The Texans a run-first team, I think not!

[infantrycak]

So one year when QB 1 & 2 go down along with WR 1 defines a team?

2010 - 19th in rushing attempts
2009 - 20th
2008 - 13th
2007 - 22nd

What was Kubiak's earliest big off-season move? 2 2nds and $50 mil for a QB.

 

[beerlover]

Kubiak uses the pass to establish running game (clock management) shorten the game & keep defense fresh.

 

[Rey]

For his tenure, the Texans run/pass count in the 10 games with Schaub was plus 19 in favor of the pass (in first halves of games.)

The rushing attempt numbers included runs to close out the half (to kill the clock and not to execute the true game plan.)

Why do you keep ignoring people acknowledging that we have passed the ball a lot in the past, but most people seem to think it was out of necessity rather than by design.

You can point to Yates being the cause of that all you want, but Yates threw the ball quite a bit. Not a whole lot less than schaub in his full game starts.

And that aside, schaubs passing attempts were down.

 

[76Texan]

Why do you keep ignoring people acknowledging that we have passed the ball a lot in the past, but most people seem to think it was out of necessity rather than by design.

You can point to Yates being the cause of that all you want, but Yates threw the ball quite a bit. Not a whole lot less than schaub in his full game starts.

And that aside, schaubs passing attempts were down.

I agreed with you on a few points.

I wasn't among those who "ignore" the things that make sense.

If I was to look at the games in 2010, for example, I would take into account the same things. In the past, the Texans were behind in several games and had to open the passing game. I never disagree with that.

But I'm not looking at the past.

I never said that the Texans had to resort to running the ball more with Yates either.

 

[beerlover]

You have to be flexible. Healthy Andre/Foster = balanced attack but how many times have they been 100%? About the only thing stable is Defense since Wade became DC. So Kubiak must game plan accordingly, there is no right or wrong.

 

[Mari-OWNED!]

You can throw around numbers all you want, but it is obvious that the Texans' offensive game plan is to establish their running game first to get opposing defenses to bite on the play-action pass.

 

[ObsiWan]

We rush 52.20% of the time. Which is pretty close to balanced.

BUT. Only 1 team rushed for a higher percentage of the time than we did: The Denver Broncos @ 53.69% of the time.

The Niners rushed 50.15% of the time.

The "average" was rushing 42.91% of the time.

The Detroit Lions rushed the least at 33.65% of the time.

This is where a definition is in order.
Strictly percentage wise - just over 50% - I'd say we're balanced.
However, compared to the rest of the league we're more run-oriented. Which is what TPN is pointing out.

I don't care what strategy we use as long as that strategy leads to mucho points.

 

[infantrycak]

This is where a definition is in order.

Not really because there will never be an agreement on one. So you have been building a team for 6 years and have been at the top of the league in rushing attempts for one year even though you have been a top passing team for years - so now you are a rushing team, that was the design all along. No.

We are a WCO team (which is typically described as a passing offense). We try to make things look the same and then call plays as necessary to the down and distance and game situation. To me that is the definition of trying to build a balanced offense. We are not an air it out all the time team. We are also not a run it down your gut team We beat down TN in 2010 20 to nothing. Arian had 30 carries at 4.8 ypc. Schaub had 35 passing attempts. Schaub had 2 TD's that day, Arian none. We are balanced attack. It is the whole point of the WCO.

Let me do it another way. There are teams you look at and say it is 3rd and 2 they will pass and then other teams you say exactly the opposite. Those are the oriented teams in my book. Nobody knows if the Texans will run or pass in just about any situation.

 

[thunderkyss]

Kubiak uses the pass to establish running game (clock management) shorten the game & keep defense fresh.

I'm thrilled that this conversation is still going on. Gotta love the offseason.

But, I remember a time not too long ago, people on this board were begging Kubiak to throw the ball & stop relying on the likes of Ron Dayne & Achmandinajad (sp or whatever his name was).

