Texan's Training Camp Report - Michael Smith

[tsip]

Hi, I'll be your group 2 representative for the day. Let me tel you why you are wrong. I've said this at least a hundred times. IM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS. Big letters get your attention? I don't hope he bombs. I've said repeatedly that I hope Im wrong about him because all I want is to win. What i AM saying is that his past 4 seasons have stripped me of any chance of being optimistic about his chances of being an NFL Qb. Im not going to make pie in the sky predictions and skirt around the fact that we have a qb who I (and im certainly not alone) consider to be terrible. I want the Texans to win, not david carr to succeed........which is why i've been campaigning for Sage to start. I think he has the tools, and could make our offense click.

...you're wasting your time/breath trying to talk or reason with that poster, as he has one of the worse cases of tunnel vision I've ever seen--too, he has no respect for any poters opinions that do not agree with his--however, my biggest concern is that the Mods let him put down other posters/say sarcastic things about them/and lies over and over again about what posters have actuallv said...

 

[infantrycak]

Which season was this?

2004--he was sacked 46 times. He had 902 yards of rushing to offset the 56 comp. %, 2313 passing yds, 14 TD's, 12 INT's and 78.1 QB rating.

It's a joke that he made it over QB's like: Favre 4088 yds, 64.1 comp. % 30 TD's, 17 INT's, 92.4 QB rating. Jake Delhomme 3886 yds, 29 TD's, 15 INT's, 87.3 QB rating. Marc Bulger (sacked 41 times) 3964 yds, 66.2 comp. %, 21 TD's, 14 INT's, 93.7 QB rating. etc.

 

[thunderkyss]

2004--he was sacked 46 times. He had 902 yards of rushing to offset the 56 comp. %, 2313 passing yds, 14 TD's, 12 INT's and 78.1 QB rating.

It's a joke that he made it over QB's like: Favre 4088 yds, 64.1 comp. % 30 TD's, 17 INT's, 92.4 QB rating. Jake Delhomme 3886 yds, 29 TD's, 15 INT's, 87.3 QB rating. Marc Bulger (sacked 41 times) 3964 yds, 66.2 comp. %, 21 TD's, 14 INT's, 93.7 QB rating. etc.

wow..... Bulger was sacked 41 times, and still threw for 3964 yds, 66.2% comp, 21 TDs, 14 INTs, and had a 93.7QB rating?? was that with or without Orlando Pace....... 2004, I think that was with.

Those are some pretty good numbers for someone I don't think is special at all..

Greatest show on turf.......

 

[tsip]

No, I am saying that I am tired of people having a grudge against the QB of this team. The endless ragging has become an obsession with you guys, and I would just like to see all our guys get a clen slate (even TJ). But the one guy who has been given extra attention has been the QB.

Thus, my quote of "...the success of the Texans is directly tied to the success of David Carr" means that we can't win games if Carr is failing. And from where I stand, looking at these posts, there's two groups of Carr doubters: (1) Those who hold a grudge but are slowly trying to give him a chance, but yet they still can't say positive things about him because they're angry at him or at last season's debale, or both, and then there is (B) Those who will never root or cheer David Carr--They are done with him, and the only thing that will satisfy them is to see that he is gone from our team.

You fall into group one, IMO. People like tsip, swt, and twinsisters fall into group 2. My biggest bone to pick is with people in group 2 because they are being so pigheaded in their anger that they fail to realize that we're going to have to realllllllly stink it up to get Carr off the team. And so I wonder: Isn't it easier to hope for Carr's success? Isn't the poorer belief system the one that says, "Man, I hope he bombs so we get another QB..."?

To me, that's just flat out sad.

The quote you are using is for Group 2. It's a statement about how they think and how they are approaching this topic.

Hey,there, got a little challenge for you and some very important people are waiting for a response---find 1 posts where I said I hate Carr--real important here that you start providing proof for your accusations because I'm tired of your rants and lies...

