Time For A Change

[Carr Bombed]

I rewatched the game last night and one thing I saw, espeicialy on the first sack on David was our Oline is getting beat off the ball. I mean I paused the game and ran slow mo and their whole Dline was already charching before any player(our whole line) could get out of their stance. It made me think does David have some tendency that opposing defenses picked up on in the film room and is he giving away the snap count. Now I didnt review every play because it was late. I'm going to go back and check the whole game today, but we were beaten badly off the ball. Also on another sack on David I saw the defense just brought a extra blitzer and nobody picked him up, nobody even looked at him. Now that and the penelties is just a lack of disipline. One thing is for sure, they better get this problem solved.

 

[Ibar_Harry]

Quite frankly I don't know if they can abandon the scheme nor would they want to, because they have such a fixation on the run. But they may have to make a lot of adjustments to fix it, if its fixable. I'm sorry but the run and DOM are linked at the hip. I think the problem is they view the pass too negatively probably as some of us would be said to view the pass to positively. There is a compromise somewhere in between. My main grip is that I believe they have set up the line to emphasize the run when we really don't have a running team. Our strength lies in passing the ball, but we have to run the ball also to be effective. Protecting a QB like David has to be of prime concern. At some point you are going to pass and hopefully it doesn't become kill the QB time for the other team.

 

[Vinny]

The Texans are not going to abandon their blocking scheme and they don't run the ball any more than most NFL teams do, and we clearly are a better running team than a passing team. Carr only threw for 9 TD passes last year. How can that make anyone think that we are a passing team at heart?

 

[Carr Bombed]

by the way how many times has Carr been sacked already this season

 

[Vinny]

by the way how many times has Carr been sacked already this season

I'm not sure I understand that answer...

Anyhoo, some of that is on Carr. Rob Johnson took tons of sacks in Buffalo and when they put Flutie in the sacks dropped tremendously with the same linemen. Carr has to do a better job with the pass rush as well.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I believe we can be great at both. One thing I would like to see though is more play action bombs down the field, Also David was a year younger and was hurt last year so I'm going to use this year to establish a judgement on his abilities and growth and so far I like what I see. Two touchdown passes so far, on pace for a 16 td season. I think hell pas for about 20 though.

 

[Ibar_Harry]

Vinny, I believe we have far better and more receivers than running backs. David can throw the ball if he has protection. I know you don't agree, but I believe that is the case. I also believe DD has been effective because of the fear of the pass. He is a better runner when we are successful with the pass. Again there are two offensive philosophies. One is the run establishes the pass and the other is the pass establishes the run. I believe our team fits the latter mode of operation, but we have not been as successful because of our O-line. This should have been a good year for us, but it has turned sour. I believe the changing of the blocking scheme to emphasize the run is the major reason why. AGAIN I'M NOT ADVOCATING NOT RUNNING. Its the primary emphasis on setting up to run and all its implications for the passing game that I'm complaining about.

Bye the way I appreciated your earlier comment that you would look closely at the game replays. I hope you do and I hope you see what I'm saying. I think its more of a problem than people realize.

 

[wags]

Some of that is on Carr. Rob Johnson took tons of sacks in Buffalo and when they put Flutie in the sacks dropped tremendously with the same linemen.

Rob Johnson was a statue in the pocket. He holds onto the ball longer than any QB ever. You put anyone in at QB and they will take less sacks than him. In our last game I would not put any one of the sacks on Carr. Rob Johnson. When he would go to the sidelines I think he had the trainers put cement on his shoes so he couldn't move around.

 

[Vinny]

I believe we can be great at both. One thing I would like to see though is more play action bombs down the field, Also David was a year younger and was hurt last year so I'm going to use this year to establish a judgement on his abilities and growth and so far I like what I see. Two touchdown passes so far, on pace for a 16 td season. I think hell pas for about 20 though.

You are right about one thing. Everything we expect out of Carr is potential and potential alone. We have no great comebacks where he took over a game with his arm. We have no 3 TD days to savor. We don't have any thrilling 30-35 point shoot outs we have won. We will have to wait to see if one day that is possible. I'm waiting to see it happen.

