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Vikings disinterest in Carr

dirty steve

dirty steve

Veteran
cross Minneapolis off of DC's landing places:

from the St. Paul Pioneer Press:

Based on a morning appearance on KFAN, Vikings coach Brad Childress would seem to have little interest in trading for Houston Texans quarterback David Carr.

"David Carr is a tremendous person," Childress said. "I always struggled with where his release came from. It's kind of a drop-down, three-quarter release. ... He can make some of the throws; he can't make all the throws."
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http://vikingsnow.blogspot.com/
 
I didn't expect them to take David Carr. I would imagine that they're pretty happy with Tarvaris Jackson.

By the way, who is that in your avatar?
 
hadaad said:
I didn't expect them to take David Carr. I would imagine that they're pretty happy with Tarvaris Jackson.

By the way, who is that in your avatar?
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if you are talking about mine, then it is Amobi Okoye. i'd to pick up him or Levi Brown.
 
Vinny said:
I've stated for a while that Carr has a funky hitch and doesn't have a good intermediate or long ball...but the forum called me crazy and a hater. I guess I'm not so bonkers now.


....well, maybe I am and this has nothing to do with it. :joker:
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vinny... is that glee you write with? i haven't ever seen you as happy as you've been this past day or two.
 
Vinny said:
I've stated for a while that Carr has a funky hitch and doesn't have a good intermediate or long ball...but the forum called me crazy and a hater. I guess I'm not so bonkers now.


....well, maybe I am and this has nothing to do with it. :joker:
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Crazy, bonkers hater. Just like Brad Childress. That guy's been a Carr Hater from day one!



Thanks, DSteve. I wouldn't mind Okoye. His name makes me happy, even if he weren't as good as he likely is.
 
Vinny said:
I haven't been this happy about the direction of this offense for years. I think that we have a young line, a franchise WR, a solid proven NFL back, a QB that has been groomed in the NFL for the last three years, a promising young TE, and the Emperor's New Clothing era is officially over to boot.

:elmo:
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such optimism.
 
Vinny said:
I haven't been this happy about the direction of this offense for years. I think that we have a young line, a franchise WR, a solid proven NFL back, a QB that has been groomed in the NFL for the last three years, a promising young TE, and the Emperor's New Clothing era is officially over to boot.

:elmo:
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Check out Vinny using the dancin' Elmo smiley...should we be scared?
 
hadaad said:
Crazy, bonkers hater. Just like Brad Childress. That guy's been a Carr Hater from day one!
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Well, I have to admit that he's been right about Carr from day one, so I give him his props.

Fiddy said:
I am...but I'm just as happy as Vinny is.
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I'm kinda stoked about it, myself. I think Schaub will flourish with Kubes and Sherman. And I'm so glad Plummer retired, or this deal probably wouldn't have gone down.
 
Vinny said:
I've stated for a while that Carr has a funky hitch and doesn't have a good intermediate or long ball...but the forum called me crazy and a hater. I guess I'm not so bonkers now.


....well, maybe I am and this has nothing to do with it. :joker:
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vinny, both of us have been saying the same thing for going on 3 years...i have had problems with Carr's fundamentals since Day One.

it took someone outside 'the loop' to finally call a spade a spade. remember casserley allaying all our fears on his horrible release point. they were going to change it then there was the whole dad at practice drama and all that junk.

thank god we arent in Romper Room anymore...Schaub delivers the ball overhead and actually reminds me of Peyton as far as releases go.
 
Vinny said:
I've stated for a while that Carr has a funky hitch and doesn't have a good intermediate or long ball...but the forum called me crazy and a hater. I guess I'm not so bonkers now.


....well, maybe I am and this has nothing to do with it. :joker:
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See, still hating like crazy. Be quiet you crazy hater.



;)
 
Spled said:
I remember the side-arm delivery being discussed when they drafted Carr.
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Remember the ladders? Remember how they just disappeared the next year in training camp like everything was fixed and working fine? I always thought that was weird. Chris Palmer (who also had something of a reputation of being a QB guru before his stint as our offensive coordinator) went through all the trouble of these photo-op practices and talked about correcting his mechanics. Then the very next year none of that was happening and David was back to throwing like he'd always thrown.

Did Palmer just give up on trying to fix that through coaching? In retrospect was that an early sign that we had a QB who either wasn't going to or wasn't able to change what he was doing wrong?
 
