What is Sage's value?--Sage Frustrated

[Texanmike02]

You can substitute Schuab's name for Sage's in any part of your argument. IMHO, neither has shown to be any better than the other.

But I'm with you, Sage is the only person on our team, that might get us a second(that we could stand to lose anyway). I agree that a team should have a capable back-up, but he's the back-up.

Kubiak did a good job finding Sage, I trust he can find us another quality back-up. Getting a second for Sage is just good business.....

Heck, I'll take Minnesota's two thirds. Or a third this year, and next years second.

I agree with you about Schaub. The difference is I don't think we have seen the best Schaub has to offer. We don't know what his ceiling is, this is his first dance... but we do IMHO know what Sage's is. If Schaub has shown us his best we'll know soon enough and its time to move on. If sage were the 3 year vet who had started 8 games and never seen a ton of PT and I didn't feel like I knew what he had.. then I'd be saying to trade Schaub. One thing I'm not is biased. I just want the best team on the field. I don't have an agenda like some seem to here. I just want a winner and I look objectively at the team and give you my .02.

Mike

 

[Joe Texan]

If we needed a back up QB, which we will if some of yal were coach, how much would we have to spend to get one, right now we are in no position to take a player with 3 years experience at trade it in for a rookie that can't tie his shoe. GK is a QB coach so he has Sage for a reason. We are sitting pretty in the control room it will be great in 08

 

[badboy]

Wow, I just got caught up on this thread. Do other MB posters argue like we do? Anyway, here is the latest rumor that I am starting. Vikings offer their #1 this year and # 2 next year for Demeco Ryans. Hey Zach Diles can play MLB and we just signed Bentley for OLB.

 

[HoustonFrog]

Wow, I just got caught up on this thread. Do other MB posters argue like we do? Anyway, here is the latest rumor that I am starting. Vikings offer their #1 this year and # 2 next year for Demeco Ryans. Hey Zach Diles can play MLB and we just signed Bentley for OLB.

NO WAY I'd do that!!Draft picks....you never know what you will get.. and you have a proven, YOUNG commodity in Ryans who is also a leader. You can't teach that stuff or just replace it. He is essential to keeping with the program.

 

[bah007]

I dont think trading DeMeco is an option.

 

[SheTexan]

I do believe the TEXANS would have a fan revolt, if they traded Demeco. He is a ray of light we have all hung on too, and has proven his worth to the team. NO WAY will they trade Meco!!!

 

[Dallas_Texan]

I'm pretty sure he was joking about trading Demeco....calm down! We don't want this thread going another 10 pages!

 

[badboy]

I'm pretty sure he was joking about trading Demeco....calm down! We don't want this thread going another 10 pages!

Thanks for seeing that I said I was starting a rumor..

 

[El Tejano]

Thanks for seeing that I said I was starting a rumor..

And if I'm not mistaken it was a sarcastic rumor at that. Right?

 

[GP]

Name them. Every QB has some flaws, but what are you asserting as his?

I've been re-telling this over and over. I ought to make it my signature.

1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage. Watch the film. Watch the opening game of the year, of Schaub, and he looks like a million bucks...he's got the crisp footwork in that opening game. BUT...as games and weeks drifted by, you can see he's slowing down (minor injuries or getting banged up a bit the first few weeks). Whatever it was, you can see that Schaub is barely getting back into his final drop step and the pass rush is on him. I might have to somehow post side-by-side footage of Sage and Schaub to show you what I mean (or find similar drop-steps between the two QBs and time it on a stop watch). There has just been a lethargic trudging of the footwork by Schaub as the season wore on...and you can't do that in today's NFL. Our sack numbers are down, but our knock-downs are what's killing Schaub. From the first two games where Schaub seemed to be able to eek out a scramble and get the pass away--and we remarked at how DC would have taken a sack on it--I personally began to see Schaub roll out and just not have the wheels or gas to escape the defender long enough to throw the ball...resulting in the blindside hits and the costly fumbles at inopportune times.

