What's the difference between Carr and P. Manning?

[Kaiser Toro]

No....we are comparing how one "great QB" versus a "poor-excuse of a QB" does when they are being pressured.

Manning has lost games in the regular season to the Patriots, Chargers, Jaguars and other teams. The thing is that he stinks when teams come at him. How does Carr fare when teams come at him, imposing pressure on him with very limited time to make throws? He stinks! Same as Manning.

Then please explain to me how Tony Banks wins 3 out of 4 games under the same conditions when you remove one variable, the QB?

 

[The Preacher]

Because Manning's line almost always does it's job and those 4 games are when they faced their toughest challenges and failed. It's really not hard to understand. The fact is that on those rare occasions that Manning's line fails, HE SUCKS, just like every other QB. When Carr gets protection, which is very rare, he does very well. Big surprise.

Right on jam it's pretty simple. No blocking=offensive quagmire. What is this argument all about anyway? Oh yeah draft linemen, maybe the first day, maybe even the first round if you want a real good one. Until Carr has time no one will know if he can ever be great.

 

[SBTexans08]

So 4 games in his career vs, 4 full years for Carr?3 of those games against the eventual SB winner. .

If my memory serves me correctly.......in the 2003 season when the Pats came here to Houston 2/3s down the season......the Texans with Carr at the helm took the Pats into overtime and the Pats just barely won with a field goal by Viniaterri.

Carr gave the Pats a lot harder time than Manning did that year in the post-season, the eventual Super Bowl winner. LMFAO!!!

Hey....you bobbed and weaved this one too.

 

[HJam72]

Then please explain to me how Tony Banks wins 3 out of 4 games under the same conditions when you remove one variable, the QB?

When and against who? Not denying it, just need more details.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

When and against who? Not denying it, just need more details.

I stand corrected, typing error, the Texans won 3 out of 5 starts that Banks started:
Beat Carolina 14-10, eventual NFC Champ that year
Lost @ Cincinnati 27-34, who finished 8-8 in Lewis' first year.
Won @ Buffalo, 12-10
Lost to the Patriots 23-20, eventual Super Bowl Champ
Beat Atlanta 17-13, Banks was injured in the 3rd quarter to my recollection and Dom Davis took over with Carr at the helm.

 

[HJam72]

All 3 wins were low scoring affairs. It looks like the defense came through to me and I wouldn't be surprised if DD had a lot to do with the offense. Granted, Carr isn't known for high scoring games either.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Hey....you bobbed and weaved this one too.

You are losing it!!I have not bobbed and weaved. I have watched you avoid every conceivable stat and fact out there to taunt because you have a Carr crush. So we almost beat the SB team in the regular season. Do you think we were one of the games they circled on their calender? lol. We still LOST. How can a regular season game against the Texans be compared to an AFC playoff game?Seriously, do you watch football?Why can't you answer the Tony Banks question, the questions that have been presented by HOF QBs when critiquing him, etc. You sat there and went off on a tangent about how the Steelers gave him the game and he did nothing with it and then avoided the point completely that he got them into FG range and the KICKER missed it.

Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?

LOL..thanks Kaiser, now we know that Carr didn't even complete or play in the above NE game in the regular season..no wonder we almost won..lol

 

[Kaiser Toro]

All 3 wins were low scoring affairs. It looks like the defense came through to me and I wouldn't be surprised if DD had a lot to do with the offense.

I am not surpised if DD did as well, just surprised how a journeyman can put up the most amount of W's in a 5 game stretch with the worst coaching, GM, no TE, no 2nd WR and a Fangio led defense. This I would argue was the most competitive our franchise has been in our existence. Is it possible that Carr is that good and everyone recognized that they would have to play harder to subsidize the loss? That would be a plausible arguement, but one I would not push.

 

[HJam72]

Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.

 

[MorKnolle]

Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes.

