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What is leadership exactly? im confused.

about the whole "how you react to adversity" thing.. id like to point out Vince Young's reaction to the tough game against A&M. there is a thread about it on the board here somewhere.. pictures of him sitting on the bench looking depressed and such.

And it didnt take 4 years of breaking the sack record under an inept coaching staff that gave him no help either.
 
Hulk75 said:
............Okay stay:rolleyes:
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Yeah dude, I have nothing against you or anyone personally in here. Having differing opinions is what makes the board. What did I say that was so harsh. You can have a winning team and not think the QB is the leader (think Cowboys, 90s, Irvin and E. Smith probably led more than Aikman, who was reserved) and you can have a losing team where you think the QB is keeping the team together despite the losing. I hate to have a board of Carr lovin drones. Hell, I'm the one who has been saying to draft Bush. Have a great day!!
 
bullman said:
CARR is a true leader and I dont think VY will be the leader that Carr is, if vy comes to Houston, he will probably hang with his so called homies, and not be concern about his teamates. Carr is a true family man and a christian. VY should probaly be a reciever because he cant handle the qb position, and cant read defenses. Carr's option will be picked up, so stop crying about getting VY you fairwaether fans! VY should have stayed in college.
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Carr is not a leader--he is a follower--what he is told to do on the field, he does. How many times did Carr buck Capers system-take the 'bull by the horns' and do it his way?...ever, in 4 yrs? What would Capers have done if Carr did his own thing and led the team to victory? And did it again and again- think the players around him would respond in a different way? You betcha. A leader doesn't just follow orders, he gets results, bottom line...how many of you management people walked into a new environment/assignment where everything was made perfect for you or you were not expected to get 'desired' results? It's not that Carr is expected to lead us to a Super Bowl over night, nor should be allowed to be told everything to do--again, that is a follower, not a leader. Leaders take chances--sure, they make mistakes-but they learn from THEM. Early in my management career, I was told there are 3 types of decisions--first, there is the 'right' one and thats great--second, there is the wrong one, OK-learn from it and move forward--third,there is the 'no decsion.' That's the worse decsion because it doesn't tell you what a person has learned/knows-you don't earn respect from your fellow workers when you come face to face with a decision and do nothing. I never criticized a subordinate for taking initiative on their own to make a decision-right or wrong--I could deal with that.

Sorry, but if Carr is a 'true' leader with a 'belly full of fire', he needs to do whatever it takes to get 'desired reults'--one game at a time is he going to be the one who says--"..lead, follow,..just get the heck out of my way!":twocents:
 
Geez - this so simple. If the team wins, the quarterback is a great leader. If they do not, everyone questions his leadership ability. Take the pulse of Indy right now - they are all (ok many) are questioning his leadership ability.
What exactly about Tom Brady makes him a great leader ? Would people say he was a great leader if there were no superbowl trophies? A referees call here or there - "tuck rule" or a missed fg here or there - there are no superbowl trophies and he is not a "great" leader.

Where was everybody saying Vince has "it" and he is a great leader when we lost 12-0 to Oklahoma. That wasn't so long ago was it ?
What a difference a year makes.

I don't recall anyone questioning Carr's leadership abilities when Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with a bad ankle and led the Texans to a victory over atlanta.

Leadership ability does not create W's

W's make you a great leader. Somebody will point out some trait you have that says you are a great leader. It could be quiet, leads by example. Or great emotional leader - something

In the business world, the same can be said about profits.
 
Texan Gal 312 said:
I don't recall anyone questioning Carr's leadership abilities when Banks broke his hand and Carr came in with a bad ankle and led the Texans to a victory over atlanta.
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It was a shoulder inj I thought from the Bills game where a former Texan (posey) sacked him for a safety

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20031130_ATL@HOU

25 yds passing with an int.
DD scored those 2 TD's in the 3rd, maybe he's the leader??

