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Watson should have dumped that ball off on the INT

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Unless anything you’ve said prior demonstrates Watson should so much as even be mentioned in the same breath as Brady or Rodgers, which you haven’t because he can’t hold either of their jocks, there’s no reason to go back and reread any meager point you’ve attemped to make.
Especially because you didn't read anything that you don't know that I never put Watson together with any of them.

It is absolutely ridiculous to criticize something that people (I) never said.

You don't even know what I wrote about, how can you criticize any of it?
 

banned1976

All Pro
This play has been beaten to death. I'd prefer to discuss the two plays earlier, the jet sweep to Cooks for a 5 yard loss. Interested to hear people's takes on that play.
Agreed.

3rd and 15 comes around too often for this team IMO. When they do - the offensive play has to be creative to the point of allowing someone to come free; the quarterback has to make good decisions quickly; and everybody else has to execute.

Totally excusing or blaming one player over a series of bad downs gets us nowhere. I’ve been really surprised how much energy has gone into debating this one play. So many things have gone wrong for the Texans in less than a year.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
Agreed.

3rd and 15 comes around too often for this team IMO. When they do - the offensive play has to be creative to the point of allowing someone to come free; the quarterback has to make good decisions quickly; and everybody else has to execute.

Totally excusing or blaming one player over a series of bad downs gets us nowhere. I’ve been really surprised how much energy has gone into debating this one play. So many things have gone wrong for the Texans in less than a year.
A lot is at stake here.
A number of people have been wrongly criticizing Watson for not looking to take the check down first. (And therefore not learning the art of QBacking.)

This thread is to show that he was doing the same thing that all of those great QBs were doing in the same/similar instances (3rd and very long).
They were all looking for the deep throw first just like Watson did.
 

CloakNNNdagger

Hall of Fame
The other examples of QBs may also look deep first before looking for other options. But they all are known to be able to process through their progressions lightning quick.............while always maintaining a canny acute awareness of their surroundings, perceiving any and all pressures before they get engulfed and left with no options.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
The other examples of QBs may also look deep first before looking for other options. But they all are known to be able to process through their progressions lightning quick.............while always maintaining a canny acute awareness of their surroundings, perceiving any and all pressures before they get engulfed and left with no options.
Doc.
Read all of the instances that I had documented in this thread and find out how "fast" they processed things.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
No, at least one (MrTex) speficically said that Watson should have realized, pre-snap, that all the deep routes will be covered and should take the check down without even looking deep.

That never happened in real life with the great QBs I mentioned in this thread.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
No, at least one (MrTex) speficically said that Watson should have realized, pre-snap, that all the deep routes will be covered and should take the check down without even looking deep.

That never happened in real life with the great QBs I mentioned in this thread.
One is not "a number of people"
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
LOL

So now saying taking the check down is better than throwing a deep jump ball (int) is insisting

Dude you are too much
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
No, at least one (MrTex) speficically said that Watson should have realized, pre-snap, that all the deep routes will be covered and should take the check down without even looking deep.

That never happened in real life with the great QBs I mentioned in this thread.
Get it right....THIS IS WHAT I SAID ...."he should've still looked deep, BUT QUICKLY moved on to the check downs".....B/c his pre snap read should've let him know that in all likelihood it wasn't going to be there.

And you're sitting up here doing what you always do, making excuses for him trying to justify DW4's ill-advised throw by saying "See, other qb's do it too!"..DW4 himself probably wouldn't even go to the lengths to justify his throw like you have. Furthermore:

1.) The point I or anyone else that has been critical of DW4 on this particular play isn't even that other qbs do it to....In fact, you can go back and look at my posts and see me say that EVERY QB misses guys..The problem with DW4 is that it's happening a little too often where he's passing up the short stuff trying to force it.

2.) What other Qb's did or didn't do in similar situations doesn't matter in regard to what DW4 does or did...no matter how hard you try to justify it with other examples from other qbs.