 

[TwinSisters]

When you say "all great QB have an above average line blocking for them" the first thing that goes through my head is Doug Williams(think thats the guy) in wash. with the HOGS in front of him. Played in the Super Bowl also.Cant remember if it was one that thay won though.

yeah that's him. The Redskins are good topic too.
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.jsp?release_id=97

That's Joe Bugel's line, the Hogs. And Joe Bugel couldn't make it on his own as a head coach. He was the first coach that came to mind, when I heard that Kubiak was going to be hired by the Texans.

( That doesn't mean much though.. Bugel is Bugel, Kubiak is Kubiak )

The Redskins and Beathard are one of the major factors in why I don't think Carr will ever be what I expect from a quarterback that is the face of the franchise. Him and Charley have a long list of one pump chumps and two marks on the worst first round QBs ever drafted list.

But on the bright side of life... IF Kubiak can do it as well as Joe Gibbs did, then a Super Bowl is not out of the question.

 

[TwinSisters]

wow..... Bulger was sacked 41 times, and still threw for 3964 yds, 66.2% comp, 21 TDs, 14 INTs, and had a 93.7QB rating?? was that with or without Orlando Pace....... 2004, I think that was with.

Those are some pretty good numbers for someone I don't think is special at all..

Greatest show on turf.......

Bulger is not part of the Greatest Show on Turf.
-----
Teams have to game plan for specifically for Vick. Defenses respect his game changing ability... that is enough right there for a Pro Bowl spot.

 

[thunderkyss]

Bulger is not part of the Greatest Show on Turf.
-----
Teams have to game plan for specifically for Vick. Defenses respect his game changing ability... that is enough right there for a Pro Bowl spot.

in 2004, the year those numbers came from, he wasn't a ST Louis Ram??

or is it only the greatest show on turf with Warner, holt, bruce, and Faulk??

 

[infantrycak]

Teams have to game plan for specifically for Vick. Defenses respect his game changing ability... that is enough right there for a Pro Bowl spot.

It may be exciting, but it isn't any more game changing than a QB doing his job well--Vick's 17 combined passing and rushing TD's didn't change the games more than Brett Favre's 30 TD's or Delhomme's 30 TD's.

 

[chuckm]

It may be exciting, but it isn't any more game changing than a QB doing his job well--Vick's 17 combined passing and rushing TD's didn't change the games more than Brett Favre's 30 TD's or Delhomme's 30 TD's.

this is all after the fact, but I honestly though Vick would be an awesome QB when he was at VT ..... he still may be but right now he's an electric runner with an inconsistent arm ....

 

[TwinSisters]

in 2004, the year those numbers came from, he wasn't a ST Louis Ram??

or is it only the greatest show on turf with Warner, holt, bruce, and Faulk??

Everybody has their own opinions. Mine is that the show was over before Bulger showed up. From 1999-2001 was the show... that's when they ruled the NFL.

You cannot claim superlatives if you are second. That's all I am saying. At the end of the 2001 season, the curtains closed and the spotlight moved to Brady.

 

[thunderkyss]

Everybody has their own opinions. Mine is that the show was over before Bulger showed up. From 1999-2001 was the show... that's when they ruled the NFL.

You cannot claim superlatives if you are second. That's all I am saying. At the end of the 2001 season, the curtains closed and the spotlight moved to Brady.

I'll buy that.....

I'm just thinking it's a nickname that probably will/should stick with the Rams, as long as they make a habit of fielding speedy recievers.. and big armed QBs.

 

[real]

It may be exciting, but it isn't any more game changing than a QB doing his job well--Vick's 17 combined passing and rushing TD's didn't change the games more than Brett Favre's 30 TD's or Delhomme's 30 TD's.

Well you can't really say that, because if a team has to game plan specifically for one player, that in itself is an impact ; and imo, a bigger impact than a QB that the other team knows when he drops back to pass, if it's not a sack, 97% of the time he is going to throw....

