What totally ticks me off when.....

[NATHANHALE]

IMO, there has been some good discussion on this thread. My problem with Carr and this new offense is that--yes, he can run in the open field--but he has had trouble getting away from the rush and has never ever been known as a QB that consistently 'throws on the run.' In other words, his mobility has been limited and has only applied to running with the ball, not throwing while on the run. As Twin Sisters said-even after 4 yrs-Carr is a mystery. We don't know how quickly he learns new things, for example, and we don't know how much of his so-so play is to blame on him or other factors. Saying this, IMO our new offense may not be a 'walk in the park' for the players to execute because few have experienced it. How much different is it for a receiver to catch a ball from a QB on the run or the lineman to block? I'm not sure but I think Plummer threw on the run before he went to Denver--Carr was strictly a drop-back passer in college, did'nt even avg a yd per carry rushing--67yds rushing his SR yr. To say the least, it's going to be interesting this year...

 

[TheCD]

The problem I have with that comparison is that Bledsoe had Parcells when he started out in New England and Favre had Mike Holmgren to show him the ropes.


Of course, both those coaches have won Super Bowls...but that doesn't mean anything, because David Carr has had Dom Capers teaching him, so he's exactly in line with where his development should be right now...

 

[NATHANHALE]

The problem I have with that comparison is that Bledsoe had Parcells when he started out in New England and Favre had Mike Holmgren to show him the ropes.


Of course, both those coaches have won Super Bowls...but that doesn't mean anything, because David Carr has had Dom Capers teaching him, so he's exactly in line with where his development should be right now...

...so what about QB's that did well and had lousy coaches? Have there been any?

 

[TwinSisters]

Bledsoe had Chris Palmer as his QBs coach

will have to look to see how long they were together

1993-95 WR's coach 96 QB Coach.. so somebody else was helping him out. Weiss was the TE's coach.

( can't find the QB coach fast enough )

Mike Price was his college coach

 

[TheCD]

I'm not saying that there's never been a QB in the league that hasn't flourished despite bad coaching...but you show me a hall of famer that had bad coaching and you're likely to see a guy who didn't play to the top of his abilities until he had a great coach come in.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.

I honestly have never seen the guy make a throw or do anything where he blew me away. The Vikings game in 2004 was the only one where I left thinking this is the game that Carr turned it around. I realize the issues and the challenges he has, but he has never blown me away with the talent and tenacity the Carr supporters talk of. At least Jake Plummer was entertaining on a bad team due to him helping his team get behind, but then orchestrating comebacks.

 

[thunderkyss]

Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.

I agree.... a lot of people want to compare Carr's situation with Plummer's. but I don't think there is any comparison. Plummer IMHO, was able to do things in Arizona, similar to what McNabb has done in Philly.

Other than McNabb, Philly has no offense....... but they've built a formidable D. They also had continuity from one season to the next, on both sides of the ball, and a coach who could win the close ones for them.

Arizona has never to my knowledge had a WR & a RB to work with Plummer. Not at the same time. They've had a WR...... the only RB I can remember them having while Jake was there, was Pittman, but they didn't wait on him to develop...

But when the Arizona Cardinals won football games, it was because Jake Plummer won many of them..... I understand there were 11 guys on the field, if you can't understand how one guy can win a football game, then I don't know what to say to you. But Jake Plummer won a lot of games for Arizona.... Just like McNabb has won a lot of games for the Eagles.....

 

[TwinSisters]

I'm not saying that there's never been a QB in the league that hasn't flourished despite bad coaching...but you show me a hall of famer that had bad coaching and you're likely to see a guy who didn't play to the top of his abilities until he had a great coach come in.

Dan Fouts is the marquee example here.

He is in the Hall of Fame and credits the coaching change. ( also credits his struggles to coaches )
----

Warren Moon bad coaching, still HOF for the counter example.

 

[MorKnolle]

Since there are many new to this debate I will go ahead and throw a statement question out. Carr was the #1 pick in the draft and went to an expansion team where there were issues with coaching and the Oline. But at some point you would think that we would see flashes of brilliance that would make you say, "Wow! I can't wait until we get that guy more weapons or he matures." I know I have not said this, but I have said it about Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson.

I honestly have never seen the guy make a throw or do anything where he blew me away. The Vikings game in 2004 was the only one where I left thinking this is the game that Carr turned it around. I realize the issues and the challenges he has, but he has never blown me away with the talent and tenacity the Carr supporters talk of. At least Jake Plummer was entertaining on a bad team due to him helping his team get behind, but then orchestrating comebacks.