I think they eventually decided to just let Carr do what worked for him, mechanics be damned. It works for VY.

(P.S. I know it never worked very well for David, which makes me think he didn't adapt to the new throwing mechanics very well.)
 
I'll dissent from Brad Childress.

I've seen this argument too many times and too many times proven to be false. Unorthadox throwing motions don't equate into inability to make a wide range of throws. From Stabler to Kosar to currently Rivers and Young, there have been guys making passes work where dozens of traditional arms have failed.

Besides that... his offense was terrible. The worst one fielded in Minnesota in over 20 years ( since 1984 and that's with Birk, Hutchinson, McKinnie ).
 
well even if this is true that still leaves oakland (probably the favorite for carr) and miami...i think miami probably offers the best chance for carr to succeed...plus who could turn down living in miami for a few years?...but oakland is probably where carr wants to go
 
Vinny said:
have you ever tried to throw a deep ball sidearm or semi side arm? Try it sometime and come back and tell me how much harder it is than to throw it from your ear, over the top. Heck, just sit at your desk and put your arm thru the motions. It's awkward at best.
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yeah but throwing motion isn't everything...you'd probably have a hard time convencing many that vince young will not be a good QB because of his side-arm release...being a good QB is more than just the tangibles and the mechanics...it's leading a team...we'll have to see if our boy schaub can do that full-time...right now i'm all for him though...if he needs a good caddie just call me up :yahoo:
 
Vinny said:
have you ever tried to throw a deep ball sidearm or semi side arm? Try it sometime and come back and tell me how much harder it is than to throw it from your ear, over the top. Heck, just sit at your desk and put your arm thru the motions. It's awkward at best.
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Actually Vinny, I always had more power sidearm, but better accuracy with an overhand release. I've always been pretty accurate, and have had a fairly strong arm, but there isn't much call for a QB that barely stands 5'-10", and on a good day runs a 5 flat forty.
 
The only release I care about with Carr is the one he will be getting from the Texans very soon. :yahoo:


I don't see any way someone is going to take his contract when the guy is backup material in this league. I said it earlier today, and I stand by it. He will be released, not traded. There is no market for this guy at the current contract price, and there are going to be a lot of disillusioned fans who think he is garbage here, but everyone else loves him. Simply not true, and totally illogical.
 
Vinny said:
maybe with a baseball...but with a football? Side arming a football over a long distance isn't easy unless you hitch up your left shoulder and contort your body...its a huge tell, and it's just not near as easy as flicking a ball from your ear hole. All the guys listed above are more overhand or have a variation of their side arm that is more over the top for their deeper balls. Carr throws a miserable deep ball compared to all of them.
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Yes, with a football, but not a true sidearm...more of a 3/4. With a baseball, I threw overhand better from the outfield. It was just a more natural motion when doing the crow-hop and throwing home from the outfield. I never was much of a pitcher, but I had more snap on the ball while throwing from the mound if I threw sidearm or sub-marined it.
 
Vinny said:
You can snap a baseball sidearm with great velocity using body torque...you can't do that with a football and get good air plus velocity on a long pass....hurts my shoulder to try it.
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I think I know what my body can do.
 
Vinny said:
Heck, just sit at your desk and put your arm thru the motions. It's awkward at best.
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Oh the subliminal, unconscious thoughts that creep into one's posts... are we as Texans fans trained to think that a QB should be throwing while in the seated position all the time?
 
Vinny said:
have you ever tried to throw a deep ball sidearm or semi side arm? Try it sometime and come back and tell me how much harder it is than to throw it from your ear, over the top. Heck, just sit at your desk and put your arm thru the motions. It's awkward at best.
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yeah, but that's me.

I have seen Kosar and Young nail those deep outs with accuracy and velocity. I bet I have seen Stabler do it too, I just don't remember or recall one right off of the top of my head. Let me look for one.
http://www.superbowl.com/video
there's at least two in that SB XI clip

I just got through watching a few clips of Rivers ( just college ). While it looked like most of the deeper balls where not of his signature sidearm, I did see him nail a few mid range outs with the sidearm delivery. A bit like Stabler.

