What's the difference between Carr and P. Manning?

[HoustonFrog]

Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1428Even though he had an at least decent o-line, Marvin Harrison, Edge all but his rookie year, and Marcus Pollard who,for a while was a very good receiving TE.

BuffSoldier I appreciate your stats but one part of one season does not change my mind. You guys want to give Carr the world and try and compare him to Manning. Sorry but 5 games in a guys career isn't going to change the fact that he has had many others where he was just as pressured(JVille and succeeded). That was the argument wasn't it. What about the games where Banks did well under a bad line?You could sit here all day and say Carr did well when the perfect situations but I am looking at progress individually. That is what this thread was about. Did his bad days mirror a Manning bad day. He regressed this year. Even if the line was not at its best does that mean he can't grow when it comes to pocket awareness and holding the ball, etc. Why would ESPN spend half a game concentrating on him locking in on one receiver?You mentioned people being hard headed but every time I have been attacked no one has answered any questions I asked or asked what is the difference between Manning and other past QBs who went through the same. Or why he still has thrown for yardage in those bad games and almost pulled them out despite the day. Being a QB is alot more than stats or games that compare to others. Take for example, why would one of your lineman say you are not a leader?He has things to work on. Fiddy laid out the same things. If they were so similar then every team in the league would be swooping in to try and grab the next Manning from us. The funny part is, Carr used to be my favorite guy until he started regressing as a leader and player. I wish people concentrated more on saving guys that worked alot harder and we were paying less. We were 2-14 and everyone had a part in that.

SB, why do you attack the messenger instead of responding to any stats I gave you?

 

[Fiddy]

Regressed as a leader and a player? Example?

As a leader: It's hard to tell you, it's just how you read his body language on sidelines and stuff and you never hear about him giving those "this is it" speeches on the field. He has talked about how the QB is the leader on the field by default, but he has never shown himself to be one.

As a player: Did you see the season? He did improve on those hitch routes, I'll give him that.

 

[ComstockLode]

Did Carr have protection?

Well the claim is peyton cant play if he has no protection, and carr has the same ability as him. Well it looked like peyton still threw for 300.

 

[Wolf]

Carr is not Manning ...Manning can read defenses
Manning is not Carr.. he hasn't taken the pounding and has time to throw and has good weapons around him (D. Clark anyone Mathis anyone...etc.etc???)

With that said and now for the obvious.. I don't know any QB that can perform effectively with people in their face over and over... but that is up to the coaching staff to get plays (maybe draws or screens) to stop that or at least slow the defense down)

S.D. gave the blueprint this season on how to beat the Colts ... I expect every Defensive coordinater in the NFL to impliment that blueprint or something like that next season (Steelers used that S.D. gameplan and it worked again)

Reminds me of the Rams and their "Greatest Show on Turf" .. and teams started punching them in the mouth and look a Warner now.. never the same after taking the pounding over and over.... That is one thing I will say Carr is better than.. He has taken the pounding and still has some confidence. If only the new coaching staff will have confidence in him (Capers didn't) and vice versa in Carr with confidence in the coaching staff (whole team needs confidence in the coaching staff)

 

[HoustonFrog]

Regressed as a leader and a player? Example?

Well as a leader he has lost the team. Even in other years he wasn't attacking teammates on the field and yelling at guys. You have McKinney just a week ago saying he is not their leader. Again, you have reports earlier in the year that he refuses to stay after practice and watch extra film and his answer was family is more important. Respectable and a good guy but the pros is about sacrifice when you are making 8 mil.

Player wise I already mentioned his ability to lock in. Even if Andre is the man, you got Gafney in the 2nd round and have Armstrong. Are they great?No, but in order for an offense to work you have to progress through the reads. The O-line isn't great but if something isn't there, dump it unstead of going into the fetal position.

Comstock, I agree with you. That goes exactly to the point.

 

[Wolf]

Well as a leader he has lost the team. Even in other years he wasn't attacking teammates on the field and yelling at guys. You have McKinney just a week agon saying he is not their leader. Again, you have reports earlier in the year that he refuses to stay after practice and watch extra film and his answer was family is more important. Respectable and a good guy but the pros is about sacrifice when you are making 8 mil.

