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Voice of the Fan- Amen I say to you!
- Thread starter BigWig
- Start date
Vinny
shiny happy fan
Voice of the Fan
By Alan J. Burge
Special to HoustonTexans.com
EDITOR'S NOTE: Texans fan Alan J. Burge continues to write his "Voice of the Fan" column for HoustonTexans.com. His latest installment is below. Alan's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the organization.
Seize the Day
As if there havent been enough wildfires in this neck of the woods lately.
Texans fans found themselves being sucked into the perfect NFL off-season storm on Saturday when ESPN reported the Texans would select Reggie Bush with the number one pick in the 2006 NFL draft, even if Vince Young also entered the draft. On Sunday, Young declared his intent to enter the draft and Bush will soon follow.
Wasnt it just last week that we were arguing about the ethics of losing to the 49ers so the Texans could select Bush with the first pick in the NFL Draft? Didnt life seem so much simpler then?
Then came the Rose Bowl.
But its just one game, you say.
Well, no, it really wasn't.
Before the Rose Bowl, and even though he dominated at the NCAA Division I level for two seasons, Vince had yet to drive home the fact that he really was the best player in college football. He knew that he was the best. His teammates knew it. Some of his fans knew it. But on that Wednesday night in Pasadena, Vince made sure that millions more would know it. Chief Osceola couldn't have driven the point home any better.
Where were all the Vince supporters and all this debate before the Rose Bowl? Well, there really wasnt much debate because as recently as five days ago the widespread belief was that Vince was going to remain in the comfort of the 40 acres, like all good Longhorns, instead of forging ahead into the vast NFL wilderness.
National championships and signature games by great players on the big stage have a way of changing perspectives even among those who rarely if ever overreact.
So let the debates begin. Bush or Young? Young or Carr?
Bush is a great talent but Young is a great talent and even greater leader. In three months, the Texans will have an opportunity to select a quarterback who is a game changer, a rare athlete with outstanding leadership skills who will win at the next level. It's in his makeup. The fact that he's a local makes it even more intriguing - and more troublesome if we lose him, especially to a division rival. Especially that division rival.
The scenario painted in the ESPN reports had Bush going to the Texans, Leinart to the Saints, and Vince Young to the Titans. Hmmm.
Allow me to go on record and say that the nightmare scenario of losing Vince Young to Tennessee, or anyone else for that matter, could be the biggest sports blunder in the history of this city. Furthermore, fans would never forgive this franchise for letting such a great player - arguably the best football player ever to come out of Houston, and one of the two best to come out of the University of Texas fall into the hands of Bud Adams.
If Vince ends up in Tennessee and does well - and there's no reason to believe he won't do very well - there will be more Titans fans in Houston (and Austin) than Texans fans in Houston. Why not just turn the city over to Cowboys and Titans fans while you're at it?
But its all about winning, right? Who cares about where the player is from or where he went to school as long as the team wins?
Its true that winning will keep the fans happy more than a roster full of locals. Its also true that Vince Young is a winner.
This isnt about drafting the local kid who did well or appeasing the orange blood masses. This is about an opportunity to draft one of the greatest college football players in recent memory, and make him a member of the Houston Texans. The fact that Houston is his hometown is secondary but the fact that fans would be fighting over tickets is music to the ears of a stressed-out marketing department.
Bush has been showered with his own set of accolades by being mentioned in the same sentence with Gale Sayers and Barry Sanders. But despite the Bush allure, Vince has risen to the top of this debate by improving his quarterback skills by orders of magnitude over the last two years, and by demonstrating unquestioned leadership ability.
To pass on Vince in this draft would be a huge mistake - one that could set this franchise back another lifecycle. The chance that Young could come back to torment us twice a year for the next 10 years would be salt in the wound.
But wouldnt Bush in a Tennessee uniform have the same effect from a competition standpoint?
Maybe, but ask yourself this question: Would the Texans be better off with Reggie Bush touching the ball 15 times per game with David Carr at quarterback, or with Vince touching it 60 times a game granted one-third of those would be handoffs to Domanick Davis but with the added threat of run or pass to speedy wide receivers Andre Johnson and Jerome Mathis, or maybe even to a (gasp) tight end?
While a lineup of Carr, Johnson, Mathis, Bush and Davis on the field at the same time sounds intriguing, a lineup of Vince, Johnson, Mathis, Davis, and a new offensive lineman with the second pick in the draft also sounds very intriguing along with some defensive help of course.
The difference maker is that Vince's superior vision and escapability from the pocket will totally change the way defenses attack the Texans quarterback. It will also take pressure off a much-maligned offensive line. No longer will pass rushers be able to simply squeeze to a point five yards deep in the pocket with their rush packages. The Texans' offensive line would have to become more agile with a quarterback like Young but that is certainly part of the blueprint already, regardless of who plays quarterback in the future.
Vince won't be able to run as much in the pros as he did in college but just the threat changes everything, just like it did for Steve McNair and Steve Young. I can see Vince on a very similar track as Steve McNair in the pros. In his early years, Young can take advantage of his running skills while he continues to develop his passing game.
