What totally ticks me off when.....

[aj.]

I wasn't talking to anyone in particular, in fact, I read all of the last few posts in this thread. I'm just sharing what I've learned and like I said, you or anyone else can take it or leave it.

One measure to use is the franchise tag (average of top 5 cap hits) and transition tag (top 10 cap hits) for the position. These will include prorated bonuses, roster bonuses and salary.

And those can be misleading as well (see Antoine Winfield two years ago).

 

[DocBar]

OHHH MY ACHING HEAD!!!! All this contract talk is killing me. I become an EXTREMELY casual fan when it gets to contracts. I am, however, fairly impressed with the grasp that several of y'all have on the system. I usually just go with the garaunteed money and figure the last few years of the contract as "ego-boosters" for the agents.

 

[thunderkyss]

Well if you had been around for the last 4 years and bothered to read anything not having to do with Carr you would have seen plenty of posts.

Forgive me.......

You're wrong about the Carr figure. Look at that site.

No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.

And here's the info on Drew Brees, he's NOT cheaper at all...

Drew Brees: 6 year deal with the Saints for $10 mil per year http://www.fanball.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm/pid.1070

I'll admit that I haven't looked at the link yet, but I will. IIRC, Brees is getting a few million to play this year..... he's basically on a one year probation type thing...... if his shoulder prevents him from playing past 2006, the Saints don't owe him a thing, and should've drafted Vince............ or Matt, whatever.

Brooks is the only one I'd be ok with signing. Brees is still a question because of his injury, and Culpepper is as well and the fact that he couldn't do anything without a speed receiver like Moss is a little unsettling.

I was just rattling off options, of guys with better stats that would cost us less than $13.something. or who were more than likely less than $7.25million cap liabilites.....

And you have to be nuts to suggest that we should have picked up Joey Harrington. That's the laughable statement of the century right there. There's a reason why he's only getting $800,000 in salary this year http://www.fantasysports.aol.com/fb/playerProfile.cfm?pid=1294

[/quote]
then I'm nuts......... Joey for $800,000 compared to Carr for $13.something million, or $7.25 million sounds like a sweet deal to me.

Brees contract is 10 mil a year so what are you talking about? Plus he is coming off an injury, plus what makes you think we would have gotten him simply because he was on the market? Same goes for any of the other players you mentioned.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

heavily back load the contract, so the player has to perform to get it.... but know that you'll force them to renegotiate so they never see that either. That's what happened with Steve McNair....... 'cept he wasn't having it.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal...... which would give us leverage when negotiating David's new multi-year deal. as it stands, he looks aweful expensive...... heck we could have signed a QB #1 overall in the draft for that kind of money.

 

[TwinSisters]

Team
Passing Yds (Rank)
Passing Attempts
Pass Completion
% Pass Completion
Passing Yds/Attempt
Passing Touchdowns
% Passes Intercepted
NFL QB Rating
300 yd Passing Games
Avg. NFL Rank

David
Carr
Texans
2488 ( 19)
423 ( 17)
256 ( 16)
60.5 ( 17)
5.88 ( 31)
14 ( 20)
2.6 ( 15)
77.2 ( 21)
0 ( -)
17.33

Drew
Bledsoe
Cowboys
3639 ( 8)
499 ( 8)
300 ( 8)
60.1 ( 20)
7.29 ( 10)
23 ( 8)
3.4 ( 24)
83.7 ( 17)
3 ( 8)
12.33

( this is with ten games )

Chris
Simms
Buccaneers
2035 ( 25)
313 ( 24)
191 ( 23)
61.0 ( 15)
6.50 ( 23)
10 ( 28)
2.2 ( 9)
81.4 ( 19)
0 ( -)
18.44

Jake
Plummer
Broncos
3366 ( 12)
456 ( 11)
277 ( 12)
60.7 ( 16)
7.38 ( 9)
18 ( 12)
1.5 ( 2)
90.2 ( 7)
1 ( 17)
10.89

 

[TheCD]

No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.

Once again...look at that site. It says, and I quoted this, that the MAXIMUM David Carr can receive off of the ENTIRE deal we made with him was $60 mil for 7 years...which amounts to $8.6 mil AFTER INCENTIVES, BONUSES, AND THE LIKE. Before escalators and other bonuses, the contract is worth $46.25 million over the course of the seven years.

In other words, BEFORE ESCALATORS AND OTHER BONUSES, Carr can make at least $6.6 mil...AFTER ALL BONUSES AND OTHER ESCALATORS HE CANNOT MAKE MORE THAN $8.6 MIL.

 

[infantrycak]

He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.

It is ridiculous to act as if Carr is getting $13 mil to play this year--the signing bonus is prorated for a reason--it is the incentive to play over the life of the contract. Peyton Manning didn't get $35 mil to play last year either. Your point is fine that Carr is overpaid based on prior performance at his cap hit of $7.2 mil so there is no need to spoil the point by going overboard and trying to make the money look worse.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

Well he certainly is seeing over $10 mil this year by your standard--his signing bonus was $10 mil and his salary is $1.9 mil for a total of $11.9 mil. There is a $12 mil bonus due next year if the Saints want to keep him.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal..