Really there are a bunch of schools of thought in QB mechanics. Some coaches like the body throwers over the arm throwers.

just grabbing some stuff off of the web
jags.com
John from Napa, CA: Does it look to you like Eli Manning is a duck-and-cover thrower? Many times I've seen him throw off his back foot and immediately spin around to turn his back to the pass-rush.
Vic: I saw it in the Denver game earlier in the season. I immediately thought to myself, “you got a big problem with your quarterback, Tom.” Chuck-and-duck is ugly. Everybody knows what it means. Bad mechanics? A lot of quarterbacks have been successful with bad releases and throwing motions. Sonny Jurgensen, Bernie Kosar and Ken Stabler threw sidearm. Vince Young is the hottest prospect in football and I’ve never seen a worse throwing motion. I’ve only known one quarterback, however, who made chuck-and-duck work; Brett Favre.
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I forgot about Jurgensen. Baugh and Theisman threw with a bit side arm too.

that's too many succesful QBs with a sidearm throw over a too long of a period for me to say it is a big problem in a passing game.
 
Vinny said:
If you are trying this at home, please go outside, and by all means, stand up. I forgot that we live in a society that needs warning stickers on their coffee telling them that it is hot.
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Thanks for the PSA. Carr seemed to think that he needed to be seated to throw most the time.
 
Vinny said:
Ok, I guess your shoulder has some amazing abilities that mine doesn't possess. You rock on.
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I guess so, and since you were a power lifter, you have trained your body to use different muscles. When you do something for a long time, your body gets used to it, and the muscles that are used for that activity are built up. Just because I can do something different than you is know reason for you to be condescending. Just because I can't do the splits doesn't mean that it can't be done. Get over yourself.
 
swtbound07 said:
Hey look! The Carr Lovers are rewriting the laws of physics.....what WONT they do for the guy.
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I don't think I am trying to re-write laws here.

I am saying that the mechanics aren't necessarily the problem with poor range or strength. It can be other things. Nor am I saying that Carr has a good midrange throw. I am saying the mechanics don't condem a QB to a poor passing game.
 
Vinny said:
good lord...Show me where I say that you CAN'T make it as an NFL QB if you don't have a perfect release. I just made a statement that is is much harder to have a good deep ball when you drop down...and Carr struggles with deep and intermediate passes. I think that much is a fact, regardless of how much you Carr fan boys want to deny it. Perhaps he will have to be released one day for you guys to figure out that he can only throw short passes well.
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Well... I was actually kicking into this thread off of what Childress said, not what you said. Childress didn't think he could make all of the throws.

which I think is true, but that doesn't mean it has anything to do with the sidearm delivery or the mechanics of Carr's delivery. Meaning Carr could be throwing like Bradshaw and still have a poor midrange pass.
 
Vinny said:
good lord...Show me where I say that you CAN'T make it as an NFL QB if you don't have a perfect release. I just made a statement that is is much harder to have a good deep ball when you drop down...and Carr struggles with deep and intermediate passes. I think that much is a fact, regardless of how much you Carr fan boys want to deny it. Perhaps he will have to be released one day for you guys to figure out that he can only throw short passes well.
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That's ripe...Vinny you were bashing me in the first year when I tried to point out Carr's obvious problems. When you finally realized it for yourself, you tried to act like you had always thought like that. I have said since the very first year that Carr had so much potential, but until he learns to do the things that good QB's do, he will never be successful. As for Carr not being able to throw a good deep ball with his sidearm motion, you seem to forget the throw Carr made to Jermaine Lewis in the very first game against the Cowboys. Lewis dropped the ball, but Carr threw it on a rope for 60 yards, and he threw it with his sidearm motion. It wasn't until they tried to make him put more air under the ball that he lost his command of the deep ball. If you will remember, Carr always threw the ball too hard, and his WR's couldn't hold onto it.
 
I'm the #1 carr hater on this board and yesterday was the greatest day this board has ever witnessed. I feel I did my part in running this bum out of town. I always knew he was garbage and I have been proven correct.

:dance2:
 
Vinny said:
I call HUGE BS on this one. I've questioned Carr since 2003...and everyone called me a knee jerk then,.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2319

I posted this thread 4 years ago.
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yeah Vinny, I remember reading that, I thought about calling you a hypocrite then. Too bad we can't pull up posts from this board from 2002. By the time you posted that thread, I had already been saying those things for a year. I had already gotten to the point by that time that I decided that I wouldn't even say anything to you.
 
Vinny said:
lol, That wasn't my first post questioning Carr, just the one that got the most attention and fed into most of our fan base calling me crazy and a hater. I can give you more examples but you can look them up yourself. There are not too many posts where I say I'm loving Carrs game back in 02.
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I know that wasn't your first time questioning Carr. As a matter of fact, I had said something about Carr on this board about midway though the first season, and gotten bashed by you, only to find you write basically the same thing on hpf the next week.

like I said way back then...you aren't worth it...I'm done.
 
