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What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

HoustonFrog said:
If they are wanting Ferotte then you'd think they woul dbe willing to give up a 2nd for Sage. Geesh...Jackson and Ferotte...how formidable:gun:
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Agreed. IMO, if Childress stays with Jackson, he's done. If Childress decides to pull Jackson in favor of Ferotte, he's done.

I think the Vikes could be a really good team.....if they could solidify the QB position.:)
 
Vikings: "if you will not trade Sage to us, we will sign Ferotte! Smith? Smith? Why are you giggling hysterically? I am going to take my football and go home now."
 
"It's been an interesting offseason," said Rosenfels, who was participating in the team's offseason conditioning program at Reliant Park on Thursday. "As a quarterback, you'd like to have a chance to make a team your own. And this is Matt's team. And I understand that. There's obviously some frustration there.

"But I'm excited for next year. I'm excited to get back to work, and I'm excited to have Kyle Shanahan as a coordinator, because I think he's going to do a great job this year."
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Link

Sounds like he wouldn't mind being traded.
 
infantrycak said:
Link

Sounds like he wouldn't mind being traded.
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I like him, he's very classy. Any other frustrated QB would have complained, but instead Sage says "This is Matt's team. I understand that." And then goes and changes the subject.

If we trade him, it'll be a big loss not only during the game, but off the field as well. He's a great guy.
 
infantrycak said:
Link

Sounds like he wouldn't mind being traded.
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Polo said:
I keep thinking that they'll end up trading Sage...
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AnthonyE said:
I like him, he's very classy. Any other frustrated QB would have complained, but instead Sage says "This is Matt's team. I understand that." And then goes and changes the subject.

If we trade him, it'll be a big loss not only during the game, but off the field as well. He's a great guy.
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One thing that sticks out to me about our organization is although they are going to generally do what's best for the organization they also really look out for the players. It reminds me of possibly trading Carr last year. It sounded like they actually had offers, maybe it wasn't exactly what the Texans would want but at least they'd get something instead of cutting. But the released David so he could go where he wanted, instead of a team he didn't want to play with.

Not saying they are going to release Sage at all, but that they may be more willing to trade him if he (Sage) really likes it and has a great opportunity to succeed. I highly doubt they trade him if they think we're getting a raw deal though.

I agree, Sage is a great player to have on the team. I like him a lot.
 
I don't blame him for being frustrated, and I respect him for being honest about the situation without making it a tense locker room. Sage had the opportunity to start some for us last year, and he played like a good starter. He has the talent and experience to be a good starter in this league in the right situation and he knows it. He also knows his time is ticking before he'll be too old for most teams to consider him as a viable starter (well, maybe the Buccs). Add to that he knows the Vikings offered us fair compensation and we turned it down, and he probably isn't too happy about how the off-season played out.

The problem is Sage is still very valuable to this team as long as Schaub's health and ability are in question. It's like the Vikings offering us four quarters for our dollar, it's a fair value but we wouldn't benefit. On the bright side for Sage, I think he's only under contract for another year or two, so he may be able to find a new home as a free agent that will allow him to compete to start. Until then, the Texans are doing what's best for them by keeping him as a backup, and Sage is classy enough to continue to help us however he can.
 
First things first Sage is with out a doubt a class act player. He also has all the reason in the world to be frustrated with the situation that he is in but he also has to understand that this NFL thing is a BUSINESS and that Gary and the Texans will do what they have to do to put the team in the best possible situation to become a winning team. If that means we have to trade him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick then thats just what it means. I would be OK with that if that is what Gary and Rick decide to do. I don't know about you guys but I have faith in those two to make the right move that I didnt have with Casserly and Capers.:texflag: I would hate to see Sage leave but if it has to happen then it just has to happen.:fans:
 
A team gets a quality QB and person. Sage gets his own team. We get a starter at a need position in 2d and allows even more flexibility in lower rounds. Kids, it is possible we could get a LT, CB, RB starters in 1,2,&3 and quality back ups at OLB, FS and a Smith magic show in 7th. That is without a trade down at #18. I'm still liking the Myers starting center for a 6th move.
 
