the wonger need food
All Pro
DC or VY
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Which QB had a better college career?
- Thread starter the wonger need food
- Start date
DominickDavisFan76
Waterboy
I would say David Carr because he didnt have much help on that Bulldogs squad so....DC
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
DominickDavisFan76 said:
accomplishing nothing with a bad team doesnt make a good career
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
swtbound07 said:
Really? Well maybe not more than College Hall of Fame and Pro Football Hall of Fame--almost accomplishing nothing (no bowl games) and narrowly averting no SB's with the addition of a running game. Guess who?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elway
These kinds of debates go nowhere because nobody agrees on the standards and usually adopts a standard to achieve a desired result.
TwinSisters
Veteran
infantrycak said:
I agree. I think Bosworth is in the College Hall of Fame also
also after looking at it... they have like 10,000 people in the College HOF. So pretty much if you got your named called more then once by the announcer on the loudspeakers, you get a ticket to the College Hall of Fame.
Honoring Earl 34
Something Witty !
I had never heard of Carr until the summer before his senior year . Vince I knew about when he was in High School . Carr had a monster senior year while Vince had two good years and two great bowl games . I figure Vince got his team to the Rose Bowl twice and dominated both games so I give the who's the best QB award to Vince .
John Elway was the best QB prospect that I have seen , so Carr and VY don't play in his league . Having said that , Elway struggled his first couple of years with Denver so I don't care how good Vince looks in camp ... he can't carry a team for 16 games as a rookie .
John Elway was the best QB prospect that I have seen , so Carr and VY don't play in his league . Having said that , Elway struggled his first couple of years with Denver so I don't care how good Vince looks in camp ... he can't carry a team for 16 games as a rookie .
TexanFan881
All Pro
There was a debate with this in the other thread and now it has it's own thread 
But Carr definately had a better college career. A championship says the team whole team got it done, not just one particular player.
But Carr definately had a better college career. A championship says the team whole team got it done, not just one particular player.
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
Carr, without a doubt. He did so much his Senior year that I was not surprised he took 1st rank in his draft.
Hutch13
List of demands
VY he had one of the best preformances in the national championship ... i like david carr as a player but vince yound did so much 30-2 record best by a QB at UT dont think carr had that good of a record
Vince Young (and a national championship)
2006 - Manning Award winner
2006 - Rose Bowl MVP (at end of 2005 season)
2005 - Finalist for Heisman Trophy
2005 - The Cingular Player of the Year Award
2005 - All-American Offensive Player
2005 - The Maxwell Award - College Player of the Year
2005 - Davey O'Brien National Quarterback Award
2005 - 1st Team All-Big 12 Conference honors (unanimous decision)
2005 - Rose Bowl Most Valuable Player (at end of 2004 season)
2004 - Honorable mention All-Big 12 Conference honors
2003 - Big 12 Conference Offensive Freshman of the Year
David Carr
Carr's 2001 Awards
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Vince Young (and a national championship)
2006 - Manning Award winner
2006 - Rose Bowl MVP (at end of 2005 season)
2005 - Finalist for Heisman Trophy
2005 - The Cingular Player of the Year Award
2005 - All-American Offensive Player
2005 - The Maxwell Award - College Player of the Year
2005 - Davey O'Brien National Quarterback Award
2005 - 1st Team All-Big 12 Conference honors (unanimous decision)
2005 - Rose Bowl Most Valuable Player (at end of 2004 season)
2004 - Honorable mention All-Big 12 Conference honors
2003 - Big 12 Conference Offensive Freshman of the Year
David Carr
Carr's 2001 Awards
Johnny Unitas Award
Football News Offensive Player of the Year
Sammy Baugh Award
WAC Offensive Player of the Year
First-team All-WAC
CNN/SI Honorable mention All-American
Hulk75
Veteran
You make me laugh bro, strap it up before you make comments like that.swtbound07 said:
Guy shattered every record Fresno ever had, on the field and in the weight room............You never saw a game so you cant really say he accomplished nothing.
Yea he did nothing besides get drafted #1..................
