What would it take to get you to trade Carr?

[jerek]

I would only count the sacks where Carr ran into a defender, out of bounds behind the LOS, bad snaps, and intentional grounding on Carr. To me, a coverage sack would still fall to whoever couldn't hold their block.

Many of the Carr sacks were him running out of bounds behind the line for a loss of a couple. Contrast that loss to him getting dropped for 8-10 yards when a LB blows through the hole untouched.

For sure, Carr should throw the ball away before he runs out of bounds, but again understand the difference: not only in quantity of sack-fault, but in the average of the field-position implications.

And TK, I have been saying that since Day 1. So have guys like Vinny and Infantry, KT, and others, it's just that we reach a different conclusion. I say Carr hasn't lived up to expectations, but is if nothing else demonstrably resilient and has made good plays/showed promise. Still has upside, not damaged goods, best years ahead of him, and will flourish under Kubes. Others merely see the same problems and draw a different conclusion, which is fine: but for all of the "Carr homerism," your boy Vince has received equally baseless acclaim x10 (and by that, I mean, unrealistic acclaim: guaranteed future HOFer, multiple SB winner, bla bla etc etc before he even takes a snap.)

 

[Scott D]

I say this because of experience on my part.

I too would have agreed many years ago to get rid of Carr. Well, let's see now. He get's sacked, hurries the ball, runs out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage among other stuff. Yeah, let's can him. He's a worthless POS.

That was then, this is now. why did all of this happen? As far as I can see, it's a one man team. It takes everybody to get it right. Yes I do agree that Carr as well as other well known superstar QB's make mistakes but the other players are not giving Carr a chance to throw the ball which allows for interceptions and off target throws to occur.

Keep Carr for now and fix the areas around Carr.

Oh, if you do decide to replace Carr with another rookie, it could turn out to be the biggest mistake ever. Not saying rookies are bad, look at Ben of the Steelers. Why was that rookie QB so good? just look at the personnel around him. I bet you a $100.00 if that was Carr out there, he too could have won that game just as well.

 

[Frills]

Last year Capers and crew were coaching scared.

They wanted to play a conservative close game, let the D dominate and have the offense to maintain games versus taking them over. They wanted last years team to be similar to Baltimore when they won it all. They just cut all the vet leadership on the D in the previous offseason.

Look at the way Carr produced under Palmer in year 3, he struggles early and Palmer gets whacked. Pendry becomes O-Coord, pure genius, he couldn't coach the line worth a damn so we promote him. The coaches go into a shell, never taking risks with playcalling on both sides of the ball. The aggressive 3-4 dissappears.

Bottom line, the coaches were friggin horrible. Now we can start where year 3 left off, Carr has a coach again, and this time its one who can help him take the offense to the next level.

 

[thunderkyss]

Many of the Carr sacks were him running out of bounds behind the line for a loss of a couple. Contrast that loss to him getting dropped for 8-10 yards when a LB blows through the hole untouched.

For sure, Carr should throw the ball away before he runs out of bounds, but again understand the difference: not only in quantity of sack-fault, but in the average of the field-position implications.

my biggest beef about him running out of bounds with the ball, is that he shouldn't be making these kind of mistakes this far into his career..... If he isn't going to chunk it, when the sideline is his best option, then how is he ever going to know when he needs to chunk it from the pocket?? How many times has he taken a sack, instead of giving someone a chance to make a play....

And TK, I have been saying that since Day 1. So have guys like Vinny and Infantry, KT, and others, it's just that we reach a different conclusion. I say Carr hasn't lived up to expectations, but is if nothing else demonstrably resilient and has made good plays/showed promise. Still has upside, not damaged goods, best years ahead of him, and will flourish under Kubes. Others merely see the same problems and draw a different conclusion, which is fine: but for all of the "Carr homerism," your boy Vince has received equally baseless acclaim x10 (and by that, I mean, unrealistic acclaim: guaranteed future HOFer, multiple SB winner, bla bla etc etc before he even takes a snap.)

True enough..... those guys makes it harder to make a good argument for Vince..........

 

[Corrosion]

As far as Carr "Sacking Himself" .... I'd rather see him run out of bounds for a 2 yard loss than throwing a pick or getting blown up by a LB and fumbling ....Of course he could just throw the damn ball away .... But I think that he has lost confidence in many of those around him (his blockers in particular) and this has compounded his mistakes as well as the teams mistakes.

 

[Nighthawk]

This thread, back from the dead!

I add this caveat:

We'd better have a QB on board this year that people think is capable of replacing Carr if he goes belly up this time.

 

[thunderkyss]

That was then, this is now. why did all of this happen? As far as I can see, it's a one man team. It takes everybody to get it right. Yes I do agree that Carr as well as other well known superstar QB's make mistakes but the other players are not giving Carr a chance to throw the ball which allows for interceptions and off target throws to occur.

Keep Carr for now and fix the areas around Carr.

I don't think anyone has made an argument against Carr concerning any stat other than Sacks. I think most believe he will put up some major stats in the league, break a few records even. The worse thing we can say about Carr, is that he'll be a Drew Bledsoe like QB, which isn't really that bad.

