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The #2 Reciever Spot

What do the Texans do?

  • Re-sign Corey Bradford

    Votes: 12 10.2%

  • Address the #2 spot in the draft

    Votes: 63 53.4%

  • Start Derick Armstrong

    Votes: 31 26.3%

  • Look for a quality free agent

    Votes: 12 10.2%
  • Total voters
    118
BornOrange said:
Gaffney will have a better year than all but one or two WR's taken in the first round this year.
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yes he may, but that still doesnt mean that other (rookie) wr dont have a productive year just because they dont have better numbers than gaffney, if a rookie WR can come in and go for 400-500 yrds and a few tds i consider that a productive rookie season. and those 500 yrd makes an impact on a team believe it or not !
 
2004 Texan #3 WR
Jabar Gaffney 41-632 2 TD's

2004 Rookie First Rounders
#3 Larry Fitzgerald 58-780 8
#7 Roy Williams 54-817 8
#9 Reggie Williams 27-268 1
#13 Lee Evans 48-843 9
#15 Michael Clayton 80-1193 7
#29 Michael Jenkins 7-119 0
#31 Rashaun Woods 7-160 1

2003 Rookie First Rounders
#2 Charles Rogers 22-243 3
#3 Andre Johnson 66-976 4
#17 Bryant Johnson 35-438 1

2002 Rookie First Rounders
#13 Donte Stallworth 42-594 8
#19 Ashley Lelie 35-525 2
#20 Javon Walker 23-319 1
 
Some people have different definitions of immediate impact, but off your list I'd say Roy W, Fitzgerald, and even Stallworth with their 8 TDs apiece had immediate impact, along with Clayton and AJ. Throw Boldin in the group and there's 6 rookie WRs that made immediate impact in the last three years.

Then go back a little further and throw in Moss, Keyshawn, Terry Glenn, Joey Galloway, Marvin Harrison, Eddie Kennison and Torry Holt and you can see that over time, there's usually 1 or 2 rookie WRs per season that make an immediate impact.

Too many people carry the "it takes 3 years" mantra just because, and automatically dismiss the possibility of a rookie WR making a difference when even though success doesn't happen immediately with the majority of WRs (what position does?) it happens almost every year with one or more WRs making it not such a crazy idea to entertain IMO.
 
Statistically they make an impact yes.

But if im blowing out the Arizona Cardinals and Boldin has 14 catches for 200 yards and a TD or 2,

He made statistical impact but not game changing impact. Now if Arizona is down by 3 with a minute left and he hauls in a TD Pass to win the ballgame that is an impact and a player that does that consistently is an impact player to me.

Players like Jerry Rice, Brett Favre, Emmitt Smith, Terrell Owens, Donovan McNabb, Ben Rothlisberger, Jeremy Shockey....

Those are impact players to me the ones that if they are playing they have the potential of taking the game over.
 
the biggest impact a new #2 might make, rookie or otherwise, could be forcing opposing defenses to be more honest and quit cheating over on AJ.
IMO, the same could be said for a better TE. One that doesn't tip off the D that the play will be run or pass. The stats are nice to consider, but having more potential options helps open up more space downfield for AJ, keeps 8 or more defenders out of the box(at least not as frequently), and also reduces the comfort level of the opposing defensive coordinator when he feels like blitzing...
And don't forget, we can add a #2 AND keep Gaff on the field at the same time in a 3 wide set. That may limit the stats that each WR gets, but not neccesarily...
in the 80's(maybe early 90s) the Deadskins had 3 WRs with over 1,000 in a single season (Monk, Clark, Sanders). I'm not saying that it's likely, just pointing out the possibilty
 
I noticed most QBs in college that turned WR in the NFL had some pretty productive careers. I don't know all the names but here are 3 I know of right off the bat.

