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Travis Johnson v. Derrick Johnson

:idea: Just an idea. Im not a huge fan of the 3-4 at least not ours. So next years draft we trade up if we need to and pick a LT. Hopfully Dbrickshaw Ferguson or Eric Winston. Next we trade back into the first round and pick AJ Hawk. I dont know if Peek or Babin can play DE but its worth a try.
Our dline would be somthing like - Peek - Walker - TJ - Babin
Linbackers - AJ Hawk - Wong - Greenwood
Secondary would be the same
 
WildBlackBear32 said:
Williams. Williams. Rogers. Jones. Pollard. Johnson.

Don't EVEN go there.
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Bubbajwp said:
Four words for you
ROY WILLIAMS MIKE WILLIAMS CHARLES ROGERS POLLARE
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So you're saying they should've drafted a WR instead of either Derrick or Travis Johnson?

Man, some people can't ever be pleased.
 
Huge said:
So you're saying they should've drafted a WR instead of either Derrick or Travis Johnson?

Man, some people can't ever be pleased.
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Im not saying that at all i like TJ alot and always did. Im just saying that he has a better oline and more weapons
 
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.
 
Huge said:
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.
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If Peek and Babin end up being half the player Johnson is it will be a surprise.

It's only one game, but it's obvious the guy was born a play maker. Isn't that one of the keys to having a successful 3-4?
 
Huge said:
I think the bigger problem is that you're judging a couple of draft picks off the first games of their careers. If guys like Peek and Babin turn into playmakers because guys like Johnson are clogging the middle, then he was worth the pick.

But of course everybody loves to post off emotion (or they just don't know any better) and come across looking pretty dumb in doing so.

And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.
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And what if guys like Peek and Babin never go anywhere? Jeff Posey led this team in sacks our first season and he bailed after that season. You might have noticed him seperating Carr's shoulder in 2003 when we played in Buffalo or chasing Carr out of bounds today. Since he left nobody's even come close to matching his sack number in that first season. Steve Foley also bolted out of here in the blink of an eye and had himself quite a year in San Diego last season. Why do these guys, who can clearly play in our system and play well take off at the first opportunity? What do they know that you and I don't?

Personally I am beginning to question everything that I've been told about how this team is put together. I find it somewhat shocking that for a guy who's made his name on the 3-4 and rushing the quarterback, Dom Capers doesn't even seem to recognize the kind of LB he needs when one stands right in front of his face.
 
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?
 
Hervoyel said:
And what if guys like Peek and Babin never go anywhere? Jeff Posey led this team in sacks our first season and he bailed after that season. You might have noticed him seperating Carr's shoulder in 2003 when we played in Buffalo or chasing Carr out of bounds today. Since he left nobody's even come close to matching his sack number in that first season. Steve Foley also bolted out of here in the blink of an eye and had himself quite a year in San Diego last season. Why do these guys, who can clearly play in our system and play well take off at the first opportunity? What do they know that you and I don't?

Personally I am beginning to question everything that I've been told about how this team is put together. I find it somewhat shocking that for a guy who's made his name on the 3-4 and rushing the quarterback, Dom Capers doesn't even seem to recognize the kind of LB he needs when one stands right in front of his face.
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If they never go anywhere then they were bad selections. Every team has those. One game doesn't make a career. Derrick Johnson could go on to be a bust despite his performance today. Unlikely but certainly a possibility.

But I agree with you. I am not sold on your organization and never was. Casserly has been known to look like a complete ***** during the draft but you couldn't tell that to anybody here 4 years ago because all they saw were the 3 Super Bowl rings he was wearing.

Capers is no different. The guy had 1 winning season in four while coaching Carolina before he was fired.

But to say passing on Derrick Johnson was a mistake based off the first game of his career is being a tad bit shortsighted (understatement).
 
Huge said:
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?
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Not big enough to play on the outside??? He's just as big (6'4 - 250) as Peek and Babin.

Doesn't have the game to play inside??? He's got to be better than Greenwood. That guy has been a ghost since he got here.
 
Huge said:
I think the 3-4 makes the players instead of the other way around. There are a ton of LBs that excel in the 3-4 around the league that weren't drafted anywhere close to the 1st round.

