R
real
Guest
Vince will be on ESPN classic, and his college career acheivments, and accomplishments will be talkied about for years by fans, media, and even VY bashers.....David...Well....He won't...
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Which QB had a better college career?
- Thread starter the wonger need food
- Start date
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Kaiser Toro said:
KT, where do you get this from? I expect this from people who can't spell or use basic punctuation. Not from you.
Vince played with a vastly superior defense and supporting cast. Are you telling me that Carr couldn't or wouldn't have won with that same team, in that same year? We'll never know, but he'd have been hard pressed not to.
Would Joe Montana have been one of the greatest if he had played for some no-name expansion team? I wonder if Joe's glory benefitted from the litany of Pro-Bowlers he played with, including the greatest receiver of all time?
Realistically comparing Carr's career to Young's is difficult as they played for two completely different teams. Making the blanket assertion that one is necessarily better than the other simply for winning the championship is just silly. I lost track of how many times UT's defense bailed out the team and got Vince the ball with good field position.
D-Nile runs right through your backyard buddy.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
jerek said:
If National Championships do not fit how about wins/losses, conference records/champisonships and bowl records? Surely we can measure them somehow? If not then this thread is dead.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Kaiser Toro said:
Just depends on the methods of measurement. If I am not mistaken DC had superior offensive production, certainly passing production. VY won more games and of course the championship. DC nevertheless won a truckload of awards. VY played for a much better team.
It depends on the weight you apply to the different criteria. And hey, if your criteria say VY is better, then sure, so be it, cause it's all only opinion any way. Your initial statement just seemed pretty narrow IMO.
Just curious: Was David Carr ever in contention for a Heisman Trophy?
I ask because it's a decent indicator of what people thought about a player at the time he was a college stud. We know Vince Young was in the top three, and a case could have easily been made that he should have won it.
Of course the Heisman is not the be all/end all, but when coupled with wins/losses, national championships, bowl games, clutch situations, etc., it is another piece of the puzzle.
I ask because it's a decent indicator of what people thought about a player at the time he was a college stud. We know Vince Young was in the top three, and a case could have easily been made that he should have won it.
Of course the Heisman is not the be all/end all, but when coupled with wins/losses, national championships, bowl games, clutch situations, etc., it is another piece of the puzzle.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
Vince had a great team but Carr played Rice , SMU , Nevada , Lou Tech and I think Tulsa . So if your team plays bad teams is'nt that the same as having a good team ?
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
Honoring Earl 34 said:
Measures of comparative strength of schedule vs. wins losses is not the same as having a "good" team.
I contend that Carr would more than likely have won the National Championship had he played QB for Vince's team this last year (a much better passer and still plenty capable of scrambling for big pickups). Likewise, I contend that Vince wouldn't have so much as sniffed a championship game had he played for Carr's 02 Fresno State. If any of you honestly want to tell me that Vince Young would have won the championship in Carr's senior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.
We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
If any of you honestly want to tell me that David Carr would have won the championship in Young's Junior year circumstances, I'd say that is cause enough to discount your credibility from here on out.
We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.
We can rebalance the statistical measures and give our own arguments for where and how weight should be applied, but it's nothing more than a theoretical exercise that is best summed up in my above statement IMO.
MorKnolle
All Pro
I have to say that Vince had the better career but I still say David was/is the better QB, both on the college and pro level. I agree with Jerek 100% that if Carr was the QB for UT last year they still would have won the championship, quite possibly would have won it more easily, and they would have run an offense more resembling a pro offense. If Vince was on the 2001 Fresno team then I doubt they win 6 games that year, but as has been mentioned numerous this argument is comletely a matter of opinion and I doubt anyone is going to sway anyone else's opinion one way or another.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
Not after my dad borrows DB's kitty in the window--it is a team game after all.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
jerek said:
No. Just measure Mr. Carr against his cohorts in college. VY was playing in a diffferent ball game. Now that they are both in the NFL we will be able to measure them more accuratley, but only the excuses may change.
MorKnolle said:
man..... I was sooooo there........ I mean the first half, I completely agree with. David and UT would have won the National championship, and I doubt Reggie would have won the Heisman.
But Vince....... 6 games??
David would not have thrown for 4000 yards, had he played 2 years in the Big 12...... and Vince would have lit up the stats even more on the ground, and in the air.....
Vince won the N.C.......... Carr was the first overall selection......... I think it's a wash.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
MorKnolle said:
DC would never have come to UT so the point is moot. I would even suspect that he would have received a letter from UT and that would have been written by a graduate assistant.
FSU would have taken VY in a second. VY's resume is littered with success, DC's is littered with numbers. One has been a champion, the other is still treading water.