The kid in Pittsburgh, The kid that played at Rice and played for the Falcons, Bennett from Tenn. I think that kid Matt Jones has a real chance like they did.
 
gaffney and armstrong are both slot receivers, they both run very good routes and can pick apart defenses, but they lack the ability to break away from defenders and that extra burst after the catch. bradford had speed but was inconsistent, he would make one great play and disappear from the game, we need a player that can create space between him and his defender .... check this website out http://www.pmvfx.com/video/DEC-sports/T_williamson.wmv agents highlight reel for troy williamson
 
michaelm said:
...in the 80's(maybe early 90s) the Deadskins had 3 WRs with over 1,000 in a single season (Monk, Clark, Sanders). I'm not saying that it's likely, just pointing out the possibilty
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If the Texans had the type of pass blocking the Hogs provided Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, & Mark Rypien, picking up another WR in the 1st round would be a great idea. As it stands, it's a complete waste. Cart = Skill Positions. Horse = Offensive Line. This organization has to start putting the horse in front of the cart if they intend to win.
 
I have to say the best game the WR looked awesome and gave a glimpse of their potential as a core was the Raider game.
 
Lucky said:
If the Texans had the type of pass blocking the Hogs provided Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, & Mark Rypien, picking up another WR in the 1st round would be a great idea. As it stands, it's a complete waste. Cart = Skill Positions. Horse = Offensive Line. This organization has to start putting the horse in front of the cart if they intend to win.
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I am not neccesarily advocating a first round reciever. It's obvious (to me) that we could use an upgrade @ #2. Yes, I believe that Gaff, or Armstong could hold that position, but they are not dynamic enough to have an effect on the defense that benifits the other skill positions.
As far as the cart and horse analogy, I am with you all the way. But it looks like we will go with what we currently have as far as OL starters headed into the season. I think that having a little stability in the line will pay decent dividends this year. Look at Denver's OL... they are consistently called undersized and haven't had a whole lot of studs that I can recall (although I stand to be corrected on this), but are noted for their technical abilities and mobility. I don't go as far as to compare, but use them as an example of what can be achieved with a little unit level cooperation.
I think Wand will improve enough that we won't be having a witch hunt after the 2005 season, and the unit as a whole will improve to at least average and maybe a little better (just a little). If we can find a consistent #2 WR (rookie or otherwise), a TE who is able to perform average in both the running and passing attacks (and help out with blocking), we will be fine. It's all a matter of cohesiveness. All 5 Ol and the TE need to just be consistent and good things will happen.
I don't know why it's not commented on more around here, but for the early part of the 2004 season, the Texans were near the top in offensive prodution for at least a few weeks.
I remember seeing glimpses of what looked like being a pretty good passing attack. I think a few key moves (not spectacular ones) and you will see it again this year, but for an extended time.
I will go on record right now predicting that the Texans will open up the passing game more than anyone expects this year. And also on record to say that the line, status quo, will have a marked improvement as well.
I say, show me one consistant threat in the #2 spot, and a well rounded TE and you will see 3,800+ yds and 23+ tds for Carr. He was #12 in pass yds last year, and that would put him in the top ten (or maybe eight) most likely...
ok, I'm losing steam now... :woot
 
Mark Clayton alongside Dre' Johnson would be like

Burress/Ward, Muhammed/Smith, Peanut Butter/Jelly.

Trade down to like 22, say the Ravens want Troy Williamson really bad at 13 because they know the Panthers will immediately pick him at 14 the Ravens trade up, then we draft Mark Clayton at 22 and pick up a late 3rd(84). PLZ.

That, or draft Courtney Roby with one of our 3rd round pick. Roby looks like Torry Holt pt.2.

EDIT: i also wouldn't be mad at pick troy williamson at 13 either. If u guys watched that highlight tape put by his agent, i really like him as a pro. If anything we have an insight on how good he is by just asking Dunta Robinson how tough was he to defend in practice.
 
michaelm said:
I don't know why it's not commented on more around here, but for the early part of the 2004 season, the Texans were near the top in offensive prodution for at least a few weeks.
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Yes they were. In fact, the rather dramatic drop in production in the passing game from the first half of the season to the second half prompted speculation that David had suffered some sort of shoulder injury, hence his passing was off. This was denied by the FO, but regardless, there was a marked difference. If they can maintain that sort of output and DD run well, not fumble and do it for the season, this team will be a seriouse offensive unit. We will need a THREAT at the two spot to take pressure off of AJ. I like the idea of another big burner type, but what is really needed is a playmaker that gets open and catches the ball. Could that be Armstrong or Starling???? Could be, but I suspect that the coaching staff would have used them in the 2 role at least some last year to do a test drive on them if they thought they would work out. I think we draft a WR for the 2 spot, but what is unclear to me, is where in the draft.
 