The deal was written to protect both parties. Carr had the 1st option--if he met certain performance standards he could opt out of the last three years of the contract--he did. The Texans then had an option to buy back either the next two years of the contract for $5.5 mil or all three years of the contract by paying $8 mil. One could surmise the Texans are firm in their judgment of Carr based on exercising the 3 year rather than 2 year buy back option.

 

[TwinSisters]

One could surmise the Texans are firm in their judgment of Carr based on exercising the 3 year rather than 2 year buy back option.

hmmm. Wait a minute. The Texans firm judgement earned a number 32 spot and signed Carr in the first place, so that's not good. It's not a good thing that they think he is a good thing.

 

[infantrycak]

hmmm. Wait a minute. The Texans firm judgement earned a number 32 spot and signed Carr in the first place, so that's not good. It's not a good thing that they think he is a good thing.

Did I say it was a good thing? I said they appeared firm in their judgment.

 

[TwinSisters]

Did I say it was a good thing? I said they appeared firm in their judgment.

So then are you saying it is a bad thing?



( just kidding... I do not expect a reply )

 

[BlueThunder]

It ticks me off to that we passed a QB in the draft but now everyone wants to add pressure and dish our only hope....I wouldn't say Carr is the starter,,it added virus to the youth and fizzles out the carma of the team and competition.I really think Carr is the best QB but we have to give our other QBs a shot with the first team in the preseason to unset him.We have 2 new systems so our season pretty much starts Augest 12 when KC comes to town.It will be the ultimate test with a running coach and a running team..

 

[thunderkyss]

It is ridiculous to act as if Carr is getting $13 mil to play this year--the signing bonus is prorated for a reason--it is the incentive to play over the life of the contract. Peyton Manning didn't get $35 mil to play last year either. Your point is fine that Carr is overpaid based on prior performance at his cap hit of $7.2 mil so there is no need to spoil the point by going overboard and trying to make the money look worse.



Well he certainly is seeing over $10 mil this year by your standard--his signing bonus was $10 mil and his salary is $1.9 mil for a total of $11.9 mil. There is a $12 mil bonus due next year if the Saints want to keep him.

You're right, I'm twisting the numbers to make it look worse than it is..... for effect...... you can fool some of th......... you know the rest.

& Brees Contract, I didn't know the extent of the deal...... I was going by what the other guy posted... If Brees got a $10 mill signing bonus, then I was wrong, we couldn't have gotten him cheaper than we paid for Carr, and the Saints are dumber than I thought.

 

[thunderkyss]

It ticks me off to that we passed a QB in the draft but now everyone wants to add pressure and dish our only hope....I wouldn't say Carr is the starter,,it added virus to the youth and fizzles out the carma of the team and competition.I really think Carr is the best QB but we have to give our other QBs a shot with the first team in the preseason to unset him.We have 2 new systems so our season pretty much starts Augest 12 when KC comes to town.It will be the ultimate test with a running coach and a running team..

NO Carr is the starter....... that's the whole point of the $8 mil....

But that's not a bad thing.... Carr still has a strong arm, and he doesn't make bad throws.. often..... he's got enough mobility, and he's tough as nails..... As long as he doesn't do the silly things that hurt him, and our team, he should be good.

 

[TheCD]

NO Carr is the starter....... that's the whole point of the $8 mil....

But that's not a bad thing.... Carr still has a strong arm, and he doesn't make bad throws.. often..... he's got enough mobility, and he's tough as nails..... As long as he doesn't do the silly things that hurt him, and our team, he should be good.

The "silly mistakes" you're referring to reflect a coaching problem. But now that we have the man who not only backed up John Elway, but taught him and Steve Young, as well as Jake Plummer more recently, I think we'll be just fine seeing as he's got plenty of experience working with a mobile QB who's got a solid arm.

 

[MorKnolle]

The "silly mistakes" you're referring to reflect a coaching problem. But now that we have the man who not only backed up John Elway, but taught him and Steve Young, as well as Jake Plummer more recently, I think we'll be just fine seeing as he's got plenty of experience working with a mobile QB who's got a solid arm.

As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

 

[beerlover]

As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

if he can resurrect Jake Plummer imagine what he can do for David Carr

 

[Revolution]

my vote would be 'Yes'. sure is reading like one.

thanks cak for clearing that up for me. I guess I give too much credit for reasoning skills sometimes.

Reasoning skills? How about most times, records are given W-L as the first post. What in your post would lead someone to someone think "Oh, he means he has won 17 of 60 games?????? At first glance, it looks like you just screwed up to me because when I speak of a win/loss record, I refer to wins and losses, not wins in total number of games.

You are asking people to read your mind, not use their reasoning skills.


Duh.....

 

[TwinSisters]

As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

Holmgren gets most of the coaching credit for Steve Young, Brett Farve, and to a lesser extent Joe Montana. The Steve Young link comes from his BYU days.

