infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
Wow that was the definition of sensitive--can't even joke around some folks.
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What would it take to get you to trade Carr?
- Thread starter Nighthawk
- Start date
Wow that was the definition of sensitive--can't even joke around some folks.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
It's in your imagination. We have a SIZEABLE Fresno fan base here who helps beat down our Carr detractors. They are like the Yao-only fans on clutchcity.net. Most of our mods seem to be in love with him too....I'm on the troll team myself I guess because I have a low opinion of his ability to play the position beyond being a prototype physically.Texans86 said:
Hulk75 said:What makes me laugh about stuff like this is that Kubiak, Reeves, some scouts, Casserly and the 7 or more HC canidates disagree with you. Just kind of funny to me son.
I dont know who to believe?
Personally, I think it's because it is no secret McNair is in Love with Carr. I'm sure the question was phrased like "David Carr will start for this team, do you still want the job??".
We'll see, I'll doubt David is on this team to start the 2008 season....
Texans86
Rookie
thunderkyss said:
Ouch, guy hasnt even taken a snap for the new coach yet, and he's already being benched by the fans three two years from now. I'm ready to sit back and just watch some football for awhile. I may even have to give in for some arena games. Never got into those very much, even though they are supposed to be more exciting.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
Put me down in the not going to yell at the team for giving him another chance, but now he better make a stupendous improvement and quick or the proverbial fan is going to get dirty.
After having watched this off-season unfold, my opinion now is they should have let Carr walk, get a Kitna type and then draft Young, but that option left when they spent another $8 mil on Carr.
Did anyone else catch McClain's statement about Carr and sacks last week? If I heard him correctly, he said the Texans had reviewed the 68 sacks and attributed 20 (29%) to Carr. Funny, I remember someone who suggested a 25-30% rate of responsibility being repeatedly told that was way too low. Obviously a biased Carr homer.
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Editinfantrycak said:
That's pretty much where you pegged it (the McClain figure), I had it a bit lower. Carr has 60 NFL starts. That's more than Bulger, Brees, Pennington and Leftwich. He may be a late bloomer...but much of what he lacks is in his intangables and his lack of feel for the pass rush and his poor vision. How much that can change...I donno....he can make all the passes though....but it takes more than that. I'll just have to deal with it if we don't draft another QB, but hes overpaid like crazy. Hard to debate that. When you have an average QB and pay him superstar money it hurts your team because you can't use that money to upgrade his cast.
jerek
Pro Hobbyist
infantrycak said:
Infantry, you are TURNING on us?
Call me a homer, call me whatever. I still say Carr is the guy to get the job done. I won't know until I see our team in action, but I think Kubiak and Co. are going to do big things around here, are going to make good personnel decisions and start calling good plays. Complain all you want, but the sacks we gave up repeatedly slaughtered our offensive drives this last year, and our defensive inability/ineptness was just unreal. It is simply hard to evaluate a quarterback when everything around him sucks as a whole, and I still take this up the ladder as being primarily the coaches' responsibility, more than the players.
I have coached and played sports at the college level and I have played for good teams and bad teams, and in football moreso than any sport, your coaching staff has to put you on the right page if things are going to get done. Good coaching causes players and teams to play above themselves, to create plays and moments that their talent alone could not have created. Bad coaching makes even the greatest combination of players and talents look worse.
All of that said, if these things start to improve, and our coaches are doing their jobs and the team responds but Carr is taking more than a his fair share of time to get on that page, then sure: I will start wondering if we shouldn't have punched his ticket and gone Leinart/Cutler/Young in this year's draft. I am convinced that Carr will succeed on this team - he will be at least good enough - ala Dilfer on the Ravens, Johnson on TB, Hasselbeck on the Seahawks, that kind of thing - and I think probably much better than that. But even he has to understand and realize (and I think that he does) that he is on pretty short notice right now.
And can I get a sack-fault recount? Too many Aggies in the room. ;-)
infantrycak said:
I think this would have been the way to go myself ....but then they have to own up to the fact that Casserly/McNair/Capers blew it with the Carr pick.
The hardest thing for some people to do is admit they made a mistake or have a problem .... Kinda like the first step to recovery for an alcoholic is admiting they have a problem.
HJam72
Hall of Fame
They did pay him too much. I haven't heard anyone say yet that he actually deserved that raise, unless maybe somebody said it was for taking the physical punishment. I really thought they were going to let him test the market for a while and then pay him something fair.