I believe that that having Sage on your team as a backup makes you "deep" at the position and that he's an asset to our team both on and off the field. I also think that Ole Miss Texan has a very good point about the Texans having a history of trying to accomodate players who they think highly of. The depth at QB is a plus but so is a second 3 or some other similar value. Sage seems happy here but he's a guy who wants to start in this league. That's as it should be and is a credit to Sage. He's happy here but he'd be happier starting here, or somewhere else for that matter. He wants his shot to be "the man" and I think that it's in the Texans best interest to make a deal that gets them value as well as Sage a chance to be prove that he's better than some of the clowns earning a paycheck as an NFL starter.

NFL players do not mention frustration and wanting a chance in an interview if they aren't a factor in their thinking. Remember this is Sage Rosenfels we're talking about, not Terrell Owens or Ocho Cinco in Cincinnati. He's not going to say things just to see the look on peoples faces. He's not going to make waves (even little ones) just for the sake of being the center of attention. If this wasn't an issue he wouldn't have said it. It might even be in there with the Texans blessing to try and restart some of the earlier interest in Rosenfels. When I watch NFL teams work I am always reminded of the book "Dune" where they talk about there being "Plots within plots".

I bet they do their best to find a partner for Sage to start for. This is just my opinion but I think he could probably go up to Green Bay right now and beat Rodgers out of that job. I really believe that. I think he could start for the 49er's tomorrow. He could go to Minnesota and keep every QB on their roster behind him on the bench. He probably thinks that too and wants a chance to prove it.
 
Hervoyel said:
I believe that that having Sage on your team as a backup makes you "deep" at the position and that he's an asset to our team both on and off the field. I also think that Ole Miss Texan has a very good point about the Texans having a history of trying to accomodate players who they think highly of. The depth at QB is a plus but so is a second 3 or some other similar value. Sage seems happy here but he's a guy who wants to start in this league. That's as it should be and is a credit to Sage. He's happy here but he'd be happier starting here, or somewhere else for that matter. He wants his shot to be "the man" and I think that it's in the Texans best interest to make a deal that gets them value as well as Sage a chance to be prove that he's better than some of the clowns earning a paycheck as an NFL starter.

NFL players do not mention frustration and wanting a chance in an interview if they aren't a factor in their thinking. Remember this is Sage Rosenfels we're talking about, not Terrell Owens or Ocho Cinco in Cincinnati. He's not going to say things just to see the look on peoples faces. He's not going to make waves (even little ones) just for the sake of being the center of attention. If this wasn't an issue he wouldn't have said it. It might even be in there with the Texans blessing to try and restart some of the earlier interest in Rosenfels. When I watch NFL teams work I am always reminded of the book "Dune" where they talk about there being "Plots within plots".

I bet they do their best to find a partner for Sage to start for. This is just my opinion but I think he could probably go up to Green Bay right now and beat Rodgers out of that job. I really believe that. I think he could start for the 49er's tomorrow. He could go to Minnesota and keep every QB on their roster behind him on the bench. He probably thinks that too and wants a chance to prove it.
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Good post.

Really there are quite a few teams that Sage could go to.

I'd even say that a return to Miami is possible for Sage.
 
Polo said:
I keep thinking that they'll end up trading Sage...
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i agree 100%..

he wants to go start somewhere and with our history of accomodating good guys coupled with minne's interest (frerotte lol) and our lack of draft picks means im pretty certain that we should stay tuned on draft day..

id be sad ti see him go but would be happy for him and the draft pick :whip:
 
infantrycak said:
Link

Sounds like he wouldn't mind being traded.
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yup. its pretty much a lose lose situation with Sage this year. If he is forced to play and plays well it creates a losing situation going into next year as we would have to make a crucial and painful decision at that point. If he doesn't get to play then I feel his profile and trade value is diminished. Now that he is already saying that he wants to be a starter somewhere, his trade value could only be potentially diminished even further.

all that being said, if they werent offered better than a late 2nd Rounder or very early 3rd Rounder, they might not have gotten the deal they wanted. Maybe they get a better deal down the road but most teams would want a guy in their offseason program if they are giving up early picks for them.

