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Where Tom Brady rank all time now?

The correct list of the best QBs of all time:
1. Tom Brady
2. Otto Graham
3. Sid Luckman
4. Sammy Baugh
5. Joe Montana

An argument could be made that Brady is not the best of all time, that argument is Otto Graham not Joe Montana. Graham played for 10 years, his team (the Browns, yeah the Cleveland BROWNS) made the championship all 10 years and won 7 of them. True the first 4 years were a rival league, but when the Browns moved to the NFL they continued to dominate so they probably would have dominated the NFL in the 4 previous years.

Even so, at this point I would move Brady to #1.

Baugh revolutionized the game. He was the first QB to turn the forward pass into an offensive weapon instead of an act of desperation. Back then other teams would only attempt a pass on 3rd and 8 or longer (you know - the same situation today that BOB calls a draw play). It was very tempting to put him ahead of Luckman, but Luckman was close behind and gets bonus points for championship success (was it the play of Luckman or the genius of George Halas? Like the Brady / Belichick question).

Starr won championships but was a game manager compared to these guys. Unitas racked up 40,000 yards when that meant something. Elway has great physical tools. Peyton Manning was great - in the regular season. Staubach had that "it" factor.

But if anyone's list of the top few QBs doesn't include Brady and Graham then their list is not credible.
 
JB said:
Baugh was a player, not just a QB but yeah
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Not only one of the greatest QBs ever, he also played DB and punted. Led the league with 11 INTs in 1943. His career average of 45.1 yards per punt is the best of anyone whose career started before 2000. His season average of 51.4 yards per punt in 1940 is still the NFL record. So yeah, definitely a player.
 
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To say Brady is the best because he's gotten 5 titles? can't do it
won't do it, not when you have? issues of cheating as part of the
reason as to why you've gotten that far to begin with

that doesn't mean however that New England and Brady haven't
worked hard to get to the point they have, They have, Nobody is
gonna take that part away from them.

I just can't see cheaters as someone credible enough to earn the
right to be called the best ever, when others out there, worked
equally as hard and didn't need Tom foolery to get it
 
steelbtexan said:
Brady/Montana/Elway/Staubach are/ were the best with the game on the line.
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Add Otto Graham and I totally agree!

Y'all do what you want (these 'lists' are subjective anyway) but I refuse to pick a modern guy and put him over the others that came before him. And, like Fred indicated, you CAN NOT have an 'All-Time' list and not have Otto Graham at or near the top. How can you leave off a man whose career record is 105-17-4?? What other QB has an 83.333 career winning pct? What other QB took his team to the championship game every year he was in the pros?

Like others said, everyone has their own metrics.
 
Meh, I consider pre-AFL(1960) and post so distinct that they shouldn't be mixed - have a greatest for each period. Pre-AFL football was largely played without blacks and was barely a professional sport (players frequently had 'real' jobs).
 
Baugh was good, so was Graham but could they really be as good in a league
of parody like today? probably not, So I agree with Infantrycak the guys who
played during that era pre 1960, should be left exactly where they are at,
and begin to examine how Brady stacks up against the all time greats of the
modern day era NFL
 
Mollywhopper said:
Just as a specific rule? Why not?
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The old school guys changed the game. Sammy Baugh made passing into a weapon. Otto Graham took that to another level and was in the championship game every year he played. Johnny Unitas basically invented the two-minute drill. Staubach made scrambling something to be feared from the QB position. Montana (Walsh really) put the 'West Coast Offense' on the map. Fouts and Marino made passing something to be feared when most teams were still run-first. All those guys changed the nature of the game.

Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Matt Ryan (this year) all play run & shoot football, using 3, 4, or 5 WR sets. They're defintely the best at what they do - and, yes, Brady is the big winner among them. But they play the same pass-happy game that Fouts and Marino played. They took it to a new level but they didn't change the game like Baugh, Graham, and Staubach did.

It's basically the same "different era" idea that I-Cak and TexasCowboy talked about.
 
ObsiWan said:
The old school guys changed the game. Sammy Baugh made passing into a weapon. Otto Graham took that to another level and was in the championship game every year he played. Johnny Unitas basically invented the two-minute drill. Staubach made scrambling something to be feared from the QB position. Montana (Walsh really) put the 'West Coast Offense' on the map. Fouts and Marino made passing something to be feared when most teams were still run-first. All those guys changed the nature of the game.

Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Matt Ryan (this year) all play run & shoot football, using 3, 4, or 5 WR sets. They're defintely the best at what they do - and, yes, Brady is the big winner among them. But they play the same pass-happy game that Fouts and Marino played. They took it to a new level but they didn't change the game like Baugh, Graham, and Staubach did.

It's basically the same "different era" idea that I-Cak and TexasCowboy talked about.
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I forgot about Graham, gotta give it to the winningest QB of all time. People say playing QB is harder today. They are wrong, QB's of that day took a beating. Today's roughing the passer rule is quite different than in the Graham/Baugh/Staubach/Montana etc... Roughing the passer basically was only called when the QB took a hit that knocked him out of the game.

In addition to changing the game Baugh's 51.4 punting avg is 51.4 in any era.
 
If anyone helped change the game? it was guys like Paul Brown. Tom Landry, Vince
Lombardi and others who coached. Not that Baugh didn't have his own style but again
the coaches should be credited before the players in this case wouldn't you agree?
 