I don't believe that McNair would put his franchise at risk by insisting on keeping a QB that multiple, highly regarded coaches are saying is no good. Why would an owner spend all that money to put a team in place and then insist on that. Somebody, who is not being coerced, is telling McNair that Carr is a keeper....AND I SWEAR IT'S NOT ME.
I don't believe that McNair would put his franchise at risk by insisting on keeping a QB that multiple, highly regarded coaches are saying is no good. Why would an owner spend all that money to put a team in place and then insist on that. Somebody, who is not being coerced, is telling McNair that Carr is a keeper....AND I SWEAR IT'S NOT ME.
Texans86
Rookie
I've got it...we sucked as a whole team. Only one player stood out in a good way. It's the off-season, the draft is another month away. Carr has lots of money. Our passing O-line was as bad as our passing defense. We lost 14 games. This all hurts my head. I just want to go back to bed and think it was all a dream.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
TEXANS84 said:
What kills me is anyone who thinks there isn't plenty of blame to share. Good lord there were 68 sacks last year. Give Carr 20, 36 to the OL and 12 to the RB's and TE's. Everyone needs to improve.
TheTexans' establishment (the Owner, GM, HC, "Consultant" Reeves), have made it clear Carr is their guy, therefor I'm supportive of him. So I guess that means that I indirectly agree with the view that Carr's problems or lack of effectiveness aren't caused by him as much as his teammates (or the lack of
contributing teammates as it were, mainly the OL). And had they released Carr, I would have supported that decision, figuring they concluded it was time to cut their losses.
I was hoping we'dget relief from the UT fans and their annoying pleas to draft VY after the Texans picked up Carr's option, but as I figured, their loyalties to UT are far deeper than their hope for the Texans success. It will be so nice
when VY is drafted by another franchise next month, as it should be quite a few yrs before he becomes eligible for FA.
contributing teammates as it were, mainly the OL). And had they released Carr, I would have supported that decision, figuring they concluded it was time to cut their losses.
I was hoping we'dget relief from the UT fans and their annoying pleas to draft VY after the Texans picked up Carr's option, but as I figured, their loyalties to UT are far deeper than their hope for the Texans success. It will be so nice
when VY is drafted by another franchise next month, as it should be quite a few yrs before he becomes eligible for FA.
Frills
Waterboy
On some of the 20 sacks that were Carr's fault could be coverage sacks, when you have 1 threat at WR secondary schemes are fairly easy.
A few more could be attributed to shellshock. The man took a beating, time after time, you'd have to think even when he had time in the back of his mind he was waiting for the hit.
A few more could be attributed to shellshock. The man took a beating, time after time, you'd have to think even when he had time in the back of his mind he was waiting for the hit.
Texans86 said:
It's not that I'm benching him, I'm cutting him, trading him, basically, just letting him go. Look at the last page of posts in this thread...... looks like some people are finally admiting Carr has real problems. One of the most frustrating thing I've experienced on this board, is that it looked like no one wanted to put any blame at all on Carr...... "Carr's got problems, but I don't think we should draft a QB now" would have been nice to hear(read) every now and again, but that's not the way it's been. It's been "Carr did the best he could do behind our line" which is simply not the case. Carr played poorly, poor play of the offensive line, recievers dropping passess.......... all true. I think Carr could have played better. Might not have equalled more wins, but I still think he could have played like a starting NFL quarterback. Manning and Plummer got their butts handed to them several times this year, but they didn't look as bad as Carr has..... and I understand Carr is being teed off on, more on a regular basis......... I'm just tired of him looking like a first year player.
We are 4 years into his career, I personally don't think he can improve. All of his excuses are about to go away, I think by 2008, we won't have a choice, but to let him go.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
Well IMO 36 for the OL isn't workable. That isn't even the NFL average for the team combined--32 is. Included in that are other QB's, TE's and RB's causing sacks as well. Plus, we shouldn't be shooting for average.
And the Kubiak quote was not that Carr caused a significant number of sacks, but that he had told Carr he was part of the problem also and all the parts had to improve. No I can't think of another QB sacking himself at this kind of rate--on the other hand there aren't a whole lot of QB's who have tried to run such a micky mouse O behind this type of OL either. In any event, it would be silly to believe anything other than Carr needs to improve vastly this year--same bottom line, different view of the severity of the problem.
Frills said:
I would only count the sacks where Carr ran into a defender, out of bounds behind the LOS, bad snaps, and intentional grounding on Carr. To me, a coverage sack would still fall to whoever couldn't hold their block.
infantrycak said:
My memory is bad....... ok, downright poor. Kerry Collins and Capers in Carolina, was it as Mickey Mouse?? Why did Carolina let Capers go, and do you think that affected what he did here??
