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Week 13:Texans colts GAME DAY

dream_team

Hall of Fame
So basically he’s trolling and you’re good with that type of behavior. Now I know exactly how you get down. So quick to come charging at my comments but you welcome those that trolls.

Sorry mods I got sucked back into the rabbits hole.
Basically, just stop responding. I know it's difficult to let the lies and hypocrisies slide, but no good comes out to responding... especially since it seems like he just wants to get under people's skins.
 

dream_team

Hall of Fame
Re-watching the wildcat, Duke pitch back to Watson play on the All-22. Some notes:
  • The Colts were not fooled at all. The LBs/Safeties didn't get sucked in at all.
  • This was a shot play, everyone went deep. No immediate routes whatsoever.
  • Nick Martin gets beat easily (ugh), applies the pressure on DW.
  • I don't think DW threw the ball up w/ intentions of a jump-ball to Cooks. I think he wanted to throw it away, pass the endzone, but he got hit at the same time. Still a poor decision on Watson.
IMO, I didn't like this play-call. Mainly because wildcat isn't something we typically do (or even at all this season), so it immediately seemed like a "trick". No shock that the Colts didn't fall for it.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
Contributor's Club
So basically he’s trolling and you’re good with that type of behavior. Now I know exactly how you get down. So quick to come charging at my comments but you welcome those that trolls.

Sorry mods I got sucked back into the rabbits hole.
I'm not trolling

I just happen to disagree with you on one Texans topic.

Hopefully your trying to get me banned doesn't work.

I just wanted to add Martin sucks.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
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I thought it was the receiver's responsibility to read the defense himself and run the correct route. I don't think the QB communicates to which route to run. I could be wrong, but this was my assumption.
@Earl34 posted this video in another thread.


Listen to what Orlovsky says around the 43 second mark. We have a similar mechanism in our offense. Once Watson recognizes the coverage he announces the route concepts to the team.

I'm saying it's possible at times Watson calls something that doesn't jive with the play called, the route concept shouldn't change the entire play. Just tweak it.

At the same time it is very likely the receivers understood the concept incorrectly.

But with the number of times we've seen two receivers in the same spot, new guys, old guys, Kekee, rumors that Hopkins ran the wrong route... I've got to believe the error was most likely on both ends.
 

amazing80

Fire Easterby
@Earl34 posted this video in another thread.


Listen to what Orlovsky says around the 43 second mark. We have a similar mechanism in our offense. Once Watson recognizes the coverage he announces the route concepts to the team.

I'm saying it's possible at times Watson calls something that doesn't jive with the play called, the route concept shouldn't change the entire play. Just tweak it.

At the same time it is very likely the receivers understood the concept incorrectly.

But with the number of times we've seen two receivers in the same spot, new guys, old guys, Kekee, rumors that Hopkins ran the wrong route... I've got to believe the error was most likely on both ends.
I’m not saying it’s never on Watson because I believe no one is perfect. But Watson has always been touted, from OB when he was drafted and through His first mini camp, to the more recent comments from Avery about him, as a highly intellect QB with the ability to not make the same mistakes more than once or twice. I don’t believe that is lip service. I think he puts the work in and understands the offense more than any of our wide outs.
 

steelbtexan

King of the W. B. Club
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I’m not saying it’s never on Watson because I believe no one is perfect. But Watson has always been touted, from OB when he was drafted and through His first mini camp, to the more recent comments from Avery about him, as a highly intellect QB with the ability to not make the same mistakes more than once or twice. I don’t believe that is lip service. I think he puts the work in and understands the offense more than any of our wide outs.
Agreed, any QB should understand the offense better than a WR.

I do believe Avery is almost as much of a part of the problem as BOB was.
 

steelbtexan

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Because he hasn't taught DW4 to take the easy throws instead of looking for the deep throws most of the time. Also has Avery's coaching helped DW4's internal clock when it comes to getting rid of the ball?

It's more likely Avery's telling DW4 what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. Most times employees (which Avery is) will tell the boss what they want to here. This situation is most likely no different.

BTW, what other NFL QB's does Avery work with? DW4's the 1st QB I've heard of him working with.
 
