's relevance to NFL success. It has everything to do with his management's on the job training ....
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I agree that his management was a problem, and may still continue to be. Maybe that is the answer you are looking for, but I do not know what it has to do with the Texans situation or VY losing the shine of a top 10 pick.

I need a new dancing partner Chuck, us going aournd in cricles is beginning to hurt my head, my fingers and my demand. :)
 
Kaiser Toro said:
I agree that his management was a problem, and may still continue to be. Maybe that is the answer you are looking for, but I do not know what it has to do with the Texans situation or VY losing the shine of a top 10 pick.
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Not looking for an answer .... just making (or trying to make) a point


Kaiser Toro said:
I need a new dancing partner Chuck, us going aournd in cricles is beginning to hurt my head, my fingers and my demand. :)
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yea lately you're always on my toes anyway .... :)
 
Kaiser Toro said:
If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
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I agree generally with your post. One point I will differ on is taking issues off the table (actually I agree the 40 time should be taken off the table but that detracts from the general rule of leaving the discussion open). VY's ability to run a conventional NFL O is in question--it was before he ever took the Wonderlic and that incident didn't help. Before folks start pulling out the stones and looking for the H key consider this outside of the MB context--everyone on 610 am loves VY even if not all think he will be the pick. Every one of them also feels like drafting VY to adapt him to a team's system would be a mistake, that VY has to have a system built around him. However you phrase it--ability to run a NFL O or needing a special system to take full advantage of his talents--we are talking about a major committment to a non-interchangeable part. That is worth evaluating.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Yes I do see a pattern here. So VY flunked the wonderlic, does this mean he has to go to NFL Europe first? Did not realize there was a failing grade.

When VY separates from players during live games and passes for 300 yards those are the tangible results people are looking for. I have never recalled someone get so ripped apart as this kid whether it was in Basketball or Football. If he were a delinquent or was coming off an injury then I could see where the ultra criticism would be coming from.

If you want to talk about VY then talk about him in football parlance and ding him for what is waiting for him at the next level because there is plenty to discuss (which Jerek does a fine job doing) - zone read, throwing motion (be careful as we have a QB who was dinged on that), five step and seven step drops, being under center, etc. But to throw out 40 times and wonderlic results does a real disservice to one's credibility who is trying propagate the myth that VY is not football fast and does not have the mental capacity to QB at a high level.
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Thanks for the nod: it means something to me and I am glad that at least some people on this board who don't necessarily agree with me all of the time still possess basic reading comprehension skills (not that I ever questioned yours, KT, but you know what I mean.)

I don't have a problem with Vince's 40 time: IMO, it would be relevant if he were a track athlete or if he ran a 4.27 or a 4.95 -- scores that were significantly different than expected. Instead, he ran in upper 4.4s-mid 4.5s; exactly what we expected him to run. For that matter, his passing workout was cool and all, but it was a scripted event and likewise did nothing to alter VY's past play -- you know, what he's done in games on the field, which counts a lot more than his IQ test that I enjoy to make fun of but understand is pretty irrelevant -- or my opinion of him: namely, great talent, still question marks.

The man's on-field resume wasn't changed a bit at yesterday's pro day: still the same Rose Bowl performer, still the same exciting athlete with questionable management and big reason to believe he will succeed at the next level, given time and hard work. Sucks that some people miss the boat entirely and want to think I have a Vince Young voodoo doll at the crib, sit around at work thinking up stuff I want to say bad about the guy and all, but we are here to talk football and I will tell you what I think. As I say, the good posters are what keep me here, and I enjoy the talk ya'll. Or should I say, y'all?
 
Looks like ChuckM and KT are gettin all brokeback on us. Make a guy just dab a tear to see such harmony.
 
the fact Vince Young dominates this forum, the radio airwaves on 610 and shop talk around the water cooler means one thing- Vince Young is one of those rare athletes who transcends sport into icon status. forget football stats, wonderlick scores & Pro Days for a minute and look at Vince Young as a franchise and buisness entitiy onto itself.