 

[thunderkyss]

Way, way off topic:

Hindsight is always 20/20...But looking back its still a bit fuzzy

Speak of Mutually assured destruction............ Nice Story tell it to reader's Digest........

Feeling Paranoid
True Enemy or False friend

Bloodstains on my hands
and I don't know where I've been
Oh.... I'm in trouble
for the things.. I haven't got to yet
I'm chomp'n at the bit and my palms R get'n wet




Sweat'n Bullllllllleeeetttsss.........

I've been trying to figure where I heard that for so long now..... it finally came to me.



cool.

 

[thunderkyss]

This thread, back from the dead!

I add this caveat:

We'd better have a QB on board this year that people think is capable of replacing Carr if he goes belly up this time.

My thoughts exactly........ some folks have mentioned Kitna..... I used to be a fan, but I've lost interest...

 

[Corrosion]

Way, way off topic:




Speak of Mutually assured destruction............ Nice Story tell it to reader's Digest........

Feeling Paranoid
True Enemy or False friend

Bloodstains on my hands
and I don't know where I've been
Oh.... I'm in trouble
for the things.. I haven't got to yet
I'm chomp'n at the bit and my palms R get'n wet




Sweat'n Bullllllllleeeetttsss.........

I've been trying to figure where I heard that for so long now..... it finally came to me.



cool.

You got it ..... I feel its pretty relevant around here .

 

[texasguy346]

On the workable thing with Carr--my bet is he is always going to take some sacks that are his fault. He does not have the pocket presence Brady or Big Ben have. On the other hand, as you have made fun of, 8-12 of those 20 sacks are from running out of bounds at or behind (often recorded as a 0-2 yd loss) the LOS. Those can be coached and Carr already has a track record on that. 2002 you accurately pointed out that problem. 2003 and 2004 Carr was greatly improved in that regard. 2005 Carr regressed back to 2002 form on the issue.

I tend to agree with you on this point, and the improvement you mentioned from 2002 to the 2003 & 2004 seasons demonstrates that he can correct his mistakes. I'm of the mindset that if you fix the problem that's causing Carr to revert to those bad habits of running out of bounds behind the LOS, rushing through his read(s), etc. then you go a long ways in fixing some of the problems in his technique. Quite frankly I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to stay calm, cool, & collective in the pocket behind the Texans OLine. It's no secret that once you bang a QB up a little bit by applying pressure to him you can shake him off his game, and make him a little more weary. D-Coordinators sole purpose in life is to cause that sensation in a QB. Carr has played much of his career with that feeling being the norm instead of the seldom occurrence it is for most QBs.

While Carr certainly shares some of the blame, as pointed out by others, there is plenty to go around. I don't think I'd rank him up there with Rob Johnson (gag) type pocket awareness, but then again he's definately not in the same league as Tom Brady where awareness is concerned. I look to a veteran like Mark Brunell when I think of what Carr's potential awareness level could be behind an above average or decent OLine. Sure he'll make his share of mistakes from time to time, but more often than not he'll make the right decision.

 

[bigTEXan8]

While Carr certainly shares some of the blame, as pointed out by others, there is plenty to go around. I don't think I'd rank him up there with Rob Johnson (gag) type pocket awareness, but then again he's definately not in the same league as Tom Brady where awareness is concerned. I look to a veteran like Mark Brunell when I think of what Carr's potential awareness level could be behind an above average or decent OLine. Sure he'll make his share of mistakes from time to time, but more often than not he'll make the right decision.

He's not as bad as Rob Johnson, but he was heading on the same path. Hopefully, Kubiak can turn him around. And you are right, Carr doesn't have close to Brady's awareness, but awareness is built on confidence. Brady has confidence in his line because his line hasn't failed him like Carr's has. The scheme also. Brady has faith in the scheme that Bellichick has. Carr knew it the scheme sucked, but yet he tried to work within it. JM

 

[Joe Texan]

What would it take to get you to trade Carr?

a first this year

half of the eight

a second or third next year

and a promise that he will never come back round here looking for a job

 

[thegr8fan]

I don't think anyone has made an argument against Carr concerning any stat other than Sacks. I think most believe he will put up some major stats in the league, break a few records even.

there have been plenty of arguments made regarding Carr's other deficiency's. Lack of pocket awareness, lack of ability to feel a rusher, indecisive, happy feet, etc. All of them, IMO, are accurate and truthfull assessments of Carrs lack of progress in 4 full seasons of play. These are things that rookies are excused for and Vets simply aren't. Why Carr continues to be excused for his detrimental play is beyond me. But hey, the Owner likes him and he stays, so Kubiak is stuck with him, IMHO.

In the NFL you take the hand dealt you and make the best of it you can. Kubiak knows that and is going to deal with Carr as best he can. Heck we might actually see an entire game of nothing but running plays if Carr stinks it up bad enough, and he will.

I am all for the idea that we had better have a competant, at least, backup on the roster to replace him this season if Carr does not show marked and significant improvement over his last season's poor playing ability. I don't care who it is. I have no qualms of putting a rookie or even Ragone in to replace him. It isn't like I think either one could do any WORSE than Carr at this point in his career.