Then of course there is Hasselbeck too.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/seahawks/2006-01-31-holmgren-cover_x.htm
----

Just a little interesting note that goes back a few Carr threads

In Green Bay, where Favre more than occasionally had his own ideas, someone had to provide a demilitarized zone. "I would say I was right in the middle of it," Reid says. "I was a big buffer."

In that whole article they don't mention Shanahan or Kubiak once... pretty funny. Like there is some type divide there in 1994.

 

[infantrycak]

As big of a fan as I am of Kubiak, I don't know how much he "taught" Steve Young and John Elway, although he certainly helped resurrect Jake Plummer's career.

Who knows how much he taught him but Young said this in his Hall of Fame speech:

I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach.

 

[TwinSisters]

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/release.jsp?release_id=1609

There is the whole transcript.

Learning from our failures, all of us, is as important as learning from our successes.

I did not learn all of these things on my own, I have been the recipient of the best coaching that one person has collectively ever had over my 30-year football career.

My dad mentioned Mike Ornato at Greenwich High School, the hotbed of football. Then there’s Lavell Edwards, also a Hall of Famer himself. Mike Holmgren coached me fresh from San Francisco State at BYU, and Ted Tollner. It was the great John Hadl, with Hall of Famer, Sid Gillman, who convinced me to let them tutor me in L.A. Along with Don Klosterman, they made a great threesome and taught me more about pro ball and quarterbacking than I could get in a lifetime.

Sid Gillman would tie my feet with a rope and taught me that playing quarterback was an art form. He’d always gravely say, ‘This is not a game, it is a canvas and you are Michelangelo.’ I loved Sid. He convinced me not to listen to the many people who believed at that time, in the mid 80’s, that you could not be a great quarterback if you could scramble. Go figure. Times change, it never made much sense to me anyway.

The coaching hit parade never subsided in my career. When I got to San Francisco it was only my favorite college coach again, Mike Holmgren, a future Super Bowl winner, and again Bill Walsh . The man with the most impact in football over the last 25 years. The innovation and enlightenment that he brought to the game is now commonplace in the league. We know about the West Coast offense that half of the league runs now in some form as well as the other intangibles that he brought to the game, like limiting contact in practice to save legs and injuries. His influence is now all over the league and I was grateful for the formative role he played in my progress. He believed in a scrambling lefty. Thanks Bill.

George Seifert pushed me very hard, and never let me rest. The situation we were both in demanded no excuses. It was Super Bowl or bust in San Francisco. Tough place to live. I never thought I would like a defensive minded head coach but he and I were champions together.

I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach. Mike, thanks for coming today, on your off day in training camp. That tells ya a little something. He and I were equally intense and he drove me beyond my own standards. He believed that I could be an MVP quarterback. One of the best game day play callers I have ever seen. His famous quote to me before Super Bowl XIX ‘Steve, don’t worry we’re going to crush these guys.’ Ya, well, we did. And he knew.

Steve Mariucci coached me to the end. His enthusiasm and vigor for winning was contagious. Both he and Marty Mornhinweg made me enjoy the game more than I ever had in the past. They helped me realize how much fun a game can be even with all of the expectations of Super Bowls. “Mooch” always yelled at me ‘is this fun or what?’ Yes it was.

 

[thegr8fan]

Reasoning skills? How about most times, records are given W-L as the first post. What in your post would lead someone to someone think "Oh, he means he has won 17 of 60 games??????

unruffle your feathers, chicken little. what would make me think someone would use reasoning skills? hmmm. perhaps as you so eloquently pointed out, in 4 seasons at 16 games per season there ISN'T 77 games total. go back and read my response and tell me where in it I used the word 'win' or 'loss'. so since there isn't 77 games, and I didn't use the word, 'win' or the word 'loss', what could I have possible meant? hmmmm now pay attention class, here is where 'reasoning skills' come in. Perhaps I meant that Carr has won a total of 17 games in 60 that he has played. using SIMPLE reasoning skills does this make sense? YES. Wow, I have just had my first lesson in reasoning skills 101.

now back to the thread topic which has transformed into a contract dispute of the highest calibre.

referring back to twinsister's stat reply where it lists 300 yd passing games, notice Carr has a big fat '0' next to his. strong arm?? when, where??

would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?

 

[thegr8fan]

oh I have seen him throw some deep pass's also. I just don't remember them being near enough to a reciever to be caught.

Winging one far downfield into the stands to avoid a sack is a good thing, and Carr should try that more often than he does running out of bounds with the ball still in his hands behind the LOS. It would be a welcome relief to see.

but I don't remember too many of his 'strong arm' pass's going far downfield and being caught.

and all you, 'he ain't got time due to the sack/ rush' save your fingers the exercise. I am particularly talking about those times when he has been able and just didn't see the reciever or didn't throw it on target.

 

[TexansLucky13]

Another Carr thread

We finally got the one thing that he needed to grow.... an offensive minded coaching staff. End of story.

 

[infantrycak]

referring back to twinsister's stat reply where it lists 300 yd passing games, notice Carr has a big fat '0' next to his. strong arm?? when, where??

