Goatcheese
Texan
James Harrison was drafted late in the... wait... James Harrison wasn't drafted at all. Strip that man of his awards immediately and give them to a first rounder!
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Why are people so upset with Cushing and Barwin?
- Thread starter TheRealJoker
- Start date
James Harrison was drafted late in the... wait... James Harrison wasn't drafted at all. Strip that man of his awards immediately and give them to a first rounder!
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
James Harrison was drafted late in the... wait... James Harrison wasn't drafted at all. Strip that man of his awards immediately and give them to a first rounder!
The greatest LB ( arguably ) was picked 2nd in the draft . Usually being real good is a collision of talent , size , and drive . You don't get the first two late in the draft . The other component can make up some for the lack of the first two .
Blake
MMQB
Actually the Washington Redskins and Atlanta Falcons didn't pass on him due to the fact that they didnt have a first round selection. But I get your point.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Y'all are welcome to believe Diles > Cushing if you want... but I won't have a part of it. Cushing was pretty much the concensus #2 LB in the draft, behind Curry. Can he bust? Absolutely, so can any draft pick.
Those guys you listed are the exception, not the rule. Cushing isn't > Diles because he was selected higher. It's because he's an overall better LB.
Those guys you listed are the exception, not the rule. Cushing isn't > Diles because he was selected higher. It's because he's an overall better LB.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Demeco and Cushing (in different drafts) were selected within 18 slots of each other.
Diles and Cushing (in different drafts) were selected within 203 slots of each other.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Not to mention Diles broke his leg .
P
Polo
Guest
Cushing is the better athlete and he's more aggressive. He's bigger and faster.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Good points. Maybe I'm wrong but I think Cushing is better than a healthy Diles... then throw in his injury and that takes it further.
I'm actually a really big fan of Diles so I don't want to sound like I'm being that negative about him. I like David Anderson a lot too but it's not like he's the best WR.
Another thing to think about though, unfortunately, is that Cushing has had is run ins with injuries... luckily no broken legs. The good news is he really hasn't missed all that much playing time during his last 3 years at USC. So he's got a history of injuries, but really hasn't missed much time because of them. If Diles can get healthy, I think he's an awesome backup MLB and SLB! If Cushing tweaks and ankle here or there, I think Diles can come in and we'd truck right along. That's why having quality depth is so important. Hopefully Caldwell/Brisiel are similar on the OL!
I'm actually a really big fan of Diles so I don't want to sound like I'm being that negative about him. I like David Anderson a lot too but it's not like he's the best WR.
Another thing to think about though, unfortunately, is that Cushing has had is run ins with injuries... luckily no broken legs. The good news is he really hasn't missed all that much playing time during his last 3 years at USC. So he's got a history of injuries, but really hasn't missed much time because of them. If Diles can get healthy, I think he's an awesome backup MLB and SLB! If Cushing tweaks and ankle here or there, I think Diles can come in and we'd truck right along. That's why having quality depth is so important. Hopefully Caldwell/Brisiel are similar on the OL!
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Cushing is on the team now, and was pretty much the BPA for what we need and what the new coordinator feels he needs to make his system successful. Cushing is a gritty player that will hopefully set a tone for our defense and his attitude will reflect on the rest of the players.
He's here now, so I'm not going to consider all of the what ifs any more. What's done is done, and we're going to live with Cushing now. I would have much rather had Melauega and all, but obviously the coaching staff didn't think they could make it work with him and Demeco, so that is that.
Time to embrace the Cush.
He's here now, so I'm not going to consider all of the what ifs any more. What's done is done, and we're going to live with Cushing now. I would have much rather had Melauega and all, but obviously the coaching staff didn't think they could make it work with him and Demeco, so that is that.
Time to embrace the Cush.
I agree, and everyone knows how down on him I was. He's a Texan, so I'm his biggest fan.
Diles is excellent depth, a spot starter, but if he's your starter for 16 games you have a slight weakness on your D. This makes him a MLB back-up, which he is better suited for.
Diles is a steady guy with very little play making ability. He'll make tackles 3-5 yards down field, with very little for a loss. Not a bad guy to have as a back-up, but a guy you should upgrade given a chance. I think you lump these two together a little to much. Cushing>Diles. And I was Cush's biggest detractor.
HOU-TEX
Ah, Football!
I was one that always thought Diles didn't have the football speed that we needed at LB. IMO, he's similar to D-Ryans quickness-wise and is a liability in coverage.
Cushing is beginning to grow on me a bit, but let's not forget what Diles can offer. I commend Diles on his heart and hope he continues to work as hard as he has in the past.
Cushing is beginning to grow on me a bit, but let's not forget what Diles can offer. I commend Diles on his heart and hope he continues to work as hard as he has in the past.
