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you think he wants to throw all those dump off's

you may be right not saying your not. but it does have to be considered that the only time in his career he put up good numbers was when his o-line was starting to play well. and since it basically cost's the same next year to keep him or let him go why risk letting him go and finding out later that he can play with good protection. just get a quality back up in here and let carr and whoever battle it out. nothing to lose(except a couple mil in 2008), lots to gain.

why do you think the OL was playing better at the beginning of the year than they were at the end of the year?? I think someone pulled the numbers earlier, and he got sacked 21 times over the first 8 games, and 21 times over the last 8 games.

Plus we haven't had any 4 week stretch with the same 5 guys starting at all 5 positions. Not the first 4 weeks, not the second 4 weeks, not the third 4 weeks, and not the last 4 weeks. At the beggining of the season we never started the same 5 guys in back to back games.

& we've already got a quality back up who would've beat Carr out for the starting job this year.

I, like you, think Carr is worthless. I don't see us getting a second day pick for Carr, unless we sweaten the pot with someone like Porter, or Faggins.

I don't think there is much risk involved in letting him go either... there isn't a team in the league that will pick Carr up as their starting QB. Veteran backup maybe.... allow him to compete for the job...... maybe.... but chances are that we won't have to worry about Carr beating us for a long while to come......... unless we start him that is.

Let's put another QB back there, as our unquestioned starter. Let's put Kubiak's guy back there and see what happens.... if the line starts to look decent..... put David back there, and let's see what he's got.

Then, let's move on from there.
 
the first couple of games we had spencer in their. and for a few weeks after that we still had all our starters minus spencer(although our center position probably improved once that starter was replaced). once a few weeks after spencer went down kubes could tell that he couldnt protect carr and thats when they started to change the offense(imo) and went to the short passing game. kubes took away most chances for carr to go downfield by coaching him to get rid of the ball. thats could be what happened anyway.

what you are sugesting(letting carr compete for a job and not be the starter) is fine by me. i just think we have to much invested in him to give him away unless the coaches are 100% sure he cant play. if thats the case let him go. if not might as well not let him just walk away. i doubt we get much in a trade for him either.
 
the first couple of games we had spencer in their. and for a few weeks after that we still had all our starters minus spencer(although our center position probably improved once that starter was replaced). once a few weeks after spencer went down kubes could tell that he couldnt protect carr and thats when they started to change the offense(imo) and went to the short passing game. kubes took away most chances for carr to go downfield by coaching him to get rid of the ball. thats could be what happened anyway.

what you are sugesting(letting carr compete for a job and not be the starter) is fine by me. i just think we have to much invested in him to give him away unless the coaches are 100% sure he cant play. if thats the case let him go. if not might as well not let him just walk away. i doubt we get much in a trade for him either.

Spencer played one game. RonDayne ran over his leg in the first possession of the Indy game(his second). Flanagan also got hurt(on the next possession I think) and didn't start the next two games. When Flanagan came back two weeks latter, McKinney got hurt. then three weeks later Wiegart went down.

David was doing well, until he got benched. He was going through his progressions, he was challenging the defenses, he was playing football.... He was still fumbling the ball way too much. Tennessee was our 7th game of the season. week 8. David had fumbled in all but three games at that point, for a total of 10 fumbles.


I think it was after that Tennessee benching, that we realized we couldn't protect David. Tennessee's pass rush isn't all that, and they were all over David.

he came back and played well against the NYG, but he started the one read and dump...... or one read and run thing. And really started to stare down his receivers.

Buffalo, Jets, Oak, Tenn, NE was a string of games where David was completing less than 10 yards/completion. games that were mostly three step drops..... dump offs..... lateral, and not vertical.

outside of those games, we ran just as many play action passes(which work out to about a 5 step drop), 5 step drops, and 7 step drops... well we mixed them up enough.....

I don't think we ever implemented a short passing game. a 3 step drop works out to be about 2.0 seconds. in 2 seconds, guys like AJ, Moulds, Walter can run 15 yards. Owen, Bruenner, & Putz can make it out to about 10 yards, and your backs can get about 5 yards pass the LOS.

David just has this thing were the guy has to be wide ass open before he throws the ball to whatever reciever(except on slants..... he's got that down pretty good). Defenses were just keeping everything underneath..... allowing the shorter throws....... when you only have to defend between 5 & 15 yards from the LOS, you fill the field up pretty good.... there isn't a lot of space to pick up YAC... you'd think if David was completing 70% of his passes then we'd pick up first downs... but for some reason it didn't work that way.