Where will we be in three years with David Carr? No one knows, but we know where weve been for the last four. While Carr has a leg up on any rookie in terms of NFL experience, most of his experience is bad so he has a bit of a hole to climb out of himself before he becomes comfortable in the new Texans offense. Excuse me for feeling this way but if I have to wait any more than I already have for a quarterback to develop, then Id rather watch Vince while I wait this time around.
Where does this leave Carr?
Early reports out of Reliant Park had the Texans giving Carr an $8 million option bonus to execute the final three years of his multi-million dollar contract. While it would be nice to see what Carr could do in a system designed by say, Gary Kubiak, its also quite evident that many fans are losing patience with Carr, who would have to show marked improvement almost immediately in a new system to satisfy a restless fan base.
Fair or not, Texans fans wont have a lot of patience waiting for a quarterback in his fifth NFL season to finally reach his potential as he becomes acclimated to a new offense. While Carr has shown a few spurts and glimmers of good play here and there over the past four seasons, not all of the offensive woes can be blamed on poor coaching or lack of talent on the offensive line.
The best options for Carr may be to offer him the two-year option, which reduces the signing bonus to $5 million instead of the $8 million that the three-year option would require. A two-year deal would allow Vince to come in and understudy for a year and even though it would be uncomfortable for Carr, who has never had legitimate competition, it worked in San Diego with Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers.
The two-year deal could set up trade opportunities as would a one-year transition tag and contract which would pay Carr the average of the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL (or 120 percent of his last years salary, whichever is greater). Outright release is another option but that doesnt seem to be the best option from a business or football perspective.
If I was on the Texans head coaching interview team, I would start off the interview with this question:
Tell us about your offensive philosophy and what the playbook would look like with a) David Carr at quarterback and b) Vince Young at quarterback. The floor is yours, you have one hour.
Carpe diem, Mr. McNair.
You can email Alan Burge at: aj_texans@yahoo.com
By Alan J. Burge
Special to HoustonTexans.com
EDITOR'S NOTE: Texans fan Alan J. Burge continues to write his "Voice of the Fan" column for HoustonTexans.com. His latest installment is below. Alan's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the organization.
Seize the Day
As if there havent been enough wildfires in this neck of the woods lately.
Texans fans found themselves being sucked into the perfect NFL off-season storm on Saturday when ESPN reported the Texans would select Reggie Bush with the number one pick in the 2006 NFL draft, even if Vince Young also entered the draft. On Sunday, Young declared his intent to enter the draft and Bush will soon follow.
Wasnt it just last week that we were arguing about the ethics of losing to the 49ers so the Texans could select Bush with the first pick in the NFL Draft? Didnt life seem so much simpler then?
Then came the Rose Bowl.
But its just one game, you say.
Well, no, it really wasn't.
Before the Rose Bowl, and even though he dominated at the NCAA Division I level for two seasons, Vince had yet to drive home the fact that he really was the best player in college football. He knew that he was the best. His teammates knew it. Some of his fans knew it. But on that Wednesday night in Pasadena, Vince made sure that millions more would know it. Chief Osceola couldn't have driven the point home any better.
Where were all the Vince supporters and all this debate before the Rose Bowl? Well, there really wasnt much debate because as recently as five days ago the widespread belief was that Vince was going to remain in the comfort of the 40 acres, like all good Longhorns, instead of forging ahead into the vast NFL wilderness.
National championships and signature games by great players on the big stage have a way of changing perspectives even among those who rarely if ever overreact.
So let the debates begin. Bush or Young? Young or Carr?
Bush is a great talent but Young is a great talent and even greater leader. In three months, the Texans will have an opportunity to select a quarterback who is a game changer, a rare athlete with outstanding leadership skills who will win at the next level. It's in his makeup. The fact that he's a local makes it even more intriguing - and more troublesome if we lose him, especially to a division rival. Especially that division rival.
The scenario painted in the ESPN reports had Bush going to the Texans, Leinart to the Saints, and Vince Young to the Titans. Hmmm.
Allow me to go on record and say that the nightmare scenario of losing Vince Young to Tennessee, or anyone else for that matter, could be the biggest sports blunder in the history of this city. Furthermore, fans would never forgive this franchise for letting such a great player - arguably the best football player ever to come out of Houston, and one of the two best to come out of the University of Texas fall into the hands of Bud Adams.
If Vince ends up in Tennessee and does well - and there's no reason to believe he won't do very well - there will be more Titans fans in Houston (and Austin) than Texans fans in Houston. Why not just turn the city over to Cowboys and Titans fans while you're at it?
But its all about winning, right? Who cares about where the player is from or where he went to school as long as the team wins?
Its true that winning will keep the fans happy more than a roster full of locals. Its also true that Vince Young is a winner.
This isnt about drafting the local kid who did well or appeasing the orange blood masses. This is about an opportunity to draft one of the greatest college football players in recent memory, and make him a member of the Houston Texans. The fact that Houston is his hometown is secondary but the fact that fans would be fighting over tickets is music to the ears of a stressed-out marketing department.