I remember a home game vs Miami, Ron Dayne ran for 44 yards on 49 carries (I'm exagerating) but we won the game because Mario Williams tipped a pass to seal the win (& Miami sucked worse than we did).

I don't have a dog in this race, I don't think we use the pass to set up the run or the run to set up the pass. We're just bad motherF@#rs & the other team doesn't know what to expect.

 

[Goatcheese]

You can throw around numbers all you want, but it is obvious that the Texans' offensive game plan is to establish their running game first to get opposing defenses to bite on the play-action pass.

I posted this in another thread but it fits just as well here.

The Texans pass 55% more often than they run when they don't have a two score lead.

 

[TejasTom]

...
We are a WCO team (which is typically described as a passing offense). We try to make things look the same and then call plays as necessary to the down and distance and game situation. To me that is the definition of trying to build a balanced offense...

To expand on this, here is a snipet from a WCO playbook.

Our offense is a system, with the running game and passing game complimenting each other. We will run and pass from all personnel groupings and formations. Runs will set up passes, and passes will set up runs. It is an entire system, and entire offensive philosophy, not just a running or passing philosophy.

 

[thunderkyss]

to expand on this, here is a snipet from a wco playbook.

our offense is a system, with the running game and passing game complimenting each other. We will run and pass from all personnel groupings and formations. Runs will set up passes, and passes will set up runs. It is an entire system, and entire offensive philosophy, not just a running or passing philosophy.

msr

 

[ObsiWan]

To expand on this, here is a snipet from a WCO playbook.

Quote:
Our offense is a system, with the running game and passing game complimenting each other. We will run and pass from all personnel groupings and formations. Runs will set up passes, and passes will set up runs. It is an entire system, and entire offensive philosophy, not just a running or passing philosophy.

/thread

 

[ObsiWan]

msr

I got him.

 

[GP]

Quote:
Our offense is a system, with the running game and passing game complimenting each other. We will run and pass from all personnel groupings and formations. Runs will set up passes, and passes will set up runs. It is an entire system, and entire offensive philosophy, not just a running or passing philosophy.

/thread

I'll shake hands on that.

But the run game is the dominant factor. The forward pass was not implemented until well into the life of football.

Running the ball is the central component to football and always will be. Passing the ball is an enhancement.

There's a reason why indoor leagues, pass happy leagues, do not have the fan following that NFL does. The reason is the run game.

 

[b0ng]

I'll shake hands on that.

But the run game is the dominant factor. The forward pass was not implemented until well into the life of football.

Running the ball is the central component to football and always will be. Passing the ball is an enhancement.

There's a reason why indoor leagues, pass happy leagues, do not have the fan following that NFL does. The reason is the run game.

You're a bit off if you think that's how football currently is. More and more teams are passing teams (Almost exclusively now), and teams that run the ball, while good, are always a step short.

That last paragraph is just an off the cuff remark that really has no data backing that up, and therefore, shouldn't be taken seriously in any way shape or form.

 

[GP]

You're a bit off if you think that's how football currently is. More and more teams are passing teams (Almost exclusively now), and teams that run the ball, while good, are always a step short.

That last paragraph is just an off the cuff remark that really has no data backing that up, and therefore, shouldn't be taken seriously in any way shape or form.

The essence of football has always been what you do with the ball.

To this end, there is nothing as exciting and amazing as a run play that features two forces (o-line and d-line) crashing into one another and the chance of a RB escaping out of the mayhem by breaking tackles and making moves to evade tacklers.

Conversely, there is nothing as exciting as a d-line and LB crew obliterating a run play on 3rd and short or on the goal line.

There's a reason 90% of the 22 players on the field are concentrated in one area near the center...because that's the front lines of warfare. The trenches.

The pass is also a crucial aspect, and "yes" there can be exciting pass plays and iconic moments in it as well.

I just think the game of football, even when we look at rugby, it's about running the ball and stopping the runner. In its purest form, IMO.

Just my little opinion, that's all.

 

[kwayshauntay]

So let's settle this once and for all. Are we a run-first team or not?