Now you're a dumb, crazy, hypocrite hater. See how you are man.

I've changed positions on a lot of things over time and probably forgot to give credit to the "pioneers" in the field of Carr-hating when I changed my position too.

Anyone worrying that much about who spotted the problem with David Carr needs to let go of some of that inner rage (in a healthy way of course). If I'd decided to not say anything about someone years ago I'd be damned if I'd then throw it out there along with the (implied) admission that it had been bothering me for almost half a decade.
 
Vinny said:
it is a good reminder that as the players prove or disprove their worth ALL of our views change as the players either tap their potential, underachieve or become superstars. I'm sure Tom Brady didn't have as many fans when he was a 5th round pick as he does now and I'm sure that Ryan Leaf's fan base dwindled fairly rapidly as he proved he couldn't hack it in the NFL.
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I have to admit. I turned on Carr during the 2nd half of the year last year. I didn't hate him though. (still don't) I just felt he regressed into the Carr of old and needed to go.

However, I felt that if the Texans could not upgrade the position, they needed to keep him.

They upgraded it today. So...
 
Phil Simms is the real genius

http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/GB/5249261

What do I see wrong with Carr? I don't know if I see anything wrong. They talk about his sidearm delivery, but there are plenty of sidearm delivery guys in the NFL. More than anything, he does that because that's his way of getting rid of the football quickly.

I remember watching Carr play against Boise State last season. There were defenders in his face and he came directly over the top and threw the ball as hard as he could. And I thought to myself, "There's the best player in college football." I don't care that it was against Boise State, and I don't care that they lost the game. On the one play, he showed the physical ability, and the ability to change his delivery when he has to.

What is David Carr's greatest physical asset? A very good arm. With Harrington, you get a quarterback with a lot of intangibles, a player who truly is a good leader. He has good size for an NFL quarterback and he has a good arm -- but it's not at the same level as Carr's.

Some people say you can overrate the arm. Maybe you can, but I don't think so. The bigger and better the arm, the more chances you'll have to create and make plays just with the throw.

Sometimes Brett Favre just sticks it in there. Strong-armed quarterbacks will throw the ball into places that most quarterbacks don't. They look at it and see it differently, because they know they can get the football in there.

As Jon Gruden points out, big strong-armed quarterbacks will throw interceptions, because they'll take more chances. Quarterbacks without that strong arm might be more conservative, and not make as many errors. But they're not going to make as many big plays, either.

If you're looking for the fastest guy in the world, what do you look for at the track? You look for a fast guy, right? You don't tell me about his intangibles. Well, when you look for a great quarterback, in my opinion, the number one thing you look for is the arm. We can go from there.

Yes, there are a lot more things involved when talking about the quarterback. But first we look at the arm, then break it down from there. We look at size, mobility, leadership, smarts. It doesn't matter what order you put those traits in. But to me the first thing you judge is the arm.

People see the Carr-Harrington debate differently. To me, there is no debate. Will I be wrong? No, I won't be wrong! I don't care what it looks like five years from now. I'm judging it from what I see right now and that's what I see.
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Vinny said:
heck, I say a ton of dumb things on messge boards though.
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Bob McNair comes clean about his mistakes at the press conference and now we have you throwing this on the table?!?!

What's next canine/feline cohabitation???

These message boards are based on a few solid principles Vinny, and your admission of fallibility might precipitate the erosion of the bedrock...

Before you ask, I have no earthly idea what the other principles might be...

One other thing. I read a good bit of the thread you linked to, and you said yourself you weren't calling Carr a bust... man, you were wrong! You've got some 2003 egg on your face.

This entire post has been an exercise in irrelevance... my apologies.

Carry On.
 
