Exascor
Veteran
Aaron Curry - pick 4 2009
Brian Cushing - pick 15 2009
Clay Matthews - pick 26 2009
High draft picks don't guarantee anything. Sometimes teams buy into predraft hype too.
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We arent out of it yet...
- Thread starter EllisUnit
- Start date
Aaron Curry - pick 4 2009
Brian Cushing - pick 15 2009
Clay Matthews - pick 26 2009
High draft picks don't guarantee anything. Sometimes teams buy into predraft hype too.
Thorn
Dirty Old Man
The debate is about watching the Texans and wanting them to win or lose. I want them to win.
Vance87
All Pro
If you were a REAL Texans fan you'd want them to lose to grab that top pick and obtain a high-caliber game changer.
- Uncle Rico and Blaine Gabbert
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
You play to win the game. Period.
Where you pick doesn't mean that much. Top 5 pick has just as much, if not more, bust potential than a mid to late 1st rounder.
Where was Aaron Rodgers picked? Where was Jamarcus Russell picked? How about Aaron Curry or Mark Sanchez? Gaines Adams?
How about JJ Watt and Brian Cushing?
So. No. Leave me out of the club of people wanting to tank for tanking's sake.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
You teach players to give u there 100 percent all the time during practice and games. You can not go and ask them to lose because they are not good enough to win. People say the colts "suck for luck" thats BS they tried to win every game they could, they didnt throw games to get luck. Come on people its not in people human nature to try to lose, and they wont.
Uncle Rico
Ur apology should be as loud as Ur disrespect was
Lol cherry pick early round busts to suit your argument all you want, odds are better of obtaining premier talent with a higher pick. Having incompetent managers and scouts who can't find that talent is another issue altogether.
Should I just run down the last 5 drafts and throw up names to fit my opinion too?
Woo hoo let's go get to 8-8 and get that studly OG we desperately need!
I'm the Texanstalk whipping boy, and I approved this post. Lol
(I'm sure you REAL fans will think of more clever names to call me, I'm giddy with
anticipation)
Should I just run down the last 5 drafts and throw up names to fit my opinion too?
Woo hoo let's go get to 8-8 and get that studly OG we desperately need!
I'm the Texanstalk whipping boy, and I approved this post. Lol
(I'm sure you REAL fans will think of more clever names to call me, I'm giddy with
anticipation)
Exascor
Veteran
I do agree that the players won't tank. I even doubt that coaches will tank. That is their jobs on the line. That's ridiculous and statements like that likely comes from people that have never played anything competitive.
This is where I disagree with you and a lot of other posters that I really respect. The organization can decide to try again next year by blowing this year. I truly believe that it happened with the Colts. I think once they were forced to go with Painter after Collins went down they were ready to lose out for draft position. Picking up the 0-16 Lions leader Dan Orlovsky sure doesn't seem like a move to improve the teams chances of winning does it?
10-6 team less Manning = 2-14? Both wins were after the #1 pick was secured?
2-14 team plus Luck & a few others = 11-5? Seem suspicious.
There's no proof either way. I could be completely wrong. Just my opinion.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
OK. Let's NOT Cherry Pick. Let's look at the top 5 picks from 2002-2010. How about that? And let's look at Pro Bowls for want of a better gauge.