 

[TwinSisters]

It may be exciting, but it isn't any more game changing than a QB doing his job well--Vick's 17 combined passing and rushing TD's didn't change the games more than Brett Favre's 30 TD's or Delhomme's 30 TD's.

Yeah... but either of those two could have gotten a Pro Bowl too. I am pretty sure they did too... at least a reserve spot or something like that.

I am not absolutely certain, but I believe I heard Holmgren say something about how he took the Pro Bowl voting seriously and made sure that at least he did what he could to vote for the best.

let me look it up

The NFL is the only major sports league that selects its all-star squads through a combination of fan, player and coach voting. Fans have several months to cast their ballots during the season, either on-line, through wireless networks or at stadiums during games. Coaches and players sent in their votes last week. A composite ballot for each group is reached, then the three ballots are combined to determine the selections, with the fan vote serving as the tiebreaker.

- Buccaneers.com

so the Pro Bowl is not just fans talking like in Basketball or Baseball, where you have 2,000,000,000 nationals voting just to represent their country like it's the Olympics or something

 

[infantrycak]

Well you can't really say that, because if a team has to game plan specifically for one player, that in itself is an impact ; and imo, a bigger impact than a QB that the other team knows when he drops back to pass, if it's not a sack, 97% of the time he is going to throw....

It may impact the other team's plans, but if it doesn't put points on the board then it isn't impacting the game as much as a QB dropping back and doing his job well by throwing TD's. Greenbay averaged 5.3 points more per game on O than Atlanta in 2004--they also held the ball on O for almost 1.5 more minutes.

 

[infantrycak]

Yeah... but either of those two could have gotten a Pro Bowl too. I am pretty sure they did too... at least a reserve spot or something like that.

Culpepper was the starter--McNabb and Vick were the reserves for the NFC.

 

[real]

It may impact the other team's plans, but if it doesn't put points on the board then it isn't impacting the game as much as a QB dropping back and doing his job well by throwing TD's. Greenbay averaged 5.3 points more per game on O than Atlanta in 2004--they also held the ball on O for almost 1.5 more minutes.

I appreciate all the people that keep up with these stats, because it gives us something to measure...however I have never been a big stats guy because there are so many variables that can affect a persons stats it's crazy...opponents,coaching, teamates, playcalling, philosophy...and on and on and on....Now Im not saying that M.Vick is a better QB than any of those guys...But when you have a QB that is duel threat there is no beating that...Thinking from a defenders standpoint, who are you more worried about...Peyton, or M.Vick....take away all the stats...we are just talking about lining up and playing...I don't know about you, but I would be more worried as a defender about vick, because even though he doesn't have the greatest arm he can still beat you with it...not to mention his running ability...Now of course the colts are more potent as an offense, but as far as game planning for a single player...I think hands down Vick changes what more teams do than Peyton...not the colts offense...Just talking about peyton...IMO, if Vick had better recievers they'd have the most potent offense in the leauge...

 

[TwinSisters]

Culpepper was the starter--McNabb and Vick were the reserves for the NFC.

Ugh? Maybe I missed something? I just hopped in on the Vick line that he is a Pro Bowl caliber QB and picked some up along the way as a starter. He wasn't given the Pro Bowl slot solely because some fans believe he is or is not one.

Vick practically gave a re-birth to the word "spy" in most football circles. If there was no Vick, I would think one could safely assume that less then 10% of the football world would know what it means. With Vick around... the numbers increased for sure.

 

[infantrycak]

Thinking from a defenders standpoint, who are you more worried about...Peyton, or M.Vick....take away all the stats...we are just talking about lining up and playing...I don't know about you, but I would be more worried as a defender about vick, because even though he doesn't have the greatest arm he can still beat you with it...not to mention his running ability...

Well I guess that just displays a basic fundamental difference. I'd bet not a single GM in the league would pick Vick over Manning for their QB and it is because Manning is a much more dangerous QB because of his smarts, vision and accuracy. At the end of the day, the only danger that counts is the number of points and Manning teams put up tons.