I've watched the game again, & I think the Indy game at reliant was David's best game of the year. nothing spectacular, but most everything was thrown 10 yards down field..... he looked good on the bootlegs.... and he didn't turn the ball over.

If he were a rookie, and I were Kubiak, I'd bring him back next year as the starter...... no questions asked.

which is why I think he will be brought back next year, and we are getting our selves worked up about David leaving the team for no good reason. Kubiak has treated him like a rookie all year long, and I believe he will continue to treat him as if this was his rookie year.

I do believe David has done everything Kubiak told him to do.. he's responded to everything Kubiak has said to him. I don't think this means that Kubiak told him to throw the ball 5 yards when we need 17. There's at least one receiver out there beyond the first down marker, and David has to do something to get the ball to him. If that means he has to leave the pocket, step up into the pocket, pumpfake to the flat...... whatever... David needs to take the initiative to get it done. I think that is what disappoints me..... and most likely Kubiak. more than anything. His lack of initiative..

anyway........ I'm rambling.
 
you may be right not saying your not. but it does have to be considered that the only time in his career he put up good numbers was when his o-line was starting to play well. and since it basically cost's the same next year to keep him or let him go why risk letting him go and finding out later that he can play with good protection. just get a quality back up in here and let carr and whoever battle it out. nothing to lose(except a couple mil in 2008), lots to gain.

Carr's best year was 2004 and he was sacked 49 times, which is more than he was sacked this year....several play off teams have QBs that were sacked more than Carr this year also...Carr was sacked about 1 more time per game than all the play off teams as an average...
 
Carr's best year was 2004 and he was sacked 49 times, which is more than he was sacked this year....several play off teams have QBs that were sacked more than Carr this year also...Carr was sacked about 1 more time per game than all the play off teams as an average...

and are these teams changing their offense and using 1 and 3 step drops to keep protect their qb's. if you dont see our line has a problem then your not watching.
 
Spencer played one game. RonDayne ran over his leg in the first possession of the Indy game(his second). Flanagan also got hurt(on the next possession I think) and didn't start the next two games. When Flanagan came back two weeks latter, McKinney got hurt. then three weeks later Wiegart went down.

David was doing well, until he got benched. He was going through his progressions, he was challenging the defenses, he was playing football.... He was still fumbling the ball way too much. Tennessee was our 7th game of the season. week 8. David had fumbled in all but three games at that point, for a total of 10 fumbles.


I think it was after that Tennessee benching, that we realized we couldn't protect David. Tennessee's pass rush isn't all that, and they were all over David.

he came back and played well against the NYG, but he started the one read and dump...... or one read and run thing. And really started to stare down his receivers.

Buffalo, Jets, Oak, Tenn, NE was a string of games where David was completing less than 10 yards/completion. games that were mostly three step drops..... dump offs..... lateral, and not vertical.

outside of those games, we ran just as many play action passes(which work out to about a 5 step drop), 5 step drops, and 7 step drops... well we mixed them up enough.....

I don't think we ever implemented a short passing game. a 3 step drop works out to be about 2.0 seconds. in 2 seconds, guys like AJ, Moulds, Walter can run 15 yards. Owen, Bruenner, & Putz can make it out to about 10 yards, and your backs can get about 5 yards pass the LOS.

David just has this thing were the guy has to be wide ass open before he throws the ball to whatever reciever(except on slants..... he's got that down pretty good). Defenses were just keeping everything underneath..... allowing the shorter throws....... when you only have to defend between 5 & 15 yards from the LOS, you fill the field up pretty good.... there isn't a lot of space to pick up YAC... you'd think if David was completing 70% of his passes then we'd pick up first downs... but for some reason it didn't work that way.

I've watched the game again, & I think the Indy game at reliant was David's best game of the year. nothing spectacular, but most everything was thrown 10 yards down field..... he looked good on the bootlegs.... and he didn't turn the ball over.

If he were a rookie, and I were Kubiak, I'd bring him back next year as the starter...... no questions asked.

which is why I think he will be brought back next year, and we are getting our selves worked up about David leaving the team for no good reason. Kubiak has treated him like a rookie all year long, and I believe he will continue to treat him as if this was his rookie year.