Now I know what your point is that you are trying to make. He had that one heroic run. Applause. But it was a bad move from an instinct standpoint. While scrambling was the right thing to do since he couldn't throw it past the LOS and out of bounds at the same time. So why is he sliding head first, you are a sitting duck, and he almost did not get up. That's what I'm talking about; instincts, making the right decisions, leading by example. The whole warrior thing is old, the equity on the dallas win is gone (I'll probably catch hell for that one). You can only take so much of a (voluntary) pounding before your teammates say get 'em out, sub-conciously, bring in someone who'll take chances 'cuz he's making us look worse than we really are.
 
Tale Gator said:
Leadership is not allowing your team to go 2-14.
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Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders? Seems as though you are focusing on wins not leadership. Wins are influenced by injuries, talent & skills, management decisions, etc. You can have a great leader at QB and lose 16 games to better teams.
 
Tale Gator said:
Clearly you have been stumped - please name some great QB 'leaders' in the NFL that have an 18-46 starting record over their first 4 seasons. Be sure to include those whose winning percentage has gotten worse with experience [season #4 -- 2-14 ~ 14%].

I await your response with bated breath.
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Many names have been mentioned when referencing QBs who didn't have success until a few years into their carreers.
Surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson (to my knowlege), but even more surprised that no one mentions Rich Gannon. He was in his 13th season when he got to Oakland and he lit it up, even taking them to a Super Bowl.
Sure, he wasn't a starter that whole time, but he also wasn't starting from scratch with a horrible offensive scheme and some very dubious OL play...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034
 
Hookem Horns said:
If Carr was a good leader he might be winning.
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If the definition of 'good leader' is creating and implementing a viable NFL offense, manning all of the positions along the OL, drafting and starting a TE that can do anything useful production wise, playing both ways so teams that suck like St. Louis don't put up 14pts in a minute in a half at the end of a game, Stopping Baltimore from marching down the field and kicking a game winner, creating a cross wind that pushes Kris Brown's kicks through the uprights...



YADA YADA YADA...
 
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?
 
tulexan said:
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?
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Thank you, I'm sick of people trying to blame carr for everything, Carr had good stats this season, did you fairweather fans check that out, I dont see nobody being critical of the dl, ol, lb etc. Even Roger Clemens said on ESPN that the Texans should trade down and get more OL. Once again get over it Carr is here to stay, and Kubiak will make him help out out like he did jake Plummer.
Carr 2006!
 
I am so looking forward to that day where Carr plays in an absolutely perfect enviroment--TEs,WR,OL,perfect DF and ST,temps just right,winds ok, etc.,etc. And,most of all, I hope it happens sooner than later and that-unlike last year-I hope the :homer: 's are right!!! We sure missed you all posting during the regular season and I know it wasn't because you jumped off the band wagon.............:brickwall
 
tsip said:
Carr is not a leader--he is a follower--what he is told to do on the field, he does. How many times did Carr buck Capers system-take the 'bull by the horns' and do it his way?...ever, in 4 yrs?
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How many examples of QB's do you have doing this? Manning did it the other night on the punt team refusal--arguably a very poor decision. I recall Staubach doing it in the 70's when he was splitting time with Morton. I have seen Carr many times appeal to Capers to go for it on 4th down. Do you actually have to defy the head coach in order to be a leader? Does it have to be in public? In other words, is your standard of a leader, someone who has no idea of what a chain of command is and an overinflated ego to believe they always know what is right even over the head coach? By the way, where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?
 
Grid said:
I know this has been beat to death.. but people keep dogging on Carr's leadership abilities..and im just wondering where it is coming from. What little blurb or picture do you have that proves he isnt a leader?

Im just wondering what people expect.. I mean.. does he need to go into convulsions of excitement everytime a play is made? Would that prove that he is a leader?

I know..thats stupid..but what is it, exactly, that is lacking? Im sorry but as someone who isnt in the lockerroom.. and isnt a close friend of any of the players.. I cant tell you definitively that he is or isnt a leader. Id like to know what little peice if info I missed that showed that he isnt one.