 

[Vinny]

Rob Johnson was a statue in the pocket. He holds onto the ball longer than any QB ever. You put anyone in at QB and they will take less sacks than him. In our last game I would not put any one of the sacks on Carr. Rob Johnson. When he would go to the sidelines I think he had the trainers put cement on his shoes so he couldn't move around.

Um, I assume you didn't watch many games with Johnson. Rob Johnson was as mobile as Carr and is as fast as any qb not named Michael Vick. Frankly, Johnson is probably faster than Carr but he had a poor feel for a pass rush and miserable field vision and tended to lock on to his wr's. Your characterization of Johnson is wide right.

 

[wags]

I did watch him. He may have been fast, but you are right when you say he would lock on sit there, like a statue. I have not seen Carr lock on this year and wait. I have seen him scramble for yards and avoid sacks.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Yeah I saw alot of would be sacks that David broke out of. The ones he got sacked on he didnt stand a chance, one that I stated before was a blind side blitzer that nodody even looked at or touched. David even moved out of the way of the brunt of that one avoid getting his back broken. This line needs to solidify fast or we are going to ruin this telanted mans career. I'm really getting tired of seeing him run for his life.

 

[Vinny]

I did watch him. He may have been fast, but you are right when you say he would lock on sit there, like a statue. I have not seen Carr lock on this year and wait. I have seen him scramble for yards and avoid sacks.

Carr is a better QB than Johnson will ever be, but they do share some traits. I have confidence Carr will do a better job with the rush as he evolves, but I'm not in denial that he has things to work on like most of you guys.

 

[Ibar_Harry]

Vinny, Gannon was the toast of the town until someone found out how to get through the Oakland O-line and then he looked worse than Carr. No QB can withstand the lack of protection. If the QB doesn't have time he's going to look bad. We paid a lot of bucks for David and his arm. If all he's going to do is hand off and complete short passes because of lack of protection then you wasted a lot of money on him as your selection. Is David a Manning, right now I would say no, but I think he is a way above average QB who is not getting any time to complete his assignments. David has had to take a lot of hits and get right back up and go back into the huddle and that is not an easy assignment as you well know.

 

[Carr Bombed]

You are right about one thing. Everything we expect out of Carr is potential and potential alone. We have no great comebacks where he took over a game with his arm. We have no 3 TD days to savor. We don't have any thrilling 30-35 point shoot outs we have won. We will have to wait to see if one day that is possible. I'm waiting to see it happen.

I wasn't talking about potential in this statement I was talking about what I've seen so far this season. He has 2 td passes so far and is on par for a 16 td season so 20 isnt out of the question. Also he led 80 and 81 yard drives late in that game, but its kind of hard to lead a great comeback when your defense can't get a stop to save their life and yourcoach calls running plays right up the middle of the field when time is running out.

 

[Vinny]

Vinny, I believe we have far better and more receivers than running backs. David can throw the ball if he has protection. I know you don't agree, but I believe that is the case. I also believe DD has been effective because of the fear of the pass. He is a better runner when we are successful with the pass. Again there are two offensive philosophies. One is the run establishes the pass and the other is the pass establishes the run. I believe our team fits the latter mode of operation, but we have not been as successful because of our O-line. This should have been a good year for us, but it has turned sour. I believe the changing of the blocking scheme to emphasize the run is the major reason why. AGAIN I'M NOT ADVOCATING NOT RUNNING. Its the primary emphasis on setting up to run and all its implications for the passing game that I'm complaining about.

Bye the way I appreciated your earlier comment that you would look closely at the game replays. I hope you do and I hope you see what I'm saying. I think its more of a problem than people realize.

I think your comment about line splits was one of your most astute comments you have ever offered up and show me you understand this stuff better than I thought you did. Good show.

I come with hard opinion but it's just me talking football with friends. Some of you guys blame the coaching. Some blame the line problems. Some guys blame Carr more for our lack of scoring. In reality none of us are probably right 100% but we all see different things and getting together on a message board and sharing our thoughts helps us understand the game better since two heads are generally better than one.