That was only 2 years worth..........I doubt that is nothing.............O and do you know who holds the record for the most recieving yards for a WR in a bowl game? Rodney Wright Fresno State 299 yards..........Carr threw for 531 yards.............
He did all that with only 29 yards rushing for the team. When the Defense knew he was throwing the ball.
Your deffinition of nothing is scary.
the wonger need food
All Pro
Hulk75 said:
Wow!!!! Carr led his team to a loss against a 7-5 (32nd ranked) Michigan State team. And that's the highlight of his college career???
TwinSisters
Veteran
Exascor said:
That's what I was thinking too... Klingler and Andre Ware.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
the wonger need food said:
This is priceless. So throwing for 521 yds and 4 TD's is not doing his part?--it isn't a great game from the QB because his team couldn't rush or play D? Y'all are drawing way too narrow a line and one obviously chosen to pick a certain person. But for Michael Huff stopping White, by this standard VY's Rose Bowl performance would have been worthless. That's silly--VY's game was epic either way.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
awtysst said:
So John Elway didn't have a better college career than Vince Young?
Is this a fully developed mechanical ranking system?
National Championship
get to National Championship
win multiple bowl games
win at least one bowl game
get to multiple bowl games
get to at least one multiple bowl games
Wow there must be hundreds of QB's with better college careers than John Elway by this simplistic approach.
Exascor
Veteran
That's a joke right? I like Vince and think he had an outstanding year but the championship is the least important stat in his resume. Were Elway and Marino better QBs than the QBs that went to the championship games during their college careers? My internet is blocked at work but I'm sure that the vast majority of championship QBs in college have NOT been the best QB in the nation. They just happen to play on the best team. Championships aren't won by QBs. They are won by teams. Period.awtysst said:
See: Manning, Peyton or Marino, Dan
I'd say based on stats, Carr had a better college career.
But based on results, Young had a better career.
I'm not saying that Young is "better" or "worse", but champsionships are why they play the game.
It's such a subjective argument, though, because there are no unanimously agreed upon standards to measure "better career". It's all in the eyes of the opinion maker.
But based on results, Young had a better career.
I'm not saying that Young is "better" or "worse", but champsionships are why they play the game.
It's such a subjective argument, though, because there are no unanimously agreed upon standards to measure "better career". It's all in the eyes of the opinion maker.
R
real
Guest
Exascor said:
The question is which QB had the Better career...Not who was the better QB.....Yes Great Qb's can be on bad teams and not get all the recognition of a lesser skilled Qb on a good team...but that wasn't the question posed in the thread...Even if you feel that D.Carr is the more skilled QB, that doesn't mean he had the better career...Like Dwayne Wade, and LeBron James...I think LeBron is more skilled and a better overall player, but up to this point D.Wade has had the better career, IMO...
And really it all depends on how you define better career...everyone talks about it being a team game so why put individual stats ahead of team accomplishments? It's not youngs fault he went to UT, and D.Carr went to Fresno...IMO, I define better Career like this...If I had the chance to have lived in either one of there shoes during their respectable college careers I would without a doubt choose V.Youngs over Carrs...end..........of...............story
Exascor said:
I was going to use that same players in a scenario!
Interesting question: what would you rather have, a Superbowl ring or a HoF ring? One is the ultimate team achievement, and the other the ultimate individual achievement.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Double Barrel said:
IMO most players would answer SB ring as a general hypothetical. Having said that, I really can't see Marino giving up having been regarded as one of the if not the best QB in the game for a decade and the Hall of Fame to be regarded as a QB who the team won in spite of rather than because of.
R
real
Guest
Exascor said:
Just depends on your def. of better....IMO, Dan Marino...
hollywood_texan
All Pro
Vince Young.
I am not sure what the point of this is though. Both were on very different teams, played in different conferences, and played different opponents.
My arguement stems from Vince not only accumulated amazing stats but he led the Longhorns to an undefeated season, including victories over very strong opponents Ohio State and USC, which make him the better quarterback from a college perspective. Also, remember he came through in the clutch every time in 2005 and many times in 2004.
Also, Vince makes bolds statements and follows them up.