You mean other than the 371 yds against TN in '03, or the 313 yds against Detroit in '04 or the 372 yds against MN in '04 or the spittin distance 293 yds against SL in "05 and 295 yds against Jax in '05? Granted there were very few--although I suspect there have been very few 300 yd games generally under Capers' teams.

would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?

Well for instance in '04 he went 11 of 25 from 21-30 yds thrown (44%) and 8 of 18 from 31-40 yds thrown (44%) (by the way, almost all of these came in the 1st 9 games of 2004 before the O went to HS mode) as compared to Manning 21 of 48 from 21-30 yds (43.8%) and 7 of 14 from 31-40 yds (50%) or maybe compared to Donovan McNabb at the same time (with TO) 8 of 33 from 21-30 yds (24.2%) and 6 of 17 from 31-40 yds (35.3%). Maybe since he completes them at almost the same rate as Manning and better than McNabb, more need to be thrown.

 

[AFD1717]

would someone please tell me where Carr ever threw an on target bomb downfield to show this strong arm of his?

Throwing an accurate deep ball and having a strong arm aren't the same thing. If you want to say Carr doesn't throw the deep ball well, I would at least listen to the arguement. I'd counter by saying that Carr usually over throws the deep passes that aren't caught (which is a good thing) and that obviously deep routes take more time to develop and we know the problem that leads to. I disagree, but I'll hear your arguement. If you are saying he doesn't have a strong arm - then, unless you have some powerful evidence to back that up, I'm writing you off as a hater. Carr has a cannon wether you like him or not.

 

[thegr8fan]

most of Carr's deep pass's he gets credit for are from runs after the catch. without going through then entire 2004 record of play by plays, the biggest gains are usually the screen pass with a huge gain afterwards, so a 5 yd pass with a 40 yd run after.


there is the occasional 15 yd area pass, but those a very few and even more scarce is the legit 20+ yd pass. they exist, but they are very few and very far between. Most of Carr's big yardage stats are due to YAC, not his arm/ accuracy. the KC game in 2004, in reviewing the first 6 games of that season, is by far his best outing with deep pass's.

Throwing an accurate deep ball and having a strong arm aren't the same thing.

that's what I come here for, such enlightening remarks. You got me there, I mean, obviously I was talking about Carrs inability to throw the ball a distance of 15 yds due to his wimpy arm muscles.

anybody, even our Kicker could heave the ball downfield. You think perhaps accuracy on a deep/ long throw MIGHT, POSSIBLY, have something to do with the reason they are NOT QB's.

 

[thegr8fan]

on a footnote, thanks cak for clearing up my error on the 300 yd game mistake. the stats supplied by twinsister that I used and didn't check myself, were obviously wrong.

the Minn. game was the best game I have seen Carr play to date. that game alone, bought him some time and even made me see some of that exhaulted 'potential' everyone talks about. Unfortunately it appears to be but a flash in the pan. A Fools gold type game that anyone at anytime can produce, but only once in their lifetime, in retrospect.

but probably his best game that I can remember and I was glad that I stayed till the end to see that comeback to take us to OT.

 

[infantrycak]

the Minn. game was the best game I have seen Carr play to date.

But for that game and a couple others I would be more pessimistic (instead of cautiously optimistic). I firmly believe Capers and Co. put a clamp on the O after the Indy away game in 2004 as I posted in another thread showing how Carr formerly distributed the ball (68% to WR's other than AJ) and then abruptly stopped (33% to WR's other than AJ)--that was against weaker D's and spells coaching directive IMO. In the MN game Carr was hitting Armstrong in stride, hitting AJ in double coverage, etc. MN wasn't a good D but it was world's better than we saw against bad D's last year for the most part.

most of Carr's deep pass's he gets credit for are from runs after the catch. without going through then entire 2004 record of play by plays, the biggest gains are usually the screen pass with a huge gain afterwards, so a 5 yd pass with a 40 yd run after.

For clarification--the stats I listed above are not for the distance the play went--they are for the distance the ball went in the air. Yards after catch don't play a role in those stats.

 

[thegr8fan]

since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

perhaps they come in 1 pass per game.

it was kinda amazing to see Hollings and Davis running for over 30 yds in screen plays a couple of times. Just a thought for those who think Davis doesn't have the speed to go all the way. I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

I will still contend though is that just like the 'Wells is a great special teams player' fantasy, it has yet to be proven that DC is a strong armed QB in the point of long pass's to WR's for a catch.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

 

[infantrycak]

since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

I don't have a specific recollection enough to rattle them off for you. I do recall, IMO the split in character between the pre-Indy games and post Indy games. In addition the stats for long passes and the recorded long pass per game support most of the long passes coming in the 1st 9 games. The point really being twofold--Carr hasn't thrown long as much as many QB's but when he has done so has been as successful as a couple of pro-bowl QB's. Doesn't mean he is a pro-bowler, just accuracy isn't what is holding him back.