IMO this was the absolute worst FA year the Texans have had yet. the delima that we have placed ourselfs in going into draft day is terrible. We are in desprite need of a #2 WR and HALF an O-line. I dont think our FA moves improved the team at all. Granted its not any worse but it is not the point of the off season to simply maintane.

Hears the big delima; 1) If we Take a WR at the #13 spot then as usuall DC spends 50% of his time on the feild on his back not having time to throw the ball to our flashy new player at the #2 spot. This could be the reason Bradford was never that productive. no one is going to make an impact with the peice of swiss cheese we call a line.

2)If we draft a O- lineman at #13 DC still only has one proven WR to throw the ball to. All the other team will have to do is Double or even Triple AJ and put the game on the shoulders of DD, which is not all that bad of a plan. Gafeny wont cut it, Armstrong showed good promise and would be like a Ricki Prowl at the #3 spot. But we would still lack that one guy to complement AJ's game.

sorry about the negativity,just calling what I see.
As it stands now I think we go 6-10 next year, but I would love to be proved wrong and make the playoffs.
 
Gilly, the biggest problem I see with that is it assumes zero improvement by Wand/Pitts at positions they played for the 1st time last year and assumes Weigert and Wade (who has historically been very durable) will be hamstrung by niggling injuries most of next season again, and that working together as a unit in the won't pay any benefits either in pass protection or from a their 1st year of experience zone blocking. Seems unrealistic IMO. Will they turn into the KC Chiefs OL?--not friggin likely, but they should improve.
 
To draft a WR or not ... well, it depends on who's there. If Williamson is off the board and we're still picking #13, I have a hard time seeing us grab Clayton there. I can't see us trading up for Williamson either. So the only way we get a receiver in the first is to trade WAY up for Edwards or Mike Williams, trade down, or hope Williamson makes it past San Diego at #12.

To the guy talking about needing immediate O-Line help, do you actually think Barron (or Barnes for that matter) would actually be better than Wand THIS year? I don't see that.
 
Infantrycak, I hope you are right and than I am wrong. I just frustrates me to watch a 3 or 4 man rush man handle our O-line like it did last year. As soon as we get behind and have to pass it just every thing would fall apart. I simply feel that at least one of these areas should have been filled through FA, then the other through the draft then we should be set to make a playoff run.
 
The Texans actually have a more talented O-line than a team like San Diego. The Chargers, though, went into more "max protect mode". I think we need to adjust our pass-protection some.
 
if we had released sharper/foreman earlier could we have made a play for mushin mohhomed(no idea how to spell his name) .I know its in the past but the guy could have helped us
 
canadiantexan said:
if we had released sharper/foreman earlier could we have made a play for mushin mohhomed(no idea how to spell his name) .I know its in the past but the guy could have helped us
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yeah but he is in his 10th season, and this organization dont seem to like to bring in older players, we are a more build through the draft kinda team. plus he woulda wanted a good $dollar$ if we would have gotten him.
 
You make a good point about the age and money just thought i'd throw it out there, actually I like Williamsonin the first or maybe matt jones in the second.

Only fan in canada (that I know of)
 
canadiantexan said:
You make a good point about the age and money just thought i'd throw it out there, actually I like Williamsonin the first or maybe matt jones in the second.

Only fan in canada (that I know of)
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haha we have a few more fans on the board from canada, only because the texans have gotten some players from the canadian league, i think parsons and a few other guys, so they try to follow those guys. and about M.M i wouldnt mind havinf him he's a good reciever, but our front office has never seemd big on signing to many older vets !
 
