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The double standard of the NFL
- Thread starter Joe Texan
- Start date
brakos82
Yaters Gonna Yate.
I think you can move as much as you want (except OL) as long as the players are set for at least 1 second before the snap.
Then again, I don't have a rule book.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
Back when I was a kid playing, I was taught that as soon as you put your hand down, you weren't allowed to move or it was a false start. I'd have to check, but I don't know if that rule has changed or if the Colts line is moving before putting their hands down and being "set".
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
This has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Peyton often gets fully set, starts his cadence and then backs out and all the sudden people are moving everywhere. We've seen examples where Schaub gets under center and Kevin Walter twitches his heal alignment and it is a false start. Teams should be sending the worst examples into the league each week until the refs do something about it.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
I totally noticed this today and was wondering what the hell was going on and why there wasn't some sort of false start penalty or illegal motion like JT mentioned. The lineman were getting set and doing all sorts of stuff while communicating to one another. How are they able to do this all of the time?
Texan4Ever
All Pro
I think your're right about being set for at least a second. There was a penalty on the Colts when one of the players just kept moving without setting and he was penalized.
toronto
Hall of Fame
This goes back a lot further than the Colts....
I still remember when the Cowboy offensive line would essentially rise in unision and all false start every play and it was never called, despite the fact that it threw the DL's timing off often.
You see the same shifting in many Pat games, Brees/Saints games as well as Steeler games when Big Ben is under center. Its maddening but they let it happen.
brakos82
Yaters Gonna Yate.
It's more of an old-school thing really... if you watch the Steel Curtain era Steelers, they'll get in a half-crouch stance until just before the ball's snapped, go down into the 3-point stance, and hike the ball. From what I've seen several teams did this back in the 70s and early 80s.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The thing I think folks are complaining about here is the opposite - getting set and then moving, not that they move before getting set. I don't care if they mill around aimlessly until there is 1 second, get set and then play. What I don't think is called correctly is when they run up to the line with 30 seconds on the clock, get fully set and all the sudden Manning backs out and the OL is all moving to turn around and listen to him, receivers are running in to talk to him, etc. And they know they aren't supposed to be moving. Notice that the OLmen never lift their hand. It's like this bizarre Colts rule where as long as Manning is barking they can move but any other OL has a guy begin to dip a shoulder and it's false start. Teams need to demand an explanation and if the NFL wants to call that fair then start game planning to do the same thing.
Hervoyel
BUENO!
Yeah but that Cowboy thing, that was frickin cool.
Not a Cowboy fan but I thought that was sweet. I'd like to see a team do that today but I think it would look stupid if anyone did it but the Cowboys and these Cowboys just don't seem like.... "The Cowboys" to me so maybe it should just stay in the grave.
It was cool though. Did I mention that I thought it was cool?
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
But, see, those guys weren't set. They walked up, leaned over with their hands on their knees or thighs, then stood up in unison and then put their hands down into a "set" position. If a lineman hasn't put his hand on the ground, he can move around but if he puts his hand on the ground, then he's not supposed to be able to move... at least according to my understanding of the rule... and my understanding apparently has some problem.
Dutchrudder
Hall of Fame
I recall Texas Tech started doing this a few years ago. They never set their hand on the ground which allowed them to swivel and move prior to the snap. It was very frustrating to watch, but legal in NCAA ball.
The main thing is you can simulate the snap, but their linemen are jerking around and constantly moving. It is 100% a double standard. I hate that they let him do this cause its him.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
The QB does not have to say set. The player only has to become set and the Colts constantly set and then come out.
Here are the rules:
Here's another rule the Colt's routinely violate:
Watch and see how often everyone, particularly Manning, are not set for a full second after he pulls the chicken dance.
Fred
Veteran
# No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.
# No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started.
A lot of times the Colts never assume a three-point stance, only a two-point stance. But the second item covers that. Maybe the argument is the manner in which they are listening to his highness doesn't lead the defense to believe snap has started. I say B.S. to that. The next time one of those goobers takes a two point set and then turns his head toward Peyton the defensive line needs to blast him into last week. The defense can say "hey, led me to believe snap had started. The rule is about my belief, not if it is reasonable."