Zone blocking has nothing to do with pass protection, in fact all pass protection is basically zone blocking. What screwed it up is playing people like Victor Riley and Todd Wade as our OTs and then implementing some nancy offensive system that is extra predictable and never stretches the field so opposing defenses can load people in the box and blitz with a ton of guys or just provide ample pressure with 3-4 man rushes.

 

[Fiddy]

Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

 

[HoustonFrog]

Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.

Hey I am all in agreement that the O-line blows but as the Banks reference shows, other guys still got the job done in some cases. I just think that there are so many more variables, listed above, that go into playing QB and you can't really just stick guys in different places and say they are the same. Some guys handle situations differently and learn on a different scale. It is in no way all his fault but he does have to shoulder some of the criticism and blame.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

Believe me I tried these too!!lol.

 

[ComstockLode]

Nothing. When they have the defense in their face, the line's broken down....they're no different. We've seen this in the playoffs every year with Manning and we see it far too regularly during the Texans' season with Carr.

Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

 

[MorKnolle]

Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.

 

[El Tejano]

The difference between Carr and Manning is Manning gets all the benefits on replays and Carr gets a turnover off replays *cough* Cincinnati game* cough*

 

[run-david-run]

I did and again it made no sense and went in 10 directions. You have no answer for statistics or any facts I brought out. Same as you accused others of doing above. You can't make the argument at all. You are now personally attacking me instead of the facts!!You have not made one relevant point. To be an NFL QB, you need more than just an O-line. You need to study, you need to work with your teammates. You need to make it to the playoffs. I saw Steve Young get his head handed to him against the Cowboys in an NFC title game and he lost 3 times before winning the SB. So did that make him a loser that was the same as Carr?No, it meant that his team had a bad day. He still was a winner who could lead and get his team to a point where they could, AS A TEAM, compete. Carr has neither shown the leadership, the extra work or any of these qualities, even in defeat.

You must be the only person misunderstanding his argument, because from where I am sitting, it is very valid. He first says that Manning is a great Qb in the regular season when he has protection. Heck, look at the first time the Colts and Steelers played, Manning had time, Colts won. Same with when they played the Pats this year, unlike the previous seasons, Manning had time, Colts score 40. However, when defenses are good enough to pressure him in the playoffs, the same situation Carr is in during the entire season, he puts up very mediocre numbers. Keep in mind he should have been picked, meaning the TD would never have happened and he would have a lot fewer yards. The Colts were also playing from behind the entire game, meaning he had to throw the ball a lot.

IN conclusion, protection is key, when Carr has it, he has shown he can be very, very good, when he does not, he looks very, very bad. Its not that hard to figure it out...but of course, O-linemen dont make SportsCenter's top plays...

 

[SBTexans08]

Difference between Carr and Manning: Manning get's sacked because of poor o-line play, Carr gets sacked because he has 0 pocket presence.

Also, Manning doesnt lock onto his RB and number 1 WR.

Also, Manning can read a defense.

I could go one, but this list would get out of hand...

Overall, maybe.

But....when guys are in his face or coming his way....he's no different.

Fact is....locking on his RB or number one WR was his set back when going defenses that knocked him out of the playoffs.

He can read defenses.....yet it's strange how he was knocked out by a defense even though he read it. What good does it do you to read it, yet not know how to counter it? Hell....I can read a defense too....but I ssure as hell couldn't counter it.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.

Can you please take your well thought logic and unemotional takes back to the draft forum.

 

[SBTexans08]

You must be the only person misunderstanding his argument, because from where I am sitting, it is very valid. He first says that Manning is a great Qb in the regular season when he has protection. Heck, look at the first time the Colts and Steelers played, Manning had time, Colts won. Same with when they played the Pats this year, unlike the previous seasons, Manning had time, Colts score 40. However, when defenses are good enough to pressure him in the playoffs, the same situation Carr is in during the entire season, he puts up very mediocre numbers. Keep in mind he should have been picked, meaning the TD would never have happened and he would have a lot fewer yards. The Colts were also playing from behind the entire game, meaning he had to throw the ball a lot.