Oh well, I will continue to trust RS in his dealings as he has proven to be relatively shrewd and far more capable than Asserley.
 
Second Honeymoon said:
yup. its pretty much a lose lose situation with Sage this year. If he is forced to play and plays well it creates a losing situation going into next year as we would have to make a crucial and painful decision at that point. If he doesn't get to play then I feel his profile and trade value is diminished. Now that he is already saying that he wants to be a starter somewhere, his trade value could only be potentially diminished even further.

all that being said, if they werent offered better than a late 2nd Rounder or very early 3rd Rounder, they might not have gotten the deal they wanted. Maybe they get a better deal down the road but most teams would want a guy in their offseason program if they are giving up early picks for them.

Oh well, I will continue to trust RS in his dealings as he has proven to be relatively shrewd and far more capable than Asserley.
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Barring some team losing two QBs or the Packers losing Rodgers, etc., in the next couple of weeks, I don't think any team is going to give us a better offer than the Vikings did.

Am I correct in remembering Schaub's cap figure being somewhere around 10 million for 2009? How much of that is guaranteed? Regardless, unless it comes to a worst-case scenario with Schaub, I don't think they'll make a decision on him until 2010, when the option bonus kicks in. Well, actually worst-case scenario overall would be Sage has to play for whatever reason and plays poorly.
 
Hervoyel said:
Maybe waiting to see if Houston might blink and take the 3?
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I think that's a possibility. More I think it might be aimed more at Sage. He feels like he can compete for the starting spot in Minnesota and they look like they are interested in signing Ferrotte. He speaks out enough to possibly jumpstart negoations again. Stretch run to the draft so I wouldn't expect a deal done prior to it.
 
Rex King said:
Am I correct in remembering Schaub's cap figure being somewhere around 10 million for 2009?
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Yes, according to this cached version of Keith's 2009 cap page (google is your friend).

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2009 cap figure = $10.25 million ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$6.95 mil salary + [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$3.3 mil allocated bonus)
[/FONT]
 
Well at some point Kubes is going to have to answer the quetion was it him or was it Elway. That tells me he's going to pick a young guy some draft to put his mark on. If they offer both of the three or someone offers a two...you do the deal.
 
Barring a team coming up with a better trade, I expect Smith to hold until he see what happens I first round. We have focused in this thread about a trade for a back up player. A trade for the #18 is still possible. Depending on how the teams draft and who we pick or don't get to pick will have impact on Sage remaining in a Texans uni imo. If we can't get a solid LT, CB or RB worst case, Smith may decide two 3rds is better than one and Sage on the roster. If Williams is there for example and Smith thinks he can get RB and CB later he might hold Sage and continue to deny a 3rd.

So much is unknown now as it remains very unclear as to who will be there in first or can we get a trade down.
 
Rex King said:
Am I correct in remembering Schaub's cap figure being somewhere around 10 million for 2009? How much of that is guaranteed? Regardless, unless it comes to a worst-case scenario with Schaub, I don't think they'll make a decision on him until 2010, when the option bonus kicks in. .
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The Texans have until Feb 12, 2010 (near the end of the 2009 league year) to decide whether to exercise Schaub's option. If they exercise the option in writing by that date, they can prorate the option bonus over four years instead of three [1/4 of the $10 MM option bonus can be assigned to the '09 cap, even though they have until March 15, 2010 (the following league year) to pay the bonus]. In that case, his cap number is $10.25 MM in '09; $7.8 MM in '10; $9 MM in '11, and $10.95 MM in '12.

There's also an option for the Texans to not pay Schaub's option, in which case his '09 cap number would be $7.75 MM and his contract would terminate on or about March 1, 2010.