I do believe David has done everything Kubiak told him to do.. he's responded to everything Kubiak has said to him. I don't think this means that Kubiak told him to throw the ball 5 yards when we need 17. There's at least one receiver out there beyond the first down marker, and David has to do something to get the ball to him. If that means he has to leave the pocket, step up into the pocket, pumpfake to the flat...... whatever... David needs to take the initiative to get it done. I think that is what disappoints me..... and most likely Kubiak. more than anything. His lack of initiative..

anyway........ I'm rambling.


i didnt realize flanagan went down so quick. still doesnt change the fact that i dont think they changed their philosiphy till later. when weigert went down is when things really started getting bad. as i said we were probaly better without flanagan.

im not convinced carr is the guy. i just dont think we should dump him for nothing. it seems dumb to me to get rid of the guy after 5 years then finally fix the o-line.
 
counting only the rushing yards of our running backs,

Philly.......... 45 yards.
Indy........... 98 yards.
Washington...58 yards.
Miami........... 67 yards.
Dallas.......... 19 yards.
Jacksonville........130 yards.
Tennessee.........132 yards.
NYG........ 57 yards.
Jacksonville........101 yards.
buffalo...............130 yards
NYJ..........15 yards.
Oakland.............128 yards.
Tennessee.........101 yards.
New England......105 yards.
Indy.................177 yards.
Clevland............102 yards.

We ran for more than 130 yards 5 times since week 7(10 weeks).
We ran for over 100 yards in 10 of 16 weeks(I'm counting the 98 yards).

It's not exactly 85% of the season, but we've been running pretty well for more than just 5 weeks. well enough, I think, if our passing game was more than just empty stats.

Lets see how that compared to the rushing defense of each team

Philadelphia...136.4 (Below average)
Indianapolis...173.0 (Below average)
Washington...137.3 (Below average)
Miami...101.1 (Below average)
Dallas...103.7 (Below average)
Jacksonville...91.3 (Above average)
Tennessee...144.6 (Below average)
NY Giants...114.4 (Below average)
Jacksonville...91.3 (Above average)
Buffalo...140.9 (Below average)
NY Jets...130.3 (Below average)
Oakland...134.0 (Below average)
Tennessee...144.6 (Below average)
New England...94.2 (Above average)
Indianapolis...173.0 (Above average)
Cleveland...142.1 (Below average)

You have to look at both sides of the coin, i.e. what defense we ran against. And the evidence shows that there were only 4 games where we ran for more yards than what that defense was averaging giving up to the rest of the league. I realize that other factors like play calling, but when you look at yards per carry...

Our Average in Bold

Philly...4.5 3.8 (Below average)
Indianapolis...5.3 4.7 (Below average)
Washington...4.5 3.4 (Below average)
Miami...3.5 2.0 (Below average)
Dallas...3.9 2.0 (Below average)
Jacksonville...3.5 3.9 (Above average)
Tennessee...4.6 5.7 (Above average)
NY Giants...4.0 3.1 (Below average)
Jacksonville...3.5 3.5 (Average)
Buffalo...4.7 7.0 (Above average)
NY Jets...4.6 1.8 (Below average)
Oakland...4.0 4.0 (Average)
Tennessee...4.6 3.6 (Below average)
New England...3.9 4.8 (Above average)
Indianapolis...5.3 4.5 (Below average)
Cleveland...4.4 3.6 (Below average)

A little better, but we still had 11 games where our YPC was below average, 2 games where we were average, and 4 games where we were above average.
 
The running game won us like 1 or 2 games this year. That's not cause Ron Dayne is a good back, the few games he did good the line was actually producing. Dayne wasn't good enough to compete with Broncos RB's that why he was let go. The only reason he did good in Denver is cause of their system, and ofcourse if our oline starts opening holes hes gonna run through them. If we had Dom or Bush it would of been a whole lot diff running game this year.

I do think David Carr could succeed if he had time to throw, and I do believe he gets ancy back there from being pressured so much and when he does have time to throw he messes up. If you put David Carr on the Colts, they would still be good, now, not AS good, cause ofcourse Manning is awesome. If you watch those games where the Colt's lost in the playoffs, he got pressured and had a bad game. Carr can succeed, but I think it's time to let him do it elsewhere. Wev'e already ruined him here. Keep in mind we have like 2 people on the offensive line that have been with us when David got sacked a million times, we had a rookie, a washed up veteran pro bowler..... it's time to build the offensive line.
 
why do you think the OL was playing better at the beginning of the year than they were at the end of the year?? I think someone pulled the numbers earlier, and he got sacked 21 times over the first 8 games, and 21 times over the last 8 games.