IN conclusion, protection is key, when Carr has it, he has shown he can be very, very good, when he does not, he looks very, very bad. Its not that hard to figure it out...but of course, O-linemen dont make SportsCenter's top plays...

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.......WE....HAVE A WINNER!!

 

[SBTexans08]

Is this a joke?

How about Manning does this vs great playoff teams or superbowl champions.

Carr vs Browns....

And didnt manning still almost throw for 300 yards yesterday? Isnt that like Carr's best game this season?

Did Carr have protection?

 

[Fiddy]

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

You have that in reverse. 80% of the time Carr has a pocket but doesnt step up but instead of stepping up in the pocket, he goes outside the pocket to get sacked because his O-lineman have no idea where he is on the field. At the first sign of pressure, instead of stepping up, he scrambles outside the pocket and once you get outside the pocket, you put yourself in trouble.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding.......WE....HAVE A WINNER!!

This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"

 

[SBTexans08]

Manning got sacked less than 20 times a year the last couple seasons, David's averaged over 50. Some of those are David's fault but you can't tell me he accounts for 30 of those and that Peyton would only get sacked 20 times a year here.

80% of the time Carr has no pocket to stand in anyways.

Carr's only real receiving option is Andre, we ran max protect a lot this year so it was either Andre Johnson, butterfingers Bradford, or check down to Domanick Davis as his only passing options, so what would you do in that situation? Manning has Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and Dallas Clark as options, then Edge.

Manning is better at reading defenses than Carr, there's not any way to argue that.

I'm not saying David Carr is as good of a QB as Manning, but he also does not have anywhere near the talent around him to do so either and I'd say a good portion of his deficiencies are due to poor coaching and lack of surrounding talent, not just him.

Attaboy!!

 

[MorKnolle]

You have that in reverse. 80% of the time Carr has a pocket but doesnt step up but instead of stepping up in the pocket, he goes outside the pocket to get sacked because his O-lineman have no idea where he is on the field. At the first sign of pressure, instead of stepping up, he scrambles outside the pocket and once you get outside the pocket, you put yourself in trouble.

There are definitely times that Carr abandons the pocket prematurely, but most of the time Riley and/or Wade were quickly letting people get right around them or else McKinney or Milford Brown were letting people blitz right up the middle while they stared at each other dumbfounded. Either way, when Carr does have somewhat of a pocket, it's usually only maybe 5-8 yards wide and quickly being pushed in on him while other QBs have much bigger pockets that are sustained for a longer period of time. Carr's confidence in his line had clearly been shaken this year, but we also had a ridiculous offense that we were running in which, at best, 1 guy had a chance of getting open for a decent play, and half the time AJ was used as a diversion and it was Bradford that needed to make a play, and as I'm sure you saw throughout the year Bradford seldom caught anything. It was a combination of some bad decisions on Carr's part, some horrible OLine play, poor coaching for everyone on the offense, horrible playcalling, and lack of a sufficient #2 passing threat. Hopefully the majority of those will be fixed this offseason so Carr can once again have a productive year.

 

[JohnGalt]

Every team doesn't just blitz Indy because they'd fail. His line is good. In our second year, we had the best pass protection we've ever had. That was before we screwed up our blocking schemes, before Wand played LT, and before Pendry took over the offense.

I'm not entirely convinced that Wand and Pitts were the biggest problem concerning sacks. We're all familiar with the way a passing pocket is shaped. If the overpaid players on the right collapse, Carr will naturally bail out to his left, right into the DE's (Read: Freeney) pass rush.