If the Texans exercise the option, he will have $3.25 MM of dead money risk for every year of the contract he does not play out, e.g., if they pay him the option and later release him as a cap casualty after the '10 season, there would be $6.5 MM dead money that hits the cap (if there is a cap) when he's released.
 
threetoedpete said:
Well at some point Kubes is going to have to answer the quetion was it him or was it Elway. That tells me he's going to pick a young guy some draft to put his mark on. If they offer both of the three or someone offers a two...you do the deal.
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I believe that young guy was Matt Schaub and that he's in the process of developing him. I think everybody pretty much knows it was Elway. John Elway made Shanahan (and to some extent Kubiak) into "great" coaches the way Hakeem made Rudy T a great coach.

I'm not saying that Gary Kubiak doesn't have a lot going for him from a coaching perspective and we'll get to see that in this and coming years but the question "Was it him or was it Elway" is easily answered and was a long time ago.
 
aj. said:
The Texans have until Feb 12, 2010 (near the end of the 2009 league year) to decide whether to exercise Schaub's option. If they exercise the option in writing by that date, they can prorate the option bonus over four years instead of three [1/4 of the $10 MM option bonus can be assigned to the '09 cap, even though they have until March 15, 2010 (the following league year) to pay the bonus]. In that case, his cap number is $10.25 MM in '09; $7.8 MM in '10; $9 MM in '11, and $10.95 MM in '12.

There's also an option for the Texans to not pay Schaub's option, in which case his '09 cap number would be $7.75 MM and his contract would terminate on or about March 1, 2010.

If the Texans exercise the option, he will have $3.25 MM of dead money risk for every year of the contract he does not play out, e.g., if they pay him the option and later release him as a cap casualty after the '10 season, there would be $6.5 MM dead money that hits the cap (if there is a cap) when he's released.
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Very reasonable for a QB who is going to lead us to Super Bowl five times. He is going to want a bigger contract next time. :cowboy1:
 
Thanks for clarifying, Lucky and aj - as always. Smart and fair contract.

Perhaps picking up Quinn Gray is with a view toward 09 as well as this year. If Schaub stays healthy and does well, I think they'll deal Rosenfels next year, even if his trade value will be diminished. They'll then need a backup, and they would have a potential replacement with some vested interest in Gray. Google is my friend - Boyd is still eligible for the PS this year, and could still be a long-term option, but I don't think he'll be kept if they carry the other three.
 
Rex King said:
Thanks for clarifying, Lucky and aj - as always. Smart and fair contract.

Perhaps picking up Quinn Gray is with a view toward 09 as well as this year. If Schaub stays healthy and does well, I think they'll deal Rosenfels next year, even if his trade value will be diminished. They'll then need a backup, and they would have a potential replacement with some vested interest in Gray. Google is my friend - Boyd is still eligible for the PS this year, and could still be a long-term option, but I don't think he'll be kept if they carry the other three.
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I don't think Sage will have ANY trade value next year, because I think he will be an unrestricted free-agent next year. If he is, the Texans won't have any say so over who he signs with, and won't get anything for him.
 
vtech9 said:
I don't think Sage will have ANY trade value next year, because I think he will be an unrestricted free-agent next year. If he is, the Texans won't have any say so over who he signs with, and won't get anything for him.
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He has two years left on his deal so he could very well be traded after this up coming season.
 
vtech9 said:
My mistake then. I thought this was his last year. I looked for contract info on him, but couldn't find anything.
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Any time you want contract info google the name and rotoworld. They list the overall value and term. There is then a details button which will provide more information. Their info isn't perfect on the salaries, bonuses but it is usually within the ballpark and the term is correct.
 
After thinking about the Sage situation, I couldn't help but go back to Schaub, isn't he the real question? I mean if Schaub is not ready to go from day one, then no way do we deal Sage or any other QB. But I think what it all comes down to is , is Matt the man or not? and can he play, is he 100%. If he is then I have no doubt Gray can back him up just fine. I'm rambling, but do you see what I'm saying?
 