Maybe after getting blasted about 20 times and penalized 100 yards they would stop. I think some D Coordinator needs to man up and force the officials hand on this. If the guy was set, even in a two-point stance and then moves, no way they should call the penalty on the defense so hit the man and force them to call something.
# No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started.
A lot of times the Colts never assume a three-point stance, only a two-point stance. But the second item covers that. Maybe the argument is the manner in which they are listening to his highness doesn't lead the defense to believe snap has started. I say B.S. to that. The next time one of those goobers takes a two point set and then turns his head toward Peyton the defensive line needs to blast him into last week. The defense can say "hey, led me to believe snap had started. The rule is about my belief, not if it is reasonable."
Maybe after getting blasted about 20 times and penalized 100 yards they would stop. I think some D Coordinator needs to man up and force the officials hand on this. If the guy was set, even in a two-point stance and then moves, no way they should call the penalty on the defense so hit the man and force them to call something.
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
I want to thank yall for all the responses, This has been a Pet Peeve of mine beeing Payaton Manning is considered the best that there ever was. Don't get me wrong I know he is genuis, I just think he has had an edge that teeters on the side of Cheating and because it is him he gets away with it. I will guarantee that if Matt steps up to the line and says ''BLUE 42' while the lineman place thier hands on thier knees, then Matt runs up to the line yelling ""hey Eric, Knock Freeny out of then play" and all the line and Andre and Jacoby and Arian start moving around to pretend to hear what Matt is saying, It would result in a False Start and The Colts do this 60 time a game and do not get a call.
Manning has always been the type of players to flirt with the line in order to exploit the rules to his advantage.
He's great, no doubt about it. But its a tough line to draw between innovative and exploitation. Sometimes I think Manning lies on the exploitation side a little too often.
He's great, no doubt about it. But its a tough line to draw between innovative and exploitation. Sometimes I think Manning lies on the exploitation side a little too often.
Maybe if the defense jumps when the Colts are shifting then they may call that in favor of the Texans.
But just reading that, I don't see any rules being broken by the Colts. You could argue that when any team sends a player in motion it could entice a defense to jump off sides. But no one ever does it, so it's obviously not as enticing as many people think.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
What I would like the NFL to explain is how is all of the offensive line movement by the Colts legal? How can they be in their stance and then constantly move about, lift up, etc.. without false start being called? They move their heads, shift their hips and even lift out of their stance. Happens the entire game whether Manning is under center or in the shotgun. Dont tell me it doesnt seriously slow down defensive lines accounting for at least some of the Colts success on offense. If you watch Manning when he's in the shotgun, how in the heck can he sometimes take two steps forward (and sometimes back) before the ball is snapped and not get called for a false start?
During the Colts game, I dont know how many times I was ready to come through the TV.
During the Colts game, I dont know how many times I was ready to come through the TV.
Pantherstang84
@rolisrgti06
The short answer is yes. There are rules that apply to the Colts and then rules that apply to everyone else.
Wolf
100% Texan
Joe was wondering about this also
guess instead of the "Jordan rules" it is the "Manning rules"
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75261
guess instead of the "Jordan rules" it is the "Manning rules"
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75261
TimeKiller
Guest
I thought it was awesome when the Texans showed that movement up front. They scared the OL and Manning didn't seem to like it either. Don't tell me it isn't a little intense when Mario Williams is bouncing around...plus the more attention he draws the more guys like Okoye and Smith get through. Now, this was Manning...the big time guy...how will lesser QBs fare against this defense? I want to know.
Gonna be very interesting. Neither of the qb's tonite (both of whom we play later) look very good tonite.
Texecutioner
Hall of Fame
Well this is the 2nd thread on this and I have yet to see where anyone has come up with any reasoning or rules that explain what Manning or his O line does to make all of this legal. So, at this point what do the Texans and other teams do about this? We play them twice a year and they are in our division. At this point this needs to be addressed to the league office by the Texans and other teams or maybe us fans should send in some sort of correspondence on this, unless none of us know what the hell we're talking about here, but we seem to all agree on this and that hardly ever happens on this site. The NFL needs to put a stop to it though, that's for sure. That is if we are all correct in what we're observing.
