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Who else would have been unhappy if they won today?

Gunbuny said:
Actually, the higher the draft pick, the higher the risk and the bigger the cap hit oh, abd the bigger the signing bonus. I will make this simple for all of you who think that the first pick is worth laying down and tanking the rest of the season. I will only go back a few years to like 1997 to illustrate my point. Detroit is so happy with their investment in Joey Harrington, as are the AZ Cards with their really big investment in Wendall Bryant in the same year. Both were drafted in top 10 in the first round, the players hit the lottery, the teams just got to pay a lot of money. here is a list of all the top 10 draft picks who were supposed to be such "sure things" but basically committed larceny everytime they cashed or are still cashing their really big paychecks.

Joey Harrington-Detroit is ready to string him up.
Wendall Bryant-He still gets no playing time
Gerard Warren-He is doing so well-FOR ANOTHER TEAM!!
David Terrell-The Bears fans would probably speed up if he were in the middle of the road.
Koren Robinson-Repeat after me: "My name is Koren and I am an addict"
Santana Moss-He got traded to Washington
Courtney Brown-He is very happy in Denver. Only thing is Cleveland drafted him
La VAr Arrington-He can't get playing time for a HOF Coach
Peter Warrick-Buffalo and Atlanta are probably still bitter about this guy.
Plaxico Burress-He isn't even the best receiver on the team he left Pittsburgh for.
Tim Couch-Are you seeing a trend in Cleveland??
Akili Smith-He couldn't even make it in Europe.
Ricky Williams-He was good when you didn't drug-test him.
David Boston-If Congress would only pass their performance-enhancing law, the NFl would be rid of this guy forever.
Claiborne
Ryan Leaf-NUFF SAID!!!
Andre Wadsworth-Are you seeing a trend with the Cards??
Curtis Enis-If Bush blows out his ACL, he can be like this guy.
Kyle Turley-I heard he thinks he's a rock-star now. Well, with that big signing bonus he got, he lives like one.
Duane Starks-He can't get playing time on DB-starved NE roster

My point is having a top10 draft pick only guarantees you will be shook down by some snake-oil salesman like Drew Rosenhaus for millions of dollars and they are non-refundable!!! We have a good and productive running back in DD. Bush never has more than roughly 20 carries a game and USC has one of the best O-lines in the nation. Unlike other teams with really bad offensive lines, DD still gets 1000 rushing yards a season. Does anyone know if Bush can even take the punishment of 30 carries a game or equal DD's production if we continue to use the bargain basement to put together our offensive line? Do you know why the teams that always win keep winning?? They draft what they need, not the flashiest player on the board. This team needs to spend that 1st rd pick on a offensive linemen because good teams don't let good offensive linemen hit the free-agent market except the nitwits in Green Bay and look at their record. :brickwall :brickwall :brickwall
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19 players out of 90, top ten players drafted in the first round since 1997, thats not very good evidence that top 10 drafted players are a bust, whats the reasoning?
 
well its true.. yall are trying to say that the #1 pick is bad to have because players there are busts and get paid more.. thats just stupid.

why dont we put together a database and figure out at which point a good player was most often drafted.. then trade down to that spot..cause that way we have the best chance of getting a good player..right?


WRONG. Yall are acting like there is some mystical magical property associated with some draft picks.. as though getting a player at one point guarantees a good player..and at another they suck.

having the #1 pick means you get YOUR PLAYER.. the best player available that you want. If your scouts and GM suck (a problem most #1 overall teams have).. then your pick will suck.. if your scouts and GM dont suck (hopefully the case after we clean house).. then having the #1 overall means you get a great player.
 
No one is saying the number 1 pick is bad other than that it means you are a terrible team and likely to be that way for a while. We are trying to make the point that the people who are in the minority of wanting the number 1 pick have not really thought it out very well. The number 1 pick is not an award it is a consolation prize.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Coach does not need help replying to your knowledge base.
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My point is that any player taken in the draft is a risk, you have a better chance of drafting a better player out of college with a higher pick. Not every player will be a bust or a Hall of Famer. If Mr. Bush comes out this year, the value of the first pick will probably be worth far more than a #1 pick ever has. Dont you want that opportunity to draft or trade for that kind of value? The only way to do that is to lose, period.
 
uhcoug do you honestly believe that Reggie Bush is a better prospect than Eli or Peyton Manning. Why do you even post man? No seriously I want an intelligent answer to that.
 
