Vince Young: The Underdeveloped QB

[MorKnolle]

Right click on the link and select "Open in a new window". It should be cool then.

But again, it'll come down to us having differing opinions to what a long delivery is. 'Cause I guarantee nobody will ever convince me that the amount of time it takes for the ball to leave his hand will even remotely be considered an issue.

I don't think it will be that big of an issue, but someone had said he had a really fast release which he doesn't. We will disagree on this subject, and my last couple posts I was trying to point out that on this argument, or for the Bush vs. Domanick Davis or any other player comparisons you can find, obviously anyone that supports one player over another is either going to look over their favored player's weaknesses or else downgrade the importance of those deficiencies in their mind, and I was just pointing out that neither one of us were necessarily right on all our points, just that it was a difference of opinion and when those exist these kind of arguments will surface. I have seen it on several other places on the message board, especially either in the Vince Young or Reggie Bush arguments where people disagree and the opposing side is blatantly wrong and therefore stupid because they disagree on similar types of player weaknesses, and anyone supporting Bush will downgrade his durability or lack of size questions as being inconsequential while Vince supporters downgrade the importance of any of his deficiencies. Some people are stubborn enough that they refuse to accept any opposing argument at all, I am not dead-set on any one player and try to present more of an objective view on all of them, both my opinions and any more knowledgeable people that I talk to, and from there who I think would fit the team best, rather than being in love with a certain player like a few people on this board (I've seen a couple disturbing posts like that) and fighting that agenda to the death. At this point in time, no one is really proved to be wrong or right, they just have different opinions and we'll have to wait a couple years to see how things turn out, and all that the players have "proven" thus far is in their statistics in college.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

Sorry, but I hadn't seen this.


I've got to confess I'm truly in love... I can't hide it anymore....

Wait until you find the comparisons to McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, S. Young, and other dual threat QB's last season in college vs V. Youngs last season in college. It'll blow your mind. Texans Chick did the background work on that, I'll try to find it, if anybody knows where it is can you plz attach it to this qoute.

 

[MorKnolle]

Originally Posted by Joe Clark
"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. He’s a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You don’t lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."

Just an FYI, saying he's as accurate or more accurate than Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, or Vick at this stage is not saying that much, none of them are especially accurate passers to this day other than McNair. I'm not bashing Vince but this quote isn't really saying that much with that statement, those are all athletic scrambling QBs (or at least they all used to be, some still are) and had strong arms, but were never very accurate passers. I still find it amusing that people complained that David Carr would look to dump the ball off to his RBs too much but when Vince dumps it off to his RBs or TEs (remember we had no TEs until Rivers finally got a bit of a chance the last couple games) that he made the "correct reads" and all that stuff. I still don't agree with the statement about him having the arm strength to make all the downfield throws, his arm physically is pretty strong but due to his mechanics his arm strength on his throws is not anywhere near the elite group and he does tend to go with the floating ball ("touch pass" as some people call it) that will generally get knocked down or intercepted with NFL athletes on the field. Again as I've pointed out with my last several posts in this thread, that is my opinion on him, and obviously anyone that supports him (and is in love with him in a couple cases) over David Carr is going to either overlook or downplay the significance of his deficiencies like this while I'll tend to, if anything, exaggerate the importance of them a little bit because I do not see him as being the answer for this team, so that's my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it all you want because you're entitled to your opinions.

 

[thunderkyss]

Just an FYI, saying he's as accurate or more accurate than Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, or Vick at this stage is not saying that much, none of them are especially accurate passers to this day other than McNair. I'm not bashing Vince but this quote isn't really saying that much with that statement, those are all athletic scrambling QBs (or at least they all used to be, some still are) and had strong arms, but were never very accurate passers.

That's fine.... and you're right for the most part. Those guys, with the exclusion of Vick, put up some pretty wild numbers, despite their accuracy, and for the most part, with second tier Recievers. Of course, they all suffered at different times in their career, for whatever reason(I have a theory), but when they are in the game, and on their game, they make for some exciting football, win or loose.

I still find it amusing that people complained that David Carr would look to dump the ball off to his RBs too much but when Vince dumps it off to his RBs or TEs (remember we had no TEs until Rivers finally got a bit of a chance the last couple games) that he made the "correct reads" and all that stuff.

The key words are in Bold letters

I still don't agree with the statement about him having the arm strength to make all the downfield throws, his arm physically is pretty strong but due to his mechanics his arm strength on his throws is not anywhere near the elite group and he does tend to go with the floating ball ("touch pass" as some people call it) that will generally get knocked down or intercepted with NFL athletes on the field.

On this one, I kinda agree. He does have the tendancy to float the ball more than I'd like, but on short passes just as much as on the long and the out passes.... I'm not saying we should retire his number just yet, only that his mobility and ability to make plays on the run will add a dimension to his game, that would be different from Carr's, & I honestly believe in the long run, he will have the better career.