Bush has been showered with his own set of accolades by being mentioned in the same sentence with Gale Sayers and Barry Sanders. But despite the Bush allure, Vince has risen to the top of this debate by improving his quarterback skills by orders of magnitude over the last two years, and by demonstrating unquestioned leadership ability.
To pass on Vince in this draft would be a huge mistake - one that could set this franchise back another lifecycle. The chance that Young could come back to torment us twice a year for the next 10 years would be salt in the wound.
But wouldnt Bush in a Tennessee uniform have the same effect from a competition standpoint?
Maybe, but ask yourself this question: Would the Texans be better off with Reggie Bush touching the ball 15 times per game with David Carr at quarterback, or with Vince touching it 60 times a game granted one-third of those would be handoffs to Domanick Davis but with the added threat of run or pass to speedy wide receivers Andre Johnson and Jerome Mathis, or maybe even to a (gasp) tight end?
While a lineup of Carr, Johnson, Mathis, Bush and Davis on the field at the same time sounds intriguing, a lineup of Vince, Johnson, Mathis, Davis, and a new offensive lineman with the second pick in the draft also sounds very intriguing along with some defensive help of course.
The difference maker is that Vince's superior vision and escapability from the pocket will totally change the way defenses attack the Texans quarterback. It will also take pressure off a much-maligned offensive line. No longer will pass rushers be able to simply squeeze to a point five yards deep in the pocket with their rush packages. The Texans' offensive line would have to become more agile with a quarterback like Young but that is certainly part of the blueprint already, regardless of who plays quarterback in the future.
Vince won't be able to run as much in the pros as he did in college but just the threat changes everything, just like it did for Steve McNair and Steve Young. I can see Vince on a very similar track as Steve McNair in the pros. In his early years, Young can take advantage of his running skills while he continues to develop his passing game.
Where will we be in three years with David Carr? No one knows, but we know where weve been for the last four. While Carr has a leg up on any rookie in terms of NFL experience, most of his experience is bad so he has a bit of a hole to climb out of himself before he becomes comfortable in the new Texans offense. Excuse me for feeling this way but if I have to wait any more than I already have for a quarterback to develop, then Id rather watch Vince while I wait this time around.
Where does this leave Carr?
Early reports out of Reliant Park had the Texans giving Carr an $8 million option bonus to execute the final three years of his multi-million dollar contract. While it would be nice to see what Carr could do in a system designed by say, Gary Kubiak, its also quite evident that many fans are losing patience with Carr, who would have to show marked improvement almost immediately in a new system to satisfy a restless fan base.
Fair or not, Texans fans wont have a lot of patience waiting for a quarterback in his fifth NFL season to finally reach his potential as he becomes acclimated to a new offense. While Carr has shown a few spurts and glimmers of good play here and there over the past four seasons, not all of the offensive woes can be blamed on poor coaching or lack of talent on the offensive line.
The best options for Carr may be to offer him the two-year option, which reduces the signing bonus to $5 million instead of the $8 million that the three-year option would require. A two-year deal would allow Vince to come in and understudy for a year and even though it would be uncomfortable for Carr, who has never had legitimate competition, it worked in San Diego with Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers.
The two-year deal could set up trade opportunities as would a one-year transition tag and contract which would pay Carr the average of the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL (or 120 percent of his last years salary, whichever is greater). Outright release is another option but that doesnt seem to be the best option from a business or football perspective.
If I was on the Texans head coaching interview team, I would start off the interview with this question:
Tell us about your offensive philosophy and what the playbook would look like with a) David Carr at quarterback and b) Vince Young at quarterback. The floor is yours, you have one hour.
Carpe diem, Mr. McNair.
You can email Alan Burge at: aj_texans@yahoo.com
Texans_Chick
Utopian Dreamer
Well thought out and reasoned.
That is the article that Richard Justice shoulda wrote in support for drafting VY. Both Lopez and Justice's articles on Draft Bush v. Draft Young were kinda weak. Imagine that.
I must leave now. I am fixing to go get Draft VY shirts printed. For my own personal attire.
Maybe I should make it "Draft Vince" so that more of the general public will understand what my shirt means. lol.
That is the article that Richard Justice shoulda wrote in support for drafting VY. Both Lopez and Justice's articles on Draft Bush v. Draft Young were kinda weak. Imagine that.
I must leave now. I am fixing to go get Draft VY shirts printed. For my own personal attire.
Maybe I should make it "Draft Vince" so that more of the general public will understand what my shirt means. lol.
Good job, aj. One of the best, well though out takes on reasons to take Young. I'm impressed, and it is definitely a valid case to be made.
There are so many emotions to ride right now: Young is from H-town, represents the state school, and could very well be one of the great QBs over time (already is in terms of his college legend).
Add into the mix that he could end up with one of our most hated rivals, and it makes your blood boil. Seeing Young develop into a superstar, and then have to face him twice a year, just creates more turmoil in the brain.
Young has got "it". That intangible quality of leadership and championship drive. I have to wonder if it would mean all that more to him to represent his hometown. I'd venture a guess that it would mean a lot, and he would rise to the challenge.