TK_Gamer said:
After thinking about the Sage situation, I couldn't help but go back to Schaub, isn't he the real question? I mean if Schaub is not ready to go from day one, then no way do we deal Sage or any other QB. But I think what it all comes down to is , is Matt the man or not? and can he play, is he 100%. If he is then I have no doubt Gray can back him up just fine. I'm rambling, but do you see what I'm saying?
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Think about the past two years for Kubiak.

In the first year, he gets stuck with a starter and would love to go to the backup but the backup is hurt. And the backup's backup is Bradlee Van Pelt so he can't take out HWWNBN.

The second year, his starter gets hurt and his backup goes in and he's one play away from having Craig Nall or Shane Boyd at the helm and neither guy was with the team on the first game of the season.

One year, Sage was hurt and the other year Matt was hurt.

I don't think Sage gets dealt and it's because of the past two years and how close we've been to the 3rd stringer each of those years.

Do I think Matt is the man? Yes. I do. After re-watching several of our games last year, I think he's the man. But I don't think that has anything to do with dealing Sage because anyone can get hurt and Sage gives us an opportunity to win even if Matt gets hurt. I think that Matt gives us a better chance to win but Sage gives us a better chance to win than most backups.
 
TK_Gamer said:
After thinking about the Sage situation, I couldn't help but go back to Schaub, isn't he the real question? I mean if Schaub is not ready to go from day one, then no way do we deal Sage or any other QB. But I think what it all comes down to is , is Matt the man or not? and can he play, is he 100%. If he is then I have no doubt Gray can back him up just fine. I'm rambling, but do you see what I'm saying?
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I would have to say I have no doubt that Sage could back him up (drawn from experience). I would also have to say that approaching Gray's "potential" without having doubt would be quite cavalier. I have no doubt that if an "unproven" backup QB is asked to step in and take the reigns...........and the season turns out a disaster, most of those advocating the trade of Sage would be the same complaining the most of having to go back and "start from scratch." IMHO
 
Yet Smith did not tell Minnesota that Sage was off the table. To me this means he is trade available for right deal. To me that means Kubes thinks Schaub will be able to go game 1. It also means Smithiak thinks Gray can be the #2 especially with some time under Texans coaches. The moves to strengthen Rb in off season and to get one in draft regardless of round +hopefully a LT, should increase QB chance to remain in game. To me if a "deal" meets Smith's requirements, Sage is gone.
 
badboy said:
Yet Smith did not tell Minnesota that Sage was off the table. To me this means he is trade available for right deal.
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How do we know what Smith did and didn't tell Minnesota? To this point, I'm not aware that either franchise has even acknowledged the discussions.

But I do agree that since the Texans were reported to be willing to take a 2 for Sage, they've got to be convinced that he'll be ready to go from day 1.
 
ChampionTexan said:
How do we know what Smith did and didn't tell Minnesota? To this point, I'm not aware that either franchise has even acknowledged the discussions.

But I do agree that since the Texans were reported to be willing to take a 2 for Sage, they've got to be convinced that he'll be ready to go from day 1.
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We know an offer was made. Kubes said there was. He did not say Smith said "We will not trade Sage". See paragraph 5. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/5667114.html
 
CloakNNNdagger said:
I would have to say I have no doubt that Sage could back him up (drawn from experience). I would also have to say that approaching Gray's "potential" without having doubt would be quite cavalier. I have no doubt that if an "unproven" backup QB is asked to step in and take the reigns...........and the season turns out a disaster, most of those advocating the trade of Sage would be the same complaining the most of having to go back and "start from scratch." IMHO
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I don't know that I'd say that's fair. Could trading Sage backfire on us if Matt got hurt? Yes, of course it could. I can only speak for myself and a relative handful of people who I have heard express this sentiment but I would not complain about the trade after the fact if this put us in a bad spot on the short term. It's a calculated risk and I know it. The handful of other people I've spoken with about this also seem to understand the way it works. I "believe" that most Texans fans talking about trading Sage to improve the team in other places understand that you take your chances and that there could be down side to any deal.