And the reason Carr still hasn't thrown the ball is the unimaginative play that's called doesn't give him a open receiver. They let Carr call the plays in that half against Arizona and he lit up the scoreboard. Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

 

[SBTexans08]

This was completely answered and ignored, per usual, by me on Page 3

"Lets just take the most simple of your premises. That when under pressure both Carr and Manning act just alike. AGAIN, why doesn't every team just blitz Indy then?When they have, why does Manning still win?If you cop out and say his team is better then you are missing the point and avoiding the reality. An O-line can't make a bad QB a SB winner. The variables include leadership, pocket presence, awareness of the field, reading defenses, getting rid of the ball, looking off receivers...etc. Not once have you been able to show where Carr possesses any of these things compared to a Manning. Thus your argument is null and void because you can't just play pretend and make an average QB a superstar because you pull out 4-5 random games in a career. If that was the case we could compare players all day long. Timmy Smith had 204 yards in the SB so he must be as good as Emmitt Smith who also won a SB MVP. See the problem there?"

And where has the bold come into play positively for Manning and the Colts in the post season???

Damnit....how do you think they feel about Manning after his lackluster performances against D's that actually do their job in putting pressure on him. I mean....damn, they made "No-Fumble Bettis" fumble the ball, ran it back at a good spot, not the best....but a good spot and Manning still can't take these guys to the next level. How do you think the owner and manager feel after giving him all the weapons and a very good O-line, hell....even a defense this year, keeping the game in winnable position for 'em and he still buckles and gets spooked when guys come after him?

 

[SBTexans08]

Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

Actually coached him, actually gave him confidence in that the offense would hold it down for him for at least 3, tops 4 seconds, if he was given a tight end, shows him audibles outside of running it down the middle, the list goes on.

 

[HoustonFrog]

And where did the bold come into play positively for Manning and the Colts???

Damnit....how do you think they feel about Manning after his lackluster performances against D's that actually do their job in putting pressure on him. I mean....damn, they made "No-Fumble Bettis" fumble the ball, ran it back at a good spot, not the best....but a good spot and Manning still can't take these guys to the next level. How do you think the owner and manager feel after giving him all the weapons and a very good O-line, hell....even a defense this year, keeping the game in winnable position for 'em and he still buckles and gets spooked when guys come after him?

I'm still lost. You really make no sense at all. You have reeled off 5 games out of a guys career and now you are saying that he has never handled pressure well. Why don't you write this post to ESPN or any pro scout and see what they think of this logic. Also, they get the ball back and time is running out. They only have so many time outs. He gets them down to the 26 yard line and sets up a kick for allegedly the most accurate 4th quarter kicker in history. Can you explain how this was not giving his team a chance to win and why the kicker is his fault? So the defemse you talked about..you mean the one that gave up 21 pts and two 6 minute drives in the 4th quarter?So you are putting the WHOLE game on HIS shoulder but when it comes to CARR it is ALL of the other guys fault. I get it. Makes tons of sense. Stop going in circles bro, you really made no sense here. Also can you still explain how Banks won 3 of 5 with the same line and actually was the leader in that NE game you tried throwing in my face?will you ignore this again?

 

[HJam72]

I'm not entirely convinced that Wand and Pitts were the biggest problem concerning sacks. We're all familiar with the way a passing pocket is shaped. If the overpaid players on the right collapse, Carr will naturally bail out to his left, right into the DE's (Read: Freeney) pass rush.

And the reason Carr still hasn't thrown the ball is the unimaginative play that's called doesn't give him a open receiver. They let Carr call the plays in that half against Arizona and he lit up the scoreboard. Can you imagine what would happen if he had a good OC giving him direction.

All good points and a lot of Wand's problem was probably McKinney getting blown up at center also. I still think Wand was part of the problem though. He was not ready to play LT at the time and I'd rather not see him there until he proves (if ever) that he is a stud RT. Actually, I'd rather just get D. Ferguson and not worry about Wand.