I am not sure what the point of this is though. Both were on very different teams, played in different conferences, and played different opponents.
My arguement stems from Vince not only accumulated amazing stats but he led the Longhorns to an undefeated season, including victories over very strong opponents Ohio State and USC, which make him the better quarterback from a college perspective. Also, remember he came through in the clutch every time in 2005 and many times in 2004.
Also, Vince makes bolds statements and follows them up.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
If your only accomplishment is passing stats plus mediocre record, then BJ Symons and timmy chang should be leading this discussion. Vince put up crazy stats and got a ring, plus a sick W-L record. Carr isn't even in Young's league.
Chicagotexan1
Veteran
Yince shmince!! One good year capped by a ring. Tommie Frazier did it twice!! Guess I should read the previous post that say I should read the previous posts.
infantrycak said:
Well, maybe second best.
Montana is a HoF QB with four rings. (he gets my vote as "best"). The weird thing is that Marino only made it to the SB once, early in his career. I kind of see P. Manning as a modern day Marino, with T. Brady being his modern version of Montana. Which is another interesting question: who would you rather have today, Brady or Manning?
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Double Barrel said:Well, maybe second best.
The weird thing is that Marino only made it to the SB once, early in his career. I kind of see P. Manning as a modern day Marino, with T. Brady being his modern version of Montana. Which is another interesting question: who would you rather have today, Brady or Manning?
All four of those guys are great IMO. However in each era IMO the better QB played for the lesser team. Marino was better than Montana and Manning is better than Brady. I see no reason to believe Marino would have achieved worse results in San Fran or Manning in NE. I do have concerns that if Manning went down in team quality rather than up he might start to look more human than some of the others--he certainly helps elevate his team but there have been several incidents which IMO have demonstrated a very poor reaction to pressure and a tendency to expect (and receive so maybe that is chicken and egg) special treatment. I still think I would take Manning--yuck hate saying that as I am not fond of him. Who would you rather have?
Part of me thinks about the so-called "intangibles", and more specifically, the ability to perform under pressure with a cool, calm demeanor. Montana (and Brady) are both known for their poise in high pressure situations. Personally, I value this quality more than arm strength, accuracy or other physical attributes.
It is an interesting question, would Marino have four rings if he was a 49er instead of a Dolphin? It's hard to say, because I never want to be seen as taking shots at one of the greatest QBs in history (Marino). But watching NFL Films and seeing some of the situations that Montana was able to pull through is simply mind-boggling. And I have to wonder if any QB, no matter how much physical gifts they possess, would be able to perform as well under the same circumstances.
One of the great QBs that I'm most familiar with is Warren Moon. Dude had an arm that was out of this world, and I personally believe that he would have held some of Marino's passing records if he had been drafted as a QB into the NFL. BUT, Moon still seemed to lack that little quality that demanded something greater from his teammates. I'll never blame 35-3 on him - obviously he had as perfect of a half as a QB can have - but I still have to wonder if some of those passes in the second half would have been different with a Montana. In addition, the legendary QBs had a way of inspiring even their own defensive players. I'll never forget that look of "WTF" on Moon's face during the last part of that game as he sat alone on the end of the benches. I'm not slamming him, as I've got a great deal of respect for him. It's merely an interesting question to contemplate.
These are speculative answers, so it's not really a debate I'm trying to create. I find the "what if" conversations very interesting, though, because it helps shed some light on the very minor differences between the greatest players of all time.
It is an interesting question, would Marino have four rings if he was a 49er instead of a Dolphin? It's hard to say, because I never want to be seen as taking shots at one of the greatest QBs in history (Marino). But watching NFL Films and seeing some of the situations that Montana was able to pull through is simply mind-boggling. And I have to wonder if any QB, no matter how much physical gifts they possess, would be able to perform as well under the same circumstances.