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amazing80

Fire Easterby
Because he hasn't taught DW4 to take the easy throws instead of looking for the deep throws most of the time. Also has Avery's coaching helped DW4's internal clock when it comes to getting rid of the ball?

It's more likely Avery's telling DW4 what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to here. Most times employees (which Avery is) will tell the boss what they want to here. This situation is most likely no different.

BTW, what other NFL QB's does Avery work with? DW4's the 1st QB I've heard of him working with.
Honestly, that is pure speculation. We have no idea what he teaches DW4. From everything I have read, he does not like this system or how DW4 is being used. So I don't think he is aligned with the things BOB did. He is pounding the table for creativity and to allow Watson to use the entire width of the field.

By every stat measurable, Watson is among the best in short-yardage throws. Why do you think he isn't? Our system is nothing like the Pats. We stress defenses by going deep and having long-developing routes. It's been proven over and over again on here. If you hate the slow route combination, that has nothing to do with Watson. We all hate it.
 

thunderkyss

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I’m not saying it’s never on Watson because I believe no one is perfect. But Watson has always been touted, from OB when he was drafted and through His first mini camp, to the more recent comments from Avery about him, as a highly intellect QB with the ability to not make the same mistakes more than once or twice. I don’t believe that is lip service. I think he puts the work in and understands the offense more than any of our wide outs.
Understood. But I also understand this is totally different from the way he was taught to play at Clemson. There was no gradual progression from the free way he played then, to the mentally taxing way he's been asked to play since his 2nd season. These mistakes, imo, have been happening with less & less frequently so I think he is getting better at it.

But again, it wasn't just Coutee "running the wrong routes" Even Hopkins & Fells who have been in the offense for a long time.
 

amazing80

Fire Easterby
Understood. But I also understand this is totally different from the way he was taught to play at Clemson. There was no gradual progression from the free way he played then, to the mentally taxing way he's been asked to play since his 2nd season. These mistakes, imo, have been happening with less & less frequently so I think he is getting better at it.

But again, it wasn't just Coutee "running the wrong routes" Even Hopkins & Fells who have been in the offense for a long time.
The problem with the system currently being run, everyone has to make multiple reads. We've dissected this 100 times on this site. When you ask every single position to make multiple reads per play, you are going to get inconsistencies because they are not reading it all the same. Couple that with information coming out the OB didn't allow the team to practice and correct mistakes, and you clearly see that taking a toll on improvement.

So Coutee may see something one way, while Fuller sees it another, and they end up in the same general area. Meanwhile, Watson read something totally different
 

thunderkyss

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Because he hasn't taught DW4 to take the easy throws instead of looking for the deep throws most of the time.
By every stat measurable, Watson is among the best in short-yardage throws.
I believe it is because we don't score on our first possession & at times we don't score in complete halves. Drives are stalled because "they" believe Watson didn't take the short throws to move the chains.
 

amazing80

Fire Easterby
I believe it is because we don't score on our first possession & at times we don't score in complete halves. Drives are stalled because "they" believe Watson didn't take the short throws to move the chains.
I hate inconsistencies too. I get it.

I just feel the play-calling kills momentum, much more than Watson missing reads.

How many times per game do "you" guys (not specifically you) feel Watson misses reads?
 

thunderkyss

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The problem with the system currently being run, everyone has to make multiple reads. We've dissected this 100 times on this site. When you ask every single position to make multiple reads per play, you are going to get inconsistencies because they are not reading it all the same.
First, keep in mind I'm saying Watson was making these mistakes in his 2nd & 3rd season, not today. Back when it should have been expected he will make mistakes.

Second, I don't believe it works the way you state it. As Orlovsky explained in the video, once the QB reads the defense, he communicates to the receivers what he sees. This is to get them on the same page as far as route concepts go. After that, the multiple reads is the same in every offense, not just ours. If the defender is high & inside, the QB throws it under & outside. The receiver breaks under & inside, or looks over his outside shoulder or whatever. Whether it's a WCO, or Air Coryale (sp) receivers adjust their routes to the defense, QBs adjust their throws to the defense.
 

amazing80

Fire Easterby
First, keep in mind I'm saying Watson was making these mistakes in his 2nd & 3rd season, not today. Back when it should have been expected he will make mistakes.