Charlie Clemons was a CFLer too. What’s Parson’s first name? I don’t recognize that name off the top of my head. There are roughly 40 ex-CFLers currently in the NFL, which is quite a few considering the CFL is a 9 team league with a lot of veteran players who are in their late 20's and early 30's and probably too old to be of interest to the NFL.

It’s good to see Armstrong doing well for the Texans. I knew he would and I’m happy for him, but it was hard to see him go too. I am happy for him though. I think he’s from a pretty humble background and he was pretty raw and seemed a bit like a deer in headlights when he first came to us, but he’s a hard worker and steadily improved his game his whole time with us. If he keeps that up I’m sure he will be a solid starter for you. My guess is that his speed is in the 4.5 range, but he is also a big, fluid, athlete with a good vertical who can go up for the ball with a DB and be the one to come down with it.
 
I don't think we need an early round WR with incredible speed to take pressure off of AJ. As I recall, Jerry Rice's 40 time at the combine was ~4.6 and Steve Largent was definitely a 4.6 (or maybe a bit slower in later years) wide receiver. I think we would kill to have either of them in their prime on our team. Of course, Largent was released by the Cowboys early in his career, if I'm not mistaken. I think we need to give Armstrong and Gaffney a chance to step up this year. Whoever shows the play-making ability gets the job. Let's face it, if Carr gets pressure like he has the 1st 3 yrs, he's only going to look to AJ then DD anyway.
 
Also, Michael Jenkins and Albert Johnson were CFLers. They were signed by the Texans but I don’t think either one of them made your team. Jenkins came back to the CFL (Toronto) but it was discovered that he developed serious arthritis in his ankle and he was cut. He has signed with Montreal this year so we’ll see if he’s got that problem worked out somehow. Johnson hasn’t been back. He was a very good player but he’s small and was somewhat injury prone even in the big field CFL game, so he was never a great NFL prospect for size and durability reasons.

edit: RE: Jenkins. I think his problem was arthritis but I’m not sure of that. It was an ankle injury anyway.
http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/news_story.asp?Id=115376
 
mean mark8 said:
I don't think we need an early round WR with incredible speed to take pressure off of AJ. As I recall, Jerry Rice's 40 time at the combine was ~4.6 and Steve Largent was definitely a 4.6 (or maybe a bit slower in later years) wide receiver. I think we would kill to have either of them in their prime on our team. Of course, Largent was released by the Cowboys early in his career, if I'm not mistaken. I think we need to give Armstrong and Gaffney a chance to step up this year. Whoever shows the play-making ability gets the job. Let's face it, if Carr gets pressure like he has the 1st 3 yrs, he's only going to look to AJ then DD anyway.
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but Jerry and Largent were primary receivers for most of their careers, and had speedsters opposite of them, and say we dont draft a WR high and leave it up to Armstrong and Gaff and whoever is best can have the number 2 spot (i dont agree with it) then we will just have the better out of the two, but maybe not a receiver that should be playing the 2 spot, meaning that just because one does better than the other, doesnt mean either of them have the capability to be a #2 receiver. let em compete sure, but they most likely will compete with eachother for the slot position.... and ya he throws a lot to AJ and DD, they are the only two constants, and AJ has a tough time getting open when he is getting tripled cuz teams dont respect bradford, gaffney, or armstrong. carr cant wait for a receiver to get open, the line isnt the greatest, so by the time he checks down his receivers, if they are not open he cant wait for them to creat anything, cuz the second he does he is adding to his sack total, so he has to dump it off to DD
 
THEFUTURE said:
but Jerry and Largent were primary receivers for most of their careers, and had speedsters opposite of them, and say we dont draft a WR high and leave it up to Armstrong and Gaff and whoever is best can have the number 2 spot (i dont agree with it) then we will just have the better out of the two, but maybe not a receiver that should be playing the 2 spot, meaning that just because one does better than the other, doesnt mean either of them have the capability to be a #2 receiver. let em compete sure, but they most likely will compete with eachother for the slot position.... and ya he throws a lot to AJ and DD, they are the only two constants, and AJ has a tough time getting open when he is getting tripled cuz teams dont respect bradford, gaffney, or armstrong. carr cant wait for a receiver to get open, the line isnt the greatest, so by the time he checks down his receivers, if they are not open he cant wait for them to creat anything, cuz the second he does he is adding to his sack total, so he has to dump it off to DD
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So if Carr doesnt have the time was it a speedster in the draft goin to do that Bradford didnt do last year? We dont have the time to wait for a speedster to get open on a hail mary route. The reason i like gaffney and armstrong is they run good routes they find holes in the zone and catch the ball. We dont need another Homerun threat here.