Player wise I already mentioned his ability to lock in. Even if Andre is the man, you got Gafney in the 2nd round and have Armstrong. Are they great?No, but in order for an offense to work you have to progress through the reads. The O-line isn't great but if something isn't there, dump it unstead of going into the fetal positio.

McKinney also said after the 2004 season that our line wasn't bad.


not sure on the reports, I remember Carr telling AJ that he could stay at his house (when AJ was drafted) and they could play catch.

2+ seconds have a tendancy to "lock in" basically it is look at 1st option then DD in the flat.. he doesn't have a dependable #2 WR or TE

with that said.. Carr doesn't read defenses too well. (seriously)

 

[Erratic Assassin]

A bad offensive line can make any QB look horrible. A good offensive line can make a marginal QB look good.

A good offensive line is a precondition for success. Carr has never really had a chance to grow. The only thing he has learned in 4 years is how to run for his life.

 

[HoustonFrog]

McKinney also said after the 2004 season that our line wasn't bad.


not sure on the reports, I remember Carr telling AJ that he could stay at his house (when AJ was drafted) and they could play catch.

2+ seconds have a tendancy to "lock in" basically it is look at 1st option then DD in the flat.. he doesn't have a dependable #2 WR or TE

with that said.. Carr doesn't read defenses too well. (seriously)

Agree with your last point too. To clarify, there would be nothing better if Carr improved and made me eat crow. I didn't get into this thread to just plain hate. Despite the debate I think Manning can be an a-hole on the field and as a teammate. What annoys me though is that you can't just take a 2-14 team and say if we stick these guys into a certain situation then things would be different. There are alot of talented guys who can't cut it in the league. Just like I don't think you can let Carr sit with a free pass after 4 years because the line is horrible. The whole team can improve, including him. I really don't get how people can give him a free pass and make exuses left and right for the guy when you could sit and say that coaching and many other excuses could have contributed to every player being better. Some guys can hack it and others can't. We will hopefully find out under a new coach.

 

[Hardcore Texan]

Note to self: Avoid arguments with Houston Frog and SBTexans08.

Sorry guys, I had to do it.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Note to self: Avoid arguments with Houston Frog and SBTexans08.

Sorry guys, I had to do it.

Considering this is the first one I have gotten into like this I wouldn't be afraid. LOL. I'm harmless. I even like SB

 

[Tulip]

Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

Yes. He threw for 293 against St. Louis and 295 against Jacksonville. He only had one other game over 200 yards -219 at Jacksonville. Also, he had 2 games under 100 yards (not including San Fran, of course) - 70 yards against Buffalo and 48 against Indianapolis.

 

[Wolf]

Yes. He threw for 293 against St. Louis and 295 against Jacksonville. He only had one other game over 200 yards -219 at Jacksonville. Also, he had 2 games under 100 yards (not including San Fran, of course) - 70 yards against Buffalo and 48 against Indianapolis.

That is a Capers style offense at it finest.. run, run, and then try to bail the offense out with a pass ( joking here because we did pass on 1st down). but overall.. Capers likes running the football.(nothing wrong with that)

seriously Capers has the mindset IMO .. and I can't remember what coach (bum phillips maybe?) that said when you pass 2 out of 3 things are bad.

 

[disaacks3]

A bad offensive line can make any QB look horrible. A good offensive line can make a marginal QB look good.


A good offensive line is a precondition for success. Carr has never really had a chance to grow. The only thing he has learned in 4 years is how to run for his life.

..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

 

[Wolf]

..see above...



I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

To play good cop/bad cop

I agree after watch Rex Grossman last weekend.. Carr when he thows looks exceptionally better than Grossman..
Yet, what does it matter if reading defenses are your weakness (Carr so far)

 

[Texan Gal 312]

One of the biggest knocks on Carr since he came out: He locks onto receivers. It doesnt matter if he did have a number 2 or a TE, if the player is not the first read or the dump down option, he isnt going to get many looks.

I think that is the way Pendry taught him. Mainly because he has to be rid of the ball in a Nano second.