As I've posted on another thread, I'm in the process of re-watching all of last year's games, and so far I have been pleasantly surprised with Carr's performance compared to what I remembered feeling at the time. I see several instances of great promise, mixed in with the most ridiculous offensive system I've ever seen run. On every single series it literally is run on 1st down, run on 2nd down, then have to pass on 3rd and long when every team knows that we have to pass and we can't protect the QB so they bring blitzes. Not many (if any) players could enjoy any kind of success running that crap). The few times we went out of the box and threw the ball not out of necessity we had good success (Mathis' TD catch against the Browns for instance). I've watches 4-5 games so far, and while it has been painful to rewatch the garbage that we were running, it has helped boost my faith in David Carr to become the QB we need him to be, and I've seen some good play out of several other players that I had somewhat forgotten about that are still on the team (I've been pleasantly reminded of Shantee Orr, Robaire Smith, and especially Dunta Robinson on several occasions).

As for the David Carr comparisons, as I've said before he obviously has not had the level of success that Brett Favre has in terms of either team success or personal statistics, but a young Brett Favre is the best modern comparison to the type of player that David Carr is (Carr is also fairly similar to a young John Elway in terms of his ability although Elway's teams also enjoyed much more success early on), and hopefully now that we have a more competent staff he will develop into the QB that Favre has become, and hopefully without the propensity to force too many plays and throw too many INTs.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Appreciate your on the spot reporting Mork given the hell you are putting yourself through again. All I can picture is you sitting in a dark room with a reel to reel projector from my 1980 science class watching film of a 2-14 team. The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.

A play here and a play there are expected by a first round pick in his fourth year. Are my expectations to high of the guy that he can string more than one game together?

 

[MorKnolle]

Appreciate your on the spot reporting Mork given the hell you are putting yourself through again. All I can picture is you sitting in a dark room with a reel to reel projector from my 1980 science class watching film of a 2-14 team. The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.

A play here and a play there are expected by a first round pick in his fourth year. Are my expectations to high of the guy that he can string more than one game together?

Not at all, I expect great things out of Carr in the coming years. If I can manage to record some of these clips onto my computer I might post some either directly on here or on another website and link them here, assuming that doesn't constitute a copyright infringement by doing so. Either way the process of trying to record them (much less just watching them) is taking a very long time.

 

[TwinSisters]

The people on this board that go back and actually watch those games, I am one of them during the season, are much like a football spin off of Opus Dei, subjecting ourselves to unimagnable punishment to find reason, yet yielding more questions.

ahhhh................

 

[thunderkyss]

Not at all, I expect great things out of Carr in the coming years. If I can manage to record some of these clips onto my computer I might post some either directly on here or on another website and link them here, assuming that doesn't constitute a copyright infringement by doing so. Either way the process of trying to record them (much less just watching them) is taking a very long time.

I wish I had the fore-sight to record all the games..... I know I come into these arguments with no evidence to support my point of view. But too many times this year, I kept asking my TV set, "what the heck are you doing?" or "why'd you do that" and it was usually directed to Carr.

There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.

I also believe, if anyone really wanted to, they'd be able to put together a highlight reel of almost anyone, that would garner that player a spot in the probowl.......... Aaron Brookes, Joey Harrington, Anthony Wright, David Garrard........ so.... what's the point??

 

[aj.]

I record all the games and watch them again at least once during the week after the game. Television replay is sometimes quite revealing but overall, there are major limitations to what you can deduce from network replays. Not knowing the playcall and options as designed is the biggest thing. Seeing a guy that "obviously missed a block" on a CBS replay may not be reflective of the truth when you don't know the assignments in the first place, unless it's in cases where it's obvious. It's very difficult to 'grade' WRs and DBs without coaches tape - likewise it's very difficult to 'grade' a QB without knowing the playcall, his progressions and the route mix, protections, (or having a playbook in hand and understanding it as you toggle between << and >>. When taken in that context, making observations from tv replay can be informative - mainly because it's better than nothing.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.

I did an advanced search and there is plenty there. I tried looking for some of your posts amongst the multitide of threads, but there is just to much. Maybe one of the admins can direct you on how to use the search feature better than I.

 

[thunderkyss]

I did an advanced search and there is plenty there. I tried looking for some of your posts amongst the multitide of threads, but there is just to much. Maybe one of the admins can direct you on how to use the search feature better than I.

no....... it doesn't matter...... it's like pooring lemon juice on a papercut...

I'm trying to cut back........ honestly.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

I agree.... a lot of people want to compare Carr's situation with Plummer's. but I don't think there is any comparison. Plummer IMHO, was able to do things in Arizona, similar to what McNabb has done in Philly.

Other than McNabb, Philly has no offense.......<snip>

When the Arizona Cardinals won football games, it was because Jake Plummer won many of them..... I understand there were 11 guys on the field, if you can't understand how one guy can win a football game, then I don't know what to say to you. But Jake Plummer won a lot of games for Arizona.... Just like McNabb has won a lot of games for the Eagles.....

While he was there, the Cards went 4-12, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9, 5-11. I don't know which of those games he started. His one shining season was 98 when the Cards went to the playoffs and he had a 75 QB rating and a 17-20 touch to intercept ratio.