I was one that always thought Diles didn't have the football speed that we needed at LB. IMO, he's similar to D-Ryans quickness-wise and is a liability in coverage.
Cushing is beginning to grow on me a bit, but let's not forget what Diles can offer. I commend Diles on his heart and hope he continues to work as hard as he has in the past.
I like him as a player, just as a back up/special team player.
Cjeremy635
Overtraining
I don't like him because I can't stop thinking of that stupid "Cush Lash" song in the Jerry Maguire movie. (you know the one that Jerry O'Connell sings)
TimeKiller
Guest
I don't see how you can call him a slight weakness. He was an upgrade, a big part of the D for 8 games and by almost everyone's account a quality player to have. I'll agree that Cushing is the better player right now* but who really knows the limits of either if what's limiting them is playing time. You're dead on about him being more of a MLB though.
*Diles' injury sure helps Cushing's case
I'm not upset with either pick. Honestly, I was hoping that we would trade down in the 1st round for extra picks, and pick up Clay Matthews. I really didn't know much about Barwin, but after reading up on him now, it's looks like a very good selection. I just hope the injury bug doesn't follow Cushing. I really hope he brings a nasty streak to the D.
Diles is an upgrade over guys like Greenwood, Clark, ect... I just feel he is a place holder.
badboy
Hall of Fame
My mind goes in weird areas sometimes. I want to see Cushing clobber a Qb, TE, RB heck the water boy I don't care and then the whole crowd in Reliant lets out a long CUUSSHHHH! Like Jose Cruuuuzzz used to get in Astro Dome.
WHen he stops an RB at goal line, the head line next day could read "More Cushing for the pushing."
WHen he stops an RB at goal line, the head line next day could read "More Cushing for the pushing."
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
James Harrison was drafted late in the... wait... James Harrison wasn't drafted at all. Strip that man of his awards immediately and give them to a first rounder!
I see that you missed my point by a wide margin. Carry on I suppose.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I see that you missed my point by a wide margin. Carry on I suppose.
If I remember right , you were saying the Texans needed Brian Cushing about a year and a half ago .
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
I do not remember that, but I don't really understand the comment.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I was giving you credit .
TimeKiller
Guest
Fair enough and to be honest, Adibi still has to command his spot with play or he's got a few guys on his tail. June, Bentley, Diles....
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
i'm okay with the cushing pick but the barwin pick....All i'll say for now is that i'm not in love with it. I mean, i see what Smithiak see in him (versatility, speed) i'm just not sure i see a starting-caliber football player in the NFL.
The reason is b/c i'm not sure i think he can grow into the role they have long term for him which is a starting DE opposite Mario or a starting WLB. & if he, as a player we drafted in the 2nd round, can't become that...i think you can & should be labeled a bust.
The reason is b/c i'm not sure i think he can grow into the role they have long term for him which is a starting DE opposite Mario or a starting WLB. & if he, as a player we drafted in the 2nd round, can't become that...i think you can & should be labeled a bust.
P
Polo
Guest
I don't know if the Texans ever expected Barwin to be a starting anything...
If he can contribute on special teams and become a down to down threat in the pass rushing game then I say it was worth it. Other than Mario we don't have a whole lot of folks we can count on to put pressure on opposing QBs..
If he can contribute on special teams and become a down to down threat in the pass rushing game then I say it was worth it. Other than Mario we don't have a whole lot of folks we can count on to put pressure on opposing QBs..
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Has tons of potential at DE and is very raw. He has only played it 1 year and he said that because he will only be focused on football now he will be able to put on weight and keep it. He said he will probably get up to 260-265 which, for a guy with his athletic ability, is amazing. I see him being a great asset as a pass rusher and think that he will eventually replace Smith opposite Mario.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
well see that's why i have a problem with it then. Your top 2 picks should be starters or at the very least the 2nd rounder needs to be able to push the guy ahead of him for the starting role; especially when you picked up a OLb in the 1st capable of putting his hand in the dirt. Drafting a guy that high for situational purposes doesn't sit well with me unless you're the team who held the trophy up at the end of the year...
Plus shuttling specialist guys on/off the field tips your hand to the offense in the 1st place.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
The Texans had one feared pass rusher last year . If Barwin turns into Fred Dean , then he's worth the pick .
P
Polo
Guest
Well, I can't make you think Barwin was a good pick so we'll just have to wait and see. Personally I don't care if they draft a water boy in the second round as long as they think that he will be a serious contributor to a winning season.
Ok...
So if Barwin comes into the game on 2nd and 5, what does that mean?
What exactly can the offense get out of the D-line personnel we put on the field in relation to what we'll be doing on the next play?