Again as I've pointed out with my last several posts in this thread, that is my opinion on him, and obviously anyone that supports him (and is in love with him in a couple cases) over David Carr is going to either overlook or downplay the significance of his deficiencies like this while I'll tend to, if anything, exaggerate the importance of them a little bit because I do not see him as being the answer for this team, so that's my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it all you want because you're entitled to your opinions.

MorKnolle....... in all honesty, I enjoy your posts... you've always got sound arguments, and you sound like you know what you are talking about. But like you said, because of some of your opinions, and mine, I can look at those same arguments, and come up with different conclusions. But I must admit, I don't know where you stand on the Reggie Situation. If your opinion is that we should trade down, save some money, and build on what we already have..... I can respect that, and do. But if you're one of those we need to take Bush(BPA) folks, I just can't understand that thinking..... Nor can I understand you thinking Drafting Vince is any less advantageous than drafting Reggie...

 

[tulexan]

Wait until you find the comparisons to McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, S. Young, and other dual threat QB's last season in college vs V. Youngs last season in college. It'll blow your mind. Texans Chick did the background work on that, I'll try to find it, if anybody knows where it is can you plz attach it to this qoute.

Culpepper, Vick, and S. Young also didn't have the talent that Vince has around him. McNabb had Marvin Harrison, but that is about it. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes year in and year out. Vick played at VT before they were the power house that they are now, McNabb played at Syracuse, Culpepper played at Central Florida, and Steve Young played at BYU. None of those teams probably had anywhere near the talent that Vince had around him (again except Marvin Harrison).

 

[MorKnolle]

Thunderkyss, as you said I can almost always respect your posts. We often disagree on opinions but you at least usually have some sound reasoning and good evidence to back up your opinions so I can respect them while disagreeing with them. I try to post things with, for the most part, an objective opinion and observation on things and then draw my conclusions from that, rather than having an agenda that I want to promote and stating my view and then a bunch of gibberish that "supports" that view as a few people on these boards do, but anyone (and they are generally in the majority of people on here) that presents a well-thought out case and has some kind of decent reasoning behind it I can respect and I feel that those kinds of posts back and forth can provide a useful dialogue between many people and are benficial to the boards, although there are people that keep making repetitive, mindless posts that clearly show they want and will only accept one view on things and anyone that disagrees must be stupid, and those kinds of people are bothersome, but they are few and far between on those type of people.

As for the Reggie/Vince issue, my preference and what I truly believe would be the best for the overall team would be to trade down if we can get a reasonable trade and make intelligent use of those extra picks and/or veteran players we get in exchange. However, if we can't get a decent trade or decide to stay at the #1 anyway, I personally think it would be better for the team to take Reggie Bush than Vince Young, and from the people I've talked to that have some sort of knowledge on it I think that's what they will do if they stay at #1. I am hoping we can get a couple good trade offers to choose from and maybe even a 2nd trade down option after that, but so many things remain to be seen on who our coaches are, what systems they are going to run, how well they think our current guys fit in their system, what free agents will be available and who we can bring in, and finally, how all the guys look at the combine and workouts. That said, I have presented my opinion as it is now, but there are 3 months left before the draft and a whole lot of uncertainties to be answered before then and I'm always open to changing my opinions if I see good reason to, and for now I plan to enjoy the remaining two weeks of the NFL playoffs and watch some good football, then watch Mathis win the fastest man race at the Pro Bowl.

 

[thunderkyss]

I try to post things with, for the most part, an objective opinion and observation on things and then draw my conclusions from that, rather than having an agenda that I want to promote and stating my view and then a bunch of gibberish that "supports" that view as a few people on these boards do....

Well I'll admit, I've got an agenda. I think the Texans were looking to draft Reggie to appease the public. I didn't believe it, till I heard Casserly say something to that effect recently on TV. I flipped. I started preaching the trade down gospel. Of course that changed when Vince declared for this years draft. I still think the Texans should trade down, and you won't see me argue that point. But anytime I can put my two cents in for Vince over Bush, I'm there.

As for the Reggie/Vince issue, my preference and what I truly believe would be the best for the overall team would be to trade down if we can get a reasonable trade and make intelligent use of those extra picks and/or veteran players we get in exchange. However, if we can't get a decent trade or decide to stay at the #1 anyway, I personally think it would be better for the team to take Reggie Bush than Vince Young, and from the people I've talked to that have some sort of knowledge on it I think that's what they will do if they stay at #1. I am hoping we can get a couple good trade offers to choose from and maybe even a 2nd trade down option after that, but so many things remain to be seen on who our coaches are, what systems they are going to run, how well they think our current guys fit in their system, what free agents will be available and who we can bring in, and finally, how all the guys look at the combine and workouts. That said, I have presented my opinion as it is now, but there are 3 months left before the draft and a whole lot of uncertainties to be answered before then and I'm always open to changing my opinions if I see good reason to, and for now I plan to enjoy the remaining two weeks of the NFL playoffs and watch some good football, then watch Mathis win the fastest man race at the Pro Bowl.