Coach C. said:
No one is saying the number 1 pick is bad other than that it means you are a terrible team and likely to be that way for a while. We are trying to make the point that the people who are in the minority of wanting the number 1 pick have not really thought it out very well. The number 1 pick is not an award it is a consolation prize.
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If you havent figured out we are a terrible team, you need help. Just relax, let us lose, and gives us are darn consolation prize. I want us to have a prize.
 
uhcougar08 said:
My point is that any player taken in the draft is a risk, you have a better chance of drafting a better player out of college with a higher pick. Not every player will be a bust or a Hall of Famer. If Mr. Bush comes out this year, the value of the first pick will probably be worth far more than a #1 pick ever has. Dont you want that opportunity to draft or trade for that kind of value? The only way to do that is to lose, period.
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Since you want to be a loser at least root for your team to win and allow them to back into the first pick by others winning more games.
 
Prize makes it sound like we were in position to win something, which we never were.

I think "federal aid" sounds better.
 
Coach C. said:
uhcoug do you honestly believe that Reggie Bush is a better prospect than Eli or Peyton Manning. Why do you even post man? No seriously I want an intelligent answer to that.
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What do you have against the kid, hes never in trouble, he is smart, he will grad in 3 years, and he is a superstar track guy. Not only that, he is the most exciting player to watch in college today. If you dont see it, then I cant help you. I will stop this, because this isnt solving anything. I have my opinion and you have yours, so we can leave it at that.
 
Coach C. said:
anyway way time to answer your questions eventhough you could not answer my one question.

I have seen game film and televised games of R. Bush and he is a great college player and prospect. He is not better than Barry Sanders, LT, OJ, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, G.P., or even the undersized Emmit Smith.

If you have any other questions I am here all night.
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Im not saying he is better than the greatest running back in history. In my opinion it was Barry. All im saying, is from what i see and what i hear and what i read, he will be a very hot commodity to have. So by us losing, it gives us the chance to use the value of the #1 pick for what ever the texans want to do with it.
 
I personally don't care if the Texans take Bush or not.. with our OL we would ruin him.

I say lets beef up the line and make a run at Adrian Peterson in a couple of years :drool:
 
Wolf don't assume that the Texans run block as bad as they pass protect. That would be a mistake. That's like saying Domanick Davis got 155 yards today all on his own. Think about that for a moment. You know that Davis is nowhere near talented enough to break out for 155 yards in a game without some blocking.

The line that gets Domanick Davis 1,100 or so yards per season will get Reggie Bush somewhere in the fourteen to fifteen hundred range and that is enough of a running game to keep defenses honest.
 
Hervoyel said:
Wolf don't assume that the Texans run block as bad as they pass protect. That would be a mistake. That's like saying Domanick Davis got 155 yards today all on his own. Think about that for a moment. You know that Davis is nowhere near talented enough to break out for 155 yards in a game without some blocking.

The line that gets Domanick Davis 1,100 or so yards per season will get Reggie Bush somewhere in the fourteen to fifteen hundred range and that is enough of a running game to keep defenses honest.
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very,very true
 
I need this thread to please steer clear of personal attacks and stay at least somewhat on topic please.
 
It is simple. The value of the #1 pick this year with two heisman trophy winners possibly entering the draft is GIANT!!! Winning does nothing but pour salt on a wound that is healing. If you win and get like the number 4 pick, you could lose the player you want badly or even the value of a huge trade this year. I wouldnt doubt that trading the number 1 pick this year will have a return value of a 1st and 2nd round pick and a 1st round pick later. By getting picks with that value out of a trade, you can place a fat band-aid over the wound and begin to become a winning organization.
 
Does anybody remember the OL that the Oilers built through the draft. We have the chance to do that with a trade of the#1 pick. A OL like that will last 10yrs. and provide protection for the life span of 2 OB's and several RB's.
 