I watch other quarterbacks drop back and step up in the pocket and throw the ball and not get hit. I am pretty sure I can count on two hands the number of times in a four year career that Carr has done that.

Hold the ball too long .. If the receiver doesn't read the defense correctly and cut a pattern off the qb looks like he holds the ball too long. In Carr's case and nano second plus .1.

I scanned through most of this thread but a couple of things jumped out. An offensive lineman claimed Carr was not a leader (can you give me a link ?) I think somebody did some very liberal interpertation here.
Receivers were upset because Carr doesn't stay after practice (link ?)
Carr doesn't watch film. (give me a break)

Atlanta game (won by banks ?) I don't remember all the details but I do remember Carr coming in and making a very huge run. After the game people were commenting on his leadership and courage.
New England game -- I don't remember Tony Banks being the quarterback in that game -(could be wrong).

Basically the whole argument has been two different points. Yes PM is better quarterback than DC. And yes PM looked extremely confused when pressured. And EVERY quarterback will.

 

[Napa Auto Parts]

about 100,000 yards 1000 touchdowns playoff expirience oh and one of this was a deserving 1st overall pick thats all i have of the top of my head.

 

[Fiddy]

I think that is the way Pendry taught him. Mainly because he has to be rid of the ball in a Nano second.

He locked onto AJ and Davis when Palmer was the OC so Pendry has nothing to do with that.

Banks started the Atlanta game and then broke his hand at the end of the first half. Banks played the entire Patriots game.

 

[infantrycak]

..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

Thanks--that saved me quite a bit of typing.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Texan Gal, it was McKinney who said he wasn't their leader and it was on 610 last week. I know others on here heard it. I'll try and find the link. Same with the film and practice comments. It was a full discussion after the 5th game or so on the radio show. I'll see what I can dig up or if it is audio archive.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

..see above...

Let me preface this by saying that Peyton Manning, if he can get his playoff act together, may go down as the best QB in NFL history. There isn't any QB (Brady included) who I think understands the game better.

I'd never project Carr to become the next Peyton Manning, but he doesn't need to be to take us to the playoffs. Give the man an EFFECTIVE O-Line (which he was promised in the LAST off-season) and then tell me how good / bad he can really be.

IMHO - You've gotta be awfully short-sighted to not see the resemblance under similar circumstances between their most dismal performances. Yes, Carr has a much longer list from which to choose, he also has a FAR worse line that's helped provide more examples. Every BAD choice that Manning made on Sunday wasn't the fault of his O-line, some were "on him" when he simply got too jumpy / made a bad read / locked on, etc. If the best QB in the NFL gets all jumpy when these games happen once a season, it's unfair to say Carr doesn't have potential when he has these games happen ALL the time.

That just maybe the best post I have read. Bravo friggin Bravo!

 

[infantrycak]

He locked onto AJ and Davis when Palmer was the OC so Pendry has nothing to do with that.

And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game.

Banks started the Atlanta game and then broke his hand at the end of the first half.

The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day.

I sure am looking forward to next year when everyone who is so sure that every player has shown their full potential under the now fired regime is surprised by the talent on the team.

 

[infantrycak]

Texan Gal, it was McKinney who said he wasn't their leader and it was on 610 last week. I know others on here heard it.

Can anyone without an obvious agenda please confirm or deny this?

 

[Fiddy]

And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game.

He locked onto Reggie Wayne twice at the end, dont remember the last one, but the 2nd to last was the deep bomb to the endzone. Yes, I guess Manning locked onto Wayne, but he was already in FG range and had the most accurate FG kicker in NFL history on his team. He took a shot at the end zone to end the game, and if it wasnt for a FABULOUS play by the CB, we are not talking about this. I dont remember any safety's near Wayne or in the picture so I'm guessing they had come down to blitz or whatever so there was one-on-one coverage on Wayne. Who was Manning suppose to look off??? There are times to lock onto WRs, the thing is Carr does it all the time.

The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day.

I wasnt giving credit to Banks that day, Texan Gal 312 didnt remember what games Banks started...

Can anyone without an obvious agenda please confirm or deny this?

I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

 

[wags]

I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

Does Steve not have any leadership skills? If Carr isn't a leader then why doesn't McKinney take charge as a veteran?