Defenses adjust to offensive personnel/subs...Doesn't really happen the other way around too often...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
he was just about 260 at the combine so if he plans to put on more weight i wonder how that's going to affect his burst & speed. I just think that the "he's the next Mike Vrabel.." hype. & for all the comparisons to him, Vrabel really hasn't done much outside of 1 season when he was a beast so...
2008
Harvey (Jax) 9 starts
Balmer (Niners) 0
Merling (Miami) 2
Campbell (Cards) 0
Groves (Jax) 0
2007
Adams (Buccs) 9
Moss (Broncos) 1 start in 2 yrs
McBride (Chiefs) 1 start as rookie
Crowder (Broncos) 1 start in 2 yrs
Abiamiri (Eagles) 1 start in 2 yrs
Alama-Francis (Lions) 0 start as rookie, 2 in 2nd yr
Bazuin (Bears) Was never activated in 2 yrs
I agree. If Adibi can't stay on the field, any of those guys could easily take his spot.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/556598
"Body Structure: Barwin has good upper body muscle development and room on his frame to carry more bulk, if a team decides to keep him on the defensive line. With his quickness, range and change of direction agility, he is more than capable of playing as a strong-side linebacker. He has good arm and chest muscle thickness, soft hands for the reception (as a tight end) and adequate thigh and calf thickness. As his frame continues to develop, he knows how to use his strength efficiently to compensate playing against the larger blockers."
I'll give him a couple off-season workout programs.
In the third year, I can see him as a full-time DE.
Maybe earlier???
"Body Structure: Barwin has good upper body muscle development and room on his frame to carry more bulk, if a team decides to keep him on the defensive line. With his quickness, range and change of direction agility, he is more than capable of playing as a strong-side linebacker. He has good arm and chest muscle thickness, soft hands for the reception (as a tight end) and adequate thigh and calf thickness. As his frame continues to develop, he knows how to use his strength efficiently to compensate playing against the larger blockers."
I'll give him a couple off-season workout programs.
In the third year, I can see him as a full-time DE.
Maybe earlier???
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
what do you think audibles are? what do you think offenses are trying to achieve when they flex out their bulky yet equally athletic TE's against the often smaller, slower nickel backs? It's never-ending for offenses....but to illustrate my point....
If u know a guy is a pass rush specialist & is likely going to enter the game in 3rd & long situations to do what he's best at, As an offensive coordinator i'll use that against the defense either by running straight at him since his own team doesn't think he's a capable enough run stopper to play the 2 previous downs, or by letting him get up the field & run right where he leaves or throwing a screen etc...NE is the best at things like that.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
You win when they run on 3rd and long .
Then it's the job of the DC to counter, or stay ahead of the curve.
Says like having Barwin drop back and do a zone blitz.
The Bearcats did that!
Or run him on a stunt to the inside.
The DT can hold the line and check the run.
Etc...
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
what's your point, i could reel off 2nd rounders who came in & started day 1 including our own Demeco Ryans. Just b/c 2nd rounders don't typically start right away doesn't mean they can't or teams don't expect them too.
WolverineFan
Hall of Fame
Just because a guy is a pass rush specialist does not mean he cannot defend the run. Mario is a pass rushing specialist, but he is also a beast in the run game. You bring in a guy in that situation to do what he does best. That does not mean that he is going to run 10 yds downfield and completely abandon any attempt to stop a run play.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
most of those things are thrown in as wrinkles; what i described earlier are part of offenses these days but you & i are both right; the adjusting is never ending for both sides of the ball.
most times however, the coach is going to put player X in a position to succeed. A player might be athletically able to do something, but you're putting yourself & the team at a disadvantage if you don't allow him to do what he does best.. hence these very boards when we saw our best pass rusher dropping back in coverage. Most people were thinking "Smith, WTF are u doing!"
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
&...mario plays all 3 downs. a guy being brought in specifically to rush the passer is gonna pin his ears back & do just that. Otherwise, why the hell else does the coach even let him on the field?
I'm not saying that he's gonna go up the field willy nilly with no responsibility or anything, but apparently if his own coaches don't think he's capable of playing the 1st 2 downs that usually lean towards the run, he more than likely is not as good against the run as the person who does play it; & with that the offense's chances of converting against him on the run go up, if only minimally.
P
Polo
Guest
If we see that they have a Bulky TE in the game and we have a nickel back on him then that was our mistake....The defensive coaches jobs are to look at the personnel on the field for the offense and then match our guys up so that we can properly defend...Sometimes the smaller type nickel backs are on the TE's because the TE's are good pass recievers and LB's have a hard time defending them when they run routes...That said, I don't see what that has to do with a DE that excels at rushing the passer...
Where did anyone say that Barwin would be used only in pass rushing situations...You mentioned the specialist stuff and I was just commenting..
Anyhow, if it's 3rd and long and you decide to run the ball because I put one DE in the game that is good at rushing the passer then you probably wouldn't have a job very long....I don't even see how that makes sense...