The key is Carr. Is he worth $8 million? Will a new offensive scheme and [hopefully] an upgraded o-line make him better? Can a new approach make him stop certain troublesome tendencies that he hasn't been able to shake since college?
Truly the decision is not between Bush or Young. The crux of the matter is do we stick with Carr, or do we go ahead and rebuild with a rookie QB and hope Young can live up to his hype.
It's a tough decision, probably the hardest this franchise has had to make. And I'm glad I don't have to make it!
There are so many emotions to ride right now: Young is from H-town, represents the state school, and could very well be one of the great QBs over time (already is in terms of his college legend).
Add into the mix that he could end up with one of our most hated rivals, and it makes your blood boil. Seeing Young develop into a superstar, and then have to face him twice a year, just creates more turmoil in the brain.
Young has got "it". That intangible quality of leadership and championship drive. I have to wonder if it would mean all that more to him to represent his hometown. I'd venture a guess that it would mean a lot, and he would rise to the challenge.
The key is Carr. Is he worth $8 million? Will a new offensive scheme and [hopefully] an upgraded o-line make him better? Can a new approach make him stop certain troublesome tendencies that he hasn't been able to shake since college?
Truly the decision is not between Bush or Young. The crux of the matter is do we stick with Carr, or do we go ahead and rebuild with a rookie QB and hope Young can live up to his hype.
It's a tough decision, probably the hardest this franchise has had to make. And I'm glad I don't have to make it!
Exactly what I've been trying to say.
SBTexans08
Rookie
Great article....I still think Young is not what the Texans need though.
Htown34s
Waterboy
I think AJ tapped into my brain when he wrote this article; these are the same points I've been trying to make.
One more, I think McNair is worried that the fans won't like waiting another few years while watching a young QB develop. But the truth is, Carr still needs to develop, and I think what fans are really sick of is waiting to see some improvement from David because in the back of their minds they have some thoughts the he never will. Watching VY develop would actually make fans more patient IMO.
Also, it could wreck this franchise if the only sold out game at Reliant every year would be the game against Tennessee...with half of the stadium wearing Titans gear while cheering for Vince.
One more, I think McNair is worried that the fans won't like waiting another few years while watching a young QB develop. But the truth is, Carr still needs to develop, and I think what fans are really sick of is waiting to see some improvement from David because in the back of their minds they have some thoughts the he never will. Watching VY develop would actually make fans more patient IMO.
Also, it could wreck this franchise if the only sold out game at Reliant every year would be the game against Tennessee...with half of the stadium wearing Titans gear while cheering for Vince.
Texan Asylum
Hall of Fame
Being a Carr fan, it's a painfull read. Being a Texan fan, it's a very thought provoking read. Everything AJ's written, IMO, has been pretty much dead on. I'm open to all avenues that'll improve this team. By the way, is AJ of "Voice of the Fan" the same AJ that posts on this board?
Double Barrel said:
My take on this, is that yeah, Young's success in the NFL isn't Gauranteed, but to this point we should all know Carr's isn't either. Oh his name will go down in the history books, but as the most sacked QB of all time. I like Carr, I really do. If there was a thread on this board knocking Carr, if I were around, I'd be one of the guys defineding him, and bashing the O-Line, with statements like "if you don't give hime time...." I'm also one of those guys who don't go for changing out the QB for the sake of changing out the QB. Teams need stability, and consistency. That starts at QB, on the field.
Besides, I don't want to replace Carr, I want to replace Tony Banks...... what's the point of hanging on to him?? We need a young guy back their now that Carr has 4 years under his belt. We need a Garard, a Fitzpatrick, a Jamie Martin.... a Vince Young.
Htown34s
Waterboy
BTW Texan Asylum, love the avatar. I remember seeing that game as a kid (playoff game I think?).
Another thing to point out for the Bush lovers is that we will have $60 million wrapped up in 2 RB's, which could be very crippling to a team also. RB's come around all the time. Did anyone see Deshaun Foster yesterday? That rookie RB down in Tampa Bay isn't bad either. Every team has a good RB, but only half have a decent QB. Scambling QB's usually fare better in the NFL than RB's who rely on hitting the outside edge.
Another thing to point out for the Bush lovers is that we will have $60 million wrapped up in 2 RB's, which could be very crippling to a team also. RB's come around all the time. Did anyone see Deshaun Foster yesterday? That rookie RB down in Tampa Bay isn't bad either. Every team has a good RB, but only half have a decent QB. Scambling QB's usually fare better in the NFL than RB's who rely on hitting the outside edge.
SBTexans08
Rookie
jerek said:
But...he beat a top ranked Ohio St. defense, in story book ending fashion early in the season as well. He passed more in that game too.....DIDN'T run ofr 200 yards either in order to win. So to say that he only won because of that porous USC defense is pretty null when in retrospect...you consider the Ohio St. and Virginia Tech games. In these games....the only thing that screams out is.....Vince Young is a WINNER!!
im not seeing it. Hes a winner? yah..he won games in college.. he isnt the first. He is no more a sure thing than Bush or Lienart.. and his abilities as a rushing QB are not a bonus in my book. Rushing QBs dont win superbowls.
