Shocker. Guy just doesn't look like a football player. Didn't last year, doesn't this year
Keep Texans Talk Google Ad Free!
Venmo Tip Jar | Paypal Tip Jar
Thanks for your support! 🍺😎👍
Training Camp Practice Updates - 2011
- Thread starter b0ng
- Start date
Shocker. Guy just doesn't look like a football player. Didn't last year, doesn't this year
Well, they did bring in that Dobbins guy from SD/Miami... albeit his stat line isn't very impressive, he has played in this system (or something like it) his whole career.
Perfect pattern and a perfect pass. No one would have defended that.
redwhiteANDblue
Veteran
It's not about that. His footwork is terrible. He keeps falling down. Notice right after the first cut he's already stumbling and then on the second cut where Walter goes back, Kareem just flat out falls. And yeah, maybe nobody could have broken that one up but a real NFL corner could have at least stayed in the vicinity of the pass to put pressure on the receiver to make the catch.
It would make sense to bring in a veteran OLB to show Mario, Barwin, Reed and Nading how it's done.
I'm surprised you mentioned that he looks smaller than the other OLB's. But I guess that is true since Mario can make anyone look small and Barwin is 2" taller. Brooks height/weight is similiar to Cushing, but he played DE in college. Man I'm hoping he makes big strides over these next 4 weeks and can contribute similar to how Barwin contributed his rookie season.
If you put Barwin, Mario, Cushing, Watt, DeMeco, Reed and Smith in on 3rd down, how could any offense line contain that?
b0ng
Bad Hombre
CasteFootball just got an erection and they don't know why.
If that was the case then you'd see that pattern run all the time.
Any route is defendable. Kj just didn't do a great job on that play. He did a bad job of feeling the receiver, poor job of changing directions, and he slipped.
He wasn't in good position to play that route. He took away the inside slant, but he has to know that type of route is a possibility.
It was a really good route, and a well timed pass. But it can still be played better.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
I see your point. And, IMHO, the only "cure" for KJ's ailments is studying the game more. Successful CBs know the WR route tree as well as the WRs do. And they know what routes are most likely to be run in a given game situation. It's painfully obvious that KJ ain't there yet. With better coaching and film study he may get there. Or he may never get there.
I sense that KJ has become the new Petey Faggins/Jacque Reeves
GP
Go Texans!
Well I have been told by about two dozen people on here that you're not supposed to try and catch the ball in that situation--That batting it down is how you're supposed to do it.
Seems Danieal Manning and I share the same philosophy: Put ten fingers around the ball or bat it down as a last resort.
I still don't know why people think deflecting a ball, in traffic, is better than securing it with both hands. Especially if it's lofted and you have a chance to get under it. Oh well. At least we have ONE defensive back who isn't afraid to catch the ball in crunch time. And you guys spare me the "That's how they are coached" crap. Manning doesn't share that opinion, obviously.
Did he go over and watch defense in previous camps? Asking because I can't remember, nor have been to any camps.
It could be that Gary and Wade, if morphed together, would be the perfect head coach. Instead, they can each be head coaches (essentially "o-coord and d-coord") of their own squads, with Gary making ultimate decisions. Though I doubt we'll ever see Gary interfering with Wade's decisions on the defense. Those two guys are probably going to be like self-contained, separate entities...which works if things are good (we're winning) and bad if things are not good (losing) because you're going to have one side pointing at the other, with two daddies on each side saying "It's not MY kid's fault!"
That's a concern I have: The isolation factor of having essentially a HC on offense and a HC on defense. On most teams, the HC is the HC and he has a OC and a DC under him. HC duties are relegated to planning and making sure his OC and DC are doing things he wants them to do--If he doesn't like things, he can fire and hire an OC and DC separately.
But with us, the HC is essentially the OC and now he has a legitimate DC (Wade) who will most likely function and be seen, by his defensive players, as being THEIR head coach. Gary cannot fire Wade, and I don't want anybody telling me that Wade was Gary's hire. Bullshit. That was a McNair hiring, which proves that Bob has his hand in things and isn't just letting Rick and Gary run free with all operations. McNair decided to keep Kubiak; McNair hired Wade to serve in a Kubiak-ish role for the defense. And with that, Kubiak lost a measure of control over the whole team.