 

[Fiddy]

Does Steve not have any leadership skills? If Carr isn't a leader then why doesn't McKinney take charge as a veteran?

Ask Jamie Sharper that, too. He had that "there needs to be a leader on this team" speech. This team has never really had a true leader.

 

[infantrycak]

He locked onto Reggie Wayne twice at the end, dont remember the last one, but the 2nd to last was the deep bomb to the endzone. There are times to lock onto WRs, the thing is Carr does it all the time.

I don't think it is that black and white for either Manning or Carr. On the next to last pass attempt, Manning watched Wayne all the way down field and tossed it into tight coverage. No big deal, and I wouldn't overly fault him but it is fair to observe that he failed to see his TE, wide open 8 yds down field on the right--easy catch and run for at least a 12 yd play making the kick 34 yds instead of 46. On the last pass attempt, Manning was so fixated he almost tossed up a pick when Edge was uncovered in the flat which if the primary read isn't open is once again a field goal shortening better option. JMO but the book is still out on Carr and locking on--he has been bum rushed his whole career and has been running a pee-wee offense where a guy who thinks Victor Riley can start actually beats the former guy out of a job. Yeah, I am trusting anything they thought. We'll see.

I have an agenda but I do remember hearing McKinney on 610 say something to the effect that there was no real leader on the offense. Don't remember the exact words. It was posted on this board a few weeks back so I bet if I look hard enough I could find something, but I'm too lazy.

I won't claim to have heard every minute of McKinney on 610, but I have heard most and I need a little more than it happened either last week or a few weeks ago and was reported here in words to the effect of. May have happened--call me skeptical.

 

[HJam72]

Personally, I still think Manning is a great QB, but he's human just like all of them. He is better than Carr (most likely), but his failure to win against Pittsburgh shows that even the best will fail when their pass protection is blown up. David Carr is a good QB (no chance to prove he's great or not--just good) with a bad offense. Vince Young may very well be better, but I hate to see all this Carr ripping when he's put up with what amounts to crap for 4 years. The biggest joke of all, IMO, was just take 1.2 seconds to find an OPEN receiver and throw it because we can't get people in here to protect you. Now, one of the top-rated guys in the next draft is a QB FROM UT and suddenly Carr is the whole problem.

I know that SOME of you have been against keeping Carr for a while now (Kaiser Toro), but I also know that we've got more UT first fans around here these days than HT first fans.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I won't claim to have heard every minute of McKinney on 610, but I have heard most and I need a little more than it happened either last week or a few weeks ago and was reported here in words to the effect of. May have happened--call me skeptical.

One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

 

[HJam72]

I think it's hard for a QB to lead a team that seriously lacks talent (especially pass protection type talent) and has a coaching staff that really borders on clueless, at least as a whole. I've seen Carr act like a leader, but this year--how do you lead this crap? If he continues to yell at his linemen, it'll just start to look and feel like he's picking on losers who can't help it. If he had talented linemen, he could yell when they screw up and they could take it upon themselves to get mean and handle somebody, but who are they kidding? You can't lead and cheer on a guy with a knife to kill that dude over there with an oozie. It just doesn't work.

Oh, and McKinney talks to much anyway. He probably got tired of Carr yelling at him when he kept falling backwards into him last year.

 

[HJam72]

One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

How can you NOT be a VY drafter when you don't want Carr to stay? Are you wanting Leinhart or something? Not saying you have an agenda. You just don't like Carr as a QB.

 

[SBTexans08]

That is a Capers style offense at it finest.. run, run, and then try to bail the offense out with a pass ( joking here because we did pass on 1st down). but overall.. Capers likes running the football.(nothing wrong with that)

seriously Capers has the mindset IMO .. and I can't remember what coach (bum phillips maybe?) that said when you pass 2 out of 3 things are bad.

There's nothing wrong with that style of play, if you have the personnel to do so. Pittsburgh, Carolina, Jacksonville, Denver....teams like this have an identity of running the ball more so than pass. With this type of offense.....you need a defense to compliment as well, of which the teams mentioned did this past season. The Texans were neither...:brickwall

 

[HJam72]

I don't think that pass vs. run is this team's problem. It's the sacks and dropped passes that are the problem.