Second, I don't believe it works the way you state it. As Orlovsky explained in the video, once the QB reads the defense, he communicates to the receivers what he sees. This is to get them on the same page as far as route concepts go. After that, the multiple reads is the same in every offense, not just ours. If the defender is high & inside, the QB throws it under & outside. The receiver breaks under & inside, or looks over his outside shoulder or whatever. Whether it's a WCO, or Air Coryale (sp) receivers adjust their routes to the defense, QBs adjust their throws to the defense.
Wasn't it Cecil Shorts who described the offense being that way?
 

thunderkyss

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I just feel the play-calling kills momentum, much more than Watson missing reads.

How many times per game do "you" guys (not specifically you) feel Watson misses reads?
To an extent I think the case can be made. However, I understand (I think) & agree with Watson's approach to the game. Sometimes Watson finds himself in situations because the smart play didn't work out as it should have. A receiver dropped the ball, a defender made a heck of a play. Protection broke down, or David Johnson was David Johnson.

A lot of the missed reads "they" complain about, I believe Watson should have overlooked them. If I've got Will Fuller singled up with no safety help, I'm going to go for that. If protection breaks down, or whatever reason it doesn't work & I'm in third & long, so be it. If I'm in 4 down territory, then that will change the way I approach that third & long. But for the most part I like the way Watson approaches the game.
 

thunderkyss

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Wasn't it Cecil Shorts who described the offense being that way?
I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying the way we understand it isn't exactly correct. Every receiver is not adlibing on every play. The play called includes concepts. Telling the receivers what to run. At the LOS, Watson calls out any change in concept. Then the routes are adjusted to the defense the same way they are in every offense. This is the anticipation & ball placement part of the throw. Think of all the teams that excelled at the back shoulder throw. Those were mainly WCOs, not EP
 

Texansballer74

Hall of Fame
Honestly, that is pure speculation. We have no idea what he teaches DW4. From everything I have read, he does not like this system or how DW4 is being used. So I don't think he is aligned with the things BOB did. He is pounding the table for creativity and to allow Watson to use the entire width of the field.

By every stat measurable, Watson is among the best in short-yardage throws. Why do you think he isn't? Our system is nothing like the Pats. We stress defenses by going deep and having long-developing routes. It's been proven over and over again on here. If you hate the slow route combination, that has nothing to do with Watson. We all hate it.
Well because stats are supposedly be for losers. Therefore, we shouldn’t be looking at that particular stat in which proves Watson is up there with a lot of quarterbacks who dink and donk. Aka the easy short/ intermediate throws. That link I believe was posted by Earl some months back.
 
I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying the way we understand it isn't exactly correct. Every receiver is not adlibing on every play. The play called includes concepts. Telling the receivers what to run. At the LOS, Watson calls out any change in concept. Then the routes are adjusted to the defense the same way they are in every offense. This is the anticipation & ball placement part of the throw. Think of all the teams that excelled at the back shoulder throw. Those were mainly WCOs, not EP
In all this I still smell square peg in a round hole. Some players have a high level of athletic ability, some have a high degree of "smarts" (understanding concepts) and most great ones have both. In the end the system either has to tailor to the players or vice versa and of course that horse has been beaten 100s of times. Personally I haven't felt the core group of offensive skill players over the last few years were a good match for any resemblance of an E-P or modified E-P system. Being able to apply the concept from an array of formations and personnel groupings takes smarts first as all NFL players have some sort of athletic ability. Honestly I think this group needs less for them to process in order to maximize their production.
 

thunderkyss

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In all this I still smell square peg in a round hole. Some players have a high level of athletic ability, some have a high degree of "smarts" (understanding concepts) and most great ones have both. In the end the system either has to tailor to the players or vice versa and of course that horse has been beaten 100s of times. Personally I haven't felt the core group of offensive skill players over the last few years were a good match for any resemblance of an E-P or modified E-P system. Being able to apply the concept from an array of formations and personnel groupings takes smarts first as all NFL players have some sort of athletic ability. Honestly I think this group needs less for them to process in order to maximize their production.
I agree... up until this year. Fuller, Cooks, Stills & Cobb should have tore this schedule up if they had an offseason. This team, imo, has never been as talented at the WR position from 1 to 5

& if we had a decent OL coach, I think that would have worked out a lot better for Bill O'Brien. He wasn't an offensive guru, but he put together a heck of an offensive roster (paid too much, I'm not denying).
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
Wow... So many plays in there where the OL fails to block the defender & Watson stands tall in the pocket & delivers a strike.