I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

Don't recall the game, but absolutely true. DD is overrated as a great back and underrated as a non-starting quality back on the MB. When healthy he is very good.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

Here is the danger of stats--I'll give you 2 from the 1st Texans' regular season game ever--neither reflected in the stats. Carr delivered the ball on target to Bradford who was interfered with to keep the reception from being made. He also delivered the ball to Lewis who dropped it. Carr has also overthrown his WR's many times. It's a combo of coaches not calling the long ball, Carr not seeing it or overthrowing it and the WR's not catching it. They have been there--just too few and far between.

JT--you are thinking of the November game against the Jags where Bradford dropped a pass to tie the game.

 

[TK_Gamer]

two years ago against kc in kc, about 45 -50 yarder to corey bradford, i was at the game, we won that game btw. oh and a sweet leaping catch in the endzone that game by AJ, i think the score was 24 - 21

 

[bigbrewster2000]

Forgive me.......



No I'm not. the contract is set up the way most NFL contracts are. the player's salary is relatively small... bonus's are larger....... usually, that latter years of the contract are higher salaries, but the player usually never sees it. the contract is usually renegotiated to another small salary big bonus deal. David, earned $1.4 million or something like that his first year or so.... Now he is in a part of his contract where he will earn a $5.something salary. He'll be getting payments per game, that will equal $5.something then he already got his Bonus...... $8 million. that's $13.something million that we've given David Carr to play football for the Houston Texans in 2006.




I'll admit that I haven't looked at the link yet, but I will. IIRC, Brees is getting a few million to play this year..... he's basically on a one year probation type thing...... if his shoulder prevents him from playing past 2006, the Saints don't owe him a thing, and should've drafted Vince............ or Matt, whatever.


I was just rattling off options, of guys with better stats that would cost us less than $13.something. or who were more than likely less than $7.25million cap liabilites.....

then I'm nuts......... Joey for $800,000 compared to Carr for $13.something million, or $7.25 million sounds like a sweet deal to me.

He won't ever see $10 million a year, where David's bank account will have grown over $13 million dollars from April 2006, to January 2007.

heavily back load the contract, so the player has to perform to get it.... but know that you'll force them to renegotiate so they never see that either. That's what happened with Steve McNair....... 'cept he wasn't having it.

David's contract was written to protect us. He was expected to be lighting up the NFL by now, and instead of us having to pay him a gazillion dollars, this option(which was our choice only) would have allowed us to keep him here for what should be considered a deal...... which would give us leverage when negotiating David's new multi-year deal. as it stands, he looks aweful expensive...... heck we could have signed a QB #1 overall in the draft for that kind of money.

Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract. That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

 

[infantrycak]

Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract. That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

Yes Carr received his entire $8 mil option buy back bonus this year. On the Texans' payroll the entire amount will be reflected this year as money actually paid out. Under the salary cap accounting (this is only for accounting for the money on the salary cap and is not a reflection of when it is actually paid) rules, teams are permitted to pro-rate certain bonuses (signing bonuses, this buy back bonus) over the term of the contract--others such as roster bonuses are not prorated and go in their entirety on the cap for the year paid. Carr will receive $13 mil in cash this year but his cap hit bill be $7.2.

 

[aj.]

Players dont get all of their bonus money at the front of their contract.
That 8 mil is spread out over the 3 remaining years of his contract. So he is not getting 13 million this year even though that is technically his cap hit if he were cut. Please know your stuff before you attempt to spout off info.

On the contrary, players typically receive bonus money as a lump sum when they sign their deals/extensions. Don't confuse payroll with cap accounting because they are two entirely different animals.

Carr's cap hit if he was hypothetically cut today would be $6 million. They accounted for $2 million of his $8 million bonus proration on the '05 cap. They could spread the remaining $6 million over two years if they wanted to.

 

[Titan "Tack" Fan]

...people who supposedly know a little something about the game making statements like "David Carr is 18-46 as a starter." That statement is an idiot finder, and its always helpful to know who those people are, so that is the one redeeming value. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard. It's the same sensation I get when I hear people STILL pronouncing Craig Biggio's last name as Beeegio...(see: Patrick, Dan) he has only been in the majors nineteen years... ...

Anyone who honesty believes that wins and losses can be fairly assigned to quarterbacks as they are to baseball pitchers could fit their knowledge of football on a kicking tee. Actually, it isn't always fair in baseball (see: Clemens, Rodger) much less football.
If you simply are not a fan of David Carr thats fine. There are legitimate points to be brought up regarding his performance, but don't attempt to pin all 46 losses on his shoulders just as he is not always the person most responsible for the wins ( example: Aaron Glenn scoring two touchdowns in Pittsburg). Assigning the wins & losses to the QB because his is the most visible position on the field is intellectualy lazy hence this rant..
David is 18-46 while he was leading the league in sacks three out of his four years in the league - all his fault, had nothing to do with a dishwater-weak line in front of him, zero playmakers sans Andre Johnson, and Fred Flinstone calling the plays.
Gee then I guess Ben Roethlisberger is 27-4. Its all Big Ben to be sure. The fact that he leads the league in fewest pass attempts by a starting quarterback would just be an "excuse" made by Steeler-haters. Add playmakers like Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress, Antwaan Randle El, & Heath Miller...oh and that ground game wasn't too bad either, to the "excuse list". Bill Cower - the best coach of his generation (who has done more with less year in & year out?), well he just happened to be there; clearly it was all Ben. Casey Hampton on defense along with Joey Porter, and that Polamalu guy - you may have heard of him - wait stop making "excuses"! It was Ben.