I appreciate all the people that keep up with these stats, because it gives us something to measure...however I have never been a big stats guy

We're talking points not some esoteric stat--it is the 2nd most basic stat in the NFL to W/L.

 

[Porky]

The thing about Carr is too much ground time. Can any of you Carr haters tell me which QB had the highest sack total and went to the Pro Bowl? What about having a 70 QB rating with a record number of sacks? All great QB have had an above average line blocking for them. We need to give him a chance with a decent line. To be a good QB, that is the key. I guarantee if he is traded to a good team, he will thrive. Then you WILL be sorry.:brickwall

Ever heard of Archie Manning?

 

[GP]

Hi, I'll be your group 2 representative for the day. Let me tel you why you are wrong. I've said this at least a hundred times. IM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS. Big letters get your attention? I don't hope he bombs. I've said repeatedly that I hope Im wrong about him because all I want is to win. What i AM saying is that his past 4 seasons have stripped me of any chance of being optimistic about his chances of being an NFL Qb. Im not going to make pie in the sky predictions and skirt around the fact that we have a qb who I (and im certainly not alone) consider to be terrible. I want the Texans to win, not david carr to succeed........which is why i've been campaigning for Sage to start. I think he has the tools, and could make our offense click.

Wow. You are NOT HOPING CARR FAILS........but at the end you want us to win and to win without David Carr because you think Sage is the man?

Do you not see the conflict that I just pointed out?

Sage only gets his shot if Carr gets hurt or stinks it up.

Thus, you ARE hoping he fails if you are campaigning for Sage to get the starting job. Man, I am done having THIS conversation with YOU.

Unbelievable.

"I'm not hoping he fails......I want us to win and Carr to NOT succeed.....I am campaigning for Sage...."

 

[Kaiser Toro]

gpshafer and SWT please come to the center of the virtual ring. The decision is unanimous, it is a draw!

Please bookmark this thread and come back to it on September 11th. Until then, ciao! And a harumph to the both of you.

 

[GP]

...you're wasting your time/breath trying to talk or reason with that poster, as he has one of the worse cases of tunnel vision I've ever seen--too, he has no respect for any poters opinions that do not agree with his--however, my biggest concern is that the Mods let him put down other posters/say sarcastic things about them/and lies over and over again about what posters have actuallv said...

Cry me a river.

Just because I don't let you off the hook doesn't mean I'm some big nasty person that the mods need to ban.

Were you here before the message board got its makeover? If you think this is bad, you should have been here years ago...it was anarchy.

The mods are doing their job, and you and I are doing ours: Debating Texans football.

The whole world is against you, eh? Poor thing.

Maybe Carr will flop and THAT will make your day, and then you can gloat over it and say, "See! I told you so..."

And "lying about what others have said?"

How's this for lying:

Swt says "I AM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS" and then at the end he says that he wants the Texans to win, but for Carr to NOT succeed...and he is campaigning for Sage to win the job."

The first statement and the last statements are bold face contradictions. You can't have one without the other.

Next.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

All posters run for cover. We have a member gone Hulk in the Bullpen (no slight at Hulk the member).

Save some for the game gp.

 

[GP]

And another thing....

I'm done. (and the board erupts with thunderous applause...)

We'll check back when the season's started.

 

[Texans_Chick]

Wow. You are NOT HOPING CARR FAILS........but at the end you want us to win and to win without David Carr because you think Sage is the man?

Do you not see the conflict that I just pointed out?

Sage only gets his shot if Carr gets hurt or stinks it up.

Thus, you ARE hoping he fails if you are campaigning for Sage to get the starting job. Man, I am done having THIS conversation with YOU.

Unbelievable.

"I'm not hoping he fails......I want us to win and Carr to NOT succeed.....I am campaigning for Sage...."

Carr is the QB. His option was exercised, the draft is over, Kubiak wants him to succeed and says that he has the potential to be a top QB in the league. Once someone swerves into I'm rooting for Sage to get the start, after saying that he doesn't hope Carr fails, then this is just an attention seeking:

A few days before training camp, the only pots I want stirred are at the Saturday night tailgate. Just my own personal preference. Let the players play.