What we need is a guy that makes 1st downs. We need recievers that run good underneath routes and can find holes in the zone and move the chains. AJ is our Reciever but they can't double him forever if Gaffney or Armstrong keep moving the chains. Those recievers know the playbook Gaffney even more so. I think he will do fine. I just think until we get great protection and a productive tight end, We need a 10 yard out reciever in our #2 slot.

Unless we land Matt Jones, Then we can give the defense tons of different looks with Jones in the lineup he can line up at TE, WR, or a RB in a full house backfield. A tight end will help a lot becuae that is a huge key for the defense. I bet we get better protection when the defense does not know what the play call is. That could be a reason our O line looks so terrible too. They know when Breuner is on the field to just hold the line of scrimmage. When Miller is out there pass rush.

A TE will make this offense work more than a 1st round #2 WR. Utilize what we have here already at WR, and hope that Joppru this year can actually play on the field. or that we draft a good TE in this years draft, which is easier said than done.
 
Mark Clayton in my opinion is still the ideal player to play alongside dre.
1. U want a guy who can stretch the feild, his 4.4 speed can.
2. U want a guy who can run great short routes, he can.
3. U want a guy who can catch through traffic, he can.

Granted Troy Williamson will probably be a Javon Walker, or Chad Johnson because he is very raw,(those two also didn't start off their careers as very productive wr's, but look at them now) and can really improve to be a true number 1. I don't think he will fit well with a number 2 role with the Texans.

Even though i think Troy Williamson is a better pro prospect than Clayton, i think Clayton can provide us with his talents now. He complements Dre, and the duo can be very effective for alot of years to come.

Of course i would only want Mark Clayton in a trade down with the Cowboys, whom i think really wants Troy Williamson.
 
outofhnd said:
So if Carr doesnt have the time was it a speedster in the draft goin to do that Bradford didnt do last year? We dont have the time to wait for a speedster to get open on a hail mary route. The reason i like gaffney and armstrong is they run good routes they find holes in the zone and catch the ball. We dont need another Homerun threat here.

What we need is a guy that makes 1st downs. We need recievers that run good underneath routes and can find holes in the zone and move the chains. AJ is our Reciever but they can't double him forever if Gaffney or Armstrong keep moving the chains. Those recievers know the playbook Gaffney even more so. I think he will do fine. I just think until we get great protection and a productive tight end, We need a 10 yard out reciever in our #2 slot.

Unless we land Matt Jones, Then we can give the defense tons of different looks with Jones in the lineup he can line up at TE, WR, or a RB in a full house backfield. A tight end will help a lot becuae that is a huge key for the defense. I bet we get better protection when the defense does not know what the play call is. That could be a reason our O line looks so terrible too. They know when Breuner is on the field to just hold the line of scrimmage. When Miller is out there pass rush.

A TE will make this offense work more than a 1st round #2 WR. Utilize what we have here already at WR, and hope that Joppru this year can actually play on the field. or that we draft a good TE in this years draft, which is easier said than done.
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Matt Jones is a very good athlete, he hasnt even played one down as a receiver in a real college game, so lets not get to hyped on him, he will take a few seasons before he could become a WR or TE, if he does at all.

And the slot receiver which armstrong and gaffney both play now, serves the purpose of getting under defenses and disecting them.; not the #2 spot. the number 2 needs to be a homerun threat, to stretch the field, which allows our number 1 and 3 receivers better chances underneath if the defense does get stretched, and if not then we have a deep WR that carr can hit deep.