 

[kwayshauntay]

In today's NFL we are considered a running team.

The end.

Overall, we are balanced. But comparatively speaking we like to run the ball a lot.

Not really sure why folks can't admit that.

Oh wait, yeah I do...

I can think of some, but just curious what you think those reason are. Let's hear 'em!

 

[Texn4life]

I can think of some, but just curious what you think those reason are. Let's hear 'em!

I'll post this hear again so your brain can absorb it.

1st half stats this year

Schaub: 43 pass attempts (This doesn't include any sacks which would be 2 more attempts)
Foster/Tate: 32 combined carries

I would say a 43 to 32 ratio doesn't indicate that we're a "running" or run first team.

 

[kwayshauntay]

I'll post this hear again so your brain can absorb it.

1st half stats this year

Schaub: 43 pass attempts (This doesn't include any sacks which would be 2 more attempts)
Foster/Tate: 32 combined carries

I would say a 43 to 32 ratio doesn't indicate that we're a "running" or run first team.

Compare that to the rest of the league and let's talk. I'm not saying I know the answer to that, I really want to know. How does the rest of the league stack up when you apply the same rationalizations to them that you are applying to the Texans?

 

[Texn4life]

Compare that to the rest of the league and let's talk. I'm not saying I know the answer to that, I really want to know. How does the rest of the league stack up when you apply the same rationalizations to them that you are applying to the Texans?

Posting from my phone I'm not going to look at that right now, but you said we're a ground and pound team and now you want comparisons. I showed you that we're not some old school, throw back team.

Edit: Since we were comparing the 49ers to us I'll give you that one. 31 pass attempts to 26 rushing attempts.

49ers 1st half running percentage: 45.6%
Texans 1st half running percentage: 42.6%

Lookie there...... Just looked up one team and another team is already more run heavy than us when they're trying to establish their identity. You can look up the rest of the teams if you'd like. I rest my case.

 

[kwayshauntay]

Posting from my phone I'm not going to look at that right now, but you said we're a ground and pound team and now you want comparisons. I showed you that we're not some old school, throw back team.

Here's what I said:

we are now the most old-school, throwback, smash-mouth team in the league.

We ran the ball more than anyone else in the league. This is a fact. If you rationalize it like you've been doing, well you can apply those same rationalizations to the other 31 teams in the league, and the end result would be this: we ran the ball more than anyone else in the league.

 

[Texn4life]

Here's what I said:



We ran the ball more than anyone else in the league. This is a fact. If you rationalize it like you've been doing, well you can apply those same rationalizations to the other 31 teams in the league, and the end result would be this: we ran the ball more than anyone else in the league.

 

[DBCooper]

The beauty of this team is that our defense is keeping the other team out of it and allowing our offense to sit on a lead and run the ball and we are capable of actually running the ball.

Does it really matter if we run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run?

Just Win baby!

 

[Rey]

49ers 1st half running percentage: 45.6%
Texans 1st half running percentage: 42.6%

Lookie there...... Just looked up one team and another team is already more run heavy than us when they're trying to establish their identity. You can look up the rest of the teams if you'd like. I rest my case.

Just curious, but would you call the 49'ers a running team or passing team?

The 49'ers run the ball 3 whole percent more than we do and they still run it less than they pass. Are they a passing team in your opinion?

 

[Rey]

The numbers are skewed at this point in the season. We have two blow out wins and accordingly have the most rushes in the NFL by a pretty big margin.

IMO, by today's NFL standards we are considered a running team. In a vacuum I'd say we are balanced leaning a little more towards the pass, but we don't live in a vacuum.

If we had this same ratio of run to pass 40 years ago we'd definitely be considered a passing team. But in a league where you have so many teams throwing so often, we are one of the teams in the NFL that stays committed to the run.

 

[Texn4life]

Just curious, but would you call the 49'ers a running team or passing team?

I would say they're balanced. In the past they were much more reliant on Frank Gore, but they have shown a lot more confidence in Alex Smith. The reason people are so much higher on the 49ers this year is because they're more balanced than they have been in the past.