1. David Carr - 0 PB (Bust)
2. Julius Peppers - 8 PB (Future HOF)
3. Joey Harrington - 0 PB (Bust)
4. Mike Williams - 0 PB (Epic bust)
5. Quentin Jammer - 0 PB
1. Carson Palmer - 2 PB, not worth a #1
2. Charles Rogers - 0 PB (Epic Bust)
3. Andre Johnson - 6 PB (Possible HOF)
4. Dewayne Robertson - 0 PB
5. Terence Newman - 2 PB
1. Eli Manning - 3 PB
2. Robert Gallery - 0 PB, Bust
3. Larry Fitzgerald - 7 PB
4. Philip Rivers - 4 PB
5. Sean Taylor - 2 PB Sad story
1. Alex Smith - 0 PB, Looked like a bust for years
2. Ronnie Brown - 1 PB, Good player
3. Braylon Edwards - 1 PB, Iffy
4. Cedric Benson - 0 PB, Bustish, a couple of decent years
5. Cadillac Williams - 0PB, a few decent years
1. Mario Williams - 2 PB, iffy
2. Reggie Bush - 0 PB, Looked like a bust for years
3. Vince Young - 2 PB, Bust
4. D'Brickasaw Ferguson - 3 PB, Good player
5. A.J. Hawk - 0 PB but good player
1. Jamarcus Russell - 0 PB, Epic Bust
2. Calvin Johnson - 3 PB, Possible Future HOF
3. Joe Thomas - 6 PB, Great pick
4. Gaines Adams - 0 PB, epic bust
5. Levi Brown - 0 PB, not a great pick
1. Jake Long - 4 PB, good pick
2. Chris Long - 0 PB, meh
3. Matt Ryan - 2 PB, iffy
4. Darren McFadden - 0 PB, bustish
5. Glenn Dorsey - 0 PB but OK
1. Matthew Stafford - 0 PB, iffy
2. Jason Smith - 0 PB, bust
3. Tyson Jackson - 0 PB, bustish
4. Aaron Curry - 0 PB, Epic Bust
5. Mark Sanchez - 0 PB, Bust
1. Sam Bradford - 0 PB, Bustish
2. Ndamukong Suh - 2 PB
3. Gerald McCoy - 1 PB
4. Trent Williams - 1 PB
5. Eric Berry - 2 PB
There are some good picks in there, especially at WR with Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, and Calvin Johnson. But there are more misses than hits with guys you're trying to portray as sure-fire.
Is the Best Running Back in the league in there? No. The Best Defensive Linemen or Linebackers? No. The Best QBs? Peyton was a #1 pick and most good QBs are first rounders, but the top 5 is a crap shoot.
Which is my one of my points.
Many of the best players are taken later in the first round or even later. Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Roethlisberger, etc., etc.
If you want a team that has a winning mind-set (which I do), then I want them to go out and win every game even when the season's gone wrong. I don't want them to give up. I want a team full of high-motor guys like JJ Watt and Brian Cushing and I want them to fight from beginning to end.
I'm not going to get those players and I'm not going to get that sort of effort if I start asking them to fail.
This is BoB's team as Champs 2012 posted he doesn't owe us/we the fans anything.
Yes, we are out of it now.
Yes, we are out of it now.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
You made the statement in bold so own up to it and please don't try to weasel out with some distinction on "true game changers." No need to cherry pick busts, you are just wrong. There are impact/team changing players every year at 13+.
2002 - Jeremy Shockey, Albert Haynesworth, Ed Reed
2003 - Troy Polomalu, Dallas Clark, Larry Johnson, Nnamdi Asomugha
2004 - Tommy Harris, Vince Wilfork, Stephen Jackson, Shawn Andrews
2005 - Jammal Brown, Derrick Johnson, Aaron Rodgers, Roddy White, Logan Mankins
2006 - Antonio Cromartie, Tamba Hali, DeAngelo Williams, Nick Mangold
2007 - Darelle Revis, Leon Hall, Aaron Ross, Jon Beason, Joe Staley
2008 - Jonathan Stewart, Chris Johnson, Duane Brown, Joe Flacco
2009 - Brian Orakpo, Brian Cushing, Percy Harvin, Clay Mathews, Hakeem Nicks
2010 - Jason Pierre-Paul, Mike Iupati, Maurkice Pouncy, Dez Bryant
That isn't counting guys outside the 1st round like Drew Brees, DeMeco, Clinton Portis, Anquan Boldin, Rob Gronkowski, Lesean McCoy, Ray Rice, Matt Forte, Maurice Jones-Drew, etc.
Point is EVERY year there are impact players to go along with lots and lots of really good starters.
I hate losing because it breeds a losing attitude. With that said, the Texans need a culture shock, Why do Marciano/Bullock still have jobs? This is an indication that either poor job performance is an acceptable way of doing businees for the on the field product. Or Bob's team is all about making $$$$ and he could care less about the on the field product.
Aggies will fill the stands and are very happy drinking/BBQ'ing and havin a good ole time. Winning is and always will be secondary to BoB and his crew. (Jamey Rootes and the rest of the marketers)
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
While I agree that Marciano and Bullock should be gone, I don't believe that McNair doesn't want a winning team. And I don't know what world you're living in but in my world, ALL owners are about making $$$$ and McNair's no different than any of the other owners. I don't think McNair is cheap with this team, I don't think he's a problem, and I don't mind the fact that he's patient. I much prefer an owner like McNair than an owner like Jerry Jones.