I honestly think that all these people claiming that Carr isnt a leader.. are incorrectly associating leadership skills with winning. A player can lead his team just fine, but that doesnt mean they will win.. it is still up to the players to play hard, and the coaches to make the right decisions. We know the coaches werent doing their part... So where does it all fall on Carr, exactly?

please.. enlighten me.. im totally in the dark on this whole leadership thing.
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A leader is a person who you look at and you both know and feel that they are going to deliver you to where you want to be. It's not built on blind faith, but performance. A true leader is believed in by the people around them. Now, in the football sense we saw these very comments from Vanderjagt after they kept losing to Indy. He said when he, or other teammates asked Peyton whether they were going to win big games, he would be all wishy-washy, 'if we do this, then maybe that, and blah blah blah' I'm not saying leaders are big rah-rah guys, but you have to be able to say, to your teammates at least, 'we are going to win.' The best recent example is to look at Tom Brady. Everyone on this board knows he isn't as big as Bledsoe, doesn't throw as hard as Bledsoe, and on the practice field I guarantee he isn't anymore accurate than Drew, but his performance on the field has led to those players believing that they will win the game. He is without a doubt a better QB than Peyton because his teammates believe in him and he has the hardware to prove it (along with the defense...)
 
tulexan said:
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense. A lot of teams have players other than the QB as the leader of the offense. The leadership argument to me sounds like ways to bash Carr and elevate Vince Young. Why aren't we asking why Pitts, Johnson, Davis, McKinney, Bradford, Gaffney, or any other player hasn't stepped up to be the leader? Why does Carr have to be the leader of the team?
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The QB touches the ball every play, he makes the calls in the huddle, players can tell from their demeanor how the QB feels. I've been in a huddle and had a QB stammer out a play, that is not confidence inducing. I'm not saying Carr did that, the point is that everyone in the huddle takes their cues from the QB, that's why they need to lead...
The QBs get the most praise when the team wins, so they got to be the leader of the offense
 
'where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?'

...guess you didn't here about the conversation that Mack and VY had after the Missouri game last year , where Mack told VY to do it his way---that's when the Horns took off

...and,as to following orders, you've got to be a pretty rigid individual to not listen to your subordinates---too, I don't think most Mgrs/HC want a "yes" person/player in a key position. I've mentioned before the 3 management styles--(1) stay status quo (2) wait till the problem 'blows up' and try to patch it up or (3) see it ain't workin' and make changes before the bottom falls out...

...there is a bottom line, just a matter of what you will accept on it
 
Meloy said:
Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders? Seems as though you are focusing on wins not leadership. Wins are influenced by injuries, talent & skills, management decisions, etc. You can have a great leader at QB and lose 16 games to better teams.
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You're not judged as a leader by what happens to you one time, its how you respond that matters. That's the unsettling fact in this matter, no matter what the Texans do with the Carr, trade or play, we will not know how he answers this adversity until next season; hope it's a positive answer...
 
tsip said:
'where are the examples of VY telling Mack Brown to stick it?'

...guess you didn't here about the conversation that Mack and VY had after the Missouri game last year , where Mack told VY to do it his way---that's when the Horns took off
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What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?

...and,as to following orders, you've got to be a pretty rigid individual to not listen to your subordinates---too, I don't think most Mgrs/HC want a "yes" person/player in a key position. I've mentioned before the 3 management styles--(1) stay status quo (2) wait till the problem 'blows up' and try to patch it up or (3) see it ain't workin' and make changes before the bottom falls out...

...there is a bottom line, just a matter of what you will accept on it
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Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?
 
The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players. - Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

It has always been one of my favorite quotes and kind of frames my take on Carr. It is pratically impossible for a fan to measure leadership in a sports team environment, but for some who have been involved in sports at a level outside of HS you can get a pretty good feel of how units react to certain players.

I do not see Carr as an impact person from a leadership standpoint - postively or negatively. That does not make him a bad guy or bad player, but once again it raises a question of what in the heck did we pay for when we signed him? I often saw a disinterested player, bordering on apathy this season. Has he been knocked around, heck yes. Do the Texans still pay him, heck yes.

My fingers are crossed that we will finally get some exponential return on investment because no one thought that the total cost of ownership was going this high.
 
infantrycak said:
What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?



Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?
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First, you are talking in extremes, Second, why do you keep bringing up VY--I thought the talk was about Carr--what does VY have to do with Carr being or not being a leader?