2. How many times have we seen Schaub get blindsided on a pass play? Enough to see him on the bench in a groggy heap. I personally feel, from the TV angle (and we know that TV angles sometimes don't tell the truth) that he should have seen some of those guys bearing down on him because it seemed to me that the defender was level with Schaub's peripheral vision. Contrast this to Sage, who in one game I remember(vs. Broncos maybe?) felt the blindside heat (from behind, even!) and just barely nudged up into the pocket with a slight step forward while keeping his poise and balance...it was enough for him to throw the ball down the field and make a great play with one of our WRs. To me, and this is just my opinion here, Schaub is physically slower with his footwork as the season progressed, as well as slower or delayed in his adjustments in the pocket, and the way he scrambles. Again: He did great the first game, and I really thought he was The Real Deal...but the season wore on and he just looked (to me) as if he was very rusty and sloppy. He looked like a QB who was forcing it.

3. Joe Texan has mentioned something that I also noticed: Schaub's passes seem to have a different trajectory on them than Sage's. I saw a lot of sailing passes, even the passes to a wide open Kevin Walter who DID catch it (it was a good "read" by Schaub) but Walter could have scored if the ball had not sailed on Schaub, which is on Schaub. In addition, in a similar play, I remember the pass to the corner of the end zone where a wide-open WR was missed badly by Schaub (Walter or Anderson, I think). I mean, you just don't miss it THAT badly. Schaub slaps his helmet with both hands, not believing he missed it that badly. There's just something this past season, with Schaub's touch, that is weird. He did hit AJ in stride vs. the Saints on a great TD pass, but when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that? I waited for it, and never found it. I think Schaub floats his passes or arcs them a little too much.

4. Bad injuries. Look, I've been ragged hard for saying Schaub is fragile. I have never meant that he's a weakling or that he isn't tough. But the facts are the facts: He's been hit HARD, in the wrong places, and now he's going down the path of being a chronically "banged up" player. Regardless of "how" he has been hurt, he IS hurt. And he's going to be all the more susceptible to the same injuries. It invites a d-coord to blitz us heavy. I can remember the Broncos game where the defense was unsure of whether to blitz Sage or not, due in part to Sage's ability to run the offense well. He was able to burn the defense over and over, and it was causing confusion and doubt in the defense when they would cheat up to show blitz. Having a QB who is standing when the game is over, barely touched, is a huge blessing for the offense--It rewards the o-line and makes them feel confident in their effort, and it causes a d-coord to resort to other tactics which then opens up the running game and other passing plays for the offense.

Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it. I just have not been able to fully drink the Kool Aid on Matt Schaub. I think I drank too much of it with David Carr when he was here.

 

[Lucky]

Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it.

I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

 

[Revolution]

I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

Rep for you!

 

[hadaad]

I've been re-telling this over and over. I ought to make it my signature.

1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage.



3. (snip) in a similar play, I remember the pass to the corner of the end zone where a wide-open WR was missed badly by Schaub (/snip)

4. Bad injuries.

Whether you guys agree with my assessment or not, this is MY assessment. I can continue to get called names and be OK with it. I just have not been able to fully drink the Kool Aid on Matt Schaub. I think I drank too much of it with David Carr when he was here.

My responses to your takes:

1 & 2 are basically the same in my eyes. You think that Schaub's pocket ability is not as good as Sage's, whether it's awareness, agility or just that ESP that some quarterbacks seem to have. I will not dispute that Schaub does not have it. But he does have a good quick read, I believe. And he has shown that he's willing to take the shot to deliver the ball.

3. I do not agree that Schaub is less accurate than Sage. Schaub has some mental thing when he gets close to the end-zone. I will not deny that. It's frustrating but it's something that can be coached out. I believe that truly, and I believe that Kubiak will work on that. It's as obvious to me as Dayne's lack of vision.

4. Didn't Sage hit the IR last year, leaving us with the wonderful Bradlee Van Pelt as a backup? Does anyone call into question Sage's toughness or his resiliency? Honestly, he started five games last year.

Sage had a chance to make his mark against Jacksonville last year. How did he do? 11/18 128 yds 1 td, 1 int. They did win, but I don't think you'd say that it was because of Sage.