There's a really big difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 LBer. If the Texans had drafted Derrick Johnson, where would you have lined him up?

He's not big enough to play on the outside and he doesn't have the game to play inside.

So what would you have done with him?
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So is it his 6'4" height that's a problem? Babin's 6'3" and Peek is 6'2". Is it the 242 lbs that he's listed at? The NFL lists Babin at 259 and Peek at 238. Now I understand Peek has put on some weight and the Texans have him at 250 even.

So for 8 pounds he's not big enough to play outside in the 3-4? Not even worth trying at the position. You don't think he might be able to hold another 8 pounds on that frame maybe?

I don't buy any of this. Obscure and arcane football knowledge is one thing and often Cass & Co. can just tell me to accept something at face value and I'm left with no alternative but to do so. Telling me 8 pounds makes a difference between being able to start for you and not being worth drafting is utter bull, and not the "Go Toro!" kind.
 
there is no point in even talking about this. It is over it, it is done. All we can do is pray TJ turns into a super star.
 
LBC_Justin said:
there is no point in even talking about this. It is over it, it is done. All we can do is pray TJ turns into a super star.
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Okay... sorry. No point bringing up the mistakes this organization has made.

All we can do is pray. Good point.
 
I'm not basing it on one game. This game hadn't been played when I started complaining about it on the day they didn't draft DJ. At the time all I got back in reply was "UT HOMERS CAN'T SEE PAST DJ!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!" and junk like that.

I don't even like UT! I just saw a bad linebacker who the Texans could definitely use. They could still use him.

But it's too late and Wonger is right. No talking bad about the mistakes of the past.
 
My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.
 
Huge said:
And don't get me started on how Derrick Johnson doesn't fit in the 3-4 alignment. If he did, Dallas would've taken him long before Houston had a shot.
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Doubtful, espically with Ware still on the board. For Dallas Ware fit the bigger need, a playmaking OLB for their 3-4. It would have been intersting to see what would have happened if both Ware and Merriman were gone by the time the Cowboys picked.
 
Hoth-Boy said:
Doubtful, espically with Ware still on the board. For Dallas Ware fit the bigger need, a playmaking OLB for their 3-4. It would have been intersting to see what would have happened if both Ware and Merriman were gone by the time the Cowboys picked.
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Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.
 
But why play him at OLB? Espically when we (the Texans fans) were told that we need guys at ILB that could make plays from sideline to sideline. Now if that wasn't DJ iat UT I don't know what is.

I think thats been the point trying to be made, by myslef and others.
 
Huge said:
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.
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He is faster then Greenwood and is bigger than greenwood.... how does that not translate to a better inside linebacker.

Casserly said we were getting younger and faster, how the hell does DJ not fit that description?
 
Huge said:
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.
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Isn't that exactly what they got Greenwood for? Except I have to think DJ will be a much better player.
 
ComstockLode said:
He is faster then Greenwood and is bigger than greenwood.... how does that not translate to a better inside linebacker.

Casserly said we were getting younger and faster, how the hell does DJ not fit that description?
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Exactly! Exactly!

Inside, outside, how in the world do you justify passing up this guy after the kind of changes you made this off-season to your linebacking corps?

It just flat out defies explanation.
 
Hervoyel said:
Exactly! Exactly!

Inside, outside, how in the world do you justify passing up this guy after the kind of changes you made this off-season to your linebacking corps?

It just flat out defies explanation.
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Another wonderful thing to notice:

With Greg Robinson last year the scheme was for the defensive linemen to take up blocks, and for DJ to run wherever he wanted. He didnt have gap responsibilities....

Is that not similiar to what an inside linebacker in a 3-4 is supposed to do?
 
On another note, go ask teh Jets if they think Vilma isn't he right size to play MLB, casue that was the big knock against him as well.
 
the wonger need food said:
Put the guy at Strong Safety for all we care. We just need a play maker on defense. Someone with a nose for the football that can change games.
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Funny you say that, McCree had a huge hit today...
 
DomDavis said:
You're comparing tackles and sacks from a LB to a DT in a 3-4 scheme? That's beyond insane.

