Trade Down - and still get Bush?

[TommyS]

i know, i know, more rumour from profootballtalk, but i like this scenario...

"The talk in league circles is that Condon and CAA have told Leinart that they will persuade either the Jets or the Titans to swing a deal with the Texans to make Leinart the No. 1 overall selection in the draft."

have to assume the New Orleans wouldnt take Bush at 2 as they have a ton of money tied up in Duece McAllister.

assume trade with Jets - i think the Titans would take bush at 3. but trade with the Titans and get bush at in the 3 spot would save an absolute fortune in cap $. there is however always the possibility that the Jets would take Bush at one, but if they want Leinart they dont have too much tied up in their QBs - Ramsey (cheap) and Pennington (renegotiated (cheapish)

honestly, i was a trade down guy anyway, but this would be perfect. trade down, extra picks, still get reggie.

any thoughts on how ridiculous this is?

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

if there is a mod who can move this to the draft threads, please do so. sorry.

 

[texansfaninla]

If we trade down, it seems like the prospect of drafting Vince Young is increased in my opinion. Seems like the Jets would trade up for Bush, Saints take D'Brick or Mario, Titans take Leinart, Texans take Vince...Of course, the Titans' situation would be the sticky one, and we'd basically be sticking our future in Bud Adams' hands. I could see him taking Vince especially in that situation, knowing who we want. Seems less likely putting it that way. I think I've seen too much draft speculation - this next two and a half weeks is going to be brutal. Or maybe I'm just tired and need to go to bed.

 

[MorKnolle]

I'm fine trading down as long as we get Reggie Bush or Mario Williams out of it, unfortunately both of them could be gone by #4.

 

[Hervoyel]

At this point I'm against trading down unless someone has put the farm on the table. To me the top pick in this draft is about Reggie Bush or about getting stupid compensation from someone else who wants Reggie Bush. With the moves that have been made by teams in the top 5 this year I'd say that anyone going to #1 wants Reggie Bush. trading out of the top spot and thinking that you're still going to get Bush is kind of crazy.

 

[Hardcore Texan]

I just don't ever in my life see this happening. Too much daydreaming by going on by people in the media while waiting draft day. Bush will go #1, if we pick him or if we trade down either way, I just think that is how it is going to be.

The Jets or the Titans will still have a shot at either Cutler, Young, or Leinart no matter what happens, without giving away the farm. I just don't see it going down like that.

 

[Bobo]

At this point I'm against trading down unless someone has put the farm on the table. To me the top pick in this draft is about Reggie Bush or about getting stupid compensation from someone else who wants Reggie Bush. With the moves that have been made by teams in the top 5 this year I'd say that anyone going to #1 wants Reggie Bush. trading out of the top spot and thinking that you're still going to get Bush is kind of crazy.

The NFL graveyard is littered with failed RBs who were picked in the first round. Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips and Archie Griffin come to mind. Plus, RBs are a dime a dozen. After all, if that position was so valuable, why did the Colts get rid of James? It really gets me how so many Texans fans think the braintrust should operate the franchise like a fantasy football team. Grab the guy who supposedly will make all the TDs and forget what makes the TDs really happen, ie. the OL. If the Texans trade down, they need to get either OL help or defensive aid. Forget the fantasy football garbage -- this team has plenty of folks who can carry, catch and throw the ball. The people they need are folks who will stop the other team from carrying, catching and throwing the ball and who will let our guys do the same.

 

[Big B Texan Fan]

The NFL graveyard is littered with failed RBs who were picked in the first round. Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips and Archie Griffin come to mind. Plus, RBs are a dime a dozen. After all, if that position was so valuable, why did the Colts get rid of James? It really gets me how so many Texans fans think the braintrust should operate the franchise like a fantasy football team. Grab the guy who supposedly will make all the TDs and forget what makes the TDs really happen, ie. the OL. If the Texans trade down, they need to get either OL help or defensive aid. Forget the fantasy football garbage -- this team has plenty of folks who can carry, catch and throw the ball. The people they need are folks who will stop the other team from carrying, catching and throwing the ball and who will let our guys do the same.

This has got to be the best post of the 06' pre-draft era.

 

[wolf123]

The NFL graveyard is littered with failed RBs who were picked in the first round. Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips and Archie Griffin come to mind. Plus, RBs are a dime a dozen. After all, if that position was so valuable, why did the Colts get rid of James? It really gets me how so many Texans fans think the braintrust should operate the franchise like a fantasy football team. Grab the guy who supposedly will make all the TDs and forget what makes the TDs really happen, ie. the OL. If the Texans trade down, they need to get either OL help or defensive aid. Forget the fantasy football garbage -- this team has plenty of folks who can carry, catch and throw the ball. The people they need are folks who will stop the other team from carrying, catching and throwing the ball and who will let our guys do the same.

Bobo,

I find it funny that you believe that the Texans have plenty of people who can catch the ball or carry it when it appears that only two starters from last season, who carry or catch, will be starting again (AJ & DD). And since we, according to one of your previous posts, "Have not acquired anyone good in FA"(paraphrased), then where is the abundance of options for DC to hand/throw the ball to. I also enjoy your "fantasy football" analogy for the mindset that our braintrust "apparently" has. (I think everyone would like to see a link to your source for such info). It has been demonstrated that successful OL's do not have to have a 1st Round pick starting there, so why can't later draft selections compete with FA acquisitions and previous starters in order to create a good line.

Also, high-ranked draftee failures are seen in any position, not just running back. You should know this, b/c of all your years of observation. The lottery is a crap shoot, it always has been; teams simply observe and study college performances and workouts in order to HYPOTHESIZE who will succeed.

 

[wolf123]

The addition of a player such as R Bush, has a great likelihood of enhancing this Texans team. BPA my friend, BPA.

 

[rittenhouserobz]

The NFL graveyard is littered with failed RBs who were picked in the first round. Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips and Archie Griffin come to mind. Plus, RBs are a dime a dozen. After all, if that position was so valuable, why did the Colts get rid of James? It really gets me how so many Texans fans think the braintrust should operate the franchise like a fantasy football team. Grab the guy who supposedly will make all the TDs and forget what makes the TDs really happen, ie. the OL. If the Texans trade down, they need to get either OL help or defensive aid. Forget the fantasy football garbage -- this team has plenty of folks who can carry, catch and throw the ball. The people they need are folks who will stop the other team from carrying, catching and throwing the ball and who will let our guys do the same.

Are you trying to say Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips, and Archie Griffin came out of college with the same level of anticipation as Bush? I am not certain that I have seen a RB that was considered such a sure thing in the NFL as Bush has been. I know I have been on the side of getting pass protection, but I also think that we can get solid OL players in the 2nd or 3rd rounds of the draft. I would not suggest that somebody is trying to build the team Madden style, because they want to draft the BPA.

 

[TexansLucky13]

The addition of a player such as R Bush, has a great likelihood of enhancing this Texans team. BPA my friend, BPA.

Exactly. The top pick is about BPA.... it's for WANTS. Reggie Bush is considered the top out-of-college prospect in 15 years. That puts him on the top of our list. I know you are an observant fellow... you must know this to be true. The only way we would trade down is if we got a HUGE deal, and it doesnt look like that is going to happen. Sorry, Bobo.

I'm all for trading down if we got a huge deal, but we will take Reggie if that does not happen.

 

[TheOgre]

Okay so lets look at this scenario:

1 Titans (from Texans) - take Matt Leinart
2 New Orleans
3 Texans (from Titans)
4 NY Jets
5 Green Bay
6 San Fran
7 Oakland

If we did that, don't you think a team would trade with New Orleans for the right to draft Bush? I could see the Jets doing that.

 

[Trenches]

Okay so lets look at this scenario:

1 Titans (from Texans) - take Matt Leinart
2 New Orleans
3 Texans (from Titans)
4 NY Jets
5 Green Bay
6 San Fran
7 Oakland

If we did that, don't you think a team would trade with New Orleans for the right to draft Bush? I could see the Jets doing that.

that would be perfect. we would get what we really need...either D'Brick or Mario.

 

[Texansfan30]

Sorry, but D'Brick is NOT who we should take. Look at the teams who have won or been in the last few Super Bowls. Very few have OL guys who were taken as high first round picks. New England, Denver, Carolina - all of these teams have good Offensive lines that can be gotten without using #1 overall picks.

If a trade down happened and Bush was gone, I would go for Mario Williams. A tremendous, dominant DE like him (possibly best in last 8 years) is much more dominant than a franchise LT. You could get a solid LT in the 2nd round and the difference in quality wouldn't be as much as the difference between Mario Williams and Jason Babin.

That being said, I am all for Reggie Bush. He is a difference maker. If a young Barry Sanders was there for us to draft, would you be saying 'Draft D'Brick?'? The Packers made that mistake - they took the 'can't miss, solid, Hall of Fame for sure' prospect Tony Mandarich in 1989 instead of Barry Sanders. We all know how that turned out.

You can't run the 'draft playbook' of what positions to draft in order to 'build' a winning team. If we drafted D'Brick, we would probably, in a couple years, be a solid 10-6 team, go to the playoffs and lose in the first round each year. The goal should be to start, right now, to building a SUPER BOWL team that is ready to compete in 2-3 years. That starts with explosive players that can generate matchups. Reggie Bush is Mr. Matchup. I have never seen a guy (except maybe L. Tomlinson) who can be so effective out of the backfield, split out wide, in the slot, etc, etc, etc. D. Davis is an 1800 yard a year rusher - but the problem is, he can't ever play a full year. He's Mr. Injury.

Think of the offense we'll have with the pickups we have made. Then we start drafting next year and concentrate on Defense, and in 2007 we should really be competitive, having given the offense a year to absorb Kube's system.

Go Reggie!!!!

 

[Trenches]

Sorry, but D'Brick is NOT who we should take. Look at the teams who have won or been in the last few Super Bowls. Very few have OL guys who were taken as high first round picks. New England, Denver, Carolina - all of these teams have good Offensive lines that can be gotten without using #1 overall picks.

If a trade down happened and Bush was gone, I would go for Mario Williams. A tremendous, dominant DE like him (possibly best in last 8 years) is much more dominant than a franchise LT. You could get a solid LT in the 2nd round and the difference in quality wouldn't be as much as the difference between Mario Williams and Jason Babin.

That being said, I am all for Reggie Bush. He is a difference maker. If a young Barry Sanders was there for us to draft, would you be saying 'Draft D'Brick?'? The Packers made that mistake - they took the 'can't miss, solid, Hall of Fame for sure' prospect Tony Mandarich in 1989 instead of Barry Sanders. We all know how that turned out.

You can't run the 'draft playbook' of what positions to draft in order to 'build' a winning team. If we drafted D'Brick, we would probably, in a couple years, be a solid 10-6 team, go to the playoffs and lose in the first round each year. The goal should be to start, right now, to building a SUPER BOWL team that is ready to compete in 2-3 years. That starts with explosive players that can generate matchups. Reggie Bush is Mr. Matchup. I have never seen a guy (except maybe L. Tomlinson) who can be so effective out of the backfield, split out wide, in the slot, etc, etc, etc. D. Davis is an 1800 yard a year rusher - but the problem is, he can't ever play a full year. He's Mr. Injury.

Think of the offense we'll have with the pickups we have made. Then we start drafting next year and concentrate on Defense, and in 2007 we should really be competitive, having given the offense a year to absorb Kube's system.

Go Reggie!!!!

If ANY position is one you don't take top 5 its RB. What makes a good RB? Ask any spare RB thats come thru Denver in the last few years. A good offensive line. Left tackle IS a premire position. As is a pass rushing DE.

Two things you MUST be able to do to even think about winning: sack the other QB and keep yours from being sacked. We can do neither.

It comes down to how you want your team built. I'd rather build the Steelers than the Colts. Ownership wants excitement so they are building the latter.

 

[kastofsna]

Pft.

 

[infantrycak]

Ask any spare RB thats come thru Denver in the last few years. A good offensive line. Left tackle IS a premire position. As is a pass rushing DE.

Denver isn't the best example for your point then--their LT was an undrafted free agent. Atlanta the other team built in the same fashion had a 7th rounder at LT.

 

[Trenches]

and Pro Bowl guys like Pace and Ogden were high picks. Denver had a different system and wanted different types of guys than other teams did. If Kubiak thinks the guys on this team fit his system then I have no problem with them. BUT, he didnt draft them and is stuck with most of them so what can he really do right now?

I want to see both lines up to NFL standards. If they are then we are at least a competitive team.