TwinSisters
Veteran
Kaiser Toro said:
Don't worry I got that one covered already. Vincent has Jeff Fisher. Who's obviously a better coach, because he didn't want Vincent in the first place and benched Fresno State star Billy Volek that was keeping Carr from getting Fresno State ranked, winning a few Bowls, and a National Championship. Their owner and offensive line and WR's are all better too. Their well respected owner tells the GM to pick all the right players... except Young. A powerhouse team behind a ox of a line with a super genius offensive coordinator, naturally Young does better.
While Houston... well that's all different.
Terrible coaches.
GM that picks all the wrong people, but doesn't listen and listens to the coaches at the same time ( which is another problem within itself ).
Poor injury riddled offensive line.
WR's with hands of stone.
TE's made of glass.
One-pump chump RBs that get caught from behind.
And a Masonic cultist owner that spends all of his time in sin at the horse tracks. Work for the Devil, pay for the devilment.
No wonder Carr needs another season to get his belt adjusted just right to be better then Young.
Nay... PROOF that Carr is better then Young in the NFL, College, High School, and Kindergarten.
Fresno State Forever. Beat Hawaii.
Titan "Tack" Fan
Veteran
Vince, without a doubt. You can't argue with #2 in the Heisman voting and a National Championship. What he did for that team was amazing. David Carr's college career is universally forgettable, while Vince Young's college career will be remembered.
TwinSisters
Veteran
MorKnolle said:
I disagree.
They would have never made it to the National Championship, or even got as far as Michigan. Dave would've done exactly what Greg Davis and Mack Brown said to do and they would have ended up just like they did with Simms. Not too shabby, but not on the crown.
Vincent made Texas change and adapt to his game to win. And win they did, with Young standing upright in the endzone untouched.
Hulk75
Veteran
No I doubt they would have taken him in a heart beat, Jeff Tedford liked Strong Armed drop back passers that stayed in the pockett, tough kids that bench 400lbs and can run low 4.6's, down to earth guys.Kaiser Toro said:
Just look at this for me.................
Stats, proven, in ink stats..........
Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.
Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.
Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.
Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.
Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.
Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.
Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.
Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.
Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall
Carr went to a small school were he grew up.
Vince went to a Big School were he grew up.
Hill,Carr took a small school and made them as a team you hate to schedule.
Brown,Vince took a Big school and won, like they were supposed to.
Anything in there that was not true.
After looking through that I have came to the concusion that Carr did more with less.
Sorry Carr could not win a National Championship, too bad that small schools will NEVER have that chance. So dont add in the National Championship he could never win and Carr just by looking is the better QB.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Hulk75 said:
Can't argue with that since we are talking about two different prospects, QB's, universities and systems.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
jerek said:
Nope never said that. He just was not a highly sought after prospect in HS and he had to earn his way into a system where he profited off it for his two years as a starter. Very commendable.
VY has only known pressure and has delivered with the highest expectations. Numbers only tell one piece of the story.
Hulk75
Veteran
True I just think Carr accomplished more with less.Kaiser Toro said:
I would like for people to recongnize what David Carr did, he was not just some QB here and gone now in the NCAA, he did some wonderful things for college football and the Valley down here in California. He put Fresno on the map.
Huge
All Pro
Total career passing stats:
Vince Young - 444/718 (61.8%), 6,040 yards, 44 TDs, 28 INTs
David Carr - 587/934 (62.6%), 7,849 yards, 70 TDs, 23 INTs
Carr was the better passer. Though it would've been interesting to see what Vince would've done during a 5th year like Carr had. Advantage = Carr
Total career rushing stats:
Vince Young - 457 carries, 3,127 yards (6.8 ypc), 37 TDs
David Carr - 159 carries, 486 yards (3.1 ypc), 9 TDs
Young was the better runner. Advantage = Young
Total TDs:
Vince Young - 81
David Carr - 79
Advantage = Young
Record as a starter:
Vince Young - 30-2
David Carr - 18-8
Spare me the "Vince had better surrounding talent" garbage. If you believe Carr played against the same level of talent as Texas, you're punch drunk. Advantage = Young
Career accomplishments:
Vince Young -
Maxwell Award
Cingular/ABC Sports Player of the Year
Davey O'Brien Award
Manning Award
Big12 Offensive Freshman of the Year
Big12 Freshman of the Year
Big12 Honorable Mention
Big12 Player of the Year
First-team All-Big12
First-team All-American
2X Rose Bowl MVP
National Champion
First player ever with 3,000+ passing/1,000+ rushing
Heisman voting - 2nd in 2005
David Carr-
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Sixth player ever with at least 4,000 passing yards/40 TDs
Heisman voting - 5th in 2001
Advantage = Young
Young had the better college career...and it's not even close.
Where you're drafted has no bearing on what type of career you had in college. Using Carr's 1st overall pick status as a reflection of his college career would be like saying Tommie Frazier's undrafted status is a reflection of his. If you disagree, I'd really like to hear your explanation.
Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.
Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.
Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall
Not sure what you're trying to point out with these:
Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.
Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.
Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.
Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.
Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.
Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.
For starters, Young played against a lot of guys that were picked in the draft the past couple of years. If you asked AJ Hawk about his impression of Vince Young, what do you think he'd say?
Next, Young played with Sloan Thomas and Roy Williams for all of one season. Do you hear Jake Delhomme complaining that Steve Smith is only 5'9? And how tall is Bernard Berrian?
Again, when factoring in the teammates they played with, consider the level of talent they played against.
Why point out the differences in the rankings of their passing offenses but not point out the differences in the rankings of their rushing offenses?
Young played for the National Champion UT Longhorns? Don't you think he had a pretty big part in how they got to be National Champs? Wouldn't you also say that that is a direct reflection of his college career?
And while I agree that it's unfair the mid-major conferences will never be given a fair shot at winning the MNC, you can't exactly use that as a reason for not winning the MNC during a season in which you lost to Boise State and Hawaii.
Vince Young - 444/718 (61.8%), 6,040 yards, 44 TDs, 28 INTs
David Carr - 587/934 (62.6%), 7,849 yards, 70 TDs, 23 INTs
Carr was the better passer. Though it would've been interesting to see what Vince would've done during a 5th year like Carr had. Advantage = Carr
Total career rushing stats:
Vince Young - 457 carries, 3,127 yards (6.8 ypc), 37 TDs
David Carr - 159 carries, 486 yards (3.1 ypc), 9 TDs
Young was the better runner. Advantage = Young
Total TDs:
Vince Young - 81
David Carr - 79
Advantage = Young
Record as a starter:
Vince Young - 30-2
David Carr - 18-8
Spare me the "Vince had better surrounding talent" garbage. If you believe Carr played against the same level of talent as Texas, you're punch drunk. Advantage = Young
Career accomplishments:
Vince Young -
Maxwell Award
Cingular/ABC Sports Player of the Year
Davey O'Brien Award
Manning Award
Big12 Offensive Freshman of the Year
Big12 Freshman of the Year
Big12 Honorable Mention
Big12 Player of the Year
First-team All-Big12
First-team All-American
2X Rose Bowl MVP
National Champion
First player ever with 3,000+ passing/1,000+ rushing
Heisman voting - 2nd in 2005
David Carr-
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Sixth player ever with at least 4,000 passing yards/40 TDs
Heisman voting - 5th in 2001
Advantage = Young
Young had the better college career...and it's not even close.
Where you're drafted has no bearing on what type of career you had in college. Using Carr's 1st overall pick status as a reflection of his college career would be like saying Tommie Frazier's undrafted status is a reflection of his. If you disagree, I'd really like to hear your explanation.
These are the ones that have no relevance towards determining which QB had the better career:Hulk75 said:
Carr runs a 4.64 40 time.
Vince runs a 4.5.8 40 time.
Carr played in a Offense that was pro style.
Vince played in a one read run, designed run play Offense.
Carr was selected #1 overall
Vince went #3 overall
Not sure what you're trying to point out with these:
Carr had less talent on both sides of the ball.
Vince had, well a lot of guys picked in the draft the last couple of years.
Carr had 5-9 and 5-7 foot WRs.
Vince had Sloan Thomas and 6-5 Roy Williams.
Carr had Parrish Gaines.
Vince had Cedric Benson.
Carr had the 54 ranked Defense his senior year.
Vince had the 10th ranked Defense his last year.
Carr had the 6th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his senior year.
Vince had the 40th ranked passing Offense in the Nation his last year.
Carr played for little old Fresno State
Vince played for the National Champion UT Longhorns.
For starters, Young played against a lot of guys that were picked in the draft the past couple of years. If you asked AJ Hawk about his impression of Vince Young, what do you think he'd say?
Next, Young played with Sloan Thomas and Roy Williams for all of one season. Do you hear Jake Delhomme complaining that Steve Smith is only 5'9? And how tall is Bernard Berrian?
Again, when factoring in the teammates they played with, consider the level of talent they played against.
Why point out the differences in the rankings of their passing offenses but not point out the differences in the rankings of their rushing offenses?
Young played for the National Champion UT Longhorns? Don't you think he had a pretty big part in how they got to be National Champs? Wouldn't you also say that that is a direct reflection of his college career?
And while I agree that it's unfair the mid-major conferences will never be given a fair shot at winning the MNC, you can't exactly use that as a reason for not winning the MNC during a season in which you lost to Boise State and Hawaii.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Huge gets a spiced Harumph with a side of Harumphed potatoes. Nice post.
Titan "Tack" Fan
Veteran
The poll don't lie.
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
Not really.