 

[SBTexans08]

I'm still lost. You really make no sense at all. You have reeled off 5 games out of a guys career and now you are saying that he has never handled pressure well. Why don't you write this post to ESPN or any pro scout and see what they think of this logic. Also, they get the ball back and time is running out. They only have so many time outs. He gets them down to the 26 yard line and sets up a kick for the allegedly the most accurate 4th quarter kicker in history. Can you explain how this was not giving his team a chance to win and why the kicker is his fault? So the defemse you talked about..you mean the one that gave up 21 pts and two 6 minute drives in the 4th quarter?So you are puttin gthe whole game on his shoulder but when it comes to CARR it is ALL of the other guys fault. I get it. Makes tons of sense. Stop going in circles bro, you really made no sense here. Also can you still explain how Banks won 3 of 5 with the same line and actually was the leader in that NE game you tried throwing in my face?will you ignore this again?

LOL....and the final gift of a drive was the only time he stepped on the field right? He didn't get them there.........whoever induced the fumble along with Harper did or did you forget?

About the New England game...lol....even worse....a backup put up a better battle than the record setting Manning. Not scoring a single TD on their third meeting. You'd think Manning would have their number by then but nope...he got worse. This year, sure Manning finally got a win against them.....but when the Pats were being beat like a step child by the league because of injuries. I know....it's a team game and he beat them and that's the point. Thing is....this still doesn't do any good cause he wasn't pressured, tested per se to react with success when pressure was on him.

 

[SBTexans08]

And another thing.....you said something about me posting this on ESPN.com.... Well...I'll have you know that they have been tearing up Manning, criticizing his game and that he can go 16-0 and it still won't be anything out of this world. Major yawnage! Until he proves himself in the playoffs, that he can counter when the pressure is on......then he'll get the praise the media's been dying to give him. Can you win the big game Peyton? Can you do something when the heat is on? Can you react when pressure is put on you? Can you come out victorious finally when your tested without your precious protection? You have unbelievable weapons............you put up records........it's there.....do what you're supposed to do!

 

[HoustonFrog]

LOL....and the final gift of a drive was the only time he stepped on the field right? He didn't get them there.........whoever induced the fumble along with Harper did or did you forget?

About the New England game...lol....even worse....a backup put up a better battle than the record setting Manning. Not scoring a single TD on their third meeting. You'd think Manning would have their number by then but nope...he got worse. This year, sure Manning finally got a win against them.....but when the Pats were being beat like a step child by the league because of injuries. I know....it's a team game and he beat them and that's the point. Thing is....this still doesn't do any good cause he wasn't pressured, tested per se to react with success when pressure was on him.

Harper didn't get them to the 26. He got them to their own 43 or something. Manning did the rest..his job after being hit all day and gave his team a chance to win. You said he failed them. How did he fail here? This goes back two pages. Since when has Carr taken his beating, still thrown for 290 and then gotten them the chance to win?Not every game goes as scripted. AGAIN, do you want to pull out all the games where Young, Aikman, Favre, etc played bad in the playoffs?They are there. I watched them. That doesn't make their playoff struggles the same as a guys regular season.

No, it proves nothing because your comparison was CARR v. MANNING. It shows that with the same line a backup can go 3-2 and still beat almost beat a good team. Regular season v. Texans is not the same as playoff time vs. a dynasty. Favre had to do it against Dallas and Young. Elway got punked a few times himself before getting it. It doesn't make them any less. Your comparison was that because they perform the same when they got sacked alot, then Carr can be that guy without taking into account any variables that it takes to be a QB.

 

[JohnGalt]

All good points and a lot of Wand's problem was probably McKinney getting blown up at center also. I still think Wand was part of the problem though. He was not ready to play LT at the time and I'd rather not see him there until he proves (if ever) that he is a stud RT. Actually, I'd rather just get D. Ferguson and not worry about Wand.

I think Wand is the answer at RT, (I'm going to get flamed for this) maybe even at LT. I'm still purplexed how that fat slob Riley got the starts this year. Wand struggled, but not like that. Hopefully he'll still be bitter about this year's benching and take it out on the DE's next year.

 

[SBTexans08]

No, it proves nothing because your comparison was CARR v. MANNING. It shows that with the same line a backup can go 3-2 and still beat almost beat a good team. Regular season v. Texans is not the same as playoff time vs. a dynasty. Favre had to do it against Dallas and Young. Elway got punked a few times himself before getting it. It doesn't make them less.