Joppru is our TE, if he will be healthy, and we definatly are not drafting a TE number at 13.
 
infantrycak said:
, but they should improve.
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I don't think there's any way they could do worse. Improvement on a bad performance is pretty easy. They gave up 36 sacks in '03 and 49 in '04. If they can't protect better than they did 2 years ago, something is wrong.
 
"rookie" starting LT and a whole new blocking scheme.. on top of that.. two years ago we had Carr doing 3 step drops 75% of the time because he had broke the single season sack record the year before. last year we didnt have him doing as many 3 step drops.

Im not at all surprised that we had more sacks last year than the year before.. and I expect a good deal of improvement this coming season.
 
Grid said:
"rookie" starting LT and a whole new blocking scheme.. on top of that.. two years ago we had Carr doing 3 step drops 75% of the time because he had broke the single season sack record the year before. last year we didnt have him doing as many 3 step drops.

Im not at all surprised that we had more sacks last year than the year before.. and I expect a good deal of improvement this coming season.
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if theres is no noticable improvment after next season than changes need to be made, but i say we give them 2005 to prove what they are worth !
 
i think the Line will stay as it is for this year, we might draft a tackle and a center in later rounds in the draft, so if we do make changes in the next couple years we might have some sort of talent to step in to take over
 
we do need to get some young guys to start molding them into what we want so we will have quality starters to step in whenever needed !
 
thats definatly one thing you will start seeing through the next few years, the quality of depth will increase drastically, thank god. i hated the first season watching mostly some castoffs from other teams and then the maybe 1/5 of talent we had were to freaking expensive
 
Leave the WR#2 situation as is. All three (Armstrong, Bradford and Jabbar) will be fine if Carr ever gets the time he needs to throw. They should spend all of their draft choices on obvious needs -- OL and pass rushers -- and hope that some of them will do the job. Leave the skill positions as is.
 
THEFUTURE said:
thats definatly one thing you will start seeing through the next few years, the quality of depth will increase drastically, thank god. i hated the first season watching mostly some castoffs from other teams and then the maybe 1/5 of talent we had were too freaking expensive
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A lot of people are upset about how much we have paid free-agents like Greenwood and others, but I really don't see that changing until we become a playoff team. The Texans have to pay more for these people than other teams do. Most of these players are looking for a chance to go to the super bowl, and right now we don't give them that chance, so we have to pay more.
 
oh definatly, and thas a given, just ask the niners who way overpaid for jonas jennings, bad teams have to do it.... but i was more directing it towards during the expansion draft we took on a few players that hit the cap pretty badly, like sharper and glenn, and other talented vets. especially since we got them near the end of most of their contracts, so we were giving up a lot more money. since most teams now backload contracts and such.
 
Bradford starting is in no way a lock right now...Re-signing Bradford was more of an insurance policy in case we don't get a guy in the draft or we don't feel Armstrong/Gaffney is ready for the job...
 
I agree we have all preseason long to have armstrong or Gaffney step up and unseat bradford from the #2 role.

We can sign as many FA we want as long as we are under the cap. Alot of these players are going to be here for camp but be released before the season.
 
Gaff and Armstrong will be in the slot and Bradford will be on the edge again. I see Starling being a darkhorse for the #2 spot as the season goes on. Gaffney and Armstrong will stay in the slot regardless of what happens at Bradford's spot I would guess.
 
I dunno Armstrong showed something last year, And seemed to be the #2 option for Carr after AJ when he was out there. I wouldnt be surprised if we try armstrong just to see if he can consistently make plays like he does as our 4th reciever.
 
I was looking at Armstrong's stats from last season and noticed that Derick was inactive for two games last year (Chicago and Indy)...Was this due to an injury or what?
 
Sloan ran a 4.55 at the combine, so I don't think he'll end up being much of a deep threat here...He seems like he'd be best utilized in the slot...
 
Hmm not an injury just didnt play. Maybe personal reasons i mean it was 2 weeks in a row. That or we were not going to go with a 4 WR set against those 2 teams.
 
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