TJ isn't supposed to get a lot of sacks or tackles. He's supposed to tie up blockers so that the linebackers can make plays. Take a look at Ted Washington's tackles and sacks statistics per season and tell me that he's not a good player.
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I guess that is why Bryant Young got 3 sacks as a DE in the 3-4 with San Francisco
 
Huge said:
Which was exactly my point. Derrick Johnson doesn't fit the playmaking OLB in the 3-4. And with his style of play (running around using his athleticism) he doesn't fit the ILB in the 3-4 either.
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And so where do we get 3-4 linebackers from, only colleges that use 3-4 systems? Saying DJ doesn't fit the 3-4 is like saying TJ doesn't fit the 3-4 either, both came from 4-3 systems. If a LB isn't running around (See Wong, Sharper, Foreman, Babin, Peek, etc) then I guess he just rushes the passer?? Please you are way off on this one.
 
SESupergenius said:
And so where do we get 3-4 linebackers from, only colleges that use 3-4 systems? Saying DJ doesn't fit the 3-4 is like saying TJ doesn't fit the 3-4 either, both came from 4-3 systems. If a LB isn't running around (See Wong, Sharper, Foreman, Babin, Peek, etc) then I guess he just rushes the passer?? Please you are way off on this one.
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Yes, just a lame attempt to justify ANOTHER horrible personnel decision. They're adding up quickly.
 
SESupergenius said:
The Texans will be not be living this one down. It was a perfect fit, a local sensation that was very marketable in this region, especially when we were letting go a LB and had an immediate opening.
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couldn't have said it better myself-
 
DJ has a much better supporting cast around him than AJ, plus being a LB has more mobility. Blitz packages(something the Texans don't seem to have), a defense that is making things happen.

Bobby 119C :brickwall
 
the wonger need food said:
T. Johnson - 1 Tackle
D. Johnson - 7 Tackles, 1 Assist (and broke up several passes)

Too bad the guy doesn't fit our system...
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you forgot he also recovered a fumble and a TD was called back because a Raider was holding him on a long Jordan run, thats the difference in the game :)
 
texan279 said:
You cannot compare stats between a LB and a defensive lineman...
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I dont know why you fight them so much. They want stats. They want highlights. They dont want a hard nose player who clogs up the middle, so others can make plays.

Compairing a OLB, to a DE in tackles, is like compairing a TE to a WR, in yardage gained. You just dont understand. And thats ok with me.
 
the wonger need food said:
We're talking about drafting a playmaker really. He is already better than any of the Texans linebackers.
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He's only better than all of our Lbs because we have a ****** DLine. There both not mutually exclusive.
 
Yes, DJ does have a much better supporting cast around him than TJ (I assume you meant TJ and not AJ on that touttail). The thing is in order to get a better supporting you have to start somewhere. The first good guy anywhere has a lousy supporting cast.

Come to think of it wasn't Kansas City the team that had no defense? How could KC have a better supporting cast than TJ when KC's crummy defense is legendary?
 
the wonger need food said:
Here's how they compare after week 1....

DJ - 8 tackles, 1 assist, 1 sack, 1 fumble recovered.

TJ - 2 tackles.

Derrick Johnson would not have been a good fit here... he actually makes tackles and plays.

BTW... The 4 starting LB's for the Texans had 10 tackles, 0 sacks and 0 fumble recoveries. And were playing against a weaker offensive line.
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WHEN WILL THIS DEBATE DIE!

look at the defensive scheme he's playing in and look at ours and honestly tell me you think he'd be as effective here. This arguement has been a lame duck from the get go.

You told us so! We get it! Is that what you want to hear? Is that what will make this useless babble go away.

Why not contribute something more productive than an I told you so that can't even be proven. No one said DJ wasn't a good player or athlete. It was simply a question of where he would fit in in our defensive scheme. The GM and Coaching staff obviously figured that he wouldn't. And as far as drafting TJ, with Gary-I hurt my (insert body part here)-Walker riding the pine again after this weeks injury, depth on the D-line looks like a pretty good idea.
 
texan279 said:
DJ - 7 tackles 1 assist

Wong- 11 tackles 7 assists
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"crickets chirping"

Hervoyel said:
Yes, DJ does have a much better supporting cast around him than TJ (I assume you meant TJ and not AJ on that touttail). The thing is in order to get a better supporting you have to start somewhere. The first good guy anywhere has a lousy supporting cast.