See I tend to agree with that uhcougar08. On the one hand yes, I'd personally like to see them draft Bush. That's what I want to do with the pick but then it's not my decision so I'm not going to come unglued if they don't do it. If they trade the pick then that's fine too. The point is even if they don't use the pick on Bush he's going to be the guy who generates the really juicy trade.

Leinhart could possibly entice a team to trade up to get him but it seems to me like this years draft is going to be the Reggie Bush show. He's the one that everyone is saying insane things about. He's the guy that some GM is going to fall in love with. Yeah sure, we're fans and we fall in love with players too easily. Don't forget though that GM's around the league do it too. If the Texans pass on Bush then maybe years down the road you and I will be writing endless "They should have taken Reggie Bush.....And Derrick Johnson" posts on the board but I sure hope we're not. I hope that if we make that trade down then we get some value from it.
 
Ok, my point about having a top10 pick in the first round is that your failures are much more costly and put you even deeper into what some would call "Salary Cap Pergatory" when you finally decide to cut your losses, look at the teams that consistly draft very high. They are losing teams for several years. Personally, I am not so sure that we are going to get a new GM. I am sure we will be getting a new Head Coach. I don't think we are going to see a change in the scouting staff. I think Casserly has rode the coattails of Bobby Beathard, and Joe Gibbs. I think he comes off as prepared and a good judge of talent, but the 1st 4 yrs of this franchise's drafting, free-agent signings, trades, and who has been released has proven that is not the case. I have a feeling that Casserly is going to fear for his job, run Capers outta town, and try to get season-ticket-holders to renew and more butts in the seats by drafting Reggie Bush. Bush will get here, he will be expected to carry the rock 30 times a game like every other NFL RB. Bush will blow out his ACL and there go all our hopes of winning because we pinned them on a RB we did not need. I am not saying that 1st rd picks are all bad, i was trying to show how the "can't miss", flashy, "he will sell tickets", draft picks usually fail miserably when you should have drafted the best player that fits your need. Pittsburgh, Indy, and NE are probably the best teams at finding talent (in positions they need) and then drafting them to fit those needs. I like Travis Johnson, but we did not need Travis Johnson, we needed Alex Barron or Jammal Brown or an offensive lineman who could keep Carr from running for his life on every pass play. Enough with the cool picks, we need to draft according to our short-falls. I just think if we draft Bush, we will be getting the next Ryan Leaf, not because of his attitude, but because he is not a good fit for this team. We have no line and since Bush is listed as being 6ft tall, he won't be as good at hiding behind our big, but porous line to find holes. DD is listed as 5'9". I think that is partly why DD is successful in our offense. I understand and respect everyone's passion about this team. I understand you want and feel that this is what we need to become respectable and put together some wins to finally make the play-offs. I just do not agree.
 
:texflag: The cash cow is Lienert ... QBs bring the best trades . Eli and Peyton were great prospects but it is'nt a stretch to say Bush is a better college player .

Back to Matty , he needs to have a good game against Texas to put premium value on himself . I want Texas to win but Matty needs to light it up . Even if San Fran takes Bush with the 1st the Matt pick is the lottery ticket .
 
I think that trading that #1 pick for good value is what we need to become respectable and have a playoff run (at some point anyway).
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
:texflag: Even if San Fran takes Bush with the 1st the Matt pick is the lottery ticket .
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Not if everyone watches him run for his life on our team. :cool:

I guess you meant the pick itself.
 
:texflag: :tv: I think we came up with 40% is a good percentage of your draft actually panning out . I guess though its better to have your first rounders hit over your sixth round .
 
Honoring Earl 34 said:
:texflag: I don't want Matty ... then we get Nick Lachey minus Jessica . The pick might be worth more if he's on the board .
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FYI Lechey doesn't have Jessica anymore anyways.
 
gg no re said:
What's the point of keeping defenses honest if they can just sack the QB with a 4 man rush....
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Do I really have to answer that? If you can run the ball consistently then that keeps you from getting into as many obvious passing downs and it keeps the defense from just pinning their ears back and knowing that the QB is going to be there when they get past their man.

A real, consistent running game will do wonders for the pass protection. That used to be common knowledge.
 