Are the Chargers a dynasty? They didn't make the playoffs yet they beat the Colts and harrassed Manning with the Colts having no injuries. He had his O-line, his fabulous WRs, his TEs, his defense, his RB. How did he read the defense and counter it successfully?

You don't get it man. When teams that did a good job of homing in on him, applying pressure........Manning buckles.

The question is.........when the line does what it can, can he do what's left to beat the D with his head and arm? It's without a question NO! An emphatic NO! His WRs were there....all his team mates. It's like...."C'mon Peyton....you da man.....we're here for ya....show us that no matter what they throw at us Peyton....you're gonna at least win the game....at least that cause you should like embarass these guys. Everything isn't all gravy for you right now....they're applying some pressure.....show us that you can have success in it. C'mon Peyton...I make the catches for you. C'mon...we've supplied you with players....can you do the rest when push comes to shove."

Again...he's let people down. And the Chargers aren't a dynasty....but they did apply pressure. What was the result?

 

[HoustonFrog]

Are the Chargers a dynasty? They didn't make the playoffs yet they beat the Colts and harrassed Manning with the Colts having no injuries. He had his O-line, his fabulous WRs, his TEs, his defense, his RB. How did he read the defense and counter it successfully?

You don't get it man. When teams that did a good job of homing in on him, applying pressure........Manning buckles.

The question is.........when the line does what it can, can he do what's left to beat the D with his head and arm? It's without a question NO! An emphatic NO! His WRs were there....all his team mates. It's like...."C'mon Peyton....you da man.....we're here for ya....show us that no matter what they throw at us Peyton....you're gonna at least win the game....at least that cause you should like embarass these guys. Everything isn't all gravy for you right now....they're applying some pressure.....show us that you can have success in it. C'mon Peyton...I make the catches for you. C'mon...we've supplied you with players....can you do the rest when push comes to shove."

Again...he's let people down. And the Chargers aren't a dynasty....but they did apply pressure. What was the result?

I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty. So now you are saying that the Colts aren't allowed to lose against anyone and if they do it is because Manning can't handle the heat and that if a team has a good game plan then anyone can put pressure on Manning and they will lose?I have refuted this and so has the Colts record but when I do that you switch and say that teams can't blitz all the time and put pressure because the line is much better in the regular season. So which is it?The QB, the line, the team, playoffs. regular season. You are all over the board. So the defense, the kicker, the receivers that dropped balls, etc played no part and they were just waiting for him?What about the O-cordinator who only called Edges number 13 times?Was that his fault? What about the 681 yards, eight TDs, no interceptions in the two playoff games before the Pats game the lost?Why didn't he fold then? I mean Favre, Aikman, Young, Marino, Fouts all had bad playoff games and conference championship games. Does that make all ogf them chokers and losers at some point?You are grasping at straws. You went from comparing two guys who allegedly reacted the same when pressured in the pocket and you haev only used 5 games, 4 with the teams season on the the line for one guy and then used a regular season full of losses for another. It doesn't work no matter how hard you try.

 

[SBTexans08]

He couldn't adjust when the time came down to him to show his real skills. He's buckled time and time again. When the pressure was on.....he threw and INT. The game was on his shoulders.....it couldn't be on anyone elses....he's the face of that team. He was graced by who knows what and was lucky to get a TD. Then....by the grace of who knows what again....he can't win it for them. Nope....he had to rely on Vandejagt when the team was relying on HIM. Once again....this is no different than all his playoff campaigns. Same story every year...

 

[SBTexans08]

I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty.

So there you have it. All that's going on here is that you don't want to accept or even the slightest consider what I'm saying.

And my logic is really that incomprehensible? You really don't get it one bit? You just don't agree with it, but it's no way-no how incomprehensible....c'mon now...