TexasCowboy said:
Baugh was good, so was Graham but could they really be as good in a league
of parody like today? probably not, So I agree with Infantrycak the guys who
played during that era pre 1960, should be left exactly where they are at,
and begin to examine how Brady stacks up against the all time greats of the
modern day era NFL
Click to expand...

And whose to say those old-timers wouldn't be as good or better in today's game with the training and rules they have now, and vise-versa? Is Tom Brady the same on those 50's Browns? Hell, is he the same had he been drafted by the 2000 Browns?

Sure, guys like Otto Graham were playing against guys that had day jobs, or not playing against black athletes, but he was still above and beyond anyone playing in that era. Put him in today's era where it's his only job, he gets the year round training and everything else that comes with today's game, and whose to say he's still not above and beyond?

Yes, the game has evolved, it is different now than it was 50 years ago, or 20 for that matter, and that makes it real, real hard to compare players from different eras.

Otto Graham still has the 4th highest TD% in NFL history and is #1 all-time in Y/A. That's got to say something in this the era of the pass with the rules protections that are in place, where today's QBs and receivers can barely be touched and yesteryear's QBs and receivers were mauled. Otto Graham has the 24th best passer rating in NFL history. That probably doesn't sound too impressive until you consider that 21 of the QBs ahead of him on that list have played their careers since 2000. The only pre-2000 QBs ahead of Graham are Steve Young and Joe Montana.

So dismissing those pre-60's guys for whatever reasons that you decide, doesn't really mean much. They're still there, they still impacted the game and they were still great players.

Who is the greatest of all-time? Who cares? It's all subjective anyway. Example, you're not even considering anyone pre-60 even though that's included in ALL-TIME. Then again, you've got this huge problem with the definition of the last 20 years going on so that's understandable. Yeah, I stumbled into that thread one day.
 
TexasCowboy said:
Baugh was good, so was Graham but could they really be as good in a league
of parody like today? probably not, So I agree with Infantrycak the guys who
played during that era pre 1960, should be left exactly where they are at,
and begin to examine how Brady stacks up against the all time greats of the
modern day era NFL
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Did you mean parity? I think that both would've succeeded just fine in the modern NFL. I think modern day athletes would be just as successful in earlier eras. Sure the game has changed, but that doesn't mean as much at the QB position as it does in the trenches and at LB to me. Those are the two areas where I see the biggest difference: huge and athletic linemen and big, fast LB's. 250 lb guys used to play OL/DL. Now they are 300+ in most cases and LBs with 4.6 speed are 250+ lbs. Sure, QB's have gotten bigger, but not to the degree of linemen and linebackers.
 
I disagree today's NFL is faster, stronger, bigger than the era of Baugh and Graham
and unless you, had an really good running attack to alleviate the pressure of throwing
it 30 times a game, Baugh and Graham would be eaten alive in today's NFL
 
You can't just assume guys from the past to be simply plopped down into this era and be successful or not. That's just not fair. You can though begin to assume what a guy like Baugh or Graham would've done had they been born and raised in a more modern era. Had they been conditioned their whole lives to the speed and size and concepts we see in today's game. And them being the cream of the crop competitors and gamers that they were I personally think they'd not just hang but thrive.
 
TexasCowboy said:
If anyone helped change the game? it was guys like Paul Brown. Tom Landry, Vince
Lombardi and others who coached. Not that Baugh didn't have his own style but again
the coaches should be credited before the players in this case wouldn't you agree?
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I'm all about giving the coaches credit. I tried that path of discussion by giving Belichick a lot credit for Brady's SB wins.
Got called a Brady hater.
But Belichick got 3 of 4 wins with Brady on Goodell-imposed vacation for the first four games. And he got 11 wins out of Matt Cassel; who has done very little since.

One exception that could be argued is Montana. He was a winner in SF and went on to take a so-so KC team to the playoffs the two years he was there. And he was at the end of his career.
 
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Mollywhopper said:
You can't just assume guys from the past to be simply plopped down into this era and be successful or not. That's just not fair. You can though begin to assume what a guy like Baugh or Graham would've done had they been born and raised in a more modern era. Had they been conditioned their whole lives to the speed and size and concepts we see in today's game. And them being the cream of the crop competitors and gamers that they were I personally think they'd not just hang but thrive.
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Agreed. The flip side of that is to take your Aaron Rodgers, Tom Bradys, or Peyton Mannings and take away their year-round training routines, their nutritionists with specialized diet plans, all the modern day scouting techniques, and remove the fact that most of today's guys have been playing ball since they were in grade school. Oh and make them have regular jobs - as someone pointed out - in the off-season to make ends meet.

Now see if they can thrive back then when guys like Deacon Jones, Doug Atkinson, and Night Train Lane could take their (or their receivers') heads off with no penalties.

That's why I say you gotta break it down into eras.
 
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I've said this before.... I can respect Brady for what he's been able to accomplish but i'll always look at him as "the good soldier" type than the actual driving force...Which is why I can't put him as my GOAT. His success is at least ___% tied to Belichick and how he runs that team with shrewd moves, the culture and his ability to keep other teams in chase mode. He's certainly top 3 though. Staubach, Manning, Montana....with all I know about those guys & how I judge my qb's, they're all worthy for the GOAT position imo.
 
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