Third, I'm talking about Carr seeing the opposing defense doing something on the field that leads him to believing he can make a big play, so he changes the play--or maybe a WR tells Carr he can beat a defender, so he changes the play. No, I'm not talking about changing the way the world exist, or Carr bucking the system, or dishing the HC. I'm talking about the few times during the year when Carr sees an oppurtunity to make a big play and takes it upon himself to make that decision.

I'm sorry you feel the need to have everyone document their post (you certainly don't), insert exaggerated trains of thought that have no basis, and feel threaten by those that have another opinion. It's kind of like I post that the sky is sure dark today and you come back with 'you need sources to back up your belief that the sky is falling.' Hey, a forum is just a forum.
 
Go back and look at my inquiry again. You will see I asked for examples and even spotted you a couple from NFL QB's and also asked for examples from VY if they exist since if the conclusion is Carr can't hack it, he is the likely replacement. That's a discussion--you assert something, someone asks a question and a discussion ensues. Sorry you feel put upon by a discussion to clarify your opinion.
 
Meloy said:
Uh wouldn't your statement indicate all players on the team failed as leaders?
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If the Houston Texans were Voltron David Carr would be the head -- as everyone knows you can't be successful without a good head on your shoulders.

m8kzew.jpg
 
michaelm said:
Many names have been mentioned when referencing QBs who didn't have success until a few years into their carreers.
Surprised that no one has mentioned Brad Johnson (to my knowlege), but even more surprised that no one mentions Rich Gannon. He was in his 13th season when he got to Oakland and he lit it up, even taking them to a Super Bowl.
Sure, he wasn't a starter that whole time, but he also wasn't starting from scratch with a horrible offensive scheme and some very dubious OL play...

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1034
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What about the senior Manning? He was a heck of a QB with the Saints despite what the numbers say. Gee, no talent around him. Hmmmmm.......
 
Erratic Assassin said:
A leader would be a coach on the field. He would find ways to keep his teammates calm in high pressure situations. The way Joe Montana was pointing out celebrities to his teammates during the Superbowl. The way Jim Kelly didn't quit after the Oilers had him down 35 to nothing.

Most importantly, he would inspire confidence. He would not be pouting on the sidelines the moment something goes wrong.

Compare the way Vince Young remained calm all year when the game was on the line while Mike Brown looked like he was ready to wet his pants. Vince appears to be more of a leader than his coach.

Of course Vince is surrounded by superior talent and David Carr isn't. It's easy to feel confident when you're winning all the time (and no Superman doesn't do it by himself). Let Vince go through 3 or 4 consecutive losing seasons where he spends the entire game every game running for his life and we'll see if he still exudes confidence.
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Jim Kelly did not play in the second half in that particular game, it was Frank Rich? or whatever his name is.
 
tulexan said:
I still am confused why Carr has to be the leader of the offense.
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I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'
 
southtexan said:
Jim Kelly did not play in the second half in that particular game, it was Frank Rich? or whatever his name is.
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Frank Reich, who also had the biggest comeback in college history on his resume. Jim Kelly was out because his leg had been broken the week before when he was playing the Oilers at the Astrodome.

And now I'm going to go :crying: after having to remember my single worst moment as an Oilers fan.
 
Tulip said:
Jim Kelly was out because his leg had been broken the week before when he was playing the Oilers at the Astrodome.
.
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A memorable game for me since I took my (then) 70-something year old football fanatic mother to her one and only NFL game to see live.

I can still see that play. Kelly went down between the hashes deep in the west end of the field - somewhere between home plate and the pitcher's mound. The crowd was a bit mean ... cheering wildly when he was hurt. It was a Sunday Night Prime Time game on ESPN so everyone was a bit primed. The Dome was rockin that night.

Actually, Kelly only sprained his knee and he returned to action three weeks later for the AFC championship game at Miami. Reich started the infamous Wild Card game against the Oilers and the Divisional round game against Pitt.
 
If you read the SI edition regarding the Rose Bowl aftermath there was an article that mentioned a certain someone who would stay up late reviewing game film as well as practice film often. If he noticed anyone slacking at a past pratice he would get up in their face the next day and let them know about it. Hint, it was not a UT coach nor anybody from the USC side.