 

[Texn4life]

The numbers are skewed at this point in the season. We have two blow out wins and accordingly have the most rushes in the NFL by a pretty big margin.

IMO, by today's NFL standards we are considered a running team. In a vacuum I'd say we are balanced leaning a little more towards the pass, but we don't live in a vacuum.

If we had this same ratio of run to pass 40 years ago we'd definitely be considered a passing team. But in a league where you have so many teams throwing so often, we are one of the teams in the NFL that stays committed to the run.

This was my point to him that carried on from the Power Rankings thread. I'm showing him exactly why our overall numbers this year don't reflect how balanced we really are. Schaub has 5 pass attempts in the 4th qtr this year. He'll probably equal or exceed that on Sunday. The numbers are going to be skewed when you're playing with leads and have 2 good backs. There is no reason to pass the ball all the time as opposed to a team like Green Bay that doesn't have a consistent running game.

My point to him was all of the numbers last year were a reflection of a lot of things. Not taking all of those things into account is foolish to me. To me they are numbers that fantasy geeks will point to and say "look, we ran the ball a lot". But are you really understanding why we did? I know you do, but not everyone does.

 

[kwayshauntay]

Posting from my phone I'm not going to look at that right now, but you said we're a ground and pound team and now you want comparisons. I showed you that we're not some old school, throw back team.

Edit: Since we were comparing the 49ers to us I'll give you that one. 31 pass attempts to 26 rushing attempts.

49ers 1st half running percentage: 45.6%
Texans 1st half running percentage: 42.6%

Lookie there...... Just looked up one team and another team is already more run heavy than us when they're trying to establish their identity. You can look up the rest of the teams if you'd like. I rest my case.

Your numbers are off. Including sacks (Smith has been sacked two times total in 1st halves), the 49ers have had 37 1st half pass attempts so far this season. Care to recalculate?

 

[Texn4life]

Your numbers are off. Including sacks (Smith has been sacked two times total in 1st halves), the 49ers have had 37 1st half pass attempts so far this season. Care to recalculate?

ESPN shows the 49ers are 19 for 31 in pass attempts in the first half. I'm not including sacks if you would have paid attention to my Texans first half statistics, but even if you added in the 2 sacks it still wouldn't equal to 37. So if you have more accurate stats you need to take that up with ESPN. Therefore, no recalculations needed on my end. If you're going to try to correct someone you may want to try to post a link.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/splits/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers

 

[infantrycak]

Therefore, no recalculations needed on my end. If you're going to try to correct someone you may want to try to post a link.

For that matter, he should do his own calculations.

 

[kwayshauntay]

ESPN shows the 49ers are 19 for 31 in pass attempts in the first half. I'm not including sacks if you would have paid attention to my Texans first half statistics, but even if you added in the 2 sacks it still wouldn't equal to 37. So if you have more accurate stats you need to take that up with ESPN. Therefore, no recalculations needed on my end. If you're going to try to correct someone you may want to try to post a link.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/splits/_/name/sf/san-francisco-49ers

Forget ESPN. Just look at the play by play.

26 runs/(26 runs + 37 pass plays including sacks) = 41.3% of the 49ers plays in the 1st half have been runs

Texans in 1st halves this season have had 41.8% running plays.

Just a reminder that YOU brought up the 49ers' run/pass ratio in 1st halves, not me.

 

[Texn4life]

Forget ESPN. Just look at the play by play.

26 runs/(26 runs + 37 pass plays including sacks) = 41.3% of the 49ers plays in the 1st half have been runs

Texans in 1st halves this season have had 41.8% running plays.

Just a reminder that YOU brought up the 49ers' run/pass ratio in 1st halves, not me.

I'm looking at the raw numbers. It's subjective by looking at those 4 missing plays that you're including in your passing numbers because who's to say they weren't designed QB draws? I'm taking all of that out of the equation and simply including Attempts. Both teams have 2 first half sacks so eliminate that as well and it's a much easier comparison with no judgment involved. And you still have provided no link as to where you're pulling this from.