 

[HoustonFrog]

How can you NOT be a VY drafter when you don't want Carr to stay? Are you wanting Leinhart or something?

No, my thinking all along is to take Bush and then O-line and TE with the next early picks and see what you can do in FA. You get a stable vet backup for Carr and give him this one year to show what he has. I think VY will be a stud and he is a leader but I just haven't see a QB with the running skills like him succeed YET. My problem with the Carr deal is that I just get tired of people bending over backwards for the guy around here. It is a TEAM game. I used to be a fan of his. I have no reason to make up interviews about him but since I am a sports radio junkie and listen to it at work too, these subjects come up. My problem started last year at the end of the season when it seemed he was losing the team. He started pouting more this year and I was tired of post game interviews with him laughing and smiling and acting like it was no big deal. To me that fosters an acceptance of losing. It seemed to ME that he spent more time working with HEB then he did with the team. But at 2-14 there really can't be excuses for just one guy. He needs to be responsible for his own work and his regression this year. Same with the line. Same with the LBs. Same with the D-line. It is about accountability and Carr, with the money he makes, needs to be put under the microscope as much as the rest of the team. IMHO comparing him to Manning makes no sense. Different teams, different mentailty, different skills. If you did that fantasy land experiment you could put Ryan Leaf in a Colt situation and say he would have done better with that talent. Until this is turned around I am looking at things in a more critical sense. Maybe if people had done that before we wouldn't be paying big money for some guys while letting a McCree play his tail off for a SB contender.

 

[SBTexans08]

I don't think that pass vs. run is this team's problem. It's the sacks and dropped passes that are the problem.

Ehhh....I agree....that's the team's problem as well, but surely don't discount the fact that they tried to employ a scheme that was just uncharacteristic of this team. They didn't have the talent to do what they wanted to do.

 

[SBTexans08]

No, my thinking all along is to take Bush and then O-line and TE with the next early picks and see what you can do in FA

Finally....we agree on something!!


Seriously though....I still can't believe you guys are still making the conviction that I made this thread to compare Manning/Carr and their respective careers and milestones or lack of, for the matter. The point of this thread, **sighs**, was that doesn't Sunday's game make you wonder, "What good does it do to have a QB of Manning's calibur, weapons as you'd probably never see all in one offense as the Colts boast, along with an O-line that's highly regarded as being one of the best if when the house is being brought at you...you can't use their blitz against them?"

When teams blitz, there's a hole in their defense that can be exploited. Why didn't Manning exploit, or better yet.....why, after facing the same types of defenses (3-4 defense with an array of different blitzing), did he not win at least one of these matches? I seriously see this guy look like a deer caught on head lights........it's like he forgets he's Peyton Manning, that he's that guy that sets up records, watches the most film probably of any QB in history, no QB knows the game like him.... If what the Colts were going through was happening here exactly as it is in Indy......I'd be getting frustrated. I, personally, don't want just personal milestones set.......I want a friggin championship for my city!! I'd feel like hey....this guy has everything a QB could want and more......now he needs to come through.

All in all, Carr does nothing when the pressure is on him........same with Manning. We see this happening all season for Carr because of the coaching staff, O-line, bad play chosen, busted play, or what have you...Carr doesn't perform well, with good reason................not even Manning can, as we've seen when PM is pressured, predominantly against 3-4 defenses, and....on top of that, 3-4 defenses in the post-season when the "game" is cranked up to full steam.

I'm in no way saying Carr is anything like Manning outside of this one category. I don't think Carr's a bust.....but I do think that more remains to be seen. I'll repeat, but under similar conditions, when defenders are in his face or when blitzing is coming in and "he knows how to read defenses", why is it that Manning hasn't been able to get that bug off his back, counter these defenses, exploit where they're susceptible, and make those defenses back off? I wouldn't personally go as far as saying "he knows how to read defenses", he's good at it.....yes, I'd agree, but until he counters those defenses effectively, taking advantage of the weapons he has on his offense........until he does this......he's no better than Carr, IN THIS RESPECT!!!!! And I agree....Carr sucks at this as well. This in no way praises Carr....for the record.