I like Sage as our backup quarterback and I'm not interested in a 3rd for him, since he brings stability and strength to a position on my football team. I think we need as much strength as we can get. But i don't think he's better than Schaub or good enough to be our starter.

 

[infantrycak]

1. Schaub does not get away from center and back into his final drop step as quickly as Sage. Watch the film. Watch the opening game of the year, of Schaub, and he looks like a million bucks...he's got the crisp footwork in that opening game. BUT...as games and weeks drifted by, you can see he's slowing down (minor injuries or getting banged up a bit the first few weeks).

Well the explanation was provided by Kubiak several times and you have basically admitted your whole position away. Schaub was in Kubiak's words bruised from thigh to ankle in the middle of the season. By your own admission his footwork was fine earlier.

2. How many times have we seen Schaub get blindsided on a pass play? Enough to see him on the bench in a groggy heap.

And you lose it from the get go--none of the hits that injured him were blind side hits during an attempt to pass the ball. Just because you can come up with one example of Sage doing something doesn't mean Schaub doesn't do it and his pocket presence is very good. No he is not as fleet of foot, but he moves well in the pocket.

3. Joe Texan has mentioned something that I also noticed: Schaub's passes seem to have a different trajectory on them than Sage's.

You seem to be implying as JT did that Sage throws the long ball more accurately and both of you would be wrong. Schaub completed 7 of 12 balls of 31+ yds. Sage completed 3 of 9. That's 55% to 33%.

when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that? I waited for it, and never found it.

Pretty clear you just missed it rather than it not being there.

I think Schaub floats his passes or arcs them a little too much.

I'll take 55% completion on 31+ passes all day long regardless of the arc.

 

[Nighthawk]

For a team without a QB "controversy" this thread is getting awfully long. An independent observer might even conclude . . .

 

[Texan_Bill]

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that.

And not by a heck of a lot... Not enough to say, 'Hey Sage is so much more mobile, we need to use his legs as a weapon'.

 

[Specnatz]

For a team without a QB "controversy" this thread is getting awfully long. An independent observer might even conclude . . .

Well this statement shows you have not read, most have said they would rather keep Sage because he is a very capable backup. Then again you are not one for reading and comprehending.

 

[GP]

And not by a heck of a lot... Not enough to say, 'Hey Sage is so much more mobile, we need to use his legs as a weapon'.

His legs are not a "weapon," but it seems they keep him out of more trouble...

Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

SCHAUB:

QB rating: 87 (compared to Sage at 84, pretty close)
games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)
completion %: 66% (compared to Sage at 64, pretty close)
yards: 2,241 (roughly 600 more than Sage at 1,684)
Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)
TD: 9 (6 less than Sage)
Int: 9 (three less than Sage)
sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)
fumbles: 7 (four more than Sage, but Schaub had two more games)
fumbles lost: 3 (Same as Sage)

SAGE:

QB rating: 84
games: 9
completion %: 64%
yards: 1,684
avg: 7
TD: 15
int: 12
sack: 6
sack yds: 48
fumbles: 4
fumbles lost: 3

------------------

Schaub and Sage are pretty neck-and-neck in stats, with the obvious difference being that Schaub had two more games than Sage and an extra 600 yards. Sage averaged about 187/game...which would put him at about an extra 374 yds. passing for two more games to equal Matt's 11 games. So, Schaub has Sage on the total passing yards by about 225 yds.

My main focus is on sacks and sack yards. Please explain THIS stat away, if you can. That's a number that I think exposes Schaub as being less mobile than Sage pertaining to keeping us from losing lots of ground in field position, as well as being able to keep down-and-distance a manageable figure.

The other categories, except for total yards, is practically EVEN, is it not?

Where is this huge difference between the two QBs? You can "say" we have a starter and a backup...that's an issue of semantics...but I still see two backups competing for a starting job. A job that maybe NEITHER of them are really capable of either earning or keeping for long.

We don't have world-beaters at the QB position. I think we have two guys who are almost the same guy, but in different ways.

Saying a guy has a "higher ceiling" is just pure speculation. The same speculation which landed Schaub in a deal that a lot of people in the media--people you and I lampooned on these boards--questioned when it happened. These same media analysts loved the Schaub deal when we played our first two games, and yet began to grow silent about as the season wore on.