Hervoyel said:
I need this thread to please steer clear of personal attacks and stay at least somewhat on topic please.
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I find it ridiculous that people would be "pissed that we won a game", but I will leave it at that and not say anything more about said people.
 
Personally I hope we can get a trade with the Cards done so they can get Leinert They need some one to replace Warner in a year or so and get more picks and a high enough 1st rd pick to grab "Brick" Ferguson out of Virginia as the cornerstone of our offensive line for the next 10yrs. I like everything about this guy. He plays well in a crowd, or in open space, he is athletic, not just a great big dude who weighs 300+ lbs. He is more of a Denver Broncos -type lineman who is athletic and a good blocker technique-wise. Even his nickname works anybody who answers to "Brick" can be on my roster!
 
Hervoyel said:
Do I really have to answer that? If you can run the ball consistently then that keeps you from getting into as many obvious passing downs and it keeps the defense from just pinning their ears back and knowing that the QB is going to be there when they get past their man.

A real, consistent running game will do wonders for the pass protection. That used to be common knowledge.
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That assumes if decent pass protection exists.

I assumed that a running game kept defenses from blitzing on the wrong plays, set up the play action, and gave favorable matchups.
 
Gunbuny said:
Personally I hope we can get a trade with the Cards done so they can get Leinert They need some one to replace Warner in a year or so and get more picks and a high enough 1st rd pick to grab "Brick" Ferguson out of Virginia as the cornerstone of our offensive line for the next 10yrs. I like everything about this guy. He plays well in a crowd, or in open space, he is athletic, not just a great big dude who weighs 300+ lbs. He is more of a Denver Broncos -type lineman who is athletic and a good blocker technique-wise. Even his nickname works anybody who answers to "Brick" can be on my roster!
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He doesn't weigh more than 300 pounds and never has. He definitely needs to gain 20 pounds or more and his mobility may decrease a little with that. I personally like Winston better as he is already bigger and stronger, likewise very athletic (probably not quite as quick as Ferguson) and can play more positions along the line than Ferguson can in case we need to move people around. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cards drafted Ferguson since they definitely need OLine help and have been looking to get a LT so they can move Leonard Davis back to LG.
 
I guess it is the age old question .. which came first ..the trailer park or the tornado..

Casserly brings in the players ..Capers is to bring them to their full potential. I have a feeling that we are a lot more talented then what we see on the field. I think Capers did a heck of a job the first year keeping us in games but now our talent on the club has exceeded the talent of the coaching staff

My problem with our drafting is that we used a #1 pick overall on a gunslinging QB and a #3 in the first round on a WR that can make plays.. building around those 2 we have failed (i.e. have an OL to protect the QB and #2 WR/TE) To me Capers is a 3 yards and a cloud of dust type of coach but we didn't draft to his offensive philosophy. I am not regretting us getting AJ and Carr ... we have had a coaching staff that doesn't know how to get the best out of the players we have. (defensive side too) .. maybe it is a trust issue of what Carr can or cannot do with Capers.Defensively... we had a veteran crew (except for this year) and 4 years waiting I am still looking for a unit that rivals Capers Steeler days .. Now I think the mentality of the team is that we are going to lose anyway and so we have concentration lapse and we lack confidence.
 
It's going to be really interesting to see how, when, and with who this team starts to really get better.
 
gg no re said:
That assumes if decent pass protection exists.

I assumed that a running game kept defenses from blitzing on the wrong plays, set up the play action, and gave favorable matchups.
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Obviously it's better if you can protect your QB (decent pass protection exists). Even if you are not good at it though a running game that can keep you more often than not in 3rd and short and out of obvious passing downs will keep you from being the main course at the sack buffet.
 
gg no re said:
That assumes if decent pass protection exists.

I assumed that a running game kept defenses from blitzing on the wrong plays, set up the play action, and gave favorable matchups.
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Where was the play action today? Especially with Davis running so well.
 
Hervo: I'll agree with that point.

It's going to be really interesting to see how, when, and with who this team starts to really get better.
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I think if we want to take shortcuts... look at what Carolina did post-Capers, then condense that into one offseason.

Kaiser: Yeah, WHERE WAS OUR PLAYACTION PLAYS?
 