I don't know the numbers but I'd be willing to bet they attempted more passes in those first 8 games than they did in the last 8 games.

Did anybody here Moulds on his show radio show last night? Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Carr. Two things he said Carr needed to work on and one was being a more of a leader by being more vocal and when there isn't a lot of time to throw he needs to check to the backs and tight ends more often. That kinda surprised me a little bit about dumping off more because he did complete 68% of his passes and most people are constantly complaining about him dumping the ball off.
 
I don't know the numbers but I'd be willing to bet they attempted more passes in those first 8 games than they did in the last 8 games.

Did anybody here Moulds on his show radio show last night? Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Carr. Two things he said Carr needed to work on and one was being a more of a leader by being more vocal and when there isn't a lot of time to throw he needs to check to the backs and tight ends more often. That kinda surprised me a little bit about dumping off more because he did complete 68% of his passes and most people are constantly complaining about him dumping the ball off.

Thats because he dumps it off alot of the time when there is not much pressure (or much less than normal). When he gets pressured is when he needs to dump it off...not on a play where he has enough time to find a receiver downfield.

Pretty sure that is what he means.
 
Thats because he dumps it off alot of the time when there is not much pressure (or much less than normal). When he gets pressured is when he needs to dump it off...not on a play where he has enough time to find a receiver downfield.

Pretty sure that is what he means.

Hopefully thats what he meant because I figured he had plenty of practice at it and didn't need much more!
 
You have to look at both sides of the coin, i.e. what defense we ran against. And the evidence shows that there were only 4 games where we ran for more yards than what that defense was averaging giving up to the rest of the league. I realize that other factors like play calling, but when you look at yards per carry...

A little better, but we still had 11 games where our YPC was below average, 2 games where we were average, and 4 games where we were above average.

I understand those stats... I understand how our stats compare to the defenses we played. I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

If your argument is that the RB situation is far from locked up... I agree, and that is a very good argument. I understand a Clinton Portis..... DW... or AD would have improved our running game quite a bit. I also understand that once our offensive line starts producing better we'd get the same net effect. I don't believe anyone is arguing that point though.

If your argument is that our game wasn't enough to open up the passing game, or wasn't enough to help David Carr....... I have to disagree. Against Oakland & Indy our running game got David Carr two wins as a starting NFL QB.

Was our game enough to change the opposing teams game plan?? I doubt it. The QB is still the focus of our offense. & if he is easily rattled, we're going to need a 2000 yard/year rushing game for him to be successful.

But if we had a 2000 yard/year rushing game.... who cares who the QB is?? He could be Michael Vick, and we'd win as many games on his arm as we would David Carr's.
 
Hopefully thats what he meant because I figured he had plenty of practice at it and didn't need much more!

What game was that when Cook caught the ball, then turned around & got hit by a LB as soon as he turned around(then fumbled the ball)??

If you can look at that play again, you can see Owen Daniels clear that LB(facing the QB) with no one on top of him. If David would have thrown the ball to Owen instead of Cook(over Owen's head) that LB would have been way behind, and most likely would never have caught up. It would have been a big gain, it would have been the first down & then some, instead of the game ending fumble short of the first down anyway.

Then against NewEngland, David's second INT. That corner watched David Stare down our TE. He let our WR(I think it was Moulds) go so he could jump the TE route. If David was watching the defense, instead of our players(because he has no reason to watch our players.... after a week of practice, he should know what our players are going to do) he should have seen the Corner sitting on that route, he should have known Eric was wide open...... he should have made the play, and beat that corner, instead of getting beat.

Coaches help slow QBs by stacking routes like that. the QB should be able to read two routes at the same time. David can't even do that. Those are just two examples off the top of my head.....

the problem with David dumping down so often is that he is staring at one reciever then dumping down.... it was silly the number of times we had wide open recievers in that game against INdy that David didn't even see.
 
you are wrong carr homer:carr sux

thanks to whoever gave me neg rep with that comment for stating my opinion. mucho class!!
 
you are wrong carr homer:carr sux

thanks to whoever gave me neg rep with that comment for stating my opinion. mucho class!!

Same thing happened to me just a day or two ago. First time I've gotten a negative rep.

I was actually almost kinda psyched about that. :aikido:
 
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