Nicely written article..but i disagree on just about everything.
Nicely written article..but i disagree on just about everything.
an article on rushing QBs.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589
more reason to stick with Carr imo.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs05/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2277589
more reason to stick with Carr imo.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Grid said:
seems to be a case for leinart to me.....didnt carr have like the 3rd most rushing yards for a qb in the league? Carr is a rushing QB, he just hasnt done anything in 4 years of nfl experience. Vince Young could be better. Nobody knows. Its like a 4 month MYSTERY!
groutfulone
Practice Squad
All of you people who don't believe in Young's ability must not have watched him very much.
The reason USC's defense was wide open was because of Young. Just like every other D they faced. Example: 4th down, end of game, everyone in the world knows that VY will run right, but USC can't clamp down on him because if they bite, he is smart enough and accurate enough to nail one of his receivers. That is why he is dangerous. And he will be just as dangerous in the NFL in the same way Steve Young and John Elway froze up defenders when outside the pocket.
And to the real haters who are sickened by all the hype since the Rose Bowl: it wasn't here before because there was very little evidence that VY was coming out. Now that he is everything has changed.
The reason USC's defense was wide open was because of Young. Just like every other D they faced. Example: 4th down, end of game, everyone in the world knows that VY will run right, but USC can't clamp down on him because if they bite, he is smart enough and accurate enough to nail one of his receivers. That is why he is dangerous. And he will be just as dangerous in the NFL in the same way Steve Young and John Elway froze up defenders when outside the pocket.
And to the real haters who are sickened by all the hype since the Rose Bowl: it wasn't here before because there was very little evidence that VY was coming out. Now that he is everything has changed.
groutfulone
Practice Squad
Grid said:
With 3000+ yds passing and and a 66.3% completion rate (includes the rose bowl) VY is not a rushing QB.
He is a QB.
The thing that this writer doesn't understand and the same thing that most naysayers don't understand is this:
Vince Young is the culmination of the supposed athletic quarterback revoltion. He is what it has been building up to. Some of us realized it three years ago when he began playing at Texas and now the College world realizes it. The NFL will learn also. I only hope that it is the Texans teaching them.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Grid said:
fair enough. I just thought i would try to bring a sane, rational, non screaming response to this board...you know, mix it up a little! Just cause i have a vince young avatar doesnt mean im foaming orange at the mouth. I bleed battle red just like anyone else. I've said it before, i'll say it again. If we draft Snarfee McGee with the #1 pick, heck i'll go out and buy his jersey too. Im a fan of the texans, im a fan of vince young, and if the 2 can merge that'd be swell. If they cant......reggie is still gonna be a bust! (snickers and runs away)
Vinny
shiny happy fan
SBTexans08
Rookie
Hmmm....listen...I was just giving info. I too don't feel Vince is what the Texans need. I say draft Reggie!! But....Vince has done more than that USC game....and no it's not just one game that changed people's minds. It's that one game that sealed the deal. He finished off the seaon in a manner that couldn't be beat.....on the highest note possible.jerek said:
AustinJB
Rookie
groutfulone said:
I agree. I'm so sick of everyone saying that all the hype is b/c he had one great game. All of the hype is b/c he is a phenomenol athelete and QUARTERBACK. The Rose Bowl game just elevated the nation's awareness of his abilities and allowed him to enter the draft a year early. If everyone would have known that he was coming out a year early, I dare say that the chants at the end of the year would have been "VINCE, VINCE" instead of "REGGIE, REGGIE"
so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God 
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
Grid said:so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
How is David Carr sitting in that solid, roomy, houston pocket making plays with his arm working out for us?
groutfulone
Practice Squad
Grid said:so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
I shouldn't bite, but this post is so silly I have to.
The next evolutionary step of mankind? Man, get a grip. I said he was the culmination of the developing "athletic quarterback". Stop being so melodramatic.
Just a rushing QB? Just shows how little you have watched him.
SBTexans08
Rookie
I tell ya what....I'm all for Reggie....for the record. But...I'll take that play made you are talking about, with the legs or arm over no plays that plagued the Texans this season.Grid said:
Hardcore Texan
Magnet Man
I have always liked the "Voice of the Fan" segments. I was disappointed to see him disappear for a long time during the season, during the darkest part of the season, those gutwrenching last minute loses. I guess I was hoping some of the orginization would see those articles, as he does a good job conveying the fan's feelings/frustrations IMO. But he didn't write again until Dan Reeves was hired.
AustinJB
Rookie
Grid said:so now he isnt just a QB and a promising college prospect.. he is the next evolutionary step of mankind? wow.. we better be careful.. the last city that worshipped idols like this got struck down by God
hes a rushing QB.. plain and simple. He likes to run... he will run to "make a play" instead of staying in the pocket and trying to make a play with his arm.