Joe Texan
Inducted 04
yea I heard it on 610 but the question to Kubes should have been the illegal motion question, seems this guy who called in was talking of the guard tapping the center. Not the question we are debating. even the tapping should be addressed. cause they said that Saturday was coming of and injury and could not communicate with Payaton. If Meyers could not communicate with Matt we would put another center in. I have a feeling the Colts are fixin to get thiers.
silvrhand
All Pro
Who was it that used to give the hardest count where his head would move and jerk and would rarely get called for it.
The Cush
Rookie
I was actually hoping the Texans would do this and if its true I'm glad to hear it. Although, I bet after looking at the tape, Goodell will follow up with some sort "Wow, we really need to tweak the rules. The False Start and Illegal Motion penalties are really prohibiting Peyton from truly doing his thing. We'll meet with the competition committee after the season and see what we can do to appease Manning and his ability to further bend our established rule book."
They're sending in tape of the gaurd tapping saturday to let him know manning wanted him to hike the ball. Supposedly saturday was hurt and couldn't see manning calling for the snap
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
As long as an OL man is in a two point stance or is able to re-set for a full second, a lot of the movement is subjective. The referee must determine if it is "simulating the snap" or not. I agree with the general frustration with board members on this issue and certainly agree that Peyton gets some preferential treatment... but, at least part of the issue is the reality that those linemen are constantly in two point stances and are lined up over the ball for so long every snap. I'm sure the Texans get away with some of that movement too, but they simply aren't doing it nearly as much. They actually huddle and lineup in two point stances on occasion.
DexmanC
Hall of Fame
When the rule about the umpire came in, Peyton wasted no time testing
that rule to its limits. Dude will use every advantage he can, and stretch
every rule to its utter limits. He will adjust to whatever the ref calls, and
push the envelope again.
infantrycak
Hall of Fame
I think there are only two options (or do both):
1) get together with other teams and start a tape campaign such that after every game the Colts play the league gets a complaint and demand for explanation. (This relates to #2 and different expectations - but a year ago Del Rio was pissing and moaning to the refs that Myers was slightly moving the fingers on his non-plant hand.)
2) coach the DL themselves that Manning gets no special treatment. Fact is the teams are so used to doing it that they don't react the same way. They think maybe they saw a pinkie twitch when playing Oakland and they'll fire off but Manning and his whole crew move and they just chalk it up to being Manning. Fire off at the first twitch and then include getting a penalty on the tape.
The Colts do not predominantly operate out of a two point stance and obviously that doesn't immunize you after having been set anyway as we have seen plenty of two point stance false starts.
For an example - 7:48 in the 1st, 17 seconds on the play clock - everyone except maybe the RT already in a three point (editing didn't show true beginning), Manning in shotgun. At 14 seconds on the play clock Manning does his leg thing and sets. Then he walks forward and at 11 seconds Dallas Clark (who was in a three point) and the LT both stand up fully. The guards and centers lower their legs to the ground and Addai gets out of being set and walks forward. Subjectivity doesn't get you 6 seconds - Manning does.
Or another one - 3:54 in the 1st, 16 seconds on the play clock - everyone except Clark in 3 points and everyone set, Manning in shotgun. By 14 Clark is down as well. 11 seconds Manning pulls out and approaches the line. At 9 seconds the LT stands fully up and Manning grabs Clark out of his stance and has him move to the right side of the formation (interior lineman remain three point but go to ground).
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playa465
Veteran
The rules are always up to interpretation by the officials no matter what we think...Helmuthead's movements to, from and laterally is legal as long as he isnt pretending to have the ball hiked to draw the opposing defense offsides. QBs have been doing this for years..
here are some of the rules from:
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers
Digest of Rules Main
Position of Players at Snap
1. Offensive team must have at least seven players on line.
2. Offensive players, not on line, must be at least one yard back at snap.
(Exception: player who takes snap.)
3. No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.
4. No player of either team may enter neutral zone before snap.
5. No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. No player of the defensive team within one yard of the line of scrimmage may make an abrupt movement in an attempt to cause the offense to false start.
6. If a player changes his eligibility, the Referee must alert the defensive captain after player has reported to him.
7. All players of offensive team must be stationary at snap, except one back who may be in motion parallel to scrimmage line or backward (not forward).