A lot of times you know or have a pretty good feel for when a pass is coming. 3rd and long would be one of those times.
If we could but Barwin in and make teams run on third and long, I'd see that as a major win.
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P
Polo
Guest
Pass rush specialist is not a new thing.
We used to bump Weaver down and bring in a speedier DE off the edge. Shante Orr, Peek, Charlie Anderson? When we went after Colvin last year I didn't see any complaints about tipping away our gameplan when he came in at DE...
I seriously doubt Barwin would be playing only in passing situations anyways...He's gonna be a spell guy that they will always want in the game in obvious passing situations..
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Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
Was anybody listening to 1560 or 610 last night about 6-6:30ish? They were talking about this exact thing- how you want your first 2 picks to be starters, etc etc. The response was geared mainly to a question raised about Barwin only being a situational pass rusher and if that meets value as a mid 2nd rounder or not.
What was said was interesting. He (I forget who) asked something along the lines of "Of last years' rookies, all of the 250 some odd drafted... in the whole draft, started 14 or more games last season?"
The answer? eighteen players. eigtheen in the entire draft started 14 or more games. I think eleven of them were 1st rounders.
I think this is why the term "starter" can be so misleading. For Example, Jonathan Stewart started ZERO games last year but that doesn't mean he didn't live up to his draft position. I think when it comes to draft position (1st/2nd round) its better to focus on the player impact on the game. How many SNAPS will he play vs. how many starts does he get.
A cornerback may not get many starts per se if he's a nickelback but what if the defense is in that 60% of the time (playing the colts)? The nickelback position would be very valuable although that player may not get the 'start'. Same goes for Slaton's compliment or in this case Connor Barwin.
What was said was interesting. He (I forget who) asked something along the lines of "Of last years' rookies, all of the 250 some odd drafted... in the whole draft, started 14 or more games last season?"
The answer? eighteen players. eigtheen in the entire draft started 14 or more games. I think eleven of them were 1st rounders.
I think this is why the term "starter" can be so misleading. For Example, Jonathan Stewart started ZERO games last year but that doesn't mean he didn't live up to his draft position. I think when it comes to draft position (1st/2nd round) its better to focus on the player impact on the game. How many SNAPS will he play vs. how many starts does he get.
A cornerback may not get many starts per se if he's a nickelback but what if the defense is in that 60% of the time (playing the colts)? The nickelback position would be very valuable although that player may not get the 'start'. Same goes for Slaton's compliment or in this case Connor Barwin.
I agree with Ole Miss..... if the guy can help us generate a pass rush, picks up more than 5 sacks..... then I'll be satisfied. If he gets double digits, I'd be ecstatic, regardless if we call him a "starter" or not.
I mean it's not like he's Dwight Freeney, a #1 pick, who is taken off the field on 3rd and short.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not to crazy about the pick right now. He's a project, and was only projected to go higher in the draft, as a 3-4 OLB. Not as a DE. But DE is getting to be a sexy pick, like QB, and I guess slotting him to relieve Mario in his first year, isn't really a bad idea. Give him an opportunity to make an impact, but at the same time, give him time to develop.
One of the mocks had us taking Robert Ayers with our first pick, and I was "OK" with that..... getting Barwin in the second should sit better with me, I don't know why it doesn't.
Maybe it's because he's white.
I mean it's not like he's Dwight Freeney, a #1 pick, who is taken off the field on 3rd and short.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not to crazy about the pick right now. He's a project, and was only projected to go higher in the draft, as a 3-4 OLB. Not as a DE. But DE is getting to be a sexy pick, like QB, and I guess slotting him to relieve Mario in his first year, isn't really a bad idea. Give him an opportunity to make an impact, but at the same time, give him time to develop.
One of the mocks had us taking Robert Ayers with our first pick, and I was "OK" with that..... getting Barwin in the second should sit better with me, I don't know why it doesn't.
Maybe it's because he's white.
Mr teX
Hall of Fame
At this point i can't tell if you arguing for the sake of arguing or just can't connect the dots. We'll just have to agree to disagree, on whatever it was that we were disagreeing about.
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Those were the DEs that were drafted in the first and second round the last two years. None of the second rounders started on day one.
Merling had the most starts among the rookies (2 for the whole year) and he was drafted at #32.
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
Oh. I see. I guess I shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Thank you.
YoungTexanFan
All Pro
I think the Cushing pick makes the Barwin pick. I think with a top level SOLB, we can have a DE like Barwin. If we stack Cushing over Barwin, then we are going to be just fine. That is what Cushing does for this team. He upgrades his position and makes the other positions around him better.
Ole Miss Texan
Hall of Fame
I really like the combination of these two picks- I think it was brilliant. I think the defense needs more top level SOB's.