One of the great QBs that I'm most familiar with is Warren Moon. Dude had an arm that was out of this world, and I personally believe that he would have held some of Marino's passing records if he had been drafted as a QB into the NFL. BUT, Moon still seemed to lack that little quality that demanded something greater from his teammates. I'll never blame 35-3 on him - obviously he had as perfect of a half as a QB can have - but I still have to wonder if some of those passes in the second half would have been different with a Montana. In addition, the legendary QBs had a way of inspiring even their own defensive players. I'll never forget that look of "WTF" on Moon's face during the last part of that game as he sat alone on the end of the benches. I'm not slamming him, as I've got a great deal of respect for him. It's merely an interesting question to contemplate.
These are speculative answers, so it's not really a debate I'm trying to create. I find the "what if" conversations very interesting, though, because it helps shed some light on the very minor differences between the greatest players of all time.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Double Barrel said:
Completely understand this point of view, but I have a hard time judging IT myself and in looking at how many other people do it, IT seems far too outcome related than reasonable IMO. For example, folks point to the Rose Bowl as one of VY's crowning achievements and rightfully so. Fact is though, absent a stop by the D, Texas goes home without a trophy. IMO the different result wouldn't have reflected a bit on whether VY has IT. I just don't see it as simply as winning and losing. Some of the great leaders of all time have lost most of their battles--Rommel undoubtedly had IT--but his team was outmatched.
PS--you didn't pick between Manning and Brady.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
infantrycak said:
Are you referring to Hitler not following his recommendations? At points, the biggest obstacle to Rommel's success was Hitler himself. I believe history shows several key points in WWII where Rommel made the correct call but Hitler chose otherwise. Examples, Dunkirk and Normandy. Huge mistakes by Hitler.
However, in North Africa, Rommel lacked ammunition, gas, and equipment. Basically outgunned. That's probably what you were referring to.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
hollywood_texan said:
Well I wouldn't want to be described as making "excuses" for Rommel but you have identified some of the problems with his team.
We could play this game with Robert E. Lee as well--clearly the best leader of the War of Northern Aggression.
hollywood_texan
All Pro
infantrycak said:Well I wouldn't want to be described as making "excuses" for Rommel but you have identified some of the problems with his team.
We could play this game with Robert E. Lee as well--clearly the best leader of the War of Northern Aggression.
Yeah, you are right.
Lincoln was all over the previous generals to Grant to engage the Confederate army at all costs. Grant was willing to do it and paid the cost.
Just trying to provide a little more historical perspective.
Totally agree with your first point!
TwinSisters
Veteran
I don't get it.
Did somebody just compare Rommel and Dan Marino to David Carr?
I think that is what I saw, but I am not sure.
WTF.
( and that was an example of earnest usage )
Did somebody just compare Rommel and Dan Marino to David Carr?
I think that is what I saw, but I am not sure.
WTF.
( and that was an example of earnest usage )
TexansLucky13
53d Signal Batt
TwinSisters said:
Hahaha. And so ends the Carr/Young thread... we need to have the name changed to "Hitler's Greatest Mistakes in the European and African Theatre of WWII".
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TwinSisters said:
Hmmm, all made sense at the time--John Elway was in there also by the way.
Hulk75
Veteran
Atleast they were not ranked 45!the wonger need food said:
530 yards passing against a better Defense and less talent around him...WOW!!!!!! And Carr does not have designed run plays and one look and run passing plays.
O my bad 48...............And look at that little old Fresno State had a better D then USC and better then Big 12 schools.
Waite did VY not go crazy all over Colorado too.
VY won a national title can never take it away, but I still think Carr was and is the better QB.
R
real
Guest
Hulk75 said:
I think he was reffering to Michigan States overall ranking whereas you only have their defensive ranking....USC was the number one ranked BCS team....
infantrycak said:
Brady.
I definitely understand where you're coming from, though. It's an interesting coffee discussion, but that's all it can be. Fact of the matter is that Montana had better teams than Marino, and an argument could easily be made that any great QB - be it Marino, Elway, Moon, Kelly, etc. - would have found success with that kind of stellar talent around them. And it never hurts to have the greatest WR of all time catching your passes, either.
It is an intangible quality about leadership, tho'. Your historical references are right on. The Civil War would have been a blip on the historical radar if General Lee had chosen his allegiance to the union over his state. And if Rommel had been allowed to make military decisions during the D-day invasion, this would be a completely different world we live in right now.