I mean, he is the quarterback after all...

Sorry, but coming from someone who has absolutely NOTHING against the Texans ... I think Carr is overrated by you guys. Ok so yeah, he was good in college. So was Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith ..... If Vince Young goes 17-60 or whatever it is I'm sure as hell not going to say he's a good pro quarterback.

If Carr does better this year I will be singing a different tune, but he's been around for a while now, so I'd say this year is his last chance.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.

 

[Titan "Tack" Fan]

We all will see a different "tune" from DC this season I'll bet on that. With just GK being the Head Coach makes a complete turn around for the team as a whole. Now if, ya I said if he doesn't, which I doubt it at all, doesn't make any progress then really I would be speechless.

Kubiak is a bad mf'er.

 

[HOU-TEX]

Sorry, but coming from someone who has absolutely NOTHING against the Texans ... I think Carr is overrated by you guys. Ok so yeah, he was good in college. So was Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith ..... If Vince Young goes 17-60 or whatever it is I'm sure as hell not going to say he's a good pro quarterback.

If Carr does better this year I will be singing a different tune, but he's been around for a while now, so I'd say this year is his last chance.

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm just giving my unbiased opinion.

It's nice to have outsiders opinions on this paticular subject as it has filled most of the threads on the MB. I for one have thought DC has been tied down in years past and hasn't really had a chance to prove himself yet. There has been several times that I've thought he's made several mistakes in certain sinerios, but then I'd think, what if he wasn't put in that sinerio to began with. He has made bad decisions in bad situations, true. With that being said, when he's given ample time to read and make decisions he's done well. Until he's given that time on a consistant basis, the jury's still out for me.

 

[MorKnolle]

since your better at diggin up numbers like those than I will ever be, I will take your word for it. but in looking back through the first 5 games, they don't show. You pointed to the first 9 games, and I am not seeing 8 plays over 30 yds in the air. Actually I counted 4 in the first 6 games. 3 in the KC game. Most of those to AJ actually, with an occasional Gaffney one.

perhaps they come in 1 pass per game.

it was kinda amazing to see Hollings and Davis running for over 30 yds in screen plays a couple of times. Just a thought for those who think Davis doesn't have the speed to go all the way. I think one of his runs for a TD, from memory got called back for holding once. Can't remember which game that was.

I will still contend though is that just like the 'Wells is a great special teams player' fantasy, it has yet to be proven that DC is a strong armed QB in the point of long pass's to WR's for a catch.

so my question really is who remembers a long pass-catch from DC to a WR in a game? I can't remember any from memory. Just wondered if someone on the boards had a better memory and could think of one.

Two passes in the Jax game from last year, one to AJ and one to Bradford are the first that come to mind. I remember one that he made a perfect throw to Bradford at the end of a game that Bradford dropped too. I'm in the process of rewatching all the games from last year (very painful so far) and I might record some of the more memorable clips onto my computer and post them on here whenever I get the time to do all that, so I'll keep an eye out for any long passes.

 

[thunderkyss]

It's nice to have outsiders opinions on this paticular subject as it has filled most of the threads on the MB. I for one have thought DC has been tied down in years past and hasn't really had a chance to prove himself yet.

I've yet to compile the stats to prove my point, but I believe our offense has gotten simpler and simpler since our first year. After the 03 season, we've gotten to be quite Vanilla........ usually that's because of one thing.

However I'll give DAvid Carr the Benefit of the Doubt..... It's very possible, that Capers came to the conclusion of simplifing the offense for other reasons......... just like his idea of protecting the QB is utilizing a 1 step drop.

 

[thegr8fan]

thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

Perception is often reality. In my honest evaluation of Carr I do believe he has a strong arm, but I have not seen what I would categorize as a great deep ball. Granted he must have protection for that type of drop and it was not there often. Moreover, we had some drops by our WRs which usually trump an errant pass in the world of a fan. That all being said I am looking to see if Kubiak/Calhoun amend the way he throws his balls as I have not seen what I would consider a deep ball that a WR can run under.

 

[thunderkyss]

When I am not being unfair to David Carr..... when I look at him objectively, I think of Drew Bledsoe.... I like Drew, I believe he will be going into the HOF first ballot.... he's a real nice guy, I've never heard him say one bad thing about anyone. He's got some wheels. People think he's a statue, because he doesn't run. But he can get it done when he needs to.

And that is not bad...... but Drew could've been a lot better, if his coaches(& fans) would've demanded more from him.

That's what I want from David. I don't want to see him put out a little effort, and be the next Bledsoe....... I want him to give everything he has on every play, of every down, so he can be everything his talent implies he can be.

Much better than Aikman, much better than Marino, Staubach, Bradshaw........ the likes that we haven't seen.......