We saw how the media went to the oline and said "How does it feel to be vindicated for the years of being trashed for the sack numbers?" Supposedly, the new QB was showing that the oline was not so bad. Yet, look at the sack numbers and sack yards for Schaub: Who is it that suddenly stopped showing up? The oline or the QB?

And for the ones who say I need to stop mentioning David Carr...I don;t like Carr, I'm very glad he's gone, and I think a lot of people here are repeating history by propping up Matt Schaub when it it looks to me that he's not done anything spectacular yet to warrant such lovig devotion by Texans fans.

We lost two 2nd round picks in back-to-back drafts for him, and a lot of people would be OK with getting a 3rd for Sage? Go figure.

 

[Pantherstang84]

He did hit AJ in stride vs. the Saints on a great TD pass, but when else did we see that sort of timing and precision from Schaub after that?

Let's see....

The Chiefs
Panthers ...


Your assesment is not bad, but geez don't be such a Donnie Downer. There is no way that Matt Schaub = David Carr. If we turn on the wayback machine, we are reminded that 2007 was Schaub's first year as a starter. Schaub even admitted that he needs to step up his conditioning this off season and his vowed to do so.

What is unfair about your assesment is that your equating Rosenfels 6 starts to Schaub's 10. I wonder. Would Rosensel's "foot work" be just as crisp with 10 starts?

Unless his name is Jim Sorgi, the backup QB is the most popular guy on the team. The backup comes in for a few series or games does a decent job then all of a sudden folks start thinking they should be the starter.

I think Schaub underestimated the physical demands of being a full time starter. At the end of the season he recognized that he needed to get in better shape.

I'm willing to give him a chance to do that before I start yelling "Off With His Head!"

With all of that the Texans still went 8-8 the best record in franchise history. Therefore, I tend to believe that Smithiak just might, might mind you, know what in the hell they are doing.

 

[The1ApplePie]

Unless Sage steps up, or Schaub actually figures out how to take a hit, I think we will see another thread like this next year, except maybe with Brady Quinn involved.

Right now, we have two overhyped back up QBs, and no proven starter.

 

[TexansSeminole]

His legs are not a "weapon," but it seems they keep him out of more trouble...

Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

SCHAUB:

QB rating: 87 (compared to Sage at 84, pretty close)
games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)
completion %: 66% (compared to Sage at 64, pretty close)
yards: 2,241 (roughly 600 more than Sage at 1,684)
Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)
TD: 9 (6 less than Sage)
Int: 9 (three less than Sage)
sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)
fumbles: 7 (four more than Sage, but Schaub had two more games)
fumbles lost: 3 (Same as Sage)

SAGE:

QB rating: 84
games: 9
completion %: 64%
yards: 1,684
avg: 7
TD: 15
int: 12
sack: 6
sack yds: 48
fumbles: 4
fumbles lost: 3

The stat that you consistantly leave out when comparing these two QBs is how many dropbacks they each had. How many attemps each quarterback had. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post because acknowledging this ruins your argument(s).

edit: the fact that you wrote in that Schaub has 80 more yards lost in sacks is down right dumb. If you average it Sage avgs 8 yards lost per sack and Schaub averages a little under 8.

I'm starting to change my thinking from before. I orginally thought that you purposefully word things to support your argument, but now I just think your clueless.

 

[GP]

Let's see....

The Chiefs
Panthers ...


Your assesment is not bad, but geez don't be such a Donnie Downer. There is no way that Matt Schaub = David Carr. If we turn on the wayback machine, we are reminded that 2007 was Schaub's first year as a starter. Schaub even admitted that he needs to step up his conditioning this off season and his vowed to do so.

What is unfair about your assesment is that your equating Rosenfels 6 starts to Schaub's 10. I wonder. Would Rosensel's "foot work" be just as crisp with 10 starts?

Unless his name is Jim Sorgi, the backup QB is the most popular guy on the team. The backup comes in for a few series or games does a decent job then all of a sudden folks start thinking they should be the starter.

I think Schaub underestimated the physical demands of being a full time starter. At the end of the season he recognized that he needed to get in better shape.