 

[SBTexans08]

I really don't get your logic. Seriously, it is frustrating. No they aren't a dynasty. So now you are saying that the Colts aren't allowed to lose against anyone and if they do it is because Manning can't handle the heat and that if a team has a good game plan then anyone can put pressure on Manning and they will lose?

It's too consistent and apparent that he can't handle, can't counter, can't function when he's tried strongly regardless of it being a dynasty, playoffs, whatever else you'd like to throw in... If pressure is put on him, having no injuries on his team, even to the point of having home-field advantage, his cryptonite is pressure. When harrassed....the best he can do is be AVERAGE...

 

[Kaiser Toro]

He couldn't adjust when the time came down to him to show his real skills. He's buckled time and time again. When the pressure was on.....he threw and INT. The game was on his shoulders.....it couldn't be on anyone elses....he's the face of that team. He was graced by who knows what and was lucky to get a TD. Then....by the grace of who knows what again....he can't win it for them. Nope....he had to rely on Vandejagt when the team was relying on HIM. Once again....this is no different than all his playoff campaigns. Same story every year...

You have sold me, I do not want Carr or Manning.

 

[bigTEXan8]

Manning is miles ahead of Carr. Manning was also brought up under good coaches, good surrounding cast, and a good owner. Also, Manning has a video room in is own house. Carr has the capability of being a good QB, but I doubt Carr will ever get to Manning's plateau in the QB aspect. And I am a big Carr fan. I just think that happy face is cool.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Manning is miles ahead of Carr. Manning was also brought up under good coaches, good surrounding cast, and a good owner. Also, Manning has a video room in is own house. Carr has the capability of being a good QB, but I doubt Carr will ever get to Manning's plateau in the QB aspect. And I am a big Carr fan. I just think that happy face is cool.

Right!I'm tired because it is hard to comprehend my new batches of Manning posts that don't address anything.

 

[bigTEXan8]

Right!I'm tired because it is hard to comprehend my new batches of Manning posts that don't address anything.

I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, or are you just angry in general. I'm cool with either.

 

[HoustonFrog]

It's too consistent and apparent that he can't handle, can't counter, can't function when he's tried strongly regardless of it being a dynasty, playoffs, whatever else you'd like to throw in... If pressure is put on him, having no injuries on his team, even to the point of having home-field advantage, his cryptonite is pressure. When harrassed....the best he can do is be AVERAGE...

WOW!Three posts to get nothing out. Impressed. Well obviously he got something out under pressure because more stats were stated above that you ignored, just like ignoring that the other big time QBs all went though the EXACT same thing and that the QB has to have other variables..all that you swept under the rug. By the way, they weren't 100% in the San Diego game if you want to check. Corey Simon and Cato Jones had injuried and had to sit out on D. What about games like the JACKSONVILLE game this year. Right before the SD game. Sacked 3 times and pressured but still had 324 yards a 2 TDs. Surprised he didn't fold under your assumptions since it was for the division. Heck, the SD game he had 336 yards, TD and 2 picks. That would be a career Carr day. I also wanted to ask how he was supposed to do better in the last minute of the Pitt game with no time or timeouts? Is there magic dust for this..lol. You give it to the kicker. You can keep the charade up but all in all the intangibles add up to a guy who is still one of the best in the league vs someone who is overpaid and average. Since Marino never won a thing and didn't perform in some big games we will make Carr like him too.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I'm confused. Are you agreeing with me, or are you just angry in general. I'm cool with either.

Sorry completely agreeing. Not angry at anyone. Frustrated at the circular reasoning going on in here though.

 

[BuffSoldier]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?statsId=5887&year=2004
This is the link that will possibly end this stupid thread.

Look at the stats from the first 9 weeks of the 2004 season(the first a games). This is when the Texans offensive line was actually blocking worth a plug nickel, and before teams were consistently double covering Andre Johnson.