WRONG. That was last year. This year he made a point in the offseason to work on just that. That is why defenses could not stop him this year whereas some did last year. For all the people that think they can stack the box and stop VY, they are wrong. If you do that, he WILL throw, accurately I might add. That's what the best defense he faced all year (Ohio State), did and he threw the ball to beat them. I know that the NFL is a different story, but that is where his upside, leadership and work ethic come in. He has improved every single year he has played...no reason to think that he will not do the same on the pro level.
Kaiser Toro
Native Mod
Good article that clearly illustrates a take on a possible option to use the first pick on. Whether it be this option or Bush or trading down it comes down to one thing - what do we do with David Carr? This is the domino that must fall first.
Errant Hothy
Hypermediocrity
groutfulone said:
The same could be said of you.
VY is a rushing QB running a GIMMICK offense ( the same gimmick Utah, Tech, Michigan State and several others run) called the spread. Add to that the main running plays were all option reads (a play that has no change of working in teh NFL), a tendancy to float the occsional pass, the most horrid throwing motion I've seen on a top QB prospect in forever, and I've never seen him throw an 10-15 yard out pass, ever in college. Nor has anybody seen him take a snap fom center, take a 7 step drop, and make a pass against D that isn't overly concerned about stopping him from running (cause he ain't Vick and I don't think most Dline and LB corps will be as frightened of him as USC was)
As an athlete he is a freak of nature, as a QB prospect I'm not so sure. I mean he has 1 good year passing in college, remind you of anybody already on the roster?
Damnit I promised myself I'd stay out of this!! And why does this happen to this board every year, first it was Taylor, then DJ, now its VY.:brickwall
S
SESupergenius
Guest
That was an article to pretty much set Carr up for failure. There seems to be one of those "greatest players we've seen in a long time" quotes that people fling out to sound cute. Passing on Carr could set us back a generation as well, or worse, you select Young to back up Carr and you still don't have an impact player at the needed skill positions for at least 2 years all the while setting up Carr to fail because you didn't add a needed impact player in this draft for his offense. You take away a top pick in the draft from Carr to work with now, because that top pick is now sitting behind Carr waiting for him to fail and won't add anything to Carrs cause, which is the main reason our offense stunk for so long. Then if Carr fails Young gets a free pass to learn the system and add at least 2 more years to figure out if he is any good in the NFL. What weapons on offense to do we really have? Andre Johnson. DD? Please. Carr now has to pick up a new system, new Coordinators, new coaching staff and I just can't wait for the fans to swing this one into the "I told we should have starter Young" debate when Carr isn't given a learning curve. What is the learning curve when a new QB is inserting in Shanahans system? Let's go ahead and put that down on record now before the next season starts.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
SESupergenius said:
The problem is, you cant be in year 5 of your career and be allotted a learning curve. Carr has to adjust now, as harsh as that sounds. The franchise cant give him 8 years of opportunity just to see if he COULD be sucessfull. You know why young gets a free pass to learn the system? cause he would be a ROOKIE. It takes time to develop rookie quarterbacks. However, Carr is a 4 year veteran. It should not still be taking time for him to develop. So what if you give carr your "learning curve", and gasp...he stilll isnt getting it done. Then you've wasted 7 years and several million dollars on what people are seeing now.....a lot of blown potential.
LBC_Justin
Rookie
I think the article was good. I would love to have Vince.Alan J. Burge said:
But I am a man of logic and this part of the article lacked logic.
Why would he talk about the benefits of having Vince with a tight-end, a new offensive lineman, an some defensive help, but not give that to Carr also? didn't make sense and smacked of bias.
Heck I would think if Carr had Bush, Davis, Johnson, Mathis, a new tight-end, a new offensive lineman, and some defensive help that would be pretty great too.
again I am a Vince Young fan and I have been flip flopping more on these issues than John Kerry. I think I might be going crazy.
swtbound07
Jackass of Day!
shrug...i want us to win. Carr/Young/Montana out of Retirement/Bush/Davis/Lawrence Taylor.....
I dont even care anymore. Just flip our record to 14-2 and give me a nice shiny trophy to go look at
I dont even care anymore. Just flip our record to 14-2 and give me a nice shiny trophy to go look at
texasguy346
Mod Squad
Great work yet again by aj. I'm a bit on the fence still in the whole Young/Bush/ Trade Down argument. They each have their own level of risk/reward, and just like with anything else the higher the risk the higher the possible reward.
IMO Young is probably the most risky pick at this point if taken at #1 overall. He's a great talent, and I'm not saying his game won't translate to the NFL game. With Young & Carr on the team you have a very good chance of having a QB controversy on your hands. That's hard enough for seasoned NFL teams to deal with much less a team that's just had an absolutely horrid season and lacking any confidence whatsoever. You'll have some players move to the Carr's the starter camp, and some who move to the Young should be the starter camp. Many will point to the SD scenario, and how they've managed to deal with it. That's very true, but SD managed to win. Something our Texans aren't likely to do next season with Carr or Young undercenter. Winning fixes everything, but when you're losing the finger pointing starts. Young also has the highest reward. He could be Donovan McNabb type of player. He'd be the face of the franchise, and he could be a consistant winner who always makes the big play when called on. He'll sell tons of tickets. He might even lead the Texans to the Super Bowl.