 

[michaelm]

Great argument....

Great argument....

 

[HoustonFrog]

Finally....we agree on something!!

Ok, we are done then. Fun times.

 

[Vinny]

This thread is funny. People dog Young because in his "rotten game", his offense puts up 40 points...so he can't be as good as Carr. Manning throws for 300 yards while in his "rotten game" and Carr is the same qb as Manning since Carr did it one time too. Carr does both of these in a blue moon....but they are his "great games" while they are "rotten games" from these guys....ok, right.

 

[jerek]

And the point of the thread, although overstated, was Manning (the pretty much undisputed best QB in the game right now) locks onto people and misses the "smart" read when consistantly pressured as well. There were two blatant examples of locking on in his last two pass attempts in the game.



The idea that Banks should get any credit for the Atlanta game is pretty laughable. He exited with the Texans down 7 to 3 under his leadership. When Carr walked onto the field to replace him Reliant was electric. The Texans then opened the 2nd half with two drives for TD's--the 1st almost solely on the back of a 36 yd run by DC on 3rd and 5. Obvious leadership has been too rare for Carr, but he had it that day.

I sure am looking forward to next year when everyone who is so sure that every player has shown their full potential under the now fired regime is surprised by the talent on the team.

Amen to every last word in this post.

 

[SBTexans08]

This thread is funny. People dog Young because in his "rotten game", his offense puts up 40 points...so he can't be as good as Carr. Manning throws for 300 yards while in his "rotten game" and Carr is the same qb as Manning since Carr did it one time too. Carr does both of these in a blue moon....but they are his "great games" while they are "rotten games" from these guys....ok, right.

With all due respect, I think you should use the quote button cause I never implied the above and neither did most in this thread...

 

[Vinny]

With all due respect, I think you should use the quote button cause I never implied the above and neither did most in this thread...

I can make a comment if I please...and I don't need to quote anyone to do it.

 

[infantrycak]

One, stop saying I have an agenda. You are full of it. Just because someone isn't kissing the QBs rear doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe I can just look outside of all of the excuses and form my own opinion. If you ever read my stuff I am NOT a VY drafter either so step back with your assumptions. I DID hear the interview in its entirety and if you listen as much as you just say you would have heard somethign about it considering that it was all they talked about that day. I'll write 610 and find the information.

The only conversation I have heard from McKinney coming even close to what you are talking about is one where he was asked about leadership and his response was he didn't think an offense needs a fiery/obvious leader (And let's see, McKinney has been on OL's for 4 years each under...Manning and Carr.) and that defenses play much more from emotion and need leadership more. I am not sure I agree with that, but in any event that was a McKinney statement. If that is what is now being reported as McKinney says Carr isn't a leader then I'd say the reporter has an agenda. I have also listened to McKinney enough to know a direct statement like you are asserting would be incredibly out of character.

As for assumptions, you need to take a step back--I never said anything about VY. The agenda I was speaking of was an anti-Carr agenda. Just another example of someone at either extreme of an argument (yes both pro and anti Carr people are guilty) who isn't happy with the facts as they are needing to justify their position by tweaking them beyond reality.

 

[Texan Gal 312]

.

All in all, Carr does nothing when the pressure is on him........same with Manning. .

Agree with the post, but one more time will point out that teams rushed 4 against Carr with 7 blockers and often times somebody came completely free. Thus my hope that it wasn't physical failures of the offensive line but the lack of ability to work as a unit (bad coaching philosophy). Simple math tells you that this leaves 7 people covering 3 people. I guess that could make you look like you can't read a defense.
Most of the pressure on Manning came from multiple blitzers.

 

[HoustonFrog]

The only conversation I have heard from McKinney coming even close to what you are talking about is one where he was asked about leadership and his response was he didn't think an offense needs a fiery/obvious leader (And let's see, McKinney has been on OL's for 4 years each under...Manning and Carr.) and that defenses play much more from emotion and need leadership more. I am not sure I agree with that, but in any event that was a McKinney statement. If that is what is now being reported as McKinney says Carr isn't a leader then I'd say the reporter has an agenda. I have also listened to McKinney enough to know a direct statement like you are asserting would be incredibly out of character.