Some people are going to complain no matter what the Texans do. I have a pretty good feel for the board (I think) and I don't see all the people who climb out on a ledge at the first sign of a problem over on the "Trade Sage!" side. I think they're pretty evenly distributed. There are plenty of knee jerks over on the "Start Rosenfels!" side too.
 
Anybody think about the most recent QB acquisitions (two guys) and how they match up, stylistically, against Sage and Schaub?

Sure is interesting...

I wonder if it's a sign that Kubiak wants or needs more athleticism from the QB?
 
Hervoyel said:
I believe that young guy was Matt Schaub and that he's in the process of developing him. I think everybody pretty much knows it was Elway. John Elway made Shanahan (and to some extent Kubiak) into "great" coaches the way Hakeem made Rudy T a great coach.

I'm not saying that Gary Kubiak doesn't have a lot going for him from a coaching perspective and we'll get to see that in this and coming years but the question "Was it him or was it Elway" is easily answered and was a long time ago.
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Actually, it was Terrell Davis. Elway had been to Super Bowls before and lost. But that's a different discussion.

Kubiak has been around enough successful systems, in SF (S/B XXIX) and DEN (two S/Bs) to have picked up enough knowledge on how to assemble one here.

I'm convinced that Kubiak (after having been one play away from having to start a 3rd stringer for two seasons in a row) is just paranoid enough to keep all four guys around - at least this season. Now if someone makes us an offer we can't refuse... like a 1st round pick or a 2nd and a 5th let's say... maybe he rolls the dice and lets Sage go. But what are the odds of someone offering that kind of deal for Sage unless they intend for him to start.

Minnesota's deal was insulting if you think about it. They have 8 picks this draft and all they offered was their extra 3rd round pick. I don't blame Smithiak for saying "no".

Wait till pre-season when the injuries start occurring. The offers will get better and we'll look a lot smarter.
 
The Vikings were not awarded any compensatory picks, so this post of March 5, 2008 8:24 pm appears to be accurate:


WHERE THE Vikings PICK IN THE 2008 DRAFT???

This list is subject to change. For one, compensatory picks have yet to be awarded. But, as it stands today, here are the Vikings’ picks (Updated to include the second 6th-rounder):

ROUND 1: 17th

ROUND 2: 16th

ROUND 3a: 10th*

ROUND 3b: 19th

ROUND 4: 18th

ROUND 5: 17th

ROUND 6a: 16th

ROUND 6b: 27th$

ROUND 7: 2nd^



*Acquired from Denver in a 2007 draft-draft trade.

$Acquired from Jacksonville for WR Troy Williamson.

^Acquired from St. Louis in 2006 trade for OL Adam Goldberg. The Vikings sent their 2008 7th-round pick to the N.Y. Jets as part of the 2006 trade that brought QB Brooks Bollinger.
 
you know I got to looking at this thing again & couldn't help but ask myself would Atlanta trade two of their three 2nd rd. picks to Houston to get Matt Schuab back? they could then use the 3rd overall pick to address the run defense with Dorsey or LT/RT with Long. they would still have the 34th pick aquired from Oakland to address CB (Reggie Smith, Justin King or Brandon Flowers). the Texans could then take bpa #18 & address both CB & OT with #37 (Atlanta) & #48 (originally Houston).

whatcha think? Sage would be the starter with Quinn Gray back-up, unless of course Kubiak signed away his lifeblood to keep #8 (Schaub) :play:
 
infantrycak said:
Just curious, where did you see this reported?
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Which part, the "no" part or the 8 picks part? Okay, dumb question on the "no" part; that's obviously common knowledge.

On the 8 picks part, I "Googled" Minnesota Vikings 2008 draft picks and got several hits. I got my info from The Sporting News mock draft - the only site I know of, so far, that's done all seven rounds.

The Vikes have an extra 3rd round pick from Denver (#73 overall) and an extra 6th round pick from Jacksonville (#193 overall). They actually have two 7th rd picks; their own, which the Raiders ended up with and the #209th pick, from the Rams.
 
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