He's really improved a lot as a pocket passer.
I just said a moment ago that I would love to see what Joe Brady could do with this offense. I wasn't a believer until Joe Burrow completely torched us in the NC game. Some might think he's too green for the job, but I'd like to see a young fella with a lot of energy and fresh ideas. And it doesn't hurt that he helped engineer the most unstoppable offensive attack in the history of college football.
 

thunderkyss

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I just said a moment ago that I would love to see what Joe Brady could do with this offense. I wasn't a believer until Joe Burrow completely torched us in the NC game. Some might think he's too green for the job, but I'd like to see a young fella with a lot of energy and fresh ideas. And it doesn't hurt that he helped engineer the most unstoppable offensive attack in the history of college football.
I was trying to get your memory back to this

What is the usual result of a play--irrespective of field position--when the offensive line does not block?
 

thunderkyss

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ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
All I could find are these
But you said "so many plays in there where OL fails to block the defender & Watson stands in there & delivers a strike." I said I didn't see any in the video I posted. You then said "I knew you wouldn't." I then asked you to post a screenshot of defenders coming through unblocked and Watson delivering a strike. Then you post the same still of the OL whiffing a block and Watson getting sacked.

Do you see why this doesn't make any sense?
 

thunderkyss

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You then said "I knew you wouldn't." I then asked you to post a screenshot of defenders coming through unblocked and Watson delivering a strike. Then you post the same still of the OL whiffing a block and Watson getting sacked.

Do you see why this doesn't make any sense?
Yes. You're seeing Houston coming in completely unblocked. I don't. The loop & the poor job Fulton does is exactly the same as many of the barely blocked guys we see in the Hansen video.

We just see it differently.
 

CWTexansFan

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Contributor's Club
So, Dungy is out?
:kitten:
All I could find are these






Maybe I can go back to the video & capture stills of him actually starting on the right, outside the tackle, then looping back outside around the guard. But we all know it was a stunt, right?


It looks like Martin gives the guy a push into Watson, after he blocks the air on the left side for some reason and tries to recover.
Such a shitty player.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
Yes. You're seeing Houston coming in completely unblocked. I don't. The loop & the poor job Fulton does is exactly the same as many of the barely blocked guys we see in the Hansen video.

We just see it differently.
We're not even talking about the same video....

I posted a film review of the game.

You said "so many plays in there where the OL fails to deliver & Watson stands in there & delivers a strike."

Then you keep referring to one play that we've already discussed ad nauseum. Your reference to "so many" plays means you've watched the film review of the game, but you can't find any plays that support the point you make. Or it means you watched the film and can't keep up with the conversation. Which is it?
 

thunderkyss

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We're not even talking about the same video....

I posted a film review of the game.

You said "so many plays in there where the OL fails to deliver & Watson stands in there & delivers a strike."

Then you keep referring to one play that we've already discussed ad nauseum. Your reference to "so many" plays means you've watched the film review of the game, but you can't find any plays that support the point you make. Or it means you watched the film and can't keep up with the conversation. Which is it?
The guys in the video you provided were barely blocked, if at all. Very similar to Houston’s sack for the safety.

The unblocked defenders got to Watson as quickly if not quicker than Houston did on the safety.

Watson did (in your video) exactly what his overly critical critic unjustly says he doesn’t do. Stand tall, deliver a strike while taking a hit. Same thing I’m saying he should have done instead of taking that safety.
 

ClemsonTexan

Waterboy
The guys in the video you provided were barely blocked, if at all. Very similar to Houston’s sack for the safety.

The unblocked defenders got to Watson as quickly if not quicker than Houston did on the safety.

Watson did (in your video) exactly what his overly critical critic unjustly says he doesn’t do. Stand tall, deliver a strike while taking a hit. Same thing I’m saying he should have done instead of taking that safety.
Where's your screenshot?
 


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