Come to think of it wasn't Kansas City the team that had no defense? How could KC have a better supporting cast than TJ when KC's crummy defense is legendary?
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Kansas City added Patrick Surtain, Sammy Knight and Kendrell Bell to their defense.

Houston added Phillip Buchanon, Marlon Greenwood and lost Jamie Sharper and Aaron Glenn.

But you're right about having to start somewhere. And if you look around the league at the successful teams running the 3-4 (New England and Pittsburgh), you'll see that they started on the DL.

But again, I'll re-iterate...

Huge said:
My apologies, gents. I should've known better than to attempt this after a disappointing loss.
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This will never die.

Tony Boselli never playing a down will never die. Bennie Joppru being injured for the rest of his natural life will never die. Giving up 5 first day picks for Buchanon and Babin will never die. Getting David Carr sacked 76 times in his rookie year will never die.

Look william.carter, there are things that teams do that stay with them forever. People will talk about them for as long as people talk about the team. Some things in this world are ripe for being forever second guessed. Taking TJ when DJ fell to the Texans will be one of those. Get used to it because you're going to see it every year for as long as the two of them play in this league. Then, after they're gone you'll see it brought up every time the Texans do something even a little bit questionable in the draft.

Thinking that this will end is like watching the playoffs and thinking you won't hear someone mention the Buffalo comeback. It's a nice dream but it has zero chance of happening.

And for the record the Texans were fools to pass on DJ when he fell to them. ;)
 
William.carter said:
WHEN WILL THIS DEBATE DIE!
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It's not really a debate. The Texans had the opportunity to get a play making linebacker which is something this team does not currently have. The guy is obviously a better player as a rookie than anyone on the Texans entire defense, excluding Robinson.

It just points out one of many personnel mistakes this organization has made and these mistakes are not going to magically go away.
 
Hervoyel said:
Thinking that this will end is like watching the playoffs and thinking you won't hear someone mention the Buffalo comeback. It's a nice dream but it has zero chance of happening.
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God! That is so true. Whenever I look back at the Oilers, that horrific day in Buffalo always leaps to the front.

What a wonderful legacy they left, huh?
 
KC v. Denver tonight. It should be fun watching Derrick Johnson continue his campaign for ROY. He should get a couple of sacks and about 10 tackles tonight. The kind of performance that would not fit the Texans' system.
 
Demarcus Ware - 9 tackles, 1 sack
Marcus Spears - 5 tackles, .5 sack

What the hell was Parcells/Jones thinking!?!?!? They could've drafted Derrick Johnson and his production would been greater than both of our first round picks combined!


Kerry Rhodes - 20 tackles, 1 INT (4th Round)
Brodney Pool - 7 tackles, 0 INTs (2nd Round)

No wonder Cleveland is at the bottom of the food chain every year. Their FO is chocked full of dummies also.


Carnell Williams - 434 rushing yards, 2 TDs
Ronnie Brown - 224 rushing yards, 1 TD

And Williams was the 3rd RB taken? Jumanji!!!
 
Derrick Johnson - 17 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 Fumble Recovery

Kailee Wong - 18 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Jason Babin - 6 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Morlon Greenwood - 10 Tackles, 0 Sacks, 0 Fumble Recoveries
Antwan Peek - 7 Tackes, 1 Sack, 0 Fumble Recoveries

All together now, DERRICK JOHNSON IS BETTER THAN ANY LINEBACKER WE HAVE.

If you want to compare apples to apples, where does DJ rank among LOLB?
 
I didn't realize Wong had that many tackles.

That gives him more than Chad Brown or Monty Biesel (Patriots' ILBs), more than James Farrior or Larry Foote (Steelers' ILBs) and more than Derek Smith or Jeff Ulbrich (49ers' ILBs).

That's pretty good company.
 
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