And I don't get this whole Aggie thing at all. That's just such a load of BS that I can't even get my mind around it. I can't believe that anyone would say that seriously.
bckey
All Pro
We all like to pull out Jerry Jones and say we don't want an owner like that. Of course not. But Bob is a polar opposite of Jerry Jones. He is aggravatingly too patient. He causes damage by being extremely slow to move. The world is much faster paced nowadays. Bob puts his stock in US Steel and leaves it for his entire lifetime. He needs to move it around in the ever changing market. See the trends and understand what and when to buy and what and when to sell.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
What has that gotten him? - one less playoff win during the same period.
bOODRO87
Time Consumer
If Gary comes back don't expect any major changes. Even with a shiny, new QB and a possible top 5 pick, it will be the same status quo which was always losing to the well coached teams. Be smart and retire with your health and money, Gary. For everyone's sake.
Marciono will probably be back if Gary is as well..
Marciono will probably be back if Gary is as well..
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
i think a shiny new QB can make all the difference, we all saw how we took KC down to the wire, and how we were crushing the colts until Kubiak has his mini stroke. Sure we are 0-2 since Keenum took over but the play calling has changed, the overall mindset of the team has changed. After seeing how this team is coached with Keenum at QB i am more than confident in Kubiak, i wasnt before when Schaub was QB. But i am now with how i see how he calls games with Keenum running the Offense.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I like patient. I don't move my stocks around.
Moving things around in an ever-changing market is just busywork that makes you feel like you're doing something and accomplishing things when you're just standing still. It's like watching a football game and arching your body when you watch the kicker kicking a field goal even though you have no control over it.
Jerry Jones is a bad owner because he doesn't care about winning and losing. He's just playing Billionaire Madden. He loves football and he wants to be a part of it.
Daniel Snyder hasn't been successful because he's the type of owner who's active. Who makes a lot of moves. Who tries to read the trends and move his stocks around.
I prefer patience. I prefer building something over time rather than tearing it down and starting from scratch every 2-4 years.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
I can't believe I have to read about this tanking **** on THIS board too. Already deal with it with moron basketball and hockey fans. And the meaning of "tanking" is not understood. "Tanking" is losing games on purpose. If you are an advocate of such actions, you are a loser. Just GTFO.
Look, you can find a contributor anywhere. And look, there are 32 ****ing teams in this league. Not everyone can be in the playoffs and not everyone can be in bottom 5. We are very clearly not the worst team in the league or close to it. It's a down year with lots of bad luck. That doesn't mean we're perpetually worthless like some other teams that are perpetually worthless. You cannot breed a winning culture by losing. Look at the Browns and Bills. They're perpetual LOSERS.
I am SO SICK of this damn argument INFECTING every single sport. I don't know where it came from and why it started getting more popular in recent years but it's as infuriating as people who use the word "hater" "hating on", etc. All I know is that it needs to die a painful death.
Look, you can find a contributor anywhere. And look, there are 32 ****ing teams in this league. Not everyone can be in the playoffs and not everyone can be in bottom 5. We are very clearly not the worst team in the league or close to it. It's a down year with lots of bad luck. That doesn't mean we're perpetually worthless like some other teams that are perpetually worthless. You cannot breed a winning culture by losing. Look at the Browns and Bills. They're perpetual LOSERS.
I am SO SICK of this damn argument INFECTING every single sport. I don't know where it came from and why it started getting more popular in recent years but it's as infuriating as people who use the word "hater" "hating on", etc. All I know is that it needs to die a painful death.
bckey
All Pro
I'm saying there is a happy place somewhere between the 2 extremes. Being extremely patient can set a team back just like constant change. We won't know until this current regime is done but imho every year Kubiak remains as head coach of the Texans is a setback. He should have been gone at the end of the 2010 season. I don't see any hope of ever seeing the Texans in a superbowl as long as he is here. Now I know plenty of fans do think he is the right coach but only time will tell. And he has had plenty of it so there will be no excuse.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
You mean you didn't have any hope we could have seen the Texans in a Super Bowl last year or the year before, even though we were playing in the Divisional Round, two games away from being in the Super Bowl? Especially in 2011 where we were one muffed punt/arguably the dumbest thing I've ever seen a player do in the playoffs away from making it to the AFC Championship Game?