As for assumptions, you need to take a step back--I never said anything about VY. The agenda I was speaking of was an anti-Carr agenda. Just another example of someone at either extreme of an argument (yes both pro and anti Carr people are guilty) who isn't happy with the facts as they are needing to justify their position by tweaking them beyond reality.

It isn't an Anti-Carr agenda. It is an anti-Carr excuse agenda that has become an epidemic around here. There must be 1000 excuses and counting and it has gotten to the point where he seems to be the only person "clean" according to some. I posted my position on this a page back and will stand by it. It isn't too harsh. I'm not trying to twist beyond reality but am trying to take the information that I hear and trying to draw a conclusion from that. I know many don't like our local beat writers but I found it quite ironic that the local "insider"(McClain) of sort had this in his column today. Seems to me that there are many other people that are closer to the team than we are that have come to my same conclusion

"Kubiak is a former quarterback who coaches quarterbacks. He knows that analyzing a quarterback takes so much more than simply watching tapes of games and practices.

Kubiak has to find out what Carr is made of - if Carr is willing to pay the price off the field as he is on the field. Can Carr be consumed with becoming one of the NFL's best - a process that requires 24/7 dedication during the season and something close to it in the offseason.

Kubiak has to decide if Carr can become a dynamic team leader - a trait he hasn't developed in his first four seasons."

 

[SBTexans08]

Agree with the post, but one more time will point out that teams rushed 4 against Carr with 7 blockers and often times somebody came completely free. Thus my hope that it wasn't physical failures of the offensive line but the lack of ability to work as a unit (bad coaching philosophy). Simple math tells you that this leaves 7 people covering 3 people. I guess that could make you look like you can't read a defense.
Most of the pressure on Manning came from multiple blitzers.

I agree...lol. And those blitzes leave holes in the D making it easier to make a strike and hit an offense target, albeit the heavy pressure coming on......

I'd add more to it but I'll refrain. Good post though.

 

[run-david-run]

I am not surpised if DD did as well, just surprised how a journeyman can put up the most amount of W's in a 5 game stretch with the worst coaching, GM, no TE, no 2nd WR and a Fangio led defense. This I would argue was the most competitive our franchise has been in our existence. Is it possible that Carr is that good and everyone recognized that they would have to play harder to subsidize the loss? That would be a plausible arguement, but one I would not push.

Keep in mind this was Carr's second year...he had just come off the 72 sack season, hell Peyton Manning was something like 3-13 in his first season...

 

[run-david-run]

This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"

Hmmm, maybe its something to do with the incredible supporting cast Manning has.... he has a great line and has the ability, if he sees blitz, to audible, unlike Carr. Plus, when was the last time you saw Marvin Harrison run the wrong route? When was the last time Reggie Wayne consitently droped passes?

 

[Shaunny66]

I how there different....They have different hair color and they both have different last names....

 

[Double Barrel]

At first glance, this question (Manning vs. Carr) seems ludicrious.

But there are some valid points in this thread. When defenses can penetrate the Colts' o-line, Manning does seem to fall much quicker than you would think.

He is still an awesome QB, and light years ahead of Carr right now. But I do wonder how Carr would fair behind Indy's offense, and, by the same token, how Manning would have faired behind the Texans offense the past four years.

Good food for thought...carry on.

 

[AcresHomesTexan]

At first glance, this question (Manning vs. Carr) seems ludicrious.

But there are some valid points in this thread. When defenses can penetrate the Colts' o-line, Manning does seem to fall much quicker than you would think.

He is still an awesome QB, and light years ahead of Carr right now. But I do wonder how Carr would fair behind Indy's offense, and, by the same token, how Manning would have faired behind the Texans offense the past four years.

Good food for thought...carry on.

The basic premise that ANY QB needs at least average to good protection to be successful is sound. Where many of the arguments break down is the assumption that a better QB would NOT perform differently with similar surroundings. The idea that Manning or (insert favorite QB) would have, as some of the posters imply, led this team to a 2-14 record with poor offense production is silly. The argument nearly becomes that all QBs are the same and the surrounding casts are all that matter.