Leadership is not something that just comes out of the sky...you have to earn it. Its more than just trying to convince a coach to go for it on 4th down. You can debate it all you want, but stories like this are not made up and whoever gets this guy will be getting a foundation...
 
aj. said:
Leaders emerge.
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Agreed. Every team is different and the ingredients are constantly changing. Look at what happened to Philly by introducing TO to the mix. I do not believe anyone would have questioned McNabb's leadership until the verbal fracas.

VY has shown it at the collegiate level and this trait is part of the larger package and that entire package will need to be raised to a whole other level when he gets to the NFL. I think he has it.
 
Once we get this leadership thing out of the way, can we move on to something easier? I'm thinking of something along the lines of proving Fermat's last theorem in three dimensional space or proving the existence of God.
 
Runner said:
Once we get this leadership thing out of the way, can we move on to something easier? I'm thinking of something along the lines of proving Fermat's last theorem in three dimensional space or proving the existence of God.
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No sweat let me go get my lava lamp, a twelve pack of Milwaukee's Best (RedBadge), a black light and the Riders on the Storm single first. :)
 
aj. said:
I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'
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I can respect this take, AJ, because it is clear to the reader that you are not a Vince-maniac, neither are you a "Carr-homer:" you simply want what's best for the team and would like to see Carr paid for what he has done, not what he might do given [insert change that must occur].

That said, I am not sure your take on "QB competition" is the answer. It seems presumptuous to assert that virtually any starting QB in this league right now plays to his level because of the threat of "competition" for his post. I would point to successful coaching, playcalling, etc. as being more relevant attributes, which you cannot deny: the Texans have not given Carr.

But sticking to your competition argument: is it really feasible to draft a Vince Young and kill off a good third of our team's salary cap at the QB position, for the sake of competition? Or do you intend to bring in a cheaper veteran, in which case I ask you, who? We had a veteran, "Super Bowl winner" in Banks and I think we know what he is worth. We have Europe league MVP Dave Ragone, who didn't play this year because he was a joke in practice (and yes, I have that from people who sat through every practice this year.)

I am simply asking who would you like us to bring in to compete with Carr? That is not a slam on any of your opinions, just a question for my own education and for discussion.

infantrycak said:
What you seem to be describing is a coach adapting to a player's strengths, not the player telling the coach what to do. Do you have any kind of a link for a better description of what transpired?

Giving feedback to the coach (a) isn't what you were suggesting and (b) is something we have virtually no idea about. We do know Carr went to the Texans at the end of last season about changes that needed to be made. It appears the Texans went almost the exact opposite of what Carr wanted in the transition to Pendry. Basically though we have no idea how much Carr told Palmer, Capers and Pendry about how he would like things run. Once again, are you suggesting Carr is only a leader if he told the staff to stick it and started calling his own plays in the huddle and are you suggesting Young has ever defied, i.e. refused to follow, Mack Brown's directives?
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Carr was very frustrated with the playcalling both this year and last and repeatedly asked the coaches to alter it. He got his wish against Arizona when they let him call the plays in the first half and put up 24 points (against a crappy D, I know, but still, how many other crappy Ds did we make look like Pro Bowl units this year).

There is a chain of command in this league and what you are describing, tsip, is not "taking the bull by the horns" but anarchy. Players who outright refuse to do what coaches are told end up traded or on unemployment. I too would like to see a link of the news story at least that describes "Vince sticking it to Mack," because until I see at least that, I am going to assume you are completely distorting it.
 
aj. said:
I can give you about 8 million reasons why in about two weeks....and another 20 million over the past four years. If you are going to pay a guy like a top ten QB, then he needs to be one. If VY is picked #1 overall and the Texans are still sub-500 after his first 59 starts then you can bet he will be getting railed just the same.