UT is basically like the Notre Dame of Texas -- it usually does the best recruiting in the state. It is a shame that they don't get in the National Championship every year the way they field teams. Basically, I view UT as the New York Yankees of Texas College Football.
vy was on a good team, I'll give him that. But vy would not have won a National Championship with the teams from Fresno State. He is an average QB, and on an average team he would have looked even more average.
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
Nope, not a joke. You totally missed the point. Winning a National Championship is a team effort. vy would not have been there without that particular team. Period.
FACT -- Rex Grossman won the NFC Championship. Does that mean he is a better QB than Drew Brees? No. But he still won the NFC Championship. All on him, or a team effort? Stick with your main arguement when you reply.
FACT -- Rex Grossman won the NFC Championship. Does that mean he is a better QB than Drew Brees? No. But he still won the NFC Championship. All on him, or a team effort? Stick with your main arguement when you reply.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
If there is anybody still arguing that david had the better college career based on pure passing yards, then Timmy Chang beat the crap out of them both
R
real
Guest
Huge
All Pro
Nope. Notre Dame is the UT of Indiana.
And what part of being the first QB to pass for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 1,000 yards in the same season (along with leading the country in passing efficiency) screams "average QB" to you?
Do "average QBs" pass for over 270 and run for over 200 in National Title games? If that's "average" in your eyes, what's "above average"? Hell, what's "really good"?
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
True. I'll give you that.Nope. Notre Dame is the UT of Indiana.
No. It "screams" heck of an offensive line. You don't get stats like that without good recruitment to pad the O-line. Props to Mack on that one.
It was a really good team. I can't stress that enough. But I still think USC would have won the game if not for the poor coaching decision of alternating running backs. So, despite UT's great play, they still never put USC really out of it the whole game.
Huge
All Pro
There have been many teams with great OL's...some even better than what Texas had two years ago. Their QBs never sniffed the production (both passing and rushing) Young had.OrangeCountyTexansFan said:
If my aunt had nuts...OrangeCountyTexansFan said:
USC was a great team in their own right. Not putting them away 'till the end is not a knock on any player/team.
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
Well, I'll agree to disagree with you. I think the National Championship is a result of a great team, not one player. To each his own though.
R
real
Guest
So you're telling me you would have rather had Carr's college career than VY's ?
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
How many times must I roll my eyes at this?
If I were a QB (which I'll admit I'm not before you point out the obvious), I would have wanted to play on a team like Texas for my playing career. Much better padding.
To take away from Carr, who had to do a lot with a much worse team (by comparison to UT's Nat. Championship squad that is), is stupidity. He still accomplished quite a lot and had to work hard to do it. He wasn't first in the draft because of who his daddy was either. He earned it.
That isn't to say Carr is playing well now, as I think he is not. But I really don't think vy will be in the Super Bowl in another four years either. But we'll see how his first five years play out. Maybe he'll prove me wrong. There is no guarantee either way.
But he is still a rival and I will still not root for him. The Texans were not going to pick vy, so why does everyone keep complaining about it? Even if we hadn't gone with Mario we would have picked Bush, not vy.
If I were a QB (which I'll admit I'm not before you point out the obvious), I would have wanted to play on a team like Texas for my playing career. Much better padding.
To take away from Carr, who had to do a lot with a much worse team (by comparison to UT's Nat. Championship squad that is), is stupidity. He still accomplished quite a lot and had to work hard to do it. He wasn't first in the draft because of who his daddy was either. He earned it.
That isn't to say Carr is playing well now, as I think he is not. But I really don't think vy will be in the Super Bowl in another four years either. But we'll see how his first five years play out. Maybe he'll prove me wrong. There is no guarantee either way.
But he is still a rival and I will still not root for him. The Texans were not going to pick vy, so why does everyone keep complaining about it? Even if we hadn't gone with Mario we would have picked Bush, not vy.
R
real
Guest
The topic of this thread is which QB had the better college career.
The answer seems fairly obvious. But maybe it's just me, and ten million of my closest friends that feel that way.
R
real
Guest
The only case you can make for Carr is that he put up a lot of stats.
So did Timmy Chang and Colt Brennan. I guess they had better careers than VY too.
So did Timmy Chang and Colt Brennan. I guess they had better careers than VY too.
OrangeCountyTexansFan
Waterboy
Which made him the first pick in the draft.
Even with a National Championship under his belt, Bush was still predicted to go before vy. (And did.)
Personally, if smart decisions are made over the next two to three years, I think we will be in a better boat than the Traitors will be in.
Huge
All Pro
We don't disagree in that it takes a team to win a national championship. We simply disagree on the opinion that Vince was an average QB.
So I'll pose the question again, if Vince was an average QB, who, in your opinion, was a good QB?
If Vince was successful because of the talent surrounding him, was Reggie Bush an average RB? Because I guarantee he had just as much, if not more, surrounding talent than Vince did.
I can see how this is relevent. Actually, I can't.OrangeCountyTexansFan said: