Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

[Texian]

It's been reported that Nick Saban is leaving Alabama for the University of Texas. Those in the know say it is a done deal. Saban's wife Terry has been spotted in Austin with a real estate agent. When Saban was reached for comment and asked why he was leaving Alabama, he responded, Manziel, I have to go somewhere I never have to worry about playing Johnny Manziel ever again. Every time I play him he takes 10 years off my life'

 

[TexansSeminole]

Manziel has more passing attempts because he is a better passer, though? He's more proficient at it than Vick was, so he passed more often. He's probably the best passer in the class after Bridgewater, looking at stats and competition. His talent for running is key, but I don't think he's quite the same as Vick's 'Check read and run' style, or at least has improved upon this from his freshman year.

It's not a zero-sum player where a proficiency for passing or rushing means deficiency in the other; Manziel is just adept at both.

FWIW I'm an LSU fan so I'm the LAST person who wants to see Manziel do well right now. Surprise, surprise, it IS possible to like Manziel without being an Aggie.

Manziel is undoubtedly a better passer than Vick was coming out of college. So is every single one of these prospects we are talking about. That wasn't my point, my point was to add context to a post that had none. He didn't run even close to the same offense and it was a different era. It was 15 years ago. His two year passing attempts total is less than what these guys do in 1 year. The game has changed in 15 years. Nearly all prospects are more advanced in passing concepts now than they were 15 years ago.

Michael Vick was a developmental passing prospect. He wasn't asked to pass a lot in college because they had a nice running game in their scheme and it won them games, got them to a championship. He was efficient enough for coaches to believe that they could develop him. He was drafted where he was drafted because he was a 6'1" 210 pound quarterback that ran a 4.33 and posted a 38" vertical at his combine. He was extremely explosive in a time where quarterbacks like him were rare. He also didn't have red flags.

My whole point was to show that making choice statistical comparison is a weak way to make an argument. Had Texian been fair about the way he argued his point, I would have taken a different approach to my response. But if we are just going to see poor comparisons, I'll come right behind and add context to them when needed to make for better comparison.

 

[WolverineFan]

While Michael Vick a redshirt Soph declaring for the draft compares to what Manziel will likely do. Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far.

As a Freshman Vick threw for 1840 yds, completed 58% of his passes, rushed for 580 yards, 12 Passing TDs, 5 INTs and 8 Rushing TDs.

Freshman Manziel threw for 3706 yds, completed 68% of his passes, rushed for 1410 yards, 26 Passing TDs, 9 INTs, 21 Rushing TDs.

Manziel threw for more yards as a Freshman than Vick threw for as a Freshman and Sophomore combined 3706 vs 3279; Rushing yards 1410 vs 1216; Passing TDs 26 vs 21; Rushing TDs 21 vs 17. From a production standpoint, Manziel is twice as good as Michael Vick, if not more.

Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.

Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.

 

[bhsman]

I can't help but feel that you are reaching a bit on that analogy.

EDIT: Manziel compared favorably to Wilson here

 

[Texian]

Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.

Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.

I could go on about why we differ but I will try to be succinct.

One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so.

To put things in perspective Graham played for Mike Leach. Anyone familiar with a Mike Leach offense knows if they ran the ball 10 times that was a lot. For those not familiar the offense was known as the dink and dunk, the gun and shoot, the Air Raid Offense.

Manziel plays in a Art Briles offense, the same offense that RGIII played in, the same offense the Washington Redskins adopted after drafting RGIII. So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.

 

[TexansSeminole]

One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so

Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Texian]

Mike Leach and his offense got to Texas Tech around 2000. Mike Vick left college in 2001. Comparing Vicks numbers of that time period is absurd but comparing Harrell stats from the same offense of that time period is not?

If you have an understanding of the offenses then a comparison is not ridiculous. To those who don't understand say a Leach offense then yes it could appear ridiculous to compare them. Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.

 

[Texian]

Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.

 

[WolverineFan]

Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?

LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted from Briles is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).

 

[WolverineFan]

Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.

What? Do you know who Leach's co-offensive coordinator was at Oklahoma? That's right...Kevin Sumlin. Sumlin learned that offense under Leach and took it to UH when he replaced Briles. The only reason you seem to think they are different is because Leach loves to throw the ball while Briles and Sumlin are more balanced. Those are different tendencies, not offensive styles.

Have you watched Virginia Tech play offense in the last 10 years? Because their offense hasn't changed much. Vick lined up in shotgun maybe 20% of the time when he played there. That's nothing similar to modern day spread.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.

Art Briles came from Tech and Sumlin from OU before they got to UH . They were never there together so it's each of their version of the spread . Who started the spread offense ?

 

[WolverineFan]

So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.

Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).

Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.

Yep ... you can have all the talent and numbers but you never know how they'll react when hit in the mouth in the NFL . That's where I think JF has an advantage because he is one fiery dude . I think Murray also because they've had to be tough .

 

[WolverineFan]

Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .

Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't running the "Briles" offense. Far from it.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't the "Briles" offense. Far from it.

I knew what you meant , I was thinking of the stale bread offense of the Texans and Skins and how it would kill Gary to incorperate something like a spread .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_offense

 

[mussop]

The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

 

[Exascor]

The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.

 

[mussop]

My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.

Yeh that's the one thing that worries me the most about him. You can't make those throws in the NFL. Hopefully that can be coached out of him.

 

[WolverineFan]

The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.

My thing with Manziel is the same thing I had with Griffin. The offense sets everything up for you. The system is designed to create mismatches that most teams are not equipped to handle. You usually know which mismatch that is before the play and do very little reading of defenses. The coach and the system do everything for you (hence the looking to the sideline before every snap).

You may not worry about him getting hurt, but if he keeps up that style of play he will eventually. His best play is outside of the pocket and teams will see that and try to take it away. Teams have kept Griffin in the pocket this year and he's nowhere near as effective.

 

[Texian]

Back to School: How Mike Shanahan Is Using RG3's College Offense With the Redskins

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...-using-rg3s-college-offense-with-the-redskins

 

[Texian]

Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

 

[infantrycak]

72% rushing is not a balanced offense and 66% passing is closer to balanced but also lopsided.

 

[Exascor]

Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

 

[WolverineFan]

Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.

You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.

Harrell and Manziel played in the same style of offense. One is pass heavy and one is more balanced. But it's still the same structure of offense. It's a spread offense.

Vick played in a run heavy offense that was not structured at all like a spread. It was a lot like the Alabama offense of recent years. It's a pro style offense.

You're trying to compare the Oregon and Stanford offenses and say they're similar because they both run a lot. Simply not accurate.

 

[WolverineFan]

Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

First year as a starter with QB runs subtracted...

2012 Manziel = 332 rush, 492 pass = 60% pass

2006 Harrell = 220 rush, 655 pass = 74% pass

1999 Vick = 474 rush, 227 pass = 32% pass

 

[Texian]

Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.

Vick Rushing Attempts = 113

Harrell Rushing Attempts = 35

Manziel Rushing Attempts = 201

 

[Texian]

You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.

The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.

 

[bhsman]

What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.

 

[WolverineFan]

The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.

I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

 

[WolverineFan]

What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.

These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L

 

[bhsman]

These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L

Interesting. Was mostly asking w/r/t the completion rate difference between Manziel and Vick.

 

[mussop]

I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

Actually when you consider the competition it does.

 

[WolverineFan]

Actually when you consider the competition it does.

I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).

 

[Texian]

I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.

I guess this where we have a fundalmental disagreement. I see where NFL coaches are incorporating this in to their offenses. I mentioned Washington incorporating some of Baylor's offense for RGIII and y'all mocked but it's the truth Shanahan did just that. Several NFL coaches flocked to Nevada to be tutored by Kaepernick's head coach.

We also see a difference in Leach vs Briles and Sumlin. Leach is much more pass oriented, yet Briles and Sumlin passing game are much more downfield oriented. A big majority of Leach's offense were mostly no read quick snap passes of < 5 yds. That is not the Briles & Sumlin offense or passing game. And I agree what Leach does that doesn't translate to the NFL.

Vick in college today, a hypothetical but I'll indulge in this game one time. Let's assume Vick is not at Tech but at Texas A&M today and the question is would he put numbers that equal or exceed Manziel. Passing no way, to suggest 54% completions would out perform 73% completions on 500 attempts is a futile argument not worth having and a waste of time. I suggest that Texas A&M would have lost considerably more games with a QB who only completed 54% of his passes. Rushing, IMHO doubtful Vick would be Manziel's equal. Manziel is a smarter football player than Mike Vick, sees the field better than Vick and because of that I don't think Vick's 5.9 YPC and 8 TDs at VT would translate in to Manziels 7.0 YPC and 21 TDs at Texas A&M. I am sure many will want to argue this differently.