I only played through HS, but to me the quarterback is the de facto leader of the offense. When you are picked #1 overall, there are expectations and in hindsight, Carr wasn't worthy of the #1 overall. No, it's not his fault and he's not a bad guy because of it. He's a multi-millionaire who's being questioned about why he should continue to receive more millions by being the starting QB for the Texans. Should he receive carte blanche and a get out of jail free card just because he's a good guy, hasn't been given a fair shake in some opinions, or just because he has potential? No. Carr has never had to compete for his job and that is one of the single worst decisions this franchise has made to date. Let him compete for the job with a legitimate #2 and let the cards fall where they may. I want the best QB in there whether it's Carr, Vince or anyone else who can lead this team deep into the playoffs. The blind loyalty displayed by the Vince homers is surpassed only at times by those who want to keep Carr just because he 'hasn't had a chance.'
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But there are several examples of successful teams where the QB has not been the leader. Usually the leader of a team is one of the veterans who have been on the team for a long time and are well respected by everyone. NFL veterans are not going to accept a rookie coming in and being the leader of the team when they have been in the league for 10 years. Big Ben was publicly criticized by Alan Faneca when he said "Do you want to go work with some little young kid who's just out of college?". Big Ben obviously has more respect on the team now, but I doubt that he is the leader of the team. If I had to guess I would say that the leader is Jerome Bettis. Marshall Faulk had been the leader in the late 90's and early 00's for the Rams. Sure, there are a lot of teams that have the QB as the leader, but it is not something that is a requirement for a team.
 
tulexan said:
But there are several examples of successful teams where the QB has not been the leader. Usually the leader of a team is one of the veterans who have been on the team for a long time and are well respected by everyone. NFL veterans are not going to accept a rookie coming in and being the leader of the team when they have been in the league for 10 years. Big Ben was publicly criticized by Alan Faneca when he said "Do you want to go work with some little young kid who's just out of college?". Big Ben obviously has more respect on the team now, but I doubt that he is the leader of the team. If I had to guess I would say that the leader is Jerome Bettis. Marshall Faulk had been the leader in the late 90's and early 00's for the Rams. Sure, there are a lot of teams that have the QB as the leader, but it is not something that is a requirement for a team.
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Yeah, but when there is no obvious leader on the team, people will automatically look at the #1 overall pick QB.
 
IMO, the team takes on the personality of the coach. We've all heard it before (in football, even in business, in the military, etc.) Capers just didn't have much of a personality.

If you look for team leaders on this team, they were on defense. Sharper, Glenn, and now (like it or not) Walker. In order for a leader to emerge, there should be some kind of collective identity.

Since the team didn't have much of an identity, I think that Carr wasn't given a chance to lead. My point is that the jury's still out on Carr's leadership abilities. While I think that VY should be the future of the franchise, I don't think that "because VY's a leader and DC isn't" is a real good reason.
 
I like what John Fox has been doing. I saw on ESPN how John Fox chooses a different player each week to address the team and give a motivational speech. By doing this, he makes each player accountable for the entire team and creates a collective leadership rather than a single player.
 
coreyvice said:
I think that Carr wasn't given a chance to lead. .
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Everyone gets a chance to lead, every minute of every day in some way, shape, or form.

Leaders emerge in times of adversity.
 
aj. said:
Everyone gets a chance to lead, every minute of every day in some way, shape, or form.
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That reminded me of an interesting story I heard at the start of the 2004 season. Pendry was new here and he had taken over as o-line coach. In an attempt to add some hustle and aggression to our o-line, he mandated that all lineman run up to the line at the break of the huddle. There are a couple of teams that do that. I think it really looks like a go-get-em attitude; I don't know if it affects play or not. Anyway, they had to drop that idea because during pre-season and training camp practices one of our o-lineman could never get to the line with the rest of them. He was always one or two steps behind which made the unit look rag tag and disorganized (looking back, I guess that was a portent of the future).

I throw this out here as an example. It seems it is a very minor thing, but did the lagging player show lack of leadership? It's interesting, because that player is considered by many, if not most, on this board as our best o-lineman.
 
Runner said:
I throw this out here as an example. It seems it is a very minor thing, but did the lagging player show lack of leadership? It's interesting, because that player is considered by many, if not most, on this board as our best o-lineman.
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I would say no, if it shows anything it was that he was not in shape. Now if he was lagging because he thought the "ritual" was sophomoric then his lack of buying in would be a ding in my opinion. Especially if he did not bring any other ideas to the table for another ritual that could foster Oline unity.
 