Then you have Bush being picked at #1. The risk level on this pick isn't quite as high as with VY, but it's still close. You won't have a RB controversy. You can design plays to have both players on the field at the same time, and you can put Reggie in motion get him matched up on a LB in the open field and let him cause headaches for the opposing teams defense. You can put Reggie back to return kicks with Mathis, and let kickers pick their poison. He's a playmaker plain and simple, and the Texans definately have a need for another playmaker. You do still risk quite a bit with this pick though. The worse case scenario is that you take Bush at #1, and the Titans take Young at #3. This scenario has been covered plenty of times so I won't go into much more detail than that. You're also risking that Bush won't ever live up to his hype. He'll forever play in the shadow of Vince Young in the hearts and minds of Texans fans, and the What Ifs will be endless. Perhaps Bush looks more like Kevin Jones early in his NFL career than Gayle Sayers. Fans won't be very patient with him. Especially if Young is cruising along swimmingly with the Titans. This could very well erode part of your fanbase.
Finally the Trade Down scenario. This is by far the least risky choice. Along with a minimal risk you face a minimal reward. Sure we could trade down to the 4th or 6th pick and perhaps pick up Ferguson or Hawk or someone along those lines. We would have to be blown away with a great deal of course, but stranger things have happened. Rationally if we managed to get 4 or 5 starters out of this trade, and perhaps 2 or 3 Pro Bowl caliber players we'd be in a good position. We'd be better able to right the ship, and we'd have a better shot at doing more winning in 07 with the extra picks/talent. The risk here is that Young and Bush could go on to be great NFL players, and with CC at the helm all those extra picks might not amount to much more than a few 'magic' beans. This would be a bigger slap in the face to the fans that just passing on Young because CC would have essientially passed on both Bush and Young.
In the end I'm glad I'm not the one having to make this decision. It's a tough problem, and it will be pivotal to this franchises development. If we make the right decision this franchise could be headed toward the success we've always dreamed of, but if we make the wrong decision this franchise could be nosediving to the bottom of the league for years and years to come. Keep in mind though that the right decision is very seldom the popular decision. This time I'm not sure what is the right choice.
IMO Young is probably the most risky pick at this point if taken at #1 overall. He's a great talent, and I'm not saying his game won't translate to the NFL game. With Young & Carr on the team you have a very good chance of having a QB controversy on your hands. That's hard enough for seasoned NFL teams to deal with much less a team that's just had an absolutely horrid season and lacking any confidence whatsoever. You'll have some players move to the Carr's the starter camp, and some who move to the Young should be the starter camp. Many will point to the SD scenario, and how they've managed to deal with it. That's very true, but SD managed to win. Something our Texans aren't likely to do next season with Carr or Young undercenter. Winning fixes everything, but when you're losing the finger pointing starts. Young also has the highest reward. He could be Donovan McNabb type of player. He'd be the face of the franchise, and he could be a consistant winner who always makes the big play when called on. He'll sell tons of tickets. He might even lead the Texans to the Super Bowl.
Then you have Bush being picked at #1. The risk level on this pick isn't quite as high as with VY, but it's still close. You won't have a RB controversy. You can design plays to have both players on the field at the same time, and you can put Reggie in motion get him matched up on a LB in the open field and let him cause headaches for the opposing teams defense. You can put Reggie back to return kicks with Mathis, and let kickers pick their poison. He's a playmaker plain and simple, and the Texans definately have a need for another playmaker. You do still risk quite a bit with this pick though. The worse case scenario is that you take Bush at #1, and the Titans take Young at #3. This scenario has been covered plenty of times so I won't go into much more detail than that. You're also risking that Bush won't ever live up to his hype. He'll forever play in the shadow of Vince Young in the hearts and minds of Texans fans, and the What Ifs will be endless. Perhaps Bush looks more like Kevin Jones early in his NFL career than Gayle Sayers. Fans won't be very patient with him. Especially if Young is cruising along swimmingly with the Titans. This could very well erode part of your fanbase.
Finally the Trade Down scenario. This is by far the least risky choice. Along with a minimal risk you face a minimal reward. Sure we could trade down to the 4th or 6th pick and perhaps pick up Ferguson or Hawk or someone along those lines. We would have to be blown away with a great deal of course, but stranger things have happened. Rationally if we managed to get 4 or 5 starters out of this trade, and perhaps 2 or 3 Pro Bowl caliber players we'd be in a good position. We'd be better able to right the ship, and we'd have a better shot at doing more winning in 07 with the extra picks/talent. The risk here is that Young and Bush could go on to be great NFL players, and with CC at the helm all those extra picks might not amount to much more than a few 'magic' beans. This would be a bigger slap in the face to the fans that just passing on Young because CC would have essientially passed on both Bush and Young.
In the end I'm glad I'm not the one having to make this decision. It's a tough problem, and it will be pivotal to this franchises development. If we make the right decision this franchise could be headed toward the success we've always dreamed of, but if we make the wrong decision this franchise could be nosediving to the bottom of the league for years and years to come. Keep in mind though that the right decision is very seldom the popular decision. This time I'm not sure what is the right choice.