Carr had 2162 yards and second in the AFC in passing yards only to Manning. He was on pace to have over 4300 yards that year. He had 9 TD's even though he had no receiving TE and no prominent #2 receiver. He was averaging 270.25 yards per game with a 64% completion rating and an average 94.2 passer rating. He did all this and de was still sacked 20 times.


Now I am not saying that Carr is better than Manning, but I am saying that when Carr has at least average protection and some targets, he can more than get the job done.

So lets see... Carr with no protection sucks. Mannign with no protection sucks. Yes, I said he sucks and to you Houston Frog, Manning has one of the best offensive lines in the league,IMO the most underatted RB in the league,the best WR threesome in the league, a great TE, and the freedom to basically be his own offensive coordinator, and he still has less than stellar games when he is under pressure.

When Carr has protection, he plays extremely well, check out the stats, even without a good #2 receiver, starting TE, and an offensive line that couldnt hold water. When Manning has protection he plays extraordinary.

I see the simularities, and if you disagree, at this point you are just being stubborn,or trying to make the Texans message board a spelling bee.

 

[Fiddy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?statsId=5887&year=2004
This is the link that will possibly end this stupid thread.

Look at the stats from the first 9 weeks of the 2004 season(the first a games). This is when the Texans offensive line was actually blocking worth a plug nickel, and before teams were consistently double covering Andre Johnson.

Carr had 2162 yards and second in the AFC in passing yards only to Manning. He was on pace to have over 4300 yards that year. He had 9 TD's even though he had no receiving TE and no prominent #2 receiver. He was averaging 270.25 yards per game with a 64% completion rating and an average 94.2 passer rating. He did all this and de was still sacked 20 times.

Love how you left out the 5 INTs. A 9:5 ratio isnt something to write home about.

Defensive Passing Rankings 2004:
SD: 31st
DET: 20nd
KC: 32nd
OAK: 30th
MIN: 29th
TEN: 26th
JAC: 16th
DEN: 6th

He had a below average game (245, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 53% completion) against the only good passing defense (Denver) and an average one against the average Jacksonville's 'D' (276, 1 TD, 0 INTs, 75% completion). However, he did tear up the bottom 4 passing defenses in the league. Congrats to David Carr. He can pass against total garbage defenses, must give him credit.

 

[SBTexans08]

Sorry completely agreeing. Not angry at anyone. Frustrated at the circular reasoning going on in here though.

You missed the point beginning in your first post. You're frustrated at you simply being argumentative.

 

[BuffSoldier]

Love how you left out the 5 INTs. A 9:5 ratio isnt something to write home about.

He had a below average game (245, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 53% completion) against the only good passing defense and an average one against the average Jacksonville (276, 1 TD, 0 INTs, 75% completion) 'D.' However, he did tear up the bottom 4 passing defenses in the league. Congrats to David Carr. He can pass against total garbage defenses, must give him credit.

Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1428Even though he had an at least decent o-line, Marvin Harrison, Edge all but his rookie year, and Marcus Pollard who,for a while was a very good receiving TE.

 

[Fiddy]

Okay he had 5 INTs. Which is about a 2:1 TD to INT ratio. Id take it when you have the NFLs worst offenive line and no #2 receiver or TE. Oh and a 2:1 TD to INT ratio is just about what Manning had his first 5 years in the NFL.

Too bad he never allowed a number 2 to develop. If Carr didnt lock onto AJ and Davis, Gaff could have developed into a nice number 2, IMO. I found it funny when AJ was out this year, Gaff stepped up when he was the first read and had some good games for our offenses standard. AJ comes back, Gaff rarely sees the bal anymore. It's hard to show that you are good when your RB gets more looks in the passing game than yourself.

Carr and Billy Miller had a nice on-the-field relationship (not saying Miller was a legit TE threat), but once again, hard to prove you have a TE threat when you never throw him the ball.

One of the biggest knocks on Carr since he came out: He locks onto receivers. It doesnt matter if he did have a number 2 or a TE, if the player is not the first read or the dump down option, he isnt going to get many looks.