Were people talking about MJ like this when he came out of North Carolina? I lived in Portland at the time & it seemed to me the hype, even though not as overpowering, was a draft factor with the Blazers & they did not want the circus to come to town & went with need, less contorversial prospect. The Texans, unlike the Blazers got lucky, because Reggie Bush is no slouch, he is a very dynamic young man with unlimited upsided out of the backfield, he just does not play the QB position :redtowel:

Vince Young is the player of a generation, he just so happens to come from Houston and played for the Texas Longhorns :homer:
 
Porky said:
I hate to say this, but I am actually beginning to hate Vince Young, the thought of him in Steel blue is beginning to turn my stomach. I was a huge VY booster in Jan, but his fans are just a total turnoff to me. I am also a big Texas fan. Root for them every game. But, If these are the kind of fans we are going to add to the bandwagon, let Possum Holler or some other locale far, far away have them. Seriousely.

I am relishing the thought of laughing my *** off as team after team passes on VY, and the burnt orange faces get redder and redder until they explode. :yahoo:
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If an ugly fan (or fans) change your opinion of a football player than you never had a clue to begin with. Fans have no bearing on what a guy can do on the field, and once you start incorporating them into your opinion you lose me as someone who respects your football opinion. I lost a lot of respect for a lot of you fans this year...on both sides of this debate.
 
Vinny said:
If an ugly fan (or fans) change your opinion of a football player than you never had a clue to begin with. Fans have no bearing on what a guy can do on the field, and once you start incorporating them into your opinion you lose me as someone who respects your football opinion. I lost a lot of respect for a lot of you fans this year...on both sides of this debate.
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:eek:
 
jerek said:
I don't have a problem with Vince's 40 time: IMO, it would be relevant if he were a track athlete or if he ran a 4.27 or a 4.95 -- scores that were significantly different than expected. Instead, he ran in upper 4.4s-mid 4.5s; exactly what we expected him to run.
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Exactly....... nobody said Vince had Break away speed, or could score from anywhere on any rush. We said he can run. If they wanted to test that ability, they should have played tag with him.
jerek said:
For that matter, his passing workout was cool and all, but it was a scripted event and likewise did nothing to alter VY's past play -- you know, what he's done in games on the field, which counts a lot more than his IQ test that I enjoy to make fun of but understand is pretty irrelevant -- or my opinion of him: namely, great talent, still question marks.
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I thought his throwing went over well...... after reading some posts in this thread(not particularly this one), I'm wondering if I'm getting the right news....... I heard he made every throw, and missed one out of 50 targets or something. I heard that he showed he was comfortable under center, 3, 5, & 7 step drops.... probably should have shown the 1 step drop............ for the heck of it.

But I agree with Jerek, you've got 4 years of tape on the guy....... College, and Highschool..... The guys who'll be making the decisions can/will talk to him. They'll talk to every one that knows him, coached him, roomed with him, took his test for him....... everything. They already know more about Vince Young, than they learned at his Pro-Day... They'll learn more about him in the days to come....... that Pro-Day, is more about exposure for UT.
jerek said:
The man's on-field resume wasn't changed a bit at yesterday's pro day: still the same Rose Bowl performer, still the same exciting athlete with questionable management and big reason to believe he will succeed at the next level, given time and hard work. Sucks that some people miss the boat entirely and want to think I have a Vince Young voodoo doll at the crib, sit around at work thinking up stuff I want to say bad about the guy and all, but we are here to talk football and I will tell you what I think. As I say, the good posters are what keep me here, and I enjoy the talk ya'll. Or should I say, y'all?
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I think the only time you & I have crossed, is when discussing David Carr. David has just as many issues, and as far as proving what they can do in the NFL, I think David is only slightly ahead. I'd like to see him take a 5 step drop. .. correctly execute a 3 step drop. Read a defense, and work a progression. I agree it's not his fault, but I don't think that should hurt Vince's chance of coming to Houston.


dang chuckm, I did it again didn't I.
 
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