I was a huge fan of Jake's coming out of college. We lived in Phoenix for a while and we were Cardinals fans for awhile. We still want them to do well. But... Jake's problem was that he lost more games for you than he won. I wouldn't put him in the same league as McNabb. Granted, Jake was trying to put the team on his shoulders and carry them but he got into the habit of slinging interceptions and forcing balls. He created his own problems in a lot of instances. He had some exciting come-backs but frequently the team was down because of his poor decisions in the first place.

He had the one season where he led the Cards to the playoffs for the first time in a zillion years but after that, he really wasn't successful. He had one year where he had a 50 quarterback rating. He's had 5 seasons of 20 or more interceptions.

After going to Denver, his QB rating jumped from the mid-60's to the low 90's. I would LOVE to see that sort of turn around with DC.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

There is a thread on this MB somewhere, I can't find it, but I asked if 2005 would be the do or die year for Carr...... no excuses....... I had many members here agree that he'll get no excuses...... but I can't find that thread either. This was before the 2005 season mind you. but it's gone...... some kinda conspiracy.

No excuses... unless the play calling is like rilly, rilly bad.

 

[thunderkyss]

While he was there, the Cards went 4-12, 9-7, 6-10, 3-13, 7-9, 5-11. I don't know which of those games he started. His one shining season was 98 when the Cards went to the playoffs and he had a 75 QB rating and a 17-20 touch to intercept ratio.

you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.

 

[DocBar]

you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.

How many of those 13 losses can be laid at Jake's feet? I don't know as I'm not a big fan of his. IMO, he tries too hard to be Bret Favre...another overrated QB(also IMHO) who gambles too much and made his living and a large part of his rep off of Sportscenter.

 

[TK_Gamer]

I like Jake too, but he tries so hard to make plays sometimes he kills his own momentum. I dont really know how to put it in words , "desperate enthusiasm"?? the playoffs this year were a great example. but since i dont know what the original playcalls were I cant really blame him directly. Carr on the other hand can be blamed at least indirectly for his scoot oob he likes so much. but i guess if i got sacked 300 times i might overeact too

 

[The Pencil Neck]

you missed the point.......... it's not about QB rating, or stats... or wins and losses.....

But when the Arizona Cardinals went 3-13, they won those three games because of Jake Plummer. more than likely, just like the Eagles lose many games because of McNabb, Jake lost some as well.... but Jake won their games, bottom line.

Well, you're contradicting yourself. It's not about wins and losses but it's about the games that Plummer won for them? Huh?

In any case, I don't agree with you. When I was watching their games. I always felt like he was costing them a lot more than he was winning for them and my wife and I were Cardinal/Plummer fans at that time. He made a lot of bad decisions that cost them games. At least, that's the way I saw it.

 

[thunderkyss]

How many of those 13 losses can be laid at Jake's feet? I don't know as I'm not a big fan of his. IMO, he tries too hard to be Bret Favre...another overrated QB(also IMHO) who gambles too much and made his living and a large part of his rep off of Sportscenter.

I never put him and Bret Favre in the same category.... I don't really like Bret, but after so long, you have to admit that it isn't luck.

I guess, Bret has that extra something that makes his team mates try that little bit harder, making those amazing plays possible. He also had Sterling Sharpe for a good part of his glory years.

out of the 12 losses, how many were Jake's Fault?? a few for sure, but "everyone" usually says he had no help, so he'd get a pass.....

They went through a couple of coaches, changing everything but the QB... I think Jake was a SunDevil, and the owner wanted to keep him, and make it work, because of that........ I still don't believe Jake was the problem on that team, but getting rid of him was probably best for both parties.

 

[TheOgre]

...people who supposedly know a little something about the game making statements like "David Carr is 18-46 as a starter." That statement is an idiot finder, and its always helpful to know who those people are, so that is the one redeeming value. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's the same sensation I get when I hear people STILL pronouncing Craig Biggio's last name as Beeegio...(see: Patrick, Dan) he has only been in the majors nineteen years... ...

I can relate to that. One of my pet peeves is people that spell Pittsburgh incorrectly. It is a two sport town with one team that is in our division (if you call the Pirates a team) and the other was our biggest divisional rival (Steelers) in the city's favorite sport.

If you simply are not a fan of David Carr thats fine. There are legitimate points to be brought up regarding his performance, but don't attempt to pin all 46 losses on his shoulders just as he is not always the person most responsible for the wins ( example: Aaron Glenn scoring two touchdowns in Pittsburg).

 

[Kaiser Toro]

I could easily see how someone who sees a last name like Biggio that is familiar with language and pronounce it as the Italians would. Moreover, Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania could be spelled by someone who is from Pittsburg, KS without the H if they had never learned anything outside of thier locale.