Kaiser Toro said:
Where was the play action today? Especially with Davis running so well.
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They couldn't run it because they wouldn't have had time to get the ball off after a run fake for 90% of the game. Besides, running play action would be a logical call to get teams off balance since we look to run so much.
 
Always. I am incapable of rooting for a loss.

I TiVOd the game because I had to do other stuff today. I didn't TiVO enough extra and missed everything after the 2 minute mark, and just had to read the recap online. Ayyyyyyyy! I am kinda happy I don't have this week's heartbreak in my memory.

Those players just have to be just ate up. That can't be good for them at all. You play enough sports, you will get some heartbreakers in the mix, but these guys have experienced too many of them.

And peeps around here seem a bit more on edge too. Ten or so simultaneous Bush, Oline, Carr, coaching threads can jump on your last nerve.

Bleh.
 
uhcougar08 said:
What good comes out of a win when you are 1-10, now 1-11?
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Most of our players will be back next year. Even when your record is bad, it feels really good to win games. All things considered, the coaches have done a remarkable job of keeping the lid on this team and playing hard, but losing week after week is just hard for a team to stay together.

Marcus Coleman may be an example of that--being deactivated for the game. The more you lose, and the more you lose in any number of horrible ways, it just has to be bad for the learning process for your young players and bad for whatever reminants of a team you have for next year. The game is both mental and physical and mentally this team has to be just killed.

Football is not just math of 1-15 = 1. The repeated losses run the risk of just ruining players.

And for all the folks that think that a #1 pick and a new coaching staff is going to solve all this losing teams problems, I think actually that is a long shot. There have been some amazing turn arounds in this league, but more often than not, rebuilding takes time. Learning a new system, developing more players, getting people to come to Houston despite being tagged as losers. (And just to preempt some folks here, I am not arguing that the staff shouldn't change, but I am just preaching patience and realism.)

So, given how long it is going to be before we are likely going to see the playoff word flung about, some wins would be a nice thing to see.
 
Texans_Chick said:
And for all the folks that think that a #1 pick and a new coaching staff is going to solve all this losing teams problems, I think actually that is a long shot. There have been some amazing turn arounds in this league, but more often than not, rebuilding takes time. Learning a new system, developing more players, getting people to come to Houston despite being tagged as losers.
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There are some around here that think we'll be like the San Diego Chargers . . . go from 1-15 to the playoffs next year. They are going to be sooo disappointed. There shouldn't be any more "expectations" for the next 2 or 3 years at least.
 
Marcus said:
There are some around here that think we'll be like the San Diego Chargers . . . go from 1-15 to the playoffs next year. They are going to be sooo disappointed. There shouldn't be any more "expectations" for the next 2 or 3 years at least.
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I wouldn't say that last year we were 7-9. we have players on this team they just need direction and a new coaching staff will bring in a new breath of fresh air. People knock Carr but if you look at his last years stats he was making the step its just been a down year. He isn't the only one every player has had a down year, AJ, Dunta, Coleman, heck I can go all the way accross the board. Capers has lost his players. With the right coaching staff I don't think its going to take 3 years
 
Texans_Chick said:
Marcus Coleman may be an example of that--being deactivated for the game.
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Coleman cost us the game against the rams, he spouted off at the mouth and missed some meetings. That is all on him. He has lost a step, that is why he is frustrated.
 
As I have stated in other posts, I really cant tell the difference between the Bush administration and the McNair administration. I was rooting for the loss because if they would have won... the media propoganda would try to inflate Capers credentials, in return giving Mcnair ANY reason to hire Capers next season. Casserley AND Capers are losers, in the very least if the people (fans) can force a vote and remove the head coach and get a legitimate coach it will force Casserley and Mcnairs hand. Question is, who is coming in as Head Coach. Is the city of Houston going to get a legitimate Head Coach or are we going to get stuck with another Scott McClellan PR job... Thats the ultimate question.
 
Heres a good one, the people who want Reggie Bush dont mind losing, the ones who dont want him, want us to win. I want us to lose every game from here on out.:texflag:
 
uhcougar08 said:
Heres a good one, the people who want Reggie Bush dont mind losing, the ones who dont want him, want us to win.
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That's not true in every case. Some of us want to get the Reggie Bush pick to trade it.
 
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