With that hiring, only McNair can fire Phillips (and he isn't going to be one and done with Wade after one bad year here in 2011). And if the defense improves but the offense still struggles and can't get going until the 4th quarter, there'll be an increasing chance that Wade Phillips assumes the throne since this will be (IIRC) Kubiak's final year unless he gets a new deal. The thing McNair loses, if he cans Kubiak, is the ability to spot offense talent in the draft AND probably the continuity on offense--The guys on offense won't deal very well with losing Kubiak, IMO.
EDIT: Things are going badly in Washington for Shanny and Shanny, Jr. IF Kubiak gets axed after 2011, is it possible that McNair could lure Kyle Shanahan back to Houston to serve as OC with full OC control? I just feel like the playcalling with Kyle was a lot more diverse and less predictable than what we have now. Plus, from it sounds like in the things Steph Stradley shared about Kyle during his stay here, he is VERY smart on offense and is well-liked by the players. I wonder if McNair, in the back of his mind, isn't already thinking about Kyle the same way he might have been thinking about Wade when Wade was on thin ice with Dallas last season? I think it could work, if need be.
So we've got ourselves a bit of a situation here, IMO. If things work well, everybody is happy. If things fall apart, it could get ugly in a hurry. Houston's two prominent coaches--Kubiak and Phillips--will be front and center under a microscope for the media, fans, and ownership. It could get Highlander up in here.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Dude.
Go tell it to Deion Sanders.
Go watch the re-cap show on NFLN with Mariucci and with Deion.
Every time there's a hail mary pass, they start yelling "KNOCK IT DOWN! KNOCK IT DOWN!"
Why do they do that? A joke?
No. It's what 99.999% of the coaches out there teach their young DBs to do on a hail mary. The only coach I've ever heard of who didn't was YOURs.
GP
Go Texans!
Why didn't Manning knock it down?
It's not a 99.999% thing like it's being proposed.
I guess we have a dumbass Safety then? Did anybody sit Manning down and give him an ass chewing for catching the ball? Probably not.
It's not either/or, obviously. There's room for both ways.
What was the situation?
You are supposed to knock it down when you are in traffic when it's an end of the game situation. The ball bounces off your hands a lot more softly when you try to catch it and don't vs violently slapping it to the turf.
Last year glover, IMO, was unlucky and I think he should have swatted the ball harder towards the sideline instead of serving a volley.
Just google search batting the ball down in end of the game situations.
Porky
Hall of Fame
KJ wishes he could be that good. The guy flat out deserves to be cut. I've been saying since day one he is a bust. He is completely worthless crap as a football player. Get rid of him. Save whatever you can on the cap, and bring in another FA or two at positions of need. Of course, they will never admit how bad a selection that was. They will hold onto him, trying to save face instead of doing what's best for this team. Dump him. He stinks. Just another terrible defensive selection by the Smithiak regime who have proven over and over that they are clueless at evaluating defensive talent. At least Wade knows how to draft defensive players. KJ, go get a job with State Farm and let's move on for the best of this team.
SheTexan
Hall of Fame
I'm beginning to wonder if he watches film, studies routes at all, or just isn't smart enough to "get it." Maybe he's not even coachable! Who knows! BUT, I sure as hell DO NOT want to go through another "KJ is learning year."
GP
Go Texans!
Man, I totally agree.
It's just a "Defend your first rounder" mentality that every team has. Nobody wants to admit they reached on a guy in round 1.
I think, honestly enough, that he could get cut after this season. Preseason will be the life or death of KJ for 2011, IMO. Plays good, he's CB2. Plays bad, and I can see Wade sitting him down in favor of Carmichael or Harris...or even Jason Allen (he's still with us, right?).
Makes no sense to put him at CB2 in reg season game 1 if he hasn't earned it. McNair signed off on the idea to cut Amobi, probably at Wade's request, and so I hope Wade sees what we see IF it turns out that KJ slumps in preseason like I think he will.