 

[Kaiser Toro]

Let the players play.

And let the poppers pop and the breakers break.:bananasplit:

 

[TwinSisters]

 

[thunderkyss]

Cry me a river.

Just because I don't let you off the hook doesn't mean I'm some big nasty person that the mods need to ban.

Were you here before the message board got its makeover? If you think this is bad, you should have been here years ago...it was anarchy.

The mods are doing their job, and you and I are doing ours: Debating Texans football.

The whole world is against you, eh? Poor thing.

Maybe Carr will flop and THAT will make your day, and then you can gloat over it and say, "See! I told you so..."

And "lying about what others have said?"

How's this for lying:

Swt says "I AM NOT HOPING CARR FAILS" and then at the end he says that he wants the Texans to win, but for Carr to NOT succeed...and he is campaigning for Sage to win the job."

The first statement and the last statements are bold face contradictions. You can't have one without the other.

Next.

In all fairness to swt...... he has said emphatically that he doesn't want Carr to fail. He has said he wants Carr to succeed. But he doesn't believe Carr can.... he wants Carr to succeed.... he doesn't believe Carr will. wants success, but doesn't think it is possible, not with David Carr.

Sage, he believes there is hope....... I don't know why... other than the way Kubiak went after him.

 

[bayoudreamn]

In all fairness to swt...... he has said emphatically that he doesn't want Carr to fail. He has said he wants Carr to succeed. But he doesn't believe Carr can.... he wants Carr to succeed.... he doesn't believe Carr will. wants success, but doesn't think it is possible, not with David Carr.

Sage, he believes there is hope....... I don't know why... other than the way Kubiak went after him.

"Tone" may have something to do with the perceptions people have....rather than the words he said. I don't know this....just guessing.....shot in the dark variety.

 

[swtbound07]

I am hoping sage beats carr for the starting spot....thats how you resolve that little conflict. If carr ends up being the starter, then i will of course not root for him to fail, but im not handing him the starting job just yet.

 

[real]

Well I guess that just displays a basic fundamental difference. I'd bet not a single GM in the league would pick Vick over Manning for their QB and it is because Manning is a much more dangerous QB because of his smarts, vision and accuracy. At the end of the day, the only danger that counts is the number of points and Manning teams put up tons.

Now this is where I think the disagreement begins...IMO, a game changing player doesn't neccessarily have to be the best player...I agree with you 100% that Manning is the better QB, and would be taken over Vick by most GM's...But it's like comparing Reggie Bush to Edgerrin James...E.J is the better running back and over the course of the season would probably help his team win more...But RB can take it to the house at any moment....Thats all Im saying...on a play by play basis, I would think that you would have to be more worried about Vicks arm+legs vs. Peyton arm+vision....as a defender....I don't know...maybe Im thinking from a players prospective and not from a coach's or GM's...

 

[hadaad]

You would fear Vick's arm and legs more than Manning's arm and vision? Wow.

That's a statement. Granted, that's a statement I never thought I'd hear, but that is a statement.

I think, when you're talking about Michael Vick and the things that he can do to hurt you, you are thinking all about his legs. I guess maybe the possibility exists that Vick would embarrass you more than Manning would, with his jukes and his jives, but I would be more worried about Manning and his abilities than anything Vick brings to the table any Sunday of the year.

I disagree, but I respect the guts it would take to say something like that.

 

[real]

You would fear Vick's arm and legs more than Manning's arm and vision? Wow.

That's a statement. Granted, that's a statement I never thought I'd hear, but that is a statement.

I think, when you're talking about Michael Vick and the things that he can do to hurt you, you are thinking all about his legs. I guess maybe the possibility exists that Vick would embarrass you more than Manning would, with his jukes and his jives, but I would be more worried about Manning and his abilities than anything Vick brings to the table any Sunday of the year.