Kaiser Toro said:
I would say no, if it shows anything it was that he was not in shape. Now if he was lagging because he thought the "ritual" was sophomoric then his lack of buying in would be a ding in my opinion. Especially if he did not bring any other ideas to the table for another ritual that could foster Oline unity.
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I don't know the reason; it seems so simple to do. What is it, 5 steps? Everybody else bought in.

I thought somebody was doing it this weekend - Indy or Pittsburgh maybe?


I'm hoping nobody is going to say he was the leader because he did it is way instead of the coach's. :(
 
That Brady, he sure should have been a better leader in the playoffs. I mean even though their talent level was down, the Patriots should have been led by Brady to win every game.

Payton Manning is not a leader, he just throws the ball and tries to outsmart you.

Dan Marino didn't win a Super Bowl, he's not a leader. Nor is any other Hall of Famer that didn't win a Super Bowl.

That Trent Dilfer....now there's a leader.
 
I will paraphrase what some people said and that I agree with

Leaders:
someone that the team believes in no matter what the situation is.

like someone said Leaders emerge .. I totally agree.

With that said.

I will give defense to Carr.
Capers offense IMO.. left the training wheels on him. Due to no offensive line.. they "protected" him by runing draw playes over and over on 3rd and long(we all know how predictable the playcalling was).. I can't remember a time when Carr changed a play at the line of scrimmage and it wasn't a run over the left side.. Lack of talent around him (i.e. street freeagents for 2 years) hurt his progress.

I also don't know if Capers and his staff didn't trust David and if that is the case that is why the "training wheels" were left on him.. I don't know ... All I know is Eli Manning is calling plays at the line of scrimmage.. pointing out just like his brother does.. and only time I have seen that with Carr the play is the same.. run to the left..
 
SESupergenius said:
Dan Marino didn't win a Super Bowl, he's not a leader. Nor is any other Hall of Famer that didn't win a Super Bowl.
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Interesting piece of trivia on ESPN today. Only 24 QB's have won superbowls. Maybe acting as if QB's winning SB's is the benchmark is aiming just a tad bit high.
 
A couple excerpts from an interesting article


Let's take a look at some of the greatest running backs who have ever played the game and how they did when it comes to the Super Bowls which, after all, is why they play the games. O.J. Simpson never even played in one. Eric Dickerson didn't win one. Negative for Barry Sanders too. Emmitt Smith won a bunch but he also had Troy Aikman. Walter Payton didn't win a Super Bowl until the Bears had one of the best defenses in league history in 1985. Gale Sayers, the guy who Bush is most often compared to, never even played in a playoff game! How about some of the most productive runners from recent years. Jerome Bettis? Curtis Martin? LaDainian Tomlinson? No, No and No.



However from 1993 to 2001 seven of the nine Super Bowl's were won by teams quarterbacked by former 1st round picks, and that doesn't include Brett Favre who went 33rd overall and was later traded to Green Bay for a #1 pick.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/whos1.html
 
bckey said:
A couple excerpts from an interesting article


Let's take a look at some of the greatest running backs who have ever played the game and how they did when it comes to the Super Bowls which, after all, is why they play the games. O.J. Simpson never even played in one. Eric Dickerson didn't win one. Negative for Barry Sanders too. Emmitt Smith won a bunch but he also had Troy Aikman. Walter Payton didn't win a Super Bowl until the Bears had one of the best defenses in league history in 1985. Gale Sayers, the guy who Bush is most often compared to, never even played in a playoff game! How about some of the most productive runners from recent years. Jerome Bettis? Curtis Martin? LaDainian Tomlinson? No, No and No.



However from 1993 to 2001 seven of the nine Super Bowl's were won by teams quarterbacked by former 1st round picks, and that doesn't include Brett Favre who went 33rd overall and was later traded to Green Bay for a #1 pick.

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/whos1.html
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None of those QB's were picked #1.
 
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