3.) Judging by how hard you're trying, it's as clear as ever to me right now that you have no idea what they hell you're talking about and quite honestly you just need to stop, you're embarassing yourself.

At least 2 other much more credible people than you have echoed the exact same things i and Corrosion have been talking about in regards to DW4 and his propensity to ignore the short check downs in favor of trying to fit it in somewhere...& they were using other plays from the same game....

So carry on with your strawman argument...it won't matter, all your credibility has gone up in smoke with this 1 play.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
I read every post upthread wanting a replay of the play. I didn't get it. All I got was still shots. I saw the play live but couldn't see much. The broadcast showed it downfield briefly just once and my impressions are based purely off that.

I literally give zero f's what other QBs do in this scenario.

What I did see is the nature of Watson. He was gunning for magic instead of the check down. Do you want a qb who settles for check downs or something more? He still has the nuts to shoot for the stars. That's better then Carr turned out and that's the spirit I want.

If you key in specifically on his wr you might see it. There's a moment where 2 defenders are flat footed, the wr should make a line back in a scramble drill. He half azzed it.

Yeah, probably Watson should've thrown a quarter second sooner. Yeah, he probably shouldve put more mustard on it - but his wr let him down. He didn't cut back hard.

Game wise, they weren't really in fg range. It was effectively a punt. The underneath options wouldn't have gotten a first down. I blame the wr.
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
I read every post upthread wanting a replay of the play. I didn't get it. All I got was still shots. I saw the play live but couldn't see much. The broadcast showed it downfield briefly just once and my impressions are based purely off that.

I literally give zero f's what other QBs do in this scenario.

What I did see is the nature of Watson. He was gunning for magic instead of the check down. Do you want a qb who settles for check downs or something more? He still has the nuts to shoot for the stars. That's better then Carr turned out and that's the spirit I want.

If you key in specifically on his wr you might see it. There's a moment where 2 defenders are flat footed, the wr should make a line back in a scramble drill. He half azzed it.

Yeah, probably Watson should've thrown a quarter second sooner. Yeah, he probably shouldve put more mustard on it - but his wr let him down. He didn't cut back hard.

Game wise, they weren't really in fg range. It was effectively a punt. The underneath options wouldn't have gotten a first down. I blame the wr.
Ball was on the 43. If the defense is already set up & intent on taking away the deep ball, you don't force it downfield.....much less force it throwing off-platform fading into the sideline...throwing across your body getting ready to get lit up..That's probably why the ball sailed on him..TJ Watt was about to clean his clock. You are taught not to do that **** in high school b/c under the circumstances it almost always a bad idea..........unless your a truly special talent like Mahomes or Rodgers.

Sometimes the defense just wins and you gotta concede that...sometimes you gotta let your playmakers try to do something.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Ball was on the 43. If the defense is already set up & intent on taking away the deep ball, you don't force it downfield.....much less force it throwing off-platform fading into the sideline...throwing across your body getting ready to get lit up..That's probably why the ball sailed on him..TJ Watt was about to clean his clock. You are taught not to do that **** in high school b/c under the circumstances it almost always a bad idea..........unless your a truly special talent like Mahomes or Rodgers.

Sometimes the defense just wins and you gotta concede that...sometimes you gotta let your playmakers try to do something.
Did you watch the wr or just dw? The moment is there.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
I read every post upthread wanting a replay of the play. I didn't get it. All I got was still shots. I saw the play live but couldn't see much. The broadcast showed it downfield briefly just once and my impressions are based purely off that.

I literally give zero f's what other QBs do in this scenario.

What I did see is the nature of Watson. He was gunning for magic instead of the check down. Do you want a qb who settles for check downs or something more? He still has the nuts to shoot for the stars. That's better then Carr turned out and that's the spirit I want.