I disagree, but I respect the guts it would take to say something like that.

I think you are taking it the wrong way...Imagine that they both had the same coaches, offense, ect...everything is the same...On just one given play I, personally, would be more worried about Vick than Manning...Because when Manning drops back to pass, 95% of the time he's going to pass or get sacked, or throw it away...and the other 5%(if that) he'll do something different...Vick has the ability to throw touchdowns, or rip off a 20 yard run...Yes it is my opinion that Vick is the scarier QB....Example: imagine that you were a lone defender...Peyton was the QB and all his targets were standing still and you had to defense MANNING...you can focus on the pass because you wouldn't be worried if he tucked it and ran...Now you have Vick back there and he is in the same situation...who are you more worried about ???

 

[infantrycak]

I think you are taking it the wrong way...Imagine that they both had the same coaches, offense, ect...everything is the same...On just one given play I, personally, would be more worried about Vick than Manning...Because when Manning drops back to pass, 95% of the time he's going to pass or get sacked, or throw it away...and the other 5%(if that) he'll do something different...Vick has the ability to throw touchdowns, or rip off a 20 yard run...Yes it is my opinion that Vick is the scarier QB....Example: imagine that you were a lone defender...Peyton was the QB and all his targets were standing still and you had to defense MANNING...you can focus on the pass because you wouldn't be worried if he tucked it and ran...Now you have Vick back there and he is in the same situation...who are you more worried about ???

I think the proof is in the pudding for who you are more scared of. While I understand the RB can take it at any moment or Vick can it forgets that Manning can take it to the house at any moment and has consistantly done so--in fact he often scores faster than anything Vick has ever thought about doing--7 step drop, 40 yd pass to Marvin Harrison followed by a 20 yd run for a TD--total elapsed time 6 seconds. Game in game out Manning does that--to the tune of 49 TD's two years ago. Vick makes a splashy running play 2-4 times a year--last year 4 runs over 20 yds and only one of those resulted in a TD. Over the last two seasons Vick has put up 38 TD's total--Manning has put up 77 TD's. Week in week out Manning proves his danger by sticking points up. It's the difference between being scared of theoretical potential and proven fact.

 

[thunderkyss]

I think the proof is in the pudding for who you are more scared of. While I understand the RB can take it at any moment or Vick can it forgets that Manning can take it to the house at any moment and has consistantly done so--in fact he often scores faster than anything Vick has ever thought about doing--7 step drop, 40 yd pass to Marvin Harrison followed by a 20 yd run for a TD--total elapsed time 6 seconds. Game in game out Manning does that--to the tune of 49 TD's two years ago. Vick makes a splashy running play 2-4 times a year--last year 4 runs over 20 yds and only one of those resulted in a TD. Over the last two seasons Vick has put up 38 TD's total--Manning has put up 77 TD's. Week in week out Manning proves his danger by sticking points up. It's the difference between being scared of theoretical potential and proven fact.

All I'll say..... if I had to choose one or the other to be on my team........ I'm picking Manning. Real Quick.

 

[infantrycak]

Example: imagine that you were a lone defender...Peyton was the QB and all his targets were standing still and you had to defense MANNING...you can focus on the pass because you wouldn't be worried if he tucked it and ran...Now you have Vick back there and he is in the same situation...who are you more worried about ???

Depends on which lone defender you are. If you are a LB responsible for containment and not coverage you are more scared of Vick. If you are a DB you are more scared of Manning. As a team you are scared of Manning.

 

[real]

Depends on which lone defender you are. If you are a LB responsible for containment and not coverage you are more scared of Vick. If you are a DB you are more scared of Manning. As a team you are scared of Manning.