Pantherstang84 said:
I have to admit. I turned on Carr during the 2nd half of the year last year. I didn't hate him though. (still don't) I just felt he regressed into the Carr of old and needed to go.
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You and I have this in common. It must have been somewhere in the fourth quarter of the first Titan game, which we should have won, but thanks to almost entirely to DC, did not.
I made a few posts the next day that I'm still not proud of... it was kind of painful realizing how wrong I had been about Carr the whole time...
 
keyfro said:
yeah but throwing motion isn't everything...you'd probably have a hard time convencing many that vince young will not be a good QB because of his side-arm release...being a good QB is more than just the tangibles and the mechanics...it's leading a team...we'll have to see if our boy schaub can do that full-time...right now i'm all for him though...if he needs a good caddie just call me up :yahoo:[/QUOT

...maybe the feet have something to do with it...Kubes talked about how important foot work is, especially setting them and throwing off the correct one when releasing. Carr's foot work, along with his throwing motion was a 'negative' against him coming out of college. From what I remember, Vince 'sets up' well in the pocket and throws very well on the run and is very coachable...whereas Carr was set in his ways and didn't adapt to changes very well.
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All these QBs that have been mentioned with side arm delivery were able to do something Carr has not, especially on a consistent basis-like Vinny said, complete intermediate and long range passes.

By Carr's 5th year, we had virtually no verticle passing game. JMO, but Carr's passing style was not conducive to the WCO. This offense requires throwing on the run with short and intermediate throws and effective decision making-side arm deliveries or not, Carr didn't get the job done.
 
to round up this sidearm delivery does not equal limited downfield range or throws ( outside of the fact that most sidearm guys change it up a little to throw downfield )

from Huge ( the Cowboy of all people !?!? )

http://forums.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=247380&postcount=6

Joe Clark ( Majkowski's QB tutor and I believe )

"Vince is a tremendous athlete and a great competitor. He surprised me on just how accurate he is throwing the ball over the middle. To be honest he is a more accurate passer than Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair, Donovan McNabb or Mike Vick were when they came out of college and those are the quarterbacks most people compare him to. He’s a very smart football player also. You saw that he made the hot reads when they tried to blitz him, and he dumped the ball off correctly to the back or the tight end. Vince is a very strong guy and he has the arm strength to make all the throws downfield. (USC coach) Pete Carroll threw every defense in the world at him, and he made good on almost every throw. You could clearly see that he grew in stature as a passer all season long. You don’t lead the NCAA in passing efficiency by not being a good passer and having good touch. The thing that jumps out at you is that he is not rifling the ball like a bullet on the shorter throws, but instead he is putting good touch and a tight spiral on those throws. When he needs to put some real steam on the ball he can do that also."
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from the same Joe Clark source article

"Everyone has some faults to their game," Clark said. "Every college and NFL player does, and the two things that Young will need work on is taking snaps from under center and putting a better arch on his mortar-type throws. It takes three times as long to get in the proper place for throws under center than in the shotgun. That means you have an extra second or a second and a half to read and adjust to coverages in the shotgun than under center. It’s not a huge thing, but it is something he will need to get accustomed to and get perfected. Young has a bit of a hitch in his delivery, but he is so strong and that ball comes out like a whip so I wouldn’t mess with the delivery. He is very flexible in the wrists and that increases the velocity of his throws. Now on the mortar passes, he throws the ball flat and it doesn’t come out nose-down on the deeper throws. He throws a nice rifle pass, but he will need some work on the arch-type throws and getting a better trajectory on those type throws to make it easier on the receiver to catch. He will need to show a little more patience in the pocket and not take off running as much in the NFL. It’s a brutal league on quarterbacks and if you look at the four running-style quarterbacks out of the pocket, Mike Vick, Daunte Culpepper, Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb, three of those guys are recovering from recent surgeries."
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might as well pimp my BYU QB prospect for the year too

John Beck - sidearm QB
"He has a tremendous amount of zip on his balls and if anybody wants to question that, just talk to the BYU receivers, he’s jammed several of their fingers over the years. He fires a hissing spiral nearly every time the ball is released from his wrist. He recorded the 2nd highest velocity of any quarterback at the 2007 combine, whistling the pigskin at 61.1 miles per hour."
http://www.craveonline.com/sports/articles/04647590/brigham_youngs_john_beck.html
( the write up is not the most objective source, but you can still compare the objective notes in it with other reports. Sidearm throwers tend to have more pure arm strength then a body thrower. You can see it from the 75 yard toss while on his knees. )

WCO QB that will most likely get picked up by Childress
 
Pantherstang84 said:
I have to admit. I turned on Carr during the 2nd half of the year last year. I didn't hate him though. (still don't) I just felt he regressed into the Carr of old and needed to go.

However, I felt that if the Texans could not upgrade the position, they needed to keep him.

They upgraded it today. So...
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DING, I will second that. (insomnia sucks)
 
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