8. After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.
9. Quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty (five yards) if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.
10. Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.
here are some of the rules from:
http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers
Digest of Rules Main
Position of Players at Snap
1. Offensive team must have at least seven players on line.
2. Offensive players, not on line, must be at least one yard back at snap.
(Exception: player who takes snap.)
3. No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.
4. No player of either team may enter neutral zone before snap.
5. No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. No player of the defensive team within one yard of the line of scrimmage may make an abrupt movement in an attempt to cause the offense to false start.
6. If a player changes his eligibility, the Referee must alert the defensive captain after player has reported to him.
7. All players of offensive team must be stationary at snap, except one back who may be in motion parallel to scrimmage line or backward (not forward).
8. After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.
9. Quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty (five yards) if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.
10. Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.
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ubecool454
Veteran
This irritates me to with Peyton but I'm sure they aren't doing anything wrong or the officials would be all over them. This is what makes Peyton better than the rest of the QBs...his ability to read coverages and change the plays at the line gives them a coach on the field.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Here I've linked a PDF of THE OFFICIAL NFL RULE BOOK.
Look at "Section 3 Putting the Ball in Play," pages 43 and 44 specifically. There is full detail with EXACT wording,and specific examples of what is and what isn't a penalty.
Look at "Section 3 Putting the Ball in Play," pages 43 and 44 specifically. There is full detail with EXACT wording,and specific examples of what is and what isn't a penalty.
They'll tweak the rules to allow the Colts to get that Arena football head start.
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Penalty: For false start: Loss of five yards from previous spot.
SUPPLEMENTAL NOTES
Movement of Interior Linemen
(1) When interior lineman of the offensive team (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance and then moves after taking that stance, the offensive team shall be penalized for a false start. The official must blow his whistle immediately.
(2) The penalty for a false start (Article 4) shall be enforced regardless of whether snap is made. The distance penalty for the false start may be declined.
No Offensive Movement
(3) Any quick, abrupt movement by a single offensive player or by several offensive players in unison, which simulates the start of the snap is a false start.
Note: Any obvious attempt by the quarterback to draw an opponent offside is a false start
penalty.
Simulates a snap to who?
The defense doesn't jump, so obviously they are not doing something that makes them think they snapped it...
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
It should also be pointed out that although eligible receivers, such as the tight end, can put their hand down on the ground in the form of a three-point stance and bring it back up (as long as it is deemed non-abrupt), offensive lineman cannot. Once one of the five ineligible receivers puts his hand on the ground, it cannot come back up, or else it is a false start.
The interior lineman thing is a little confusing to me...
Wiki says that interior linemen are both tackles, the center and the guards, and the info you posted above seems to say the same thing...
While most people would say interior linemen are the guards and the center I do think that the rule book is including the whole offensive line.
If you look at Icak's post a couple of pages back thought he points out two plays where the tackles and the TE fully stand up after being in a three point stances while he notes that the interior linemen(guards and center) stay down but shift in their stance.
By the NFL rule book I think that any O-linemen (not TE) going down in a three point stance and then standing up should be a penalty.
But I personally don't think it's a big deal. It doesn't throw defenses off...Teams are not complaining, and I don't really see any unfair advantage that the Colts are getting. They don't draw an abnormal amount of off-sides penalties so I think that as long as they aren't moving abruptly of simulating the snap of the ball they will be allowed to keep doing what they're doing.
The Texans are, however, sending in tape of the guard slapping that center to let him know Manning wanted the ball. Supposedly Saturday had an injury and couldn't see Manning. The Texans determined that slapping movement was something that could trigger an offside penalty..Did not hear them mention anything about setting and re-setting and shifting...
CloakNNNdagger
Hall of Fame
Whoever has the game taped (Barrett/DaleMurphy you may want to post this), look at Manning the the OL from 7:50-7:30 in the 1st Q..........only one example, but pretty dramatic.
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
The "interior" linemen really are all the down lineman: tackles, guards, and center. The non-interior linemen are the ends.
But when we talk about the "interior" of our offensive line, we're talking about the guards and center because that's the inner part of the down linemen.
We're basically using the same words in different contexts to mean different things.