I agree with everything, and in no way(besides running) is Vick a "better" QB than Manning...I would take Manning 100 out of 100 times over Vick....But I just can't bring myself to the conclusion that you have to be more worried about Manning as an individual...Although Vick hasn't put up the numbers Manning has touchdown wise, you have to respect and honor his duel threat capabilities...Again I go to the RB/EJ analogy...Who are you more worried about when they step on the field ?? of course EJ will help you more over the course of the season, as peyton...but for one play, one snap...who are you more scared of ? I don't know...maybe comparing EJ and RB isn't fair...

 

[hadaad]

See, though, it's not an individual sport.

Yeah, if there were nobody else out there on the field, I'd want Vick instead of Manning, but there are people out there, and on that one play, if it comes down to it, 99 times out of 100, the smart play is going to be a pass, and if there's anyone who can find an open receiver to take it to the house, it's Manning.

More imposing physically? Vick.

More fearsome from a defender's standpoint? 100% Manning. I don't like the guy (don't like Vick either) but he's a freakishly good football player.

 

[real]

See, though, it's not an individual sport.

Yeah, if there were nobody else out there on the field, I'd want Vick instead of Manning, but there are people out there, and on that one play, if it comes down to it, 99 times out of 100, the smart play is going to be a pass, and if there's anyone who can find an open receiver to take it to the house, it's Manning.

More imposing physically? Vick.

More fearsome from a defender's standpoint? 100% Manning. I don't like the guy (don't like Vick either) but he's a freakishly good football player.

I can agree with your analysis, as well as Infantry's....Manning is arguably the best QB in the leauge(not IMO), and I can definitely see where you all are coming from...however it's JMO, that Vick strikes more fear into defenders heart...but like cak said earlier it probably depends on what position you're playing...because obviously a linebacker would be more worried about Vick, and a DB Manning...

 

[thunderkyss]

See, though, it's not an individual sport.

Yeah, if there were nobody else out there on the field, I'd want Vick instead of Manning, but there are people out there, and on that one play, if it comes down to it, 99 times out of 100, the smart play is going to be a pass, and if there's anyone who can find an open receiver to take it to the house, it's Manning.

More imposing physically? Vick.

More fearsome from a defender's standpoint? 100% Manning. I don't like the guy (don't like Vick either) but he's a freakishly good football player.

what if you've never had a reciever like Marvin Harrison?? and the only guys you get, are prima-donnas that can't back up their talk?? in other words, they are never open, until you get the safety to come down.

 

[hadaad]

I guess you eat the ball or you pound it inside with your RB until you make their safeties come up. Then you mix in a little play action. That's what the running game is for, in many offenses.

Of course, it's not like Harrison had done much until he played with Manning. Same with Stokely. (Can't say much for Wayne, since they drafted him) I'm not saying that Harrison is a bum whose production is all because of Manning but it has something to do with it.

 

[The Pencil Neck]

All I'll say..... if I had to choose one or the other to be on my team........ I'm picking Manning. Real Quick.

Same here.

 

[Pigskin Porkers]

I think you are taking it the wrong way...Imagine that they both had the same coaches, offense, ect...everything is the same...On just one given play I, personally, would be more worried about Vick than Manning...Because when Manning drops back to pass, 95% of the time he's going to pass or get sacked, or throw it away...and the other 5%(if that) he'll do something different...Vick has the ability to throw touchdowns, or rip off a 20 yard run...Yes it is my opinion that Vick is the scarier QB....Example: imagine that you were a lone defender...Peyton was the QB and all his targets were standing still and you had to defense MANNING...you can focus on the pass because you wouldn't be worried if he tucked it and ran...Now you have Vick back there and he is in the same situation...who are you more worried about ???

Ummmm I would rather have to defend Vick, he is going to run cause even he knows he will be lucky to hit the receivers feet let alone their hands. Manning could throw it to your grandmother while she was rolling on the field searching for her "Call Alert" pendant.

 

[TK_Gamer]

Ummmm I would rather have to defend Vick, he is going to run cause even he knows he will be lucky to hit the receivers feet let alone their hands. Manning could throw it to your grandmother while she was rolling on the field searching for her "Call Alert" pendant.

OH That's where she lost it! thanks