THAT is the one glaring spot on defense, for me, as is a bit of question at the NT position. Other than that, I'm good with everything else out there.
I'm wondering if he can be a man to man corner in the NFL. If somehow we could infuse him and Brice McCain I think we'd have a really good nickel corner.
GP
Go Texans!
All I am saying is that there is not a uniform, 100% across the board cult-like mentality on whether you knock it down or try to catch it. It's not automatic.
Obviously, the knock it down philosophy CAN cost you the game. I seriously have never been taught that you always knock it down 100% of the time. Yeah, maybe if you're doing it because you CAN'T get to the ball in time to get a good set of hands on it, for the catch.
We spent so much time on trying to cause turnovers that we were taught to cause a fumble or catch the ball if we could. I can never remember being told to simply bat the ball down in any situation where we had the chance, especially in traffic, to catch it and end the game right there. (I wasn't good enough to play on offense--Too small for the line, too slow for HB, too short for WR). Trying to undo what you've been drilled to do (go for the turnover) is counter-intuitive out there under the lights and under pressure.
Which is why Manning caught the ball instead of dinking it and giving the WR a shot at it. Obviously, Manning could give two shits about knocking the ball down if he can get his hands around it. Good for him.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
What me and several other people on here have been saying is that DBs are taught to knock the ball down in a Hail Mary situation. And that's just what my quote said.
What you had said in another thread is that you were taught to go for the interception. And I've never, ever heard of any coach teaching that in that Hail Mary situation. A lot of defensive backs DO go for the interception and a lot of interceptions are made in that situation.
BUT that's not what they're taught to do and for most people, that's considered a grandstanding play because going for the pick has a higher chance of a bad play.
From what I remember seeing in the Bullpen Photos of Mannings interceptions, they didn't really look like Hail Mary's. They looked like normal passes into the end-zone... and that's a different animal than a jump ball when you're surrounded by a lot of other players all going for the ball.
EDIT: One of the plays I thought was a Manning interception was actually a Troy Nolan goal-line interception.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
My skepticism with that is the light weight Dline is always going against a light weight Oline in practice.............
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Cosign.
Porky
Hall of Fame
My skepticism with that is the light weight Dline is always going against a light weight Oline in practice.............
Yup. And my educated guess is that teams will try and attack our defense up the gut. At least I would. I think we will struggle against the big physical lines, and without an anchor in the middle we will be very vulnerable to traps, draws, and over the center or guard runs as well as screens right in the middle of our D. Yes, that and KJ (if he starts) will be our Achilles heels.
The strength will be on the outsides of the D, where I feel really good about. Speed, size and athleticism in spades there, but not on the inside - well, speed yes, but not size and brute strength to hold the point of attack. The inside NT position will be designed to be quick and penetrating, but I suspect that will make us vulnerable to those inside screens bigtime. Having said that, I see big improvement with this D over last years disaster.
The truth is that in previous camps, it was mentioned more than once on this board that Kubiak was leaving the D to the Dcord. At least, if he's still doing that now, his butt may be safer in that there is at least one person watching the D that knows what they're doing.
I think on gameday may be where it pays off the biggest.
if kubiak is able to not be worried about every defensive play call coming through, he may be able to focus on his area of expertise more.
I think wade is perfectly capable of handling that unit by his lonesome.
Leinart heaved the ball into the end zone with 2 seconds on the clock. I call that a hail mary. I think we're talking about two different things. If all a DB can do is get a hand on the ball, knock it down rather than tip or deflect the ball. But if he can secure the football, by all means do so. Quin could have secured the football in Jacksonville. Manning did secure the ball in practice.
JCTexan
Hall of Fame
A question: Andre was back in practice today, so why was Joseph against Jones? Was he going against dre at all or was he mainly on Jacoby?
Joseph pretty much stayed on the defensive right side. He took the WR on that side that was closest to the sideline, for the most part.
GP
Go Texans!
Read Lucky's reply. He is saying what I am saying: Can't get a good read on the ball, or out of position? Flail away! But if you can, wrap two hands around it and secure it.
Quin could have caught the ball. Manning DID catch the ball.
Grandstanding play? Puhleeze! If catching the ball and falling to the ground with it, causing a turnover, and ending the game, is grandstanding...then I love me some grandstanding.
The world was once flat, too, ya' know. There's coaches out there right now who are not teaching the idea that every situation requires batting it down.
Just from a pure logical standpoint, it makes more sense to use two hands and try for the catch rather than simply playing volleyball with it. Unless, of course, other factors get in the way of that ideal situation. But to say Quin did the right thing, but just failed at it? Will never accept that as Gospel truth. he could have caught that ball. He did what he was coached to do, but that doesn't mean it's infallible and sacred to always do what you're coached to do.
And either Danieal Manning ignored that sacred command, or he was taught otherwise. Either way, he made a better play in a similar situation that Quin did vs. Jags. Just another reason why I have hope in the Texans this year--A d-coord who knows his ****, and at least ONE secondary player who is a baller and won't hesitate out there. Paralysis by analysis is what doomed the Texans defense for the past four years--Too much thinking and not enough instinct.
EllisUnit
Vote RED!!!
http://www.texansbullpen.com/11photogallery/Preseason/2011-08-07-TrainingCamp/Photos-album.htm
photo 62 confirms Vickers belly is big haha
photo 62 confirms Vickers belly is big haha
GP
Go Texans!
Holy smokes. There's a baby in there. Second trimester, for sure.
Geez, Lawrence. Lay off the Whataburger already. I bet he'll lose a good amount of that. Kubiak doesn't like fat kids.
Playoffs
Hall of Fame
That's ballast.
Kimmy
RealGirls LvFB!
GP
Go Texans!
yeah i think he may be pregnant, i hope maternity leave is after the superbowl
It will pop out and pump its fist in the air.
I imagine it too look like a mini Vickers, goatee and all. And it jumps out of the arms of the nurse and runs over the doctor, clearing a way for Lawrence to leave the delivery room. BAM!
playa465
Veteran
My skepticism with that is the light weight Dline is always going against a light weight Oline in practice.............
^^^ I agree with both of you...I hope all the concern with pass defense, sacks and QB pressure doesn't leave us vulnerable against the run. We're asking alot of this D with new coaching, scheme, players and new positions. Not going to beat a dead horse but big NT or not, the middle of a 3-4 D has to be stout with a tenacious player..if our NT can not hold the point of attack or penetrate with positive results its not going to work.
b0ng
Bad Hombre
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Listen. All I'm saying is that every coach in the world (except for maybe 1) tells their DBs that in a Hail Mary situation -- knock the ball down. To support that, I just posted a quote from an NFL safety that said that he'd been taught that and that DBs are always taught that. An NFL head coach was re-evaluating the philosophy because of the GQ play... BUT that just underlines the point that it is the prevailing philosophy.
Go back to the quote. I don't understand why there's even a continuing discussion about this. Watch the highlight shows with Deion Sanders, every time there's a Hail Mary, he screams "Knock It Down" in chorus with Steve Mariucci. When Berman and Jackson used to do Primetime on ESPN, every time there was a Hail Mary, Berman would say something to the effect of "What do you do?" and Jackson would say, "Knock it down."
Do some guys go ahead and intercept it if they have the chance? Yes. But that's not what they're coached to do and there have been lots of games when a guy has tried to intercept and it's turned into a bad play: it's gone through their hands, it's bounced off their hands, they've intercepted it and then fumbled. That GQ play was the first time I can remember ever seeing a guy do what he was coached to do (Knock it DOWN) and it backfire.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
drs23
Veteran
Thanks b0ng. Sounded like a non-biased evaluation. He had the same impression of Watt as everyone else I've heard report about him. Outside linebacker play sounds like a echo from this MB since the switch was announced. The FA pick ups sound really promising.
KJ fell down. Again.
GP
Go Texans!
We can do this all year long if we want to.