 

[thunderkyss]

there have been plenty of arguments made regarding Carr's other deficiency's. Lack of pocket awareness, lack of ability to feel a rusher, indecisive, happy feet, etc. All of them, IMO, are accurate and truthfull assessments of Carrs lack of progress in 4 full seasons of play. These are things that rookies are excused for and Vets simply aren't. Why Carr continues to be excused for his detrimental play is beyond me. But hey, the Owner likes him and he stays, so Kubiak is stuck with him, IMHO.

Hey,


I'm with you. I wrote that in response to someone justifying Carr's interceptions, and off target throws.... of course, blaming the offensive line. I'm saying, even the Carr haters, can see reasons for some of the things he does... interceptions, missing recievers, throwing behind, instead of ahead. None of those are the reasons we are critical of him, and uncomfortable with him & Tony Banks being our answer at QB. YOur post highlighted most of the faults we have with Carr. Whether he is on a better team, or a worse team, he shouldn't be makin these mistakes.

 

[thegr8fan]

sorry I mis-read that then thunder.

I am just waiting for Carr to have some kind of competition. My bet would be that if a legit competitor were to show up in camp, Carr would be hard pressed to keep his starting position. And at least we fans would know that should Carr get hurt, or simply tick off Kubiak enough with mistake after mistake, that there was some kind of a backup QB to step in and provide a
CHANCE to win a game.

 

[SESupergenius]

What would I take for Carr?

Well someone that I have confidence in to make this deal, and right now, we don't have that.

Everyone gets a clean slate with this new coaching staff, but not P-Buch, so far this coaching staff has said that Carr is the one. I'll take that considering they evaluated Plummer when he was with the Cards, a player very similar to Carr. To say that our offensive problems were on Carr makes me wonder about any validity in your arguments. It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

 

[AustinJB]

It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

Wow, Banks (a career back-up) couldn't do any better than our starter. I'll also say that he didn't play WORSE either (although he did have very limited PT.) What does THAT say about our starting QB? I'll give you a hint: it's not good.

I've said it in other posts and I'll say it again here. Even if we correct our Oline, Carr will always be the type of QB that consistently makes bad decisions which leads to unnecessary sacks...he doesn't have the poise that is necessary for a successful QB...JMO.

 

[TreWardTxn]

What would I take for Carr?

Well someone that I have confidence in to make this deal, and right now, we don't have that.

Everyone gets a clean slate with this new coaching staff, but not P-Buch, so far this coaching staff has said that Carr is the one. I'll take that considering they evaluated Plummer when he was with the Cards, a player very similar to Carr. To say that our offensive problems were on Carr makes me wonder about any validity in your arguments. It's been painfully obvious that the shuffling around of the offensive line and lack of cohesion has led to historic sack counts. Sure Carr is responsible for some, but realistically the system he been in wouldn't have let any QB blossom, we all saw what Banks could do, it wasn't any better.

Whoa, I'm gonna need you to expand upon that. How are they similar? Both had long, shaggy hair for awhile. Other than that I don't know. Plummer is still more athletic/better scrambler than Carr at 30 years old, he throws better on the run, and has a knack for avoiding sacks (and then making crazy dumb plays, something that was limited last year) I think Carr can do well in the same system, but he is much more a pocket passer than Jake is; stronger arm, more accurate from the pocket. Hopefully Kubiak can showcase his skills, but it will be a bit different than what he has done with Plummer. Dare I say it, but Carr's success will look more like that #7 guy's...(sacrilege)

 

[Bubbajwp]

Carr is one of the better scrambling QBs in the league.

 

[SESupergenius]

Wow, Banks (a career back-up) couldn't do any better than our starter. I'll also say that he didn't play WORSE either (although he did have very limited PT.) What does THAT say about our starting QB? I'll give you a hint: it's not good.

I've said it in other posts and I'll say it again here. Even if we correct our Oline, Carr will always be the type of QB that consistently makes bad decisions which leads to unnecessary sacks...he doesn't have the poise that is necessary for a successful QB...JMO.

Banks is a veteran starting QB that should have been able to right in and perform better, at least that was the thinking in some last year whom thought David Carr could do no good and wanted to see that Banks could show him up. Neither Steve Young nor Jake Plummer had the "poise" when they were with their respective bad teams, the Bucs and the Cards. We rank right up there in being that bad, and it isn't all the QB sorry to inform you.

 

[SESupergenius]

Whoa, I'm gonna need you to expand upon that. How are they similar? Both had long, shaggy hair for awhile. Other than that I don't know. Plummer is still more athletic/better scrambler than Carr at 30 years old, he throws better on the run, and has a knack for avoiding sacks (and then making crazy dumb plays, something that was limited last year) I think Carr can do well in the same system, but he is much more a pocket passer than Jake is; stronger arm, more accurate from the pocket. Hopefully Kubiak can showcase his skills, but it will be a bit different than what he has done with Plummer. Dare I say it, but Carr's success will look more like that #7 guy's...(sacrilege)

Both have good athletic ability, both liked to scramble, and both have strong arms, both started out on crappy teams.