As to our ongoing debates, I told Infantrycak in a PM yesterday that I really kind of enjoy being in the minority view and a devil's advocate on message boards. You guys who disagree with me help me evolve my thinking if and when you can break down my posture on a subject. It's all good. We all learn from each other and multiple points of view drive great threads.

 

[Vinny]

I wasn't talking about potential in this statement I was talking about what I've seen so far this season. He has 2 td passes so far and is on par for a 16 td season so 20 isnt out of the question. Also he led 80 and 81 yard drives late in that game, but its kind of hard to lead a great comeback when your defense can't get a stop to save their life and yourcoach calls running plays right up the middle of the field when time is running out.

Well, I don't buy it yet. Those 4th quarter drives were not that impressive when you bust down the situations. I posted this at hpf earlier...but I will bring it here now...

Let's look at the 4th quarter activity. The Bradford TD was a blown coverage and the Texans only had one possession after that when we were down by two scores after Harrington drove his team down the field and iced the game with a TD pass to Williams in the most critical part of the game (we are behind 28-16 at that point).

After that the Lions were in a soft prevent and sitting on a two score lead and they gave us many of those underneath passes. We took the rest of the quarter to drive down the field and not score. Sure the passess were complete but what did it net? I mean, I can see the completion % has improved but look at the situation in the game as to what the real action was behind the stats.

4th Quarter starts

Houston Texans continued.
2-7-HST 49 (15:00) 37-D.Davis right end to DET 49 for 2 yards (92-S.Rogers).
3-5-DET 49 (14:20) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to DET 42 for 7 yards (25-F.Bryant). P16
1-10-DET 42 (13:48) 37-D.Davis left tackle to DET 35 for 7 yards (28-Bracy Walker; 31-B.Marion).
2-3-DET 35 (13:07) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson (29-C.Cash).
3-3-DET 35 (13:03) 37-D.Davis up the middle to DET 27 for 8 yards (38-K.Smith). R17
1-10-DET 27 (12:26) 8-D.Carr pass to 85-C.Bradford for 27 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P18
TWO-POINT CONVERSION ATTEMPT. 8-D.Carr pass to 86-J.Gaffney is incomplete. ATTEMPT FAILS.

There was a blown coverage here and Carr spotted it as Bradford backs in to score. Way too early to go for two here. Nearly a full quarter of football left and with a Detroit field goal we would have been down by eight. Turns out they scored a TD and was ahead by 12 so it was a moot point but if they kicked a field goal that would have forced us to go for two again just to tie. If we took the one point pat we would not have been forced into taking a 2pt conv had they kicked the field goal. I was amazed we went for two at this point. This was a very questionable coaching decision imo.

Second and last possession of the 4th quarter:

2-7-HST 13 (4:12) 8-D.Carr pass to 82-B.Miller to HST 20 for 7 yards (59-A.Lewis).
PENALTY on HST-77-T.Washington, Tripping, 6 yards, enforced at HST 13 - No Play. Penalty on HST-78-S.Wand, Offensive Holding, declined.
2-13-HST 7 (4:07) 8-D.Carr FUMBLES (Aborted) at HST 6, and recovers at HST 6. 8-D.Carr to HST 6 for no gain (54-T.Lehman).
3-14-HST 6 (3:39) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to HST 21 for 15 yards (59-A.Lewis). P19
1-10-HST 21 (3:13) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to HST 41 for 20 yards (42-T.Holt). P20
1-10-HST 41 (2:53) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to HST 47 for 6 yards (54-T.Lehman). DET #96-Hall injured on play.
2-4-HST 47 (2:33) 37-D.Davis up the middle to DET 48 for 5 yards (59-A.Lewis). R21
1-10-DET 48 (2:14) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr sacked at HST 44 for -8 yards (94-M.Bell).
2-18-HST 44 (2:01) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
Two-Minute Warning
3-18-HST 44 (1:56) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong pushed ob at DET 45 for 11 yards (59-A.Lewis).
4-7-DET 45 (1:47) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to DET 34 for 11 yards (25-F.Bryant; 59-A.Lewis). P22
1-10-DET 34 (1:21) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
2-10-DET 34 (1:19) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr right end ran ob at DET 23 for 11 yards (28-Bracy Walker). R23
1-10-DET 23 (1:13) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 88-D.Armstrong.
2-10-DET 23 (1:09) 8-D.Carr pass to 80-A.Johnson to DET 15 for 8 yards (31-B.Marion).
Timeout #1 by HST at 01:03.
3-2-DET 15 (1:03) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DET-92-S.Rogers, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at DET 15 - No Play. X24
1-10-DET 10 (1:03) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
2-10-DET 10 (:58) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr sacked at DET 17 for -7 yards (96-J.Hall).
Timeout #2 by HST at 00:50.
3-17-DET 17 (:50) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to DET 5 for 12 yards (54-T.Lehman; 26-R.Babers).
Timeout #3 by HST at 00:42.
4-5-DET 5 (:42) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr up the middle to DET 1 for 4 yards (94-M.Bell).