I get saying Kubiak's had enough time and all that, but to say things like "I don't see any hope of ever seeing the Texans in a Super Bowl as long as he is here" especially given the insane obstacles we were facing in 2011/12 is asinine at best.
I get saying Kubiak's had enough time and all that, but to say things like "I don't see any hope of ever seeing the Texans in a Super Bowl as long as he is here" especially given the insane obstacles we were facing in 2011/12 is asinine at best.
8 yrs in NFL time is beyond patient.
How many yrs would you suggest BoB give Rick/Gary 10 yrs, 20 yrs, 50 yrs ?
It's obvious that Rick/Gary aren't SB winning quality.
\
Asinine is keeping Bullock/Coach Joe
Since Rick/Gary are making decisions like this, I can see why the fanbase is losing hope, after 8 yrs of this crap.
mattieuk
All Pro
It comes from he namby panby "redistribution of wealth" approach of giving failing teams the best players in the next year's batch. It is all a business decision to create parity in the league and keep fan interest high everywhere, other than just winning teams. Abysmal failure is rewarded more than playing average.
In a lot other sports outside of the USA, you lose and finish bottom of he standings, guess what, you are relegated to a lower tier of the sport, big name players leave the team, and thus there is incentive to keep playing 100% every single week.
The talk of "tanking" is absolutely absurd. We are half way through the year. We aren't at the "lose his game and get top pick" junction (not that would justify wanting to lose anyway!). Plus if we has got the 2nd pick back when we took Mario #1, we would have saved some coin for not having to sign him as a #1 pick.
So, um, in conclusion regarding tanking half the season, when we're really obviously no where near the worst team in the league - bad idea.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
And just to add, my main contention is that they're not "SB winning quality." I thoroughly understand assessment based on hard results thus far. You can say "okay, it's been _ years, they haven't won so time to cut bait" and that would be totally fine and I'd agree. But to say it like they're not "SB winning quality" is ridiculous because in the NFL, you need luck to be successful too and lots of coaches aren't "SB winning quality" then. John Fox? Hasn't won a Super Bowl yet. Chuck Pagano? Hasn't won a Super Bowl yet. Pete Carroll? Hasn't won a Super Bowl yet. Mike Smith? Hasn't won a Super Bowl yet.
And I'd bet my balls that everyone who hates Kubiak would rather have one of those four guys instead. And before you come to me with the inevitable "none of those guys have been there as long as Kubiak's been here", let me say that the comparison is not length of tenure but rather "echelon" of coaching, and three of those four coaches coach teams that people LOVE this year and see as legitimate candidates to win the Super Bowl.
So are Rick/Gary, who transformed this team from the Casserly/Capers/Carr years into a stable, respected organization, merely "one Jacoby Jones catastrophe away from AFC Championship Game"-quality? The point is that Kubiak may not get it done here, and his time should be up here because it HASN'T happened, but that doesn't mean that Smith and Kubiak can't do it here or anywhere else because some arbitrary garbage like "SB winning quality."
And I'd bet my balls that everyone who hates Kubiak would rather have one of those four guys instead. And before you come to me with the inevitable "none of those guys have been there as long as Kubiak's been here", let me say that the comparison is not length of tenure but rather "echelon" of coaching, and three of those four coaches coach teams that people LOVE this year and see as legitimate candidates to win the Super Bowl.
So are Rick/Gary, who transformed this team from the Casserly/Capers/Carr years into a stable, respected organization, merely "one Jacoby Jones catastrophe away from AFC Championship Game"-quality? The point is that Kubiak may not get it done here, and his time should be up here because it HASN'T happened, but that doesn't mean that Smith and Kubiak can't do it here or anywhere else because some arbitrary garbage like "SB winning quality."
Fox made a SB with Delhomme as his QB and made several NFC championship games.
Rick/Gary?
Rick/Gary?
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
We dont agree with much, but we agree on this kudos !
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
The play calling on offense hasn't changed at all, neither has the scheme, outside of using some pistol. Same plays, different result.