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
That just isn't accurate at all. Vinny, ArlingtonTexan, Ses, aj, plenty of other posters and yes I have repeatedly discussed the problems with Carr's game over the past few seasons. It isn't that Carr criticism doesn't exist, it is just that too many people ignore everything which isn't at a polar extreme--Carr is great and not at fault at all or Carr sucks.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Vinny would be a better person to describe the Carolina O at that point but I suspect the answer will be similar but not as micky mouse. Take a look at the stats for Collins' 1st 4 years by the way.
The expansion draft rules were much more beneficial to the teams at that point. The Jags and Panthers were able to quickly field play-off contenders. Capers went with proven but old (and expensive) guys, particularly on D. They flared and then fizzled--bye bye Capers.
bigTEXan8
Rookie
There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr 
as the next , but c'mon. There are problems that can be fixed, there are other problems that can't. I think that Carr's problems can be fixed, and that's why Carr won't be traded. JM
as the next , but c'mon. There are problems that can be fixed, there are other problems that can't. I think that Carr's problems can be fixed, and that's why Carr won't be traded. JM
infantrycak said:
Comparing the Texans and Panthers is like comparing apples and oranges .
Carolina was a predominately veteran team built thru FA aquisitions . Sure they wont quickly but had cap problems galore soon after ....where the Texans were younger less proven players and draft choices with a few vets thrown into the mix mainly on the D.
bigTEXan8 said:There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr
I think this is the sentiment of the orginization as a whole reguarding Carr .
infantrycak said:
I know in my push for Vince, I've taken shots at, and slammed Carr much harder than I normally would..... maybe the Carr defenders were being as one sided as I was, for arguments sake.......
I'm hoping you're saying Carr will be better than Collins.......
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
thunderkyss said:
Better be or the Texans just made a mistake paying that bonus. Just mentioned that so you could look at it.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
infantrycak said:
As a follow up. There was 1 team last year that made the playoffs after having allowed more than 32 sacks.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
The way I see it we will know within the first three games if the Kubiak effect can take hold on Carr and the offense. I still get a sense, a spidey one at that, that there are more problmes than execution by the unit. I could easily see this team quitting on Carr if he can't make plays. This is why I see us at 4-12 to 9-7 next year. Kubiak wanted him, extended him and now he owns the responsibility. Much like Colin Powell telling Bush, "you go into Baghdad and you own the responsibility."
Come to think of it there are plenty of parallels between Carr's extension and Iraq.
Come to think of it there are plenty of parallels between Carr's extension and Iraq.
bigTEXan8 said:There is a whole bunch of problems on this team, yet we center one player. Carr played lousy this year, along with 21 other players that started every other game. I'm as big as any other Carr
Just for the record, I've been loud about Vince, mainly because the draft Reggie crowd is so loud, and it seems more acceptable to trade down/draft Bush, than the trade down/draft Vince.
I don't know college players at all really, I don't know D'Angelow Williams from AJ hawk. But I know we don't need a RB #1 overall no matter how you slice it. If this were my draft, I'd try to trade down, and I think we can drop out of the top 5, and get what we need....... I'd be looking for a pass rushing DE with my highest pick, and interior Oline with my other.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Vinny said:
The one thing I would have liked to have heard (maybe I missed it) was Carr and Kubiak mentioning they had talked to each other at length. JMO, but Kubiak prior to the interview and since has reviewed tons of Carr tape and barring this all being one of the best disinformation campaigns of all times believes Carr's problems are workable. I have quite a bit of faith in Kubiak's QB judgment but I wonder if he made a person judgment as well. Fact is there are lots of things in football which are generically coachable/workable--dancing in the backfield, throwing the ball away, catching with your hands instead of body--but the person has to be coachable in addition to the technique. Wish we had heard something about Kubiak having made that determination as well.
On the workable thing with Carr--my bet is he is always going to take some sacks that are his fault. He does not have the pocket presence Brady or Big Ben have. On the other hand, as you have made fun of, 8-12 of those 20 sacks are from running out of bounds at or behind (often recorded as a 0-2 yd loss) the LOS. Those can be coached and Carr already has a track record on that. 2002 you accurately pointed out that problem. 2003 and 2004 Carr was greatly improved in that regard. 2005 Carr regressed back to 2002 form on the issue.