I think Mike Vick is an amazing amazing athlete, his athleticism after all is what made him the #1 draft pick. Like Manziel, I have seen Mike Vick doing some amazing things on a football field. FYI - I have been a Falcons season ticket holder since 1987 and my house was 7 miles from Falcons HQ. I was on the front row at Falcons HQ the day Dan Reeves announced Vick as the #1 pick. Picture was in the AJC.

As for the defenses played, Manziel has played against some SEC defenses that are every bit as tough, if not tougher than defenses Mick Vick played while at VT.

 

[Texian]

.

I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).

IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.

 

[WolverineFan]

.

IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.

Oklahoma had the 64th ranked defense in the country last year and they had a couple of horrific games last year outside of the A&M game.

Ole Miss (#43) and Missouri (#52) both hang around #50 so I might give you those, but Auburn is #72. LSU is #24 FWIW.

The point I'm making is the strength of defense he faces is not really any different than Winston, Mariotta, Hundley, etc. The only outlier is Alabama, who Manziel played good against last year and dominated this year.

 

[bhsman]

I think the point is that, aside from fumbles (1 for Manziel to 0 for AJ) and Interceptions (11 on the year compared to 0!!! for Mariota), Manziel is playing exceptionally against those defenses, in addition to his game against Alabama.

 

[MistaRed]

Finally joined the Manziel hype train. Would not be mad at that pick.

 

[Rey]

I've watched manziel play one good team this year and that was auburn. I can't say I was impressed.

He didn't do the things that I'd want to see out if a franchise qb. Tbh he looks like keenum a little bit.

I have not watched any of the other top prospects except bridgewater for a little while, and he does what I would like to see from a franchise guy.

I would like to see manziel stay in school another year and really work on his passing. I don't like.

I'd rather a qb make plays from the pocket than to be running around all the time. I don't like that about keenum and I don't like it from manziel. You're going to often be inconsistent when you play like that in the nfl.

Contrast that with a guy like jaimes Winston or bridgewater or in the nfl Big Ben...guys that are mobile, but they aren't out there running all over the place and bailing all the time.

I'd prefer a guy like keenum or manziel to a guy like Matt, but if I'm taking a guy in the top of the first round, I guy who will carve you from the pocket primarily.

 

[Rey]

And I do think that keenum can become better in the pocket over the course of these few games. But it's going to be a team effort. Regardless, I want to see him hang in there for as long as possible.

 

[bhsman]

I've watched manziel play one good team this year and that was auburn. I can't say I was impressed.

...Alabama?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

 

[htownfan32]

I'd re-watch the Auburn tape to evaluate Rey's comments on Manziel, but I can't watch that game without feeling sick to my stomach.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

I'd re-watch the Auburn tape to evaluate Rey's comments on Manziel, but I can't watch that game without feeling sick to my stomach.

Bring a bucket . :vincepalm:

 

[Rey]

...Alabama?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

I did not see him play Bama. That's why I said "I've seen" and not "manziel has only played"....

I'm not condemning the guy. I'm just saying that he's going to have to change his game some, IMO, to be a good qb in the nfl.

 

[bhsman]

I did not see him play Bama. That's why I said "I've seen" and not "manziel has only played"....

I'm not condemning the guy. I'm just saying that he's going to have to change his game some, IMO, to be a good qb in the nfl.

Nothing stopping you from looking, though.

 

[aussie_texan]

Fo me it's a toss up between Clowney and Matthews.

Which way would you go?

Or is Johnny Football your pick? I would rather wait until 2015 see if Case is the guy and if he's not pick either Hogan/Petty.

our boy Hogan just lit it up today

 

[Mr teX]

...Alabama?

What's funny is that, near the end of the game, Manziel switches seamlessly between scrambling and stopping to view the field as if to pass. It was really awesome to see and you can tell the defense can't really do anything about it.

Dude threw a pick 6 and a red zone int....2 critical turnovers that ultimately were the difference in the game....

All the aggregate stats mean didley poo if you cost your team the game.....

 

[Rey]

Nothing stopping you from looking, though.

I'll probably get around to watching some of it.

I like manziel as a football player. But at the moment in thinking I wouldn't take him at the top of the first round. I don't like how he throws the ball. He doesn't seem like a natural passer to me.

But he has playmaking ability and if he can develop as a passer he could be really good. But the way he moves in the pocket, sees the field, reads defense...IMO it leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[bhsman]

Dude threw a pick 6 and a red zone int....2 critical turnovers that ultimately were the difference in the game....

All the aggregate stats mean didley poo if you cost your team the game.....

And if Manziel's defense could stop a nose bleed we'd be talking differently, but they can't.