TheMatrix31
Hall of Fame
And he couldn't get it done. It's obvious John Fox is not "SB winning quality" then, right?
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
He made one NFC Championship appearance while coaching the Panthers, and that was the one that got him to the SB.
bckey
All Pro
Well the Texans didn't make it in either of those years. Who did they play that 2010/2011 season? Super soft schedule. And 2012 was an epic fail. Elite teams exposed the Texans and they blew the number 1 seed and home field throughout. Horrible coaching. Players can say what they want about Kubiak but their on field performance speaks louder than words. Kubiak constantly gets out coached in critical big games. So it seems asinine at best to me to assume they can make it under Kubiak when it is those type of games you have to win to get there. He keeps proving to you he can't. They lose to the elite teams when it matters. It seems the only team they can beat in the playoffs is the Bengals which is another poorly coached team.
It would take a qb like Peyton Manning that really coaches his own offense at the los and/or an elite defense like the 2000 Ravens or 85 bears to overcome the inadequacy of Kubiak's coaching ability. Then there is hope.
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EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
NO that is not true, how many bootlegs in the last 2 seasons have we seen run by Schaub ? And how many in the past 2 games have we seen run by keenum......Different play calling and calling the games different.
TexansSeminole
Hall of Fame
Slightly more bootlegs by Keenum, because he is more effective on the move. The plays are the same though. Schaub ran bootlegs ALL the time. The overall offense hasn't changed at all really.
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This season is over because the Texans are gonna lose more than 2 games in the final 8. It is a given that one of those losses will be @ Indy. But just for the heck of it if by some miracle the Texans win the other 7 it is still possible to get the #6 seed, but they would need help from more than a handful of teams, with Miami and Tennessee being the biggest threats. The Jets already have 4 conference losses, so assuming that the Texans win all games except @ Indy (mission impossible) the Texans would also have only 4 conference losses. The Texans win the tiebreaker against the Jets. They already own the tie breaker againt San Diego.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
What I'm saying is that 8 years is unusual in the NFL BUT that's because most owners are too impatient and give up on someone after 2-4 years. If giving someone 10+ years instead of 2-4 were more the norm, I think some teams would be (or would have been) much more successful.
The Steelers gave Cowher 14 years to win a SB and he ended up building a team that won multiple. OTOH, if they'd followed your strategy, they would have fired Cowher over and over and over throwing the baby out with the bathwater several times.
It's not obvious to me that Rick/Gary aren't SB winning quality. Quite the opposite, really. I think they're very capable of winning a SB.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
He actually got to the Conference Championships twice, iirc.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Out of 9 seasons, Fox made the playoffs 3x.
At Denver, he was able to win as many playoff games with Peyton Manning as he did with Tim Tebow.
Just because someone doesn't win a SB doesn't mean they aren't capable of winning a SB. Just because a team has a bad year that doesn't mean that the head coach is incapable of winning it all. Unless you agree with the Browns firing Belichick.
ChampionTexan
Hall of Fame
Yep - my mistake.
Yeah, but after eight years, Cowher had at least gotten to a Super Bowl and had already made the AFC championship game three times, IIRC, and made the playoffs with regularity. The potential to win a Super Bowl was plainly there. Gary/Rick have not come close to doing that.
That's not to say they can't do it- I believe with Case, and his ability to open things up a bit, they have a chance in the upcoming years. However, comparing Cowher and Rick/Gary is a losing comparison.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
Cowher is a poor comparison for most other NFL HCs. Cowher didn't take over after the HC and/or GM were fired. Noll retired and did so from a team with a winning record over the 3 prior seasons. Cowher did not build the team he wanted from ground up. The coaching staff was left largely in tact or promoted from within. A new QB had been drafted and gone through his rookie season.
There aren't many coaches who take over in such favorable conditions: Mariucci from Seifert, Seifert from Walsh, Turner from Shottenheimer...heck maybe Harbaugh from Singletary. Those would be more comparable circumstances to look at the results.
Colts got abused by the Rams.
38 - 8...... we're still alive.
38 - 8...... we're still alive.
But if we lose this one to Arizona, maybe it's a good thing the Jags won today....
houstonhurricane
Veteran
We are four games (and a tiebreaker) behind Indy...and only one game ahead of the Jags...