If you key in specifically on his wr you might see it. There's a moment where 2 defenders are flat footed, the wr should make a line back in a scramble drill. He half azzed it.

Yeah, probably Watson should've thrown a quarter second sooner. Yeah, he probably shouldve put more mustard on it - but his wr let him down. He didn't cut back hard.

Game wise, they weren't really in fg range. It was effectively a punt. The underneath options wouldn't have gotten a first down. I blame the wr.
My intention is to show what the great QBs like Brees, Wilson, Rogers, Brady would do in a similar situation.
And they did exactly what Watson did.

They look for the deep ball first, and go for it even if it takes over 4 seconds, even into double coverage.
They only go to the check down when they had to, and never as the first option.

I don't intend to discuss anything else besides that first part, because that was the key of my argument with MrTex here.
 

JB

Old Curmudgeon
Contributor's Club
I read every post upthread wanting a replay of the play. I didn't get it. All I got was still shots. I saw the play live but couldn't see much. The broadcast showed it downfield briefly just once and my impressions are based purely off that.

I literally give zero f's what other QBs do in this scenario.

What I did see is the nature of Watson. He was gunning for magic instead of the check down. Do you want a qb who settles for check downs or something more? He still has the nuts to shoot for the stars. That's better then Carr turned out and that's the spirit I want.

If you key in specifically on his wr you might see it. There's a moment where 2 defenders are flat footed, the wr should make a line back in a scramble drill. He half azzed it.

Yeah, probably Watson should've thrown a quarter second sooner. Yeah, he probably shouldve put more mustard on it - but his wr let him down. He didn't cut back hard.

Game wise, they weren't really in fg range. It was effectively a punt. The underneath options wouldn't have gotten a first down. I blame the wr.
He was throwing to Fuller who was @ the 19-20 yd line and had single coverage, not Stills who was @ the 10-11 yd line and had double coverage

1601520721139.png

When I can figure out how to take a video of the play, I will post for you
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
Did you watch the wr or just dw? The moment is there.
I've probably watched that play at least 20 times now from all angles...& yes,i see what you see where Stills kinda just gives up on the play...more than likely probably b/c even he didn't think that DW4 was gonna throw it as he was literally 1 step from going out of bounds. So yes it was there for Stills, but there's just 1 problem. DW4 said that he was trying to throw it to Fuller NOT Stills and the ball just sailed on him. Well, Fuller was open for a split second...i guess...but he also had 2 defenders in close proximity to him too who could've easily picked it so.....
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
I've probably watched that play at least 20 times now from all angles...& yes,i see what you see where Stills kinda just gives up on the play...more than likely probably b/c even he didn't think that DW4 was gonna throw it as he was literally 1 step from going out of bounds. So yes it was there for Stills, but there's just 1 problem. DW4 said that he was trying to throw it to Fuller NOT Stills and the ball just sailed on him. Well, Fuller was open for a split second...i guess...but he also had 2 defenders in close proximity to him too who could've easily picked it so.....
Please post how/where you watched it 20 times. I want to review the play.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
He was throwing to Fuller who was @ the 19-20 yd line and had single coverage, not Stills who was @ the 10-11 yd line and had double coverage

View attachment 6719

When I can figure out how to take a video of the play, I will post for you
Yes, I read about that. How he said the ball sailed on him.
The point remains that Still needs to work to get to an open space and never let the CB cross his face, just the same.
 

powda

Baby can you dig your man?
Yes, I read about that. How he said the ball sailed on him.
The point remains that Still needs to work to get to an open space and never let the CB cross his face, just the same.
Just looked like late effort. If he cut like he should've he'd be open by a mile.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
If you slow the play down, you'll see that when he made his cut toward playside, Stills and the deep safety were at about the same level, with Stills actually closer to the ball.
They both get the same look at the ball.
There's no reason why it shouldn't be at least a jump ball situation.
 