I'm willing to give him a chance to do that before I start yelling "Off With His Head!"

With all of that the Texans still went 8-8 the best record in franchise history. Therefore, I tend to believe that Smithiak just might, might mind you, know what in the hell they are doing.

I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

 

[GP]

The stat that you consistantly leave out when comparing these two QBs is how many dropbacks they each had. How many attemps each quarterback had. In fact, you'll probably ignore this post because acknowledging this ruins your argument(s).

Well then, YOU go out and find it hoss.

I took enough dadgum time finding THESE stats, and I didn't try to hide any of them at all. If you don't see that I tried to be balanced and fair, then you just have an agenda against me pal.

Jiminy Christmas.

 

[dalemurphy]

I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

It is possible that you are right and Matt Schaub will struggle remaining healthy and will end up not being a better option than Sage...

However, it is very ignorant first to insinuate that Schaub is less mobile than Sage (NOT TRUE). Second, it's very ignorant to conclude that a lack of mobility contributes to the number of sacks and yards lost.

Here's a short list of QBs least sacked per pass attempts:
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Drew Brees

Short list of QBs sacked at very high rates:
Mike Vick
Randall Cunningham with Philadelphia


QBs get sacked because they wait too long to make a decision with the ball. That is not a problem Schaub has. He does take some sacks/hits because he's trying to make big plays downfield and holds the ball too long- however, that's occasional and not what I'd call a problem... And, by the way, that attitude is something that's been sorely missing around here!

 

[Pantherstang84]

I think Rick Smith will be here a lot longer than Kubiak. Kubiak, to me, is a stop-gap HC who stopped the bleeding from Capers but isn't going to get over the top in the long-term here. Just my opinion, much like some people say Schaub has a higher ceiling than Sage.

And I think you're right about Schaub underestimating the wear-and-tear. But I gotta' say that a lot of Falcons fans warned us that Matt has issues with mobility. When I heard those claims, I laughed it off and thought nothing of it. But the sacks and sack yards show the fruit of those warnings.

I have positives about this team. Matt Schaub is not one of them.

Well. I dunno you're believe what you want. However, I think the fact that last year's sack total went drastically down with just a QB change says otherwise.

P. Manning is not very mobile either but he somehow managed kick our butts twice a year.

Your hatred of Kubiak. Is that one of those UT/A&M things?

 

[GP]

Well. I dunno you're believe what you want. However, I think the fact that last year's sack total went drastically down with just a QB change says otherwise.

P. Manning is not very mobile either but he somehow managed kick our butts twice a year.

Your hatred of Kubiak. Is that one of those UT/A&M things?

I'm weird about college football: I actually prefer to root for A&M over UT any day, but I like TTU more because I grew up there and that's who my family raised me to root for. I personally choose to spend the bulk of my time going to WTAMU games (West Texas A&M University), a small college in the panhandle of Texas (where I attended and graduated).

I don't "hate" Kubiak. I just wonder if he's really the guy or not. He should have ditched us for the A&M job...it was perfect for him, for who he is. He feels more like a college coach and less like an NFL head coach (IMO).

When Kubiak keeps Richard Smith as D-coord...it makes me wonder about his ability to stone up.

 

[HoustonFrog]

I'm not going to call you a name, but let me see if I understand what you are saying. Schaub has a higher completion %, lower interception %, plus a higher % of long completions...but Rosenfels is the more accurate passer? You're reaching. And I think you know you're reaching.

Sage is more mobile than Matt. I think most everyone would agree with that. But, most everyone would also agree that Schaub is a better game manager than Rosenfels. At least Kubiak would agree. In a perfect world, Sage should get a chance as a starter, somewhere. But, the NFL isn't a perfect world, and Sage isn't the starter here. Because when all things are considered, Matt Schaub is the better QB.

P.S. It would be nice if you would stop referring to Carr in every post about Schaub. It gets old.

Thank you. I'm starting to wonder whether each of these posts is made to bait or that GP really can just argue in circles all day without reading the reality of it all. After all "pencil whipping" stats is his specialty.