Infantrycak, I will grant you his raw stats improved but we had the ball two times in the 4th quarter and only scored on a blown coverage. The last drive was a ton of gimmie passes and we still didn't get the TD to give us a shot to win it.

The real impressive drive was Harrington's drive at 12:20 to ice the game and leave us with 4:20 and a two score margin. Carr then drove the field against a soft zone and didn't puch it in while Harrington drove the field and threw a TD pass to Williams to ice the game against a defense that was not in a soft prevent defense.

Detroit Lions at 12:20, (1st play from scrimmage 12:13)
1-10-DET 20 (12:13) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to DET 24 for 4 yards (56-J.Foreman).
2-6-DET 24 (11:33) 3-J.Harrington pass to 11-R.Williams to DET 32 for 8 yards (23-D.Robinson). P14
1-10-DET 32 (10:57) 3-J.Harrington pass to 84-T.Streets to DET 36 for 4 yards (23-D.Robinson, 52-K.Wong).
2-6-DET 36 (10:17) 3-J.Harrington pass to 34-K.Jones to DET 49 for 13 yards (26-G.Earl). P15
1-10-DET 49 (9:30) 34-K.Jones left end to DET 46 for -3 yards (56-J.Foreman).
2-13-DET 46 (8:46) 3-J.Harrington pass incomplete to 30-C.Schlesinger (99-R.Smith).
3-13-DET 46 (8:40) (Shotgun) 3-J.Harrington pass to 84-T.Streets ran ob at HST 37 for 17 yards. P16
1-10-HST 37 (8:10) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to HST 33 for 4 yards (91-S.Payne).
2-6-HST 33 (7:25) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DET-73-S.McDougle, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at HST 33 - No Play.
2-11-HST 38 (7:04) 3-J.Harrington right end to HST 33 for 5 yards (55-J.Sharper).
3-6-HST 33 (6:16) 3-J.Harrington pass to 81-A.Hakim to HST 19 for 14 yards (42-M.Coleman). P17
1-10-HST 19 (5:29) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to HST 14 for 5 yards (52-K.Wong).
2-5-HST 14 (4:48) 3-J.Harrington pass to 11-R.Williams for 14 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P18
4-J.Hanson extra point is GOOD, Center-57-J.Littleton, Holder-2-N.Harris.

You can also note that once we got to the 23 yard line in our last possession we had seven shots at trying to score a TD and came up with air.

 

[Carr Bombed]

Carr is a better QB than Johnson will ever be, but they do share some traits. I have confidence Carr will do a better job with the rush as he evolves, but I'm not in denial that he has things to work on like most of you guys.

Ive never sated that Carr has arrived, Ive simply stated that hes gotten alot better and will continue to get better and mature as the team gets better and mature around him. Also don't be in denial about the line play right now its really starting to scare me. BTW how many times has Carr been sacked this year

 

[DoCt3rJ]

Look, David Carr is still maturing. I still expect him to throw as many TD's as INT's. Im just hoping for more touchdowns this year, more yards, and a higher completion perecentage. Now, if hes still doin this stuff at his 7th year, maybe you can speculate, but untill then you can't.