Even with your flawed subjective stats you see where the Texans pass the ball more in the first half clearly. Far cry from a run heavy "ground and pound" team.

 

[kwayshauntay]

I'm looking at the raw numbers. It's objective by looking at those 4 missing plays that you're including in your passing numbers because who's to say they weren't designed QB draws? I'm taking all of that out of the equation and simply including Attempts. Both teams have 2 first half sacks so eliminate that as well and it's a much easier comparison with no judgment involved. And you still have provided no link as to where you're pulling this from.

Even with your flawed objective stats you see where the Texans pass the ball more in the first half clearly. Far cry from a run heavy "ground and pound" team.

links to play by play i used to chase down your red herring:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090gnb.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209160sfo.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090htx.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209160jax.htm

 

[infantrycak]

Grid said it best:

We could run the ball 100 times in every game this season, and would still be a "balanced" team.

That may sound silly..but it is kinda a "do as I say, not as I do" scenario. Our philosophy, or identity, is balance. We can pass the ball just as well as we can run the ball. But running the ball is usually a better option for us because we have the lead, and running it is both safer, and runs the clock out.

The reason we are a balanced team is not because we strictly adhere to having an equal amount of running and passing plays every game. We are balanced because we will either run it, or pass it, and do either one equally well. It all depends on what is more strategically viable in that game.

 

[Texn4life]

links to play by play i used to chase down your red herring:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090gnb.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209160sfo.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209090htx.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201209160jax.htm

So let's see here...... You say that San Francisco has run 37 pass plays in the first half. Alex Smith has 31 attempts and been sacked twice. That's 33 plays. Let's just say that Smith dropped back to pass once and took off to run since he has 1 carry for 5 yards in the first half this year. That still leaves 34 pass plays. Where are these 3 magical passing plays that are missing?

 

[Texn4life]

Grid said it best:

I agree, and I'm not saying we're run heavy or pass heavy. The thing I love about the Texans is we do have the ability to do both and do them effectively. Schaub has shown on multiple occasions he can win putting the ball in the air 40 plus times. There are some games this year where he'll probably have to do it and I have complete confidence in him. My point was against this notion that we're some 1970's reincarnation of a team that's pounding away at people all game. That's simply not true. We have a similar blueprint to the old Broncos team that won 2 Super Bowls. They exemplified balance.

 

[76Texan]

IMO, we should take out all the short passes (dink-and-dunks) to compare the phillosophy of a team.

A team may run the spread and throw a bunch of short passes that are just extension of the run game should not be considered as a pass-oriented team.
If anything, it's in name only.

For example, read this from the Falcons forums.
Their fans want the team to move to a WCO because they are tired of the dink-and-dunks in their passing game:

Next, look at these data that shows Schaub with 21.6% on deep attempts last year, while Yates was at 21.7%

Compare that with Brady 18.6%, Cutler 18.2%, and Brees at 17.6%, and you can see that the distinction between them and us becoming very blurry.

There are a host of other names on that list that should be familiar.

Also, there are plenty of teams that ran the WCO (even though everything aren't equal) like the Packers, the Eagles, the Niners, the Chiefs, the Cardinals, the Browns, and of course the Redskins.

Turner's Bears offense is also derived from the WCO as many other in the league today.

The Colts are now running the WCO; so do the Raiders.

It seems that at least half the league is running the WCO, so how can we say that the Texans are a run-first team?

And then many of the spread teams the spread are dinking-and-dunking plenty.
Who's to say that we're lacking in the passing game as compared to them?

 

[76Texan]

And here's a half-way extensive study that I made, using Game Rewind with the according game books for the first two games:

Texans:

First game:
13 running plays.
19 pass attempts + 1 QB scramble + 2 sacks = 22 passing plays

Second game:
19 running plays
24 passing plays.

Total 32 run plays, and 46 pass plays
(32/78= 41.03%)

 

[76Texan]

Next, I will show the teams with a higher rushing attempt percentage than us.