Okay, for the most part we are on the same page....... but why?? Why would it be better for the team to take Bush?? That's what I just can't see.. I'm going through old posts as well as trying to stay current, but I have yet to see anything that looks like a good argument for taking Bush over Vince. I'm not knocking Bush.... not at all. But I like our RB situation much more than I like our QB situation.

 

[MorKnolle]

Well I'll admit, I've got an agenda. I think the Texans were looking to draft Reggie to appease the public. I didn't believe it, till I heard Casserly say something to that effect recently on TV. I flipped. I started preaching the trade down gospel. Of course that changed when Vince declared for this years draft. I still think the Texans should trade down, and you won't see me argue that point. But anytime I can put my two cents in for Vince over Bush, I'm there.

Okay, for the most part we are on the same page....... but why?? Why would it be better for the team to take Bush?? That's what I just can't see.. I'm going through old posts as well as trying to stay current, but I have yet to see anything that looks like a good argument for taking Bush over Vince. I'm not knocking Bush.... not at all. But I like our RB situation much more than I like our QB situation.

I'll pull this from a thread I just posted it on:

My opinion and preference at this moment would be Leinart over Young, but as you said those are our opinions. We do not need to start this team from scratch. Yes we had the worst record in the league this year, but we had a bad coaching staff that is now gone and we have several good people on the roster to continue building around. I think David is among those good players and I do not see a reason to replace him, especially with a 2 year project like Vince Young. Obviously you think Carr needs to be replaced but I do not. I also like Domanick Davis, that's why I think our offense is pretty solid with the exception of the OL and would prefer to see us trade down, but at the same time adding Bush into the talent we have and bringing in another playmaker that can play some RB and a lot of WR would be beneficial to our offense and add something to it in my opinion. Drafting Vince and sitting him on the bench for a couple years while he develops and then replacing Carr with him n my opinion does not add anything to the offense and therefore would not be an efficient use of the #1 pick. Drafting Vince will take 2 years to decide if he was worth it and to see if he really does add anything by replacing Carr (which I don't see him adding much if anything), while drafting Bush immediately adds another playmaker that can play some RB and some WR and be on the field almost every snap, so I can at least see how he adds something to the team that we don't currently have, and he adds it immediately rather than waiting a couple years to see if he can actually step in and bring something to the table. That's my view, my opinion on the situation and that's why I think we should draft Bush if we're not going to trade down.

That's how I see the situation and why I think Bush would be a better pick than Vince, again that's my opinion. If I may ask, why is it you think Vince would be a better option than Bush assuming we do stay at #1?

 

[thunderkyss]

I'll pull this from a thread I just posted it on:


That's how I see the situation and why I think Bush would be a better pick than Vince, again that's my opinion. If I may ask, why is it you think Vince would be a better option than Bush assuming we do stay at #1?

I answered in that other thread.

 

[swtbound07]

Culpepper, Vick, and S. Young also didn't have the talent that Vince has around him. McNabb had Marvin Harrison, but that is about it. Texas has one of the best recruiting classes year in and year out. Vick played at VT before they were the power house that they are now, McNabb played at Syracuse, Culpepper played at Central Florida, and Steve Young played at BYU. None of those teams probably had anywhere near the talent that Vince had around him (again except Marvin Harrison).

Seriously? Vince Young was surrounded by offensive talent? Really? Ramonce Taylor....not exactly a 5 star lock prospect. If you want to talk surrounded by talent, talk matt leinart....bush, lendale white, mike williams, steve smith....geez, he was the one bathing in 1st round draft picks

 

[AstroTexan]

Seriously? Vince Young was surrounded by offensive talent? Really? Ramonce Taylor....not exactly a 5 star lock prospect. If you want to talk surrounded by talent, talk matt leinart....bush, lendale white, mike williams, steve smith....geez, he was the one bathing in 1st round draft picks

While you or many other people for that matter may not think he was surrounded by offensive talent, his offensive line is as good as the Texans was this year. If there is a package deal there, there is no way to pass on it.

 

[swtbound07]

While you or many other people for that matter may not think he was surrounded by offensive talent, his offensive line is as good as the Texans was this year. If there is a package deal there, there is no way to pass on it.

offensive line good, i will buy. Offensive skill position talent i wont.

 

[Honoring Earl 34]

You can't take anything away from Vince Young he played a big game on a huge stage and nailed it . Saying he had a great team is pointing out the obvious , thats why they were playing for the championship .