 

[Porky]

The NFL graveyard is littered with failed RBs who were picked in the first round. Curtis Enis, Lawrence Phillips and Archie Griffin come to mind. Plus, RBs are a dime a dozen. After all, if that position was so valuable, why did the Colts get rid of James? It really gets me how so many Texans fans think the braintrust should operate the franchise like a fantasy football team. Grab the guy who supposedly will make all the TDs and forget what makes the TDs really happen, ie. the OL. If the Texans trade down, they need to get either OL help or defensive aid. Forget the fantasy football garbage -- this team has plenty of folks who can carry, catch and throw the ball. The people they need are folks who will stop the other team from carrying, catching and throwing the ball and who will let our guys do the same.

You're right. There has never been a top offensive lineman bust terribly at the top of the draft.

Signed,

Tony Mandarich

 

[Samer]

I think we trade our second round pick and a third rounder along with DD to New Orleans, then draft Bush and Ferguson, lol only if that would ever happen

 

[Frank_The_Tank]

If we trade down to the Jets, compensation: 1'st round, 3rd round this year, 1st next year, Eric Colman and or Johnathen Vilma I think it would be worth the Bush.
If we trade with Titans, it would take 1st round this year, 1st round next year, and Kyle Vanden Bosch and Michael roos
For Grean Bay, it would take more than they would be willing to offer.

 

[Texansfan30]

If ANY position is one you don't take top 5 its RB. What makes a good RB? Ask any spare RB thats come thru Denver in the last few years. A good offensive line. Left tackle IS a premire position. As is a pass rushing DE.

Two things you MUST be able to do to even think about winning: sack the other QB and keep yours from being sacked. We can do neither.

It comes down to how you want your team built. I'd rather build the Steelers than the Colts. Ownership wants excitement so they are building the latter.

I disagree. There aren't a whole lot of RBs I would take with the #1 overall pick, but there are a few. Barry Sanders, anyone? LaDainian Tomlinson?

Denver has built a solid program and has not used #1 picks on RBs. True. However, they haven't used #1 picks on their O Line, either.

I simply am looking at the value differences between what you can get at each position in the 1st vs. the 2nd and later. I think we could get an OL with the first pick in the 2nd or in the 3rd who would still be very good, especially in Kube's zone scheme. The difference between Ferguson and Eric Winston is not as big as the value that Bush will add, if used right.

Now if they get Reggie and just use him as a traditional back, it won't do any good. But they have the potential to turn him into someone who will make a difference on EVERY SINGLE PLAY, just by being on the field. Imagine him going in motion wide left. He could change the entire defense simply by going into motion. How effective will Andre be now? How much more effective will DD be? Bush and Andre split out very wide will take the entire secondary with them - leaving holes for DD. Talk about pick your poison.....

This will all be for naught if they don't address the OL. However, I am confident Kubes will do it. He just may not do it all this season.

 

[Trenches]

I disagree. There aren't a whole lot of RBs I would take with the #1 overall pick, but there are a few. Barry Sanders, anyone? LaDainian Tomlinson?

There is no way of knowing how Bush will turn out. Could be Peter Warrick all over again.

Now if they get Reggie and just use him as a traditional back, it won't do any good. But they have the potential to turn him into someone who will make a difference on EVERY SINGLE PLAY, just by being on the field. Imagine him going in motion wide left. He could change the entire defense simply by going into motion. How effective will Andre be now? How much more effective will DD be? Bush and Andre split out very wide will take the entire secondary with them - leaving holes for DD. Talk about pick your poison.....

I guess what I don't like about this is you have to pay 2 #1 RB's in this scenario. Now, if you told me we traded DD (and recieved decent value) and we had a RB who is good enough to split with Bush (but not cost much) then it makes it much easier to deal with.

 

[MorKnolle]

I think we trade our second round pick and a third rounder along with DD to New Orleans, then draft Bush and Ferguson, lol only if that would ever happen

If the Saints somehow took that deal then it would be Bush and Mario. Other than the huge deal we'd have to give up to get the #2 and the incredible cap hits we'd be undertaking for the next 5-6 years for taking Bush and Mario at #1 and 2, getting the best offensive and defensive playmakers in the last several years in the same draft would be pretty incredible.

 

[Janus3]

I'm fine trading down as long as we get Reggie Bush or Mario Williams out of it, unfortunately both of them could be gone by #4.

nope one or the other would still be there, this is how i see it.

1. Leinart (jets)
2. williams/ferguson (saints)
3. cutler/young (titans)
4. bush/ferguson/williams (texans)

this is assuming no one trades with the saints, but even if they do it'll probably be for bush which would leave williams and ferguson.

 

[kastofsna]

if the jets trade up to #1, they'd take bush.