76Texan

Hall of Fame
That begs the question, what is fg range?
They were at the 43.
My other contention would be that O'Brien should have called a play with a medium route for the chance at the FG.

Like up thread, I mentioned a play with Brees and the Saints where they were at the opponents 40.
They left one man as the extra blockers and ran four quick short routes.
Brees picked the one he likes the best and went for it, enough to get into FG range.
 

Earl34

Veteran
That begs the question, what is fg range?
Good question and keep in mind that Heinz Field is notorious for swirling winds coming off the rivers and a tough place for kickers. So with that in mind, what is FG range under those conditions for Fairbairn?
 

Mr teX

Hall of Fame
They were at the 43.
My other contention would be that O'Brien should have called a play with a medium route for the chance at the FG.

Like up thread, I mentioned a play with Brees and the Saints where they were at the opponents 40.
They left one man as the extra blockers and ran four quick short routes.
Brees picked the one he likes the best and went for it, enough to get into FG range.
:corrosion:

Fuller's deep over route was the medium route genius.
 

Corrosion

Idealist
Staff member
Agreed.

3rd and 15 comes around too often for this team IMO. When they do - the offensive play has to be creative to the point of allowing someone to come free; the quarterback has to make good decisions quickly; and everybody else has to execute.

Totally excusing or blaming one player over a series of bad downs gets us nowhere. I’ve been really surprised how much energy has gone into debating this one play. So many things have gone wrong for the Texans in less than a year.
This play is a real good example of the issues of this offense and a prime example that the scheme - No One's Open - is a false narrative.

There are THREE open pass catchers on this play , two of them short and the first was deep up the near hash.

This is very much the routine , not a rarity.

A lot is at stake here.
A number of people have been wrongly criticizing Watson for not looking to take the check down first. (And therefore not learning the art of QBacking.)

This thread is to show that he was doing the same thing that all of those great QBs were doing in the same/similar instances (3rd and very long).
They were all looking for the deep throw first just like Watson did.

No , that's where you are wrong - we're not criticizing Watson for not looking to take the checkdown first - We're criticizing him for
A) Failing to identify the first deep opening up the near hash - Long before the pressure got to him
B) for not taking the checkdown instead of forcing a very poor throw that turns into a turnover.
 

thunderkyss

Just win baby!!!
Staff member
Contributor's Club
Watson had several options to hit other receivers that could have easily at least gotten into FG range.

Here is a video of the play:

https://video.steelcityunderground.com/POTG-20/2020_POTG_RegWk03_HiltonINT.mp4?_=1
not at all impressed with 78 on that play. Did he hear a whistle or something?

I buy Watson’s “explanation” that he was looking to throw it to Fuller. That makes perfect sense.

To me, it looks like he’s looking at the safety on the left hash. That guy sits, so I would think a throw over the top to Stills is where he wanted to go. He steps forward, then takes a 2nd step forward. Pretty much saying he changed his mind & is not going to throw it to Stills.

I think he changes his mind because the guy lined up over the slot on the right side drops very fast to cover the deep middle & Stills was running right at him.

The Steelers did a good job of presenting one look before the snap & quickly morph into something completely different after the snap. I’d bet Watson was expecting a two deep safeties in qtrs coverage. But both safeties stay shallow, baiting him into the deep throw. But He saw the DB racing deep at the last minute & changed his mind.

Maybe he thought to dump it to the TE, but after that second hitch he made, he’s too close to his line & he knows he cannot trust them. I don’t know.

But the biggest fault here is that extremely rich man who got beat off the snap. His defender flashes to the outside forcing Watson to step up a little quicker than he wanted too (perhaps). Then 78 gets beat to the inside & calls it a day.

If Watson can trust that guy to play to the whistle he could have stayed in the pocket & go from Stills to Fuller to check down. Fuller would have been a good target right after he made his break.

it was really a nice combination of routes. Even the guy wide right was open at his break. Easily would have picked up 15 yards if 78 did his job.
 


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