Cardinals:
11 rushes + 1 reverse = 12 run plays
17 pass plays

11 rushes + 1 QB sneak + 1 designed QB draw + 1 wildcat run by Patrick Peterson = 14 run plays
15 pass attempts + 1 sack + 1 scramble = 17 pass plays

Total 26 run plays, 34 pass plays
(43.33%)

 

[76Texan]

Bills:

9 run plays
12 pass attempts + 1 scramble = 13 pass plays
(I do not count a kneel down to end the half).

15 run plays
12 pass attempts + 3 scrambles = 15 pass plays
(Another kneel down that does not count.)

Total 24 run plays, 28 pass plays (46.15%)

 

[76Texan]

Broncos:

15 runs (including a confusion on hand-off exchange that the QB ended up keeping the ball).
19 pass attempts + 1 sack = 20 pass plays

12 runs.
14 pass attempts + 2 sacks + 1 scramble = 17 pass plays

Total 27 run plays, 37 pass plays (42.19%)

 

[76Texan]

Lions:

16 runs
16 pass attempts
1 kneel down that does not count

13 runs
24 passes

Total 29 runs, 40 pass plays (42.02%)

 

[76Texan]

Jacksonville

17 runs
16 pass attempts + 2 scrambles = 18 pass plays

9 runs
11 pass attempts + 1 scramble+ 2 sacks = 14 pass plays.

Total 26 runs, 32 pass plays (44.83%)

 

[76Texan]

Dolphins

15 runs
18 pass attempts + 1 sack = 19 pass plays
One kneel down that does not count.

Note - There's also a QB fumble as he tripped on his O-lineman.
It is unclear how the play will develop from the Offset I formation.
I did not include this play.

15 runs + 1 designed QB run (for a TD by Tannerhill)
19 pass attempts + 1 sack + 1 scramble = 21 pass plays
Another kneel down that does not count.

Total 31 runs, 40 pass plays (43.66%)

 

[76Texan]

Other teams that I noted so far:

Chiefs 25-32 (43.86%)

Vikings 26-26 (50%)

Pats 29-30 (49.15%)

Jets 32-32 (50%)

Steelers 28-34 (45.16%)

Seahawks 26-28 (48.15%)

Niners 25-34 (42.37%)

Redskins 32-28 (51.72%)

I think there are a few more, but those are enough to show that the Texans have not been run-first like many people think.

 

[mokalus]

I don't care if we designate the Texans as a run-first or pass-first team; all I know is that the team's ability to run sets up the pass AND vice versa. I absolutely LOVED the playcalling to start the Jaguars game. IIRC, it was 5 straight play-actions that got us a chunk of yardage. We didn't get a huge play downfield due to their almost-prevent defense, but it's awesome cheering for a team that is balanced enough to be able to beat you both on the ground and in the air.

 

[HJam72]

We run a lot when we have a lead. Kubiak likes to control the clock, which is effective in many ways and a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

He generally likes to run more anyway, but we start out doing whatever he thinks will work.

We are not (necessarily) a run first team; we are a run LAST team. Score any way you can, get a lead, and then run and burn clock (which doesn't necessarily negate scoring more).

 

[Texn4life]

I personally don't care how we win. If we win then we win. In 2002 the Texans were outgained 422-47, the fewest yards ever by a winning team in NFL history against Pittsburgh and won 24-6. Wasn't pretty by any stretch of the imagination, but I was still happy that day.

The MO from Kubiak is clear in my view. He loves to attack early and try to jump out on teams to get a lead. It's served us pretty well the last 18 games. If we're running for 150-200 yards in any game then I'd say there's a good chance we got out to an early lead. I liken it to a basketball team like Duke who will full court press early in games to get out to a big league, and then start to sit back in a half court defense in the 2nd half half. But Duke has it in them to keep the pressure up all game just like we have that capability. These next 5 games will show that. Most of these games are going to be close and Schaub will be a much bigger factor.