All I know according to him is our HC isn't too good and is short term and that our QB after one season is no good compared to the backup...oh and Carr was the man until it was shown he wasn't..anything else GP?

 

[infantrycak]

Here's some head-to-head stats from nfl.com:

games: 11 (compared to Sage at 9, two more games for Schaub)

Yeah, cuz they play 20 games a season in the NFL. How about this one which you totally overlook--games started with/without AJ. Schaub 5/6--Sage 4/1. But heck I am sure AJ isn't something teams game plan for, but Denver is just shivering trying to figure out whether to blitz Sage.

Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)

That isn't close at all. At 7.8 ypa, Schaub was tied for third in the league with Manning and Favre. 7.0 was Trent Green, Chad Pennington, JP Losman and McNabb territory.

I love how you didn't address how your and JT's seat of the pants criticism on accuracy had no reflection in reality as noted above.

 

[bah007]

SCHAUB:

Avg: 7.8 (Basically a yard more, per pass, than Sage. That's close, also)


SAGE:

avg: 7


------------------

That close differential is the difference between 3rd in the NFL & 15th in the NFL among starting QBs

Just throwin that out there.

 

[Texanmike02]

Even though the stats would lean in my favor of the arguement, you really have to ignore them. The sample size is too small. The only thing that is really meaningful in this arguement is the completion% but it is really questionable if even that is usable. Especially when you throw in the fact that most of Sages games were against bad opponents.

I will tell you what I saw from the two. Schaub made mistakes. Sometimes he made mistakes in the redzone. Schaub did it most of the time with no AJ. He also got very little time to learn the system due to injury. He does throw a catchable ball. He was on target more than Sage was. I've said before though, I don't know what Schaub can be. I do know what Sage can't be. That is our starter for an extended period of time.

Then you point to Sage's ability to get rid of the ball. I don't necesarily see it as a strength in his game because IMHO that is when he throws his ints. He also misses quite frequently. By misses I don't mean he throws incomplete, I mean he throws to the wrong side of a receiver. He doesn't put our guy in a place to move after the catch. Sage had his full compliment of receivers more often than not.

But to me, THIS ISN'T A SCHAUB VS SAGE DEBATE. I don't care who our starter is honestly. I don't want it to be Sage though. This team, as it stands right now, isn't good enough to make the playoffs with Sage at the helm. I don't think Sage is going to get significantly better over the next year or two. I think he's peaked. I don't KNOW if Schaub will get better. Nobody does for sure. He does have some problems but to me they are correctable. Knowing the offense, familiarity with the receivers, better conditioning- are all things you can improve on. If Sage were our only option, I'd say we need to find a new QB. Since he's not... he's expendable to me. That is after all the bottem line. Schaub has upside. Sage doesn't. If we were a team I thought could win 12-14 games then I would look at this completely differently. I would be ok with Sage because we didn't have many pieces to build on. But we're not. We're a team that HOPES to be a bubble team. We hope we're not on the outside looking in when the playoffs start. The addition of a starter who could possibly push us to a 10-11 win team is to me more valuable than a backup who might keep us around in a few games. Its that simple. Maybe that starter needs to be a 2nd, maybe its a 3rd... but both of those rounds will be full of OL/RB talent that can play in this league.

Mike

 

[infantrycak]

That close differential is the difference between 3rd in the NFL & 15th in the NFL among starting QBs

Just throwin that out there.

That would be 3rd and 18th among QB's with 9 or more games (to eliminate the 8 QB's with less than 9 games above Sage).

 

[Texanmike02]

Oh as for sacks. You REALLY can't draw a conclusion from that number. 6 vs 16? Factor in time in the system, missing Andre et al and no stat is meaninful with only a total of 22 iterations.

mike

 

[TEXANRED]

Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.

 

[Texanmike02]

I would still have to think aobut it.

Somebody get the straight jacket. Quick.

Mike

 

[El Amigo Invisible]

Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.

two second rounders please

 

[GP]

Thank you. I'm starting to wonder whether each of these posts is made to bait or that GP really can just argue in circles all day without reading the reality of it all. After all "pencil whipping" stats is his specialty.