 

[wags]

Vinny, please. Let's give Carr credit for stepping up in the pocket and spotting that busted coverage. Let's not discredit that TD. I'm sure many QB's enjoy taking advantage of busted coverage, and still count those as legit TD's. Also, didn't Carr hit AJ for a sideline bomb, only to get jobbed by the refs. That would have put us inside the five, and more than likely would have led to a TD.

 

[Vinny]

Ive never sated that Carr has arrived, Ive simply stated that hes gotten alot better and will continue to get better and mature as the team gets better and mature around him. Also don't be in denial about the line play right now its really starting to scare me. BTW how many times has Carr been sacked this year

Look, you are a Carr apologist and a big fan of the dude so that's all cool. I break down what I see and I'm not overly impressed to date although I feel much better about him today than I did a year ago. Perhaps you are right and I am wrong. You keep apologizing for our lack of TD's and I will continue to post what I see in real time. To me, I see that most of your posturing is about what he is going to do one day and most of my posts are about what he is doing right now. I just tend to break down what I see more than gloss about what we may become.

It’s a team game and I realize that Carr needs help. I just wish I had ONE game where he had great drives to win a game for us with his arm. If I had a couple of games where he totally takes over the game and puts the team on his back I’d probably be less cynical about the guy’s upside.

 

[Carr Bombed]

A td is a td, I expect a good qb to take full advantage blown coverage that what he is supposed to do. Also if you want to nick pick situation what about the blown call on the AJ pass. That was in double coverage and not a gimmie pass and could of set up a 3rd td. The point is I really don't know why we're talking about this. David didn't lose us the game, he played good and had a good game. Our defense, special teams, and excessive turnovers cost us the game.

 

[Vinny]

A td is a td, I expect a good qb to take full advantage blown coverage that what he is supposed to do. Also if you want to nick pick situation what about the blown call on the AJ pass. That was in double coverage and not a gimmie pass and could of set up a 3rd td. The point is I really don't know why we're talking about this. David didn't lose us the game, he played good and had a good game. Our defense, special teams, and excessive turnovers cost us the game.

I know why we are talking about him.....because you guys tend to blame the coaches and the line and give Carr a free pass.

Like I said...you may be right. Carry on. It's all good.

 

[Carr Bombed]

In other words there are bigger fish to fry right now. Also Im not a "Carr" fan I'm a fan of this team. I just very patient and I know it takes time to develop a quarterback especialy one that was put in the circumstances that he was. I'm not out there saying Carr is a Probowler right now. I'm just stating that hes playing better this year and I'm happy with his play this season and I'm excited to see how much he'll grow over the course of this season.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I know why we are talking about him.....because you guys tend to blame the coaches and the line and give Carr a free pass.

Like I said...you may be right. Carry on. It's all good.

I not giving him a free pass its more of a "grace" period that ends at the end of this year. Look if he doesn't make significant improvement I'll be the first one to start questioning, but as of right now its just to soon. Second on blaming the coaches alot of people tend to do that after two disapointing losses. I'll admit I was a little hard on them but I was pissed and needed to vent. Although there were some questionable calls in that game.

 

[Vinny]

true dat.

You make solid points. I think that I am a bit on the fringe as it pertains to this topic but I thought we needed a minority view on this and I don't mind being the bad guy.

 

[Carr Bombed]

I enjoy any debate good or bad especialy when you get both sides of it. Just wish those damn texans can scratch out a win and a streak at that so this board won't be so negative. I'm tire of talking about losing. Well it was good chating with you, got to go paint my living room now damn I hate painting.

 

[edo783]

Don't worry about Vinny. He is just part of that Fringe element we hear the news people talk about. :-)

 

[cuppacoffee]

Herv- I didn't need to read the items again, it was too much of the coulda, shoulda, woulda game. Yes, TO change games, but they are part of the game. Same as ST's. The better teams excel at not turning the ball over, capitalizing on TO's, and playing better ST's, Nuff Said.

Bet it aint.