 

[TwinSisters]

Mister Thunderkyss,

Dear sir, it will behoof you to reclaim your statement that Drew Bledsoe 'has wheels'. This blasephemy has taken one step too far over the line. Recant or it's pistols at ten paces.

Yours Truely,
Houston's #1 "True" Fan

 

[MorKnolle]

thanks morknolle. that would be gr8.

I was just wondering, honestly, if this was another MB myth, or does DC actually deliver most of his long pass's on target. I couldn't think of a single one I had seen and was thinking out out loud with that question. I mean, if the guy is known for having 'a cannon for an arm' wouldn't you think that most of his memorable games would have a memory or two of a long deep pass that made you go 'wow'?

when I think of Bledsoe with the Cowboys, actually when he was with the Patriots, I think of him having a 'cannon for an arm' and while I can't remember the specific games, I know I have seen him throwing some very good, very long pass's.

when I think of Carr, I get almost nothing. the only one I can honestly remember is the opening drive of the Cowboys game in 2002 and the pass interference call that Bradford got, and that was actually an incompletion, and Bradford had to make some adjustments to try and catch it, from memory.

I just don't recall from memory too many Carr bombs being completed, in 60 games.

I don't recall many but at the same time for the majority of his career it hasn't been much of a part of their offense, especially last year. They ran so few routes that were deeper than 10 yards in futile effort to get the ball out of his hands quicker to avoid sacks and ended up giving him too few options to look to throw the ball to and made it easier for opposing defenses to guard those few guys (remember Corey Bradford guarded himself anyways), so between the constant pressure on Carr and the very few times the coaches actually called a deep route there haven't been many. I've seen him float some over guys like any QB will have a few of, and I've seen some very nice passes too. He definitely has the ability, I just don't know how many reps he's actually had throwing those kind of routes up until now.

I don't see the comparison to Bledsoe, Carr has probably a stronger arm and is much more athletic. I would evaluate Carr as a young Brett Favre, probably a little bit more mobile. He just hasn't been given the opportunity to develop into the gunslinger-type of QB that he should be. We'll see if Kubiak does that for him.

 

[TwinSisters]

Carr is like Favre and Bledsoe has wheels.

These two thoughts transpired and were transcribed on this very spot within 10 minutes of each other on July 3rd 2006.
-----


Bledsoe - holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked.
Carr- holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked or runs out of bounds.

Bledsoe is said to need a stout offensive line to work properly.
Carr is said to need a stout offensive line, two good WRs, good coaches, and the right plays called to work properly.

Bledsoe on his best day can barely break over a yard per carry. He has a grand total of 776 yards in 188 games.
Carr has a thousand in 60 games.

---

Brett Favre, strong arm and tough. That's the end of the Carr likeness.

Brett Favre was a party boy and a gambler. Carr is a house husband. Brett Favre and David Carr are night and day here, and it shows on the field. Favre will take his shots, Carr will wait for the safe toss. Favre has never thrown for less then 3,000 yards a season ( as a starter ). Carr struggles with one over 3,000 in 4 seasons played ( as a starter ).

 

[powerfuldragon]

It also bugs me when people can't spell Roger. (see: first post)

 

[TwinSisters]

It also bugs me when people can't spell Roger. (see: first post)

That's baseball though. You can mess that up and it will not anger the football gods. If you say Bledsoe is highly mobile, as in a characteristic of having the said wheels, this ...this could be dangerous.

 

[MorKnolle]

Carr is like Favre and Bledsoe has wheels.

These two thoughts transpired and were transcribed on this very spot within 10 minutes of each other on July 3rd 2006.
-----


Bledsoe - holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked.
Carr- holds on to the ball too long and gets sacked or runs out of bounds.

Bledsoe is said to need a stout offensive line to work properly.
Carr is said to need a stout offensive line, two good WRs, good coaches, and the right plays called to work properly.

Bledsoe on his best day can barely break over a yard per carry. He has a grand total of 776 yards in 188 games.
Carr has a thousand in 60 games.

---

Brett Favre, strong arm and tough. That's the end of the Carr likeness.

Brett Favre was a party boy and a gambler. Carr is a house husband. Brett Favre and David Carr are night and day here, and it shows on the field. Favre will take his shots, Carr will wait for the safe toss. Favre has never thrown for less then 3,000 yards a season ( as a starter ). Carr struggles with one over 3,000 in 4 seasons played ( as a starter ).

Favre and Carr have similar abilities on the field, although Carr is more cautious and Favre has been more willing to take chances. I was not at all comparing their off-field behavior. Favre has obviously had a lot more success than David Carr has to this point in time, but they are pretty similar QBs and Carr should be able to do just what Favre has done, although Kubiak's offense will run the ball more than Favre's did during the peak of his career, and Carr is more mobile than Favre ever was. Carr is a mixture of Jake Plummer's mobility and Brett Favre's arm.