All I know according to him is our HC isn't too good and is short term and that our QB after one season is no good compared to the backup...oh and Carr was the man until it was shown he wasn't..anything else GP?

1. I don't care for Kubiak's playcalling, except the opening drive which looks spotless...then it just gets dull and unimaginative leading up to the half. And then it gets worse going into the second half. We look good against teams which are worse than us, and conversely seem to never really threaten vs. teams better than us. You'd think we would be able to sneak up on a few good teams, but I think suspect coaching hinders us. "Maybe" Alex Gibbs and a departed Sherman will help...maybe.

2. I think the two QBs are equal and are not separated by much. A lot of you want to use the "Schaub has a higher ceiling" terminology? Do whatever makes you feel comfy.

3. I never thought Carr was "the man," I just wanted to see what he could do under Gary Kubiak (the guy who makes poopy QBs into superstars, supposedly). I saw. It satisfied my curiosity. I defended Carr because he was "the starter" and I felt he shouldn't be criticized unfairly until we could see what Kubiak could do with him. I guess I've learned to stop believing everything I hear from the Texans P.R. machine as it pertains to who is "the man" and who isn't. And by the way, I don't know of any more than a few posters (Vinny, HookEm, Second Honeymoon, SWTbound) who saw Carr's inevitable demise from his early days here...I would say most posters here had the same optimism I had for Carr. So it doesn't make me the schmuck you're trying to make me out to be.

I nailed the awful Ahman Green signing the night the story broke on the boards, and got nothing but grief. So...I don't get everything wrong.

 

[Texanmike02]

2. I think the two QBs are equal and are not separated by much. A lot of you want to use the "Schaub has a higher ceiling" terminology? Do whatever makes you feel comfy.

Hmm. Well like I've said repeatedly. We don't know what Schaub's ceiling is. We do know that Sage didn't have starter ability at two stops before this one and Kubes doesn't see fit to start him here.

Mike

 

[Malloy]

SCHAUB:

sacks: 16 (Whoa! 10 more than Sage)
Sack yds: 126 (Schaub racked up almost 80 more sack yds)[/COLOR]


SAGE:

sack: 6
sack yds: 48

------------------

My main focus is on sacks and sack yards. Please explain THIS stat away, if you can. That's a number that I think exposes Schaub as being less mobile than Sage pertaining to keeping us from losing lots of ground in field position, as well as being able to keep down-and-distance a manageable figure.

Well if you want to look at the sack yards, let's look at the sack yards.
Schaub got sacked 16 times for a total loss of 126 yards. Thats an average of 7.875 yards pr sack. Sage got sacked 6 times for a total of 48 yards. Thats an average of 8 yards pr sack.

Now, one could argue that Schaub actually handles sacks better and loses fewer yards than Sage. I will refrain from doing that and just concluding that, on average, they lose the same amount of yards on sacks.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

 

[PapaL]

Wow...just wow. This thread is crazy. For arguements sake lets say Schaub comes in next year throws for 4000 yards 35 TD and 8 INTs some yahoo on here is going to say that Sage could have thrown for more. Good grief people.

/thread

 

[Maddict5]

And you lose it from the get go--none of the hits that injured him were blind side hits during an attempt to pass the ball. Just because you can come up with one example of Sage doing something doesn't mean Schaub doesn't do it and his pocket presence is very good. No he is not as fleet of foot, but he moves well in the pocket.

exactly... just off the top of my head i remember a play that GP etc should look at for schaub's pocket presence- his TD pas to dreessen v the saints.. should be on nfl.com ot the HT video page

Unless Sage steps up, or Schaub actually figures out how to take a hit, I think we will see another thread like this next year, except maybe with Brady Quinn involved.

Right now, we have two overhyped back up QBs, and no proven starter.

you really need to go watch a few other teams qb's... we dont have brady or mannings but i would definitely put schaub in the big ben, carson palmer class etc. i know that may sound like rose-tinted glasses but ive watched those guys and i see them do nothing better than schaub does. sage is also a very nice qb too in our system.. but i have some doubts as to whether that would translate as well elsewhere

This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

Wow...just wow. This thread is crazy. For arguements sake lets say Schaub comes in next year throws for 4000 yards 35 TD and 8 INTs some yahoo on here is going to say that Sage could have thrown for more. Good grief people.