Rushing QB's (or better yet, QB's that can run) can't go to or win Super Bowls?
Steve Young, John Elway, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair, and Fran Tarkington all had pretty good legs. All could run around like crazy to make a play.
Steve Young, John Elway, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair, and Fran Tarkington all had pretty good legs. All could run around like crazy to make a play.
very well written article aj_, and I agree totally. Sign Carr to a 2 year deal, give Young a year to pick up the game and offensive scheme, play him where you can slip him in to get some gametime, at the end of a game possibly. Then drop the 'potentially great, but in reality never did anything even remotely good' Carr like a bad habit. The guy has had more time to improve and show his potential than most QB's and alot of Head Coach's get in the NFL. He had his chance and never achieved anything, get rid of him, IMHO.
Couple your article with the thought that I do not understand how the Texans are going to draft a RB, ANY RB, as the first pick, with the money that goes into the first pick and the current salary's of RB's in the NFL. Why not take Young as our first pick and take a FA RB who has proven themselves to be an every down quality RB, like James who will most likely be a FA after this year. Or any other quality RB. Reggie Bush sure didn't impress me as the next Ricky Williams/ Shaun Alexander type RB anyway. How could the Texans qualify paying the salary to Bush that would command as the #1 pick. RB's salary's in the NFL have been in a steady decline recently due to their availability. I say pick up a PROVEN FA RB and take Young with our first pick.
Couple your article with the thought that I do not understand how the Texans are going to draft a RB, ANY RB, as the first pick, with the money that goes into the first pick and the current salary's of RB's in the NFL. Why not take Young as our first pick and take a FA RB who has proven themselves to be an every down quality RB, like James who will most likely be a FA after this year. Or any other quality RB. Reggie Bush sure didn't impress me as the next Ricky Williams/ Shaun Alexander type RB anyway. How could the Texans qualify paying the salary to Bush that would command as the #1 pick. RB's salary's in the NFL have been in a steady decline recently due to their availability. I say pick up a PROVEN FA RB and take Young with our first pick.
Hulk75 said:
LOL, then what's the point with you pro-Carr/anti-Vince people saying "running QB's can't win Super Bowls"??
This subject goes from one extreme to the next and I'm taking it to another. It's funny that when Reggie Bush was supposedly the best athlete in the draft that's who alot of people were wanting on this team even though our only bright spot on offense was the running back position. Now Vince has declared and is a threat to take over a position that has struggled for 4 years (Regardless of the reason), and people are saying we don't need him. Not to mention the fact that throughout this year, as well as last, it was stated by several that we needed to take the best offensive lineman in the draft regardless of who else is available because our O line has been horrible for too long. Now we have an opportunity to do it and we're going to take the most atheletic player available. If we keep putting off picking up linemen till the later rounds it's going to take several years before we have a decent line. I agree and disagree with so many points from all sides that right now, my biggest concern is who is going to coach this team into contention. I was a big supporter of trading for more picks but now that Casserly is staying and all signs are pointing toward the fact that we are going to use our first pick, I guess I'm a bit neutral on the subject as far as what to do with it. The funny thing is, that for every valid point you have on Reggie Bush, one could be made for Vince Young and vice versa. It seems that for every person who opposes one or the other, really underestimates the accomplishments and athletic ability of the player they are opposing. Not to mention, the O Line is put second on the priority list again and this year when our QB hasn't got time to throw and is running to make something happen, everyone is going to be saying, "See I told you we didn't do enough to shore up this offensive line!"
Well, I guess I argued myself into believing we need to do something about the offensive line before anything else. LOL
Well, I guess I argued myself into believing we need to do something about the offensive line before anything else. LOL
J-Man
Waterboy
For the record I think we should draft Bush or Trade down. I think Carr could suceed with a new staff and some help on the line. I'm not frothing over this like a lot of folks and I wouldn't have a problem if Vy is drafted. I might not agree but I'm not paid to draft guys and I'll assume they know better, just like I will assume that the new staff did the right think if they trade down or take Bush.
Here is a what if...
We draft Vince and sit him behind Carr. Carr has a pretty good year, let's say 25 td's, 10 int's, around 65% and the team goes 7-9 maybe 8-8. Do we continue to to shop him for trade or hang onto him? I refer to this as the Drew Brees Scenerio. We would have the same basic problem that they had except for one BIG fact. Our cap cannot in anyway sustain the payroll situation the way SD's did.
To me if we did in fact draft Young it tells me we need to move Carr ASAP and take the short term cap hit.
Here is a what if...
We draft Vince and sit him behind Carr. Carr has a pretty good year, let's say 25 td's, 10 int's, around 65% and the team goes 7-9 maybe 8-8. Do we continue to to shop him for trade or hang onto him? I refer to this as the Drew Brees Scenerio. We would have the same basic problem that they had except for one BIG fact. Our cap cannot in anyway sustain the payroll situation the way SD's did.
To me if we did in fact draft Young it tells me we need to move Carr ASAP and take the short term cap hit.