 

[thunderkyss]

Bledsoe is reluctant to run....... and often times, when he decides to go, it is too late, and we see the results. But if you've ever watched him....... he's got career longs of 8, 9, 11, 15...... he even has one for 25 yards. Bledsoe just doesn't want to run, and I don't think he should have to.

Looking at Carr's college numbers, people would draw the same conclusion. But here in Houston, he's learned that he's got to run...... and it doesn't help him, if he makes that decision too late.

Of the two QBs that came out in 2002, the one that reminds me most of Favre, is Joey Harrington. Joey doesn't have the arm that Favre or Carr has, but he's got that never say never attitude, that makes him never give up on a play. he buys time for his offense to make something happen.

It's not a knock on Carr, but so far, when he leaves the pocket, I believe he's thinking of getting out of bounds, or picking up the yards. He might get lucky every now and again with making a big play...... but I don't think it's part of his game.

Like I said, it's not a knock on David..... Peyton, Byron, Palmer, Bledsoe, Kurt..... there are a lot of QBs that make it happen from the pocket. No reason to believe Carr can't.

If Kubiak can make it work with Carr(moving the pocket), I'll admit that I was wrong. But I think Carr will be at his best, if he can be taught to go through his progression(given time) or chunking it when he gets in trouble. There's nothing wrong with throwing it in the dirt if that's where it needs to go.

 

[TwinSisters]

Favre and Carr have similar abilities on the field, although Carr is more cautious and Favre has been more willing to take chances. I was not at all comparing their off-field behavior. Favre has obviously had a lot more success than David Carr has to this point in time, but they are pretty similar QBs and Carr should be able to do just what Favre has done, although Kubiak's offense will run the ball more than Favre's did during the peak of his career, and Carr is more mobile than Favre ever was. Carr is a mixture of Jake Plummer's mobility and Brett Favre's arm.

There are enough books and film out on Favre ( written by him, his mom, his pops, sports writers, and even his own TE, to include freakin Terry Bradshaw ) to say that his attitude off the field relates directly to how he approaches the game. He will throw 5 INTs for 3 TDs.

True... we cannot say this about Carr. We have to guess with Carr! Because there is little to nothing ever printed about him or talked about his game to great length ( the infinite Carr thread does not count ).

A typical team runs around 1,100 plays in a season. But for easy math, we will just round that down to 1,000 plays ( maybe to rid the spike and sit downs )

Normal teams as of late usually run close to a 500/500 Pass to Run ratio.

A WC team might have something like 600 to 400.

So Favre would have something like an extra 100 attempts at 60% and 7 yards a play for 420 yards.

Adding an extra 420 yards to Carr's numbers for the past 4 years still leaves him short of 3,000 yards 3 seasons and 1 season short of 4,000 yards.
---

Carr is not a Favre... he is a ******* mystery. Arm strength puts him on level with a lot of different QBs to include Bledsoe, Simms, Collins, etc. To say he is like a Favre is more wishful thinking then anything practical or tangible.
---

There was some argument going on a few threads back about whether or not Carr is the leader of the team. I did run across this article that had quotes in it from Wong and Billy Miller stating clearly that Carr was the leader of the team and that he wasn't the problem things were going south. I think it was dated around the beginning of last season or the end of the 2004 one. Miller said something about if fans could break film down with us, then they wouldn't be pointing the finger at Carr.
----

Mr.Thunderkyss,

So now you want to say he doesn't want to run? Unless he has a 50 Yard head start in the 4th quarter running against a deep prevent?

Peyton Manning has one for 33 Yards? Are we going to say he should be reclassified as "mobile"?

mmm I am thinking not. I am thinking you should... should just take that back. Bledsoe is not mobile, man. TAKE it back. Look at several QBs in the NFL. Collins, Detmer, even Brad Johnson has some 20 yard breaks.

But they are not mobile.

 

[NATHANHALE]

Bledsoe is reluctant to run....... and often times, when he decides to go, it is too late, and we see the results. But if you've ever watched him....... he's got career longs of 8, 9, 11, 15...... he even has one for 25 yards. Bledsoe just doesn't want to run, and I don't think he should have to.

Looking at Carr's college numbers, people would draw the same conclusion. But here in Houston, he's learned that he's got to run...... and it doesn't help him, if he makes that decision too late.

Of the two QBs that came out in 2002, the one that reminds me most of Favre, is Joey Harrington. Joey doesn't have the arm that Favre or Carr has, but he's got that never say never attitude, that makes him never give up on a play. he buys time for his offense to make something happen.

It's not a knock on Carr, but so far, when he leaves the pocket, I believe he's thinking of getting out of bounds, or picking up the yards. He might get lucky every now and again with making a big play...... but I don't think it's part of his game.

Like I said, it's not a knock on David..... Peyton, Byron, Palmer, Bledsoe, Kurt..... there are a lot of QBs that make it happen from the pocket. No reason to believe Carr can't.

If Kubiak can make it work with Carr(moving the pocket), I'll admit that I was wrong. But I think Carr will be at his best, if he can be taught to go through his progression(given time) or chunking it when he gets in trouble. There's nothing wrong with throwing it in the dirt if that's where it needs to go.

...good post!!