I can go and find quotes to support my theory, too. Fire fights fire, etc.
If you have the chance to get under a ball, with plenty of time to put your ass into the WR's belly and basically "block out" the WR, would YOU, Pencil Neck, try to knock the ball down or would you try to time the jump and catch it with both hands (thumbs together, fingers spread wide like a catcher's mitt in front of your facemask)?
I'd wager that there are coaches out there right now who (a) teach what I'm saying, or (b) didn't teach it before but watched the lowlights of the Texans-Jags game and are teaching it NOW.
My argument is not if that's what David "I Suck And Get Fired From Every Team I Coach DBs For" Gibbs taught him or not. My argument is against the idea itself and if it's even the right thing to do or not.
You're trying to say it's LAW that you knock that ball down, and I call bullshit on that. It is a questionable teaching before Quin screwed it up, it is definitely questionable now, and there are coaches out there who had been teaching to "catch if you can" and there are some teaching it now who didn't previously.
All I'm saying is that a lot of you guys got on here and started piling on as if I didn't know anything about football, and it turns out that GP might not just be spitballin' on this particular topic. Fair enough? If not, then you're wanting to argue for the sake of arguing, IMO.
GP
Go Texans!
I can find anything I want. Hell, I can go survey the Amarillo-area high school coaches and ask them personally.
This, of course, never satisfies the person who says "You're STILL wrong," because they can say my sources are weak or fake or whatever.
The point here is that there are some grown-ass men on here acting like there's an irrefutable, 10 Commandments Law on what to do when in a Hail Mary situation.
I have given this topic more time and energy than it deserves. I feel most people who don't have a dog in this fight can see what I'm saying, and they know that at this point this is just a pissing contest between me and 2 or 3 posters on here.
BFD. Look THAT up and tell me what it means.
This would be funny if it were not so terribly sad. Lucky goes and gives evidence of a pretty "decent" Safety (Manning) going up and bringing the ball back down in his hands, and somehow I still have to find ONE quote from some obscure coach somewhere in order to prove the world is not flat like everybody says it is. LOL.
It's ok to disagree with people.
I completely disagree with you or anyone who says that you go for the int in an end of the game final heave situation.
I don't know every coach ever, but I have been around a lot of coaches and a lot football. I have always heard bat the ball down in end of the game situations like that. I have been on the winning team in college where a db tried to catch the ball and our wr caught it and the stands rushed the field.
We practiced that play "hope right" which was just a 'bunch' to the right. The lead wr was supposed to go up and high point the ball and the two trailing receivers were taught to look for the rebound. I never thought we'd run that play, but that that one play we ran like two times at the end of every practice paid off.
I have also been in quite a few games where we were the team yelling at the db's to knock the ball down and it worked.
Look you can have your opinion but I think you are wrong.
As an offensive player you'd rather the db go for the catch because that keeps the play alive. Batting the ball down is designed to end the play as quickly as possible. When people go up for catches balls ricochet softly. The slightest bobble can allow a receiver to get a hand in there.
If a receiver happens to get his hand on the ball and catches it with the db, the ball always goes to the offense.
Lots of crazy catches in football history where one player juggles it or tries to catch it and the other guy somehow lucks into a catchable ball.
It's about minimizing the possible negative outcomes. Spiking the ball away from traffic does that.
If you coach a team little league or whatever, you can teach them to go for the catch. I think it's safe to say that most coaches are going to stick with the swat the ball down approach though. It had worked many times over again. And if I coach little league again I will tell the defense what I have told them in the past. Swat the ball away as hard as you can.
Just one more question.
I mentioned all of the crazy catches there have been when db's go for picks. I have been in and seen games where a db goes for a pick at the end of the game and a wr catches it off the rebound.
Exactly how many times have you seen a gq situation where the guy bats the ball right to a wr?
I mentioned all of the crazy catches there have been when db's go for picks. I have been in and seen games where a db goes for a pick at the end of the game and a wr catches it off the rebound.
Exactly how many times have you seen a gq situation where the guy bats the ball right to a wr?