/thread

exactly, our passing game was top 10 id guess last year and considering how poorly we ran the ball id look at other areas for us to improve because id call qb and wr strengths on our team. look at the (limited amount of) games where we ran the ball well- carolina, denver, saints off the top of my head and BOTH our qb's looked great.


and for the record, id take a 2nd for sage. i think kubiak can find another guy who can fit this system well

 

[HoustonFrog]

This is the silliest thread I have seen in a while.

Kubiak sucks, Schaub sucks, Carr was the man and Ahman Green sucks. If that were the case for me then I would find another team or another outlet other than this place as we tend not to do stupid here.

QFT!

The problem is you think you are getting somewhere and then the circle starts again with some. Frustrating.

 

[Thorn]

QFT!

The problem is you think you are getting somewhere and then the circle starts again with some. Frustrating.

It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

In any case, whatever anyone’s opinion is, we’ll find out this season what’s what. I sure as hell hope (an unproven) Schaub is the guy.

 

[Maddict5]

Brian Griese-QB- Buccaneers Mar. 4 - 1:11 am et

The Bears received a sixth-round draft pick in 2009 in exchange for Brian Griese.

We'd have to think it's conditional based on starts Griese might make this year, but that's not confirmed. One report out of Chicago said that the Bucs were competing with Houston to land Griese, which is out of left field with Sage Rosenfels there and the Texans adamantly holding onto him.
Source: Chicago Tribune
Related: Bears, Texans

 

[badboy]

I just hope we have a cornerback controversy and a free safety controversy and an OLB controversy and ....

 

[Malloy]

It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

Reminds me of last off-season.. and the one before that.. and the...

 

[Errant Hothy]

Brian Griese-QB- Buccaneers Mar. 4 - 1:11 am et

The Bears received a sixth-round draft pick in 2009 in exchange for Brian Griese.

We'd have to think it's conditional based on starts Griese might make this year, but that's not confirmed. One report out of Chicago said that the Bucs were competing with Houston to land Griese, which is out of left field with Sage Rosenfels there and the Texans adamantly holding onto him.
Source: Chicago Tribune
Related: Bears, Texans

I would take this to mean that the Texans are still taking calls about Sage, and are possible looking at options if they do trade him.

 

[HoustonFrog]

It's the offseason, arguing about Sage and Schaub gives us something to do besides the endless speculation about free agents and the draft.

In any case, whatever anyone’s opinion is, we’ll find out this season what’s what. I sure as hell hope (an unproven) Schaub is the guy.

Sorry, I'm bored to but that is one "controversy" that is manfactured in my mind. Plus it would be easier to debate if people listened or read on one side. It seems like people are just wanting to start something because the Carr threads left.

I agree with point #2.

 

[drewmar74]

I would take this to mean that the Texans are still taking calls about Sage, and are possible looking at options if they do trade him.

I heard Bradlee Van Pelt is available and sitting by the phone.

 

[Goldensilence]

Matt Schaub, 289 attempts, 16 sacks = 1 sack for every 18 attempts. 7.88 yards lost per sack
Sage Rosenfels, 240 attempts, 6 sacks = 1 sack for every 40 attempts. 8 yards lost per sack

Passer rating:
Schaub: 87.2
Sage: 84.8

TD's/INT's
Schaub: 9/9
Sage: 15/12

W/L record.
Schaub: 4/5
Sage: 4/1

Games with AJ.
Schaub, KC, CAR, NO, CLEV, TENN. 3/2 record
Sage, TB, IND, DEN, JAC. 3/1 record.

Looks pretty even to me except Schaub got knocked out of both Titan games and Missed the last month of the season with a shoulder injury.

No way I give up sage, unless maybe for a first. I would still have to think aobut it.

You're kidding right? A career backup who has topped out and someone offers us a first and you're thinking about it?

I know wins are wins but did you even see the statlines for the games we won while Sage was starting WITH AJ?

For the record if we can press it up to a second on draft day cool if not I'd be ok fora third for Sage and Sign Gus Ferrotte.