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Texan's Training Camp Report - Michael Smith

Carr Bomb said:
I'm not saying the Patriots would have won the Superbowl if bledsoe hadn't got hurt.

I'm saying all the right pieces fell into place

I could easily flip this on you and ask you do you think Tom would of won the Superbowl, without his steller defense and the right foot of his kicker.

"He gave them something to beleive in", just isn't true. Belichick gave them something to beleive in, he went in there installed his sytem and fielded a formidable defense, that had many emerging stars that year.
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But they just weren't getting it done with Bledsoe..........
Carr Bomb said:
You do realize that defense held the greatest show on turf to only 3 points heading into the 4th quarter don't you. Tom's offense only had 17 on plenty of offensive possesions and great field position. They same defense that knocked the high powered Colts out of the playoffs year after year, (but what happened last year when their defense was shaky, the Colt blew the Pats out at their own home, where was Brady in that game.)
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Where was Belicheck??
Carr Bomb said:
They won because of their defense and solid QB play, again the had a great team.
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If Drew played, I gaurantee they would not have won..
Carr Bomb said:
Also I think your giving Big Ben to much credit and the Steelers didn't reach a plateau and they didn't peak either. They had alot of young defensive players that came into their own, forming one of the league's best defenses. They had a solid receiving core in Ward and Randle El and the league's best power running game.
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They were starting Tommy Maddox, and signed Charlie Batch just in case.. they were going nowhere, fast......
Carr Bomb said:
Ben and Tom didn't inspire their teamates to play harder, winning inspired them to play harder, having zero weaknesses allowed them to win. All the peices fell into place and with great coaching and players they formed solid teams (offense, defense, and special teams).
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blah blah......... blah, blah,blah.......... blah, blah.. blah, blah,blah, blah........
Carr Bomb said:
Tom and Ben made the plays they needed to make, but their teamates gave them the opportunity to make plays, it goes hand in hand. Winning cures all, winning creates leaders, and it takes solid all around teams, to win.
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only if you're waiting around for something to happen...... you can be like the Patriots, and wait 10 years 'till bledsoe takes you back to the Superbowl......... or you can jumpstart your team, with some fresh meat.
Carr Bomb said:
Look at Leftwich in Jax, those fans consider him a great leader, to me he's one of the most overrated QBs in the game, but has a great chance to win, because of his defense. Since he has a solid team to win with, he's a LEADER of men. Put that immobile, slow release, often injured guy behind our line and he's a bust.
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I like Leftwich..... when a guy has as many faults as you've listed, and he still comes out winning, he's got that extra something....... that it...
 
sorry , I still believe they have 55 guys on the roster for a reason, they have like 15 coaches for a reason, cuz it takes all that to win, its a team sport.
 
"Do you have any quotes or links for this or is this just your opinion?"


...quotes or links? This is 'cool.'
 
thunderkyss said:
I know I've predicted us to win the AFC South this year...... Man I'm really excited about '06...
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Hey thunderkyss,

I, too, have gone out on a limb and predicted we finish 2nd in the division winning two road games. Not as bold a prediction as yours but still.

Off topic, I see you're from PA...I was born at St Mary's...:bananasplit:

Is Monseaux's still in business? That was some gooood food for a place that looked like it was vacant/abandoned.
 
Hardcore Texan said:
He has the character, he has gotten up 208 times before.

Look for Carr to blow it up this season, he gets a chance to prove himself all over again and being held accountable will have much more respect from his teamates. Why would Kubiak ride him so hard, say the things he has said, and stand behind him?

Get ready for a new era in Texan Football! Kubiak is building this team for the long haul.
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Dude I agree so much with your thoughts. Carr has such a big heart. After all the abuse he still has a great attitude.

Now just let him throw for 3500 yards and 25 TD's and that guy is gonna be on top of the world...2007 season would then be crazy!
 
I'm sorry, but Eric Karabell (the guy who has the "Fantasy Take" about halfway down the page) has got to be John Clayton's illegitimate son. :offtopic
 
thunderkyss said:
But they just weren't getting it done with Bledsoe..........

Where was Belicheck??

If Drew played, I gaurantee they would not have won..

They were starting Tommy Maddox, and signed Charlie Batch just in case.. they were going nowhere, fast......

blah blah......... blah, blah,blah.......... blah, blah.. blah, blah,blah, blah........

only if you're waiting around for something to happen...... you can be like the Patriots, and wait 10 years 'till bledsoe takes you back to the Superbowl......... or you can jumpstart your team, with some fresh meat.


I like Leftwich..... when a guy has as many faults as you've listed, and he still comes out winning, he's got that extra something....... that it...
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What do you not understand when I say, "ALL THE PIECES FELL INTO PLACE". You act like Tom and Ben were the whole puzzle, they weren't

My point is the Texans only have half the puzzle.

I'm not sitting around "waiting for something to happen", I'm watching my team solidify all their holes.
 
"Sit back and watch. And then grab a fork when we bring you a big plate of crow to eat in about two months."

...ok, but don't forget, you've got a seat at the same table and-if you're wrong-we've got a 'big' helping for you since you mention crow in most of your posts...too, there is no running and hiding this year like last year or changing your 'handle'.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
Of course, I guess you can always root for him to fail so that he gets thrown off the team...and that's what puzzles me about the anti-Car crowd. They actually want us to lose and suffer so they can be proven right. And yet you say WE are stupid for rooting for his success, for believing in the guy.

Amazing.
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Easily one of the worst posts I have seen on this board.
 
Carr Bomb said:
First off I never talk about "eating crow", in fact if you go through my post history I have never talked about eating crow.

On that note though, even if Carr fails I still have no crow to eat on the things I said in this thread, because all of them are true regardless.

Points I have made

Carr has played on a flawed team from front office on down the last 4 years - fact

Carr hasn't played on a very good team with tons of holes - fact

It takes a solid team to be successful in the NFL - fact

Ben and Tom play on complete teams - fact

How is Carr failing going to change those facts, nope I have no crow waiting for me.

Also, I didn't run and hide last year, I was busy serving my country and I'm not going to change my handle, I've had it since I joined the board. 2 1/2 years ago.
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ck out the name in the header of my post
 
tsip said:
"Wake up, man: He's the QB. If you want to see us succeed, you'll stop the "I'm smarter than you are" act and get on board with the very real fact that the Texans' success is directly tied to the success of David Carr. The two are inseparable"

This statement is so true...now, if you can just guarantee that 'success', we'll be all set!! Heck, we can for go the season and just 'wallow' in the 'inevitable.' I'm still trying to picture Johnny Unitas letting himself get 'coddled' for 4 years...
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How does someone not let themselves be coddled? If your coaching staff is treating you with kid gloves and you go to them and say,"Hey. Treat me like the other players." That coaching staff is just going to turn and look at each other and say,"Awwww, how cute." If you're being coddled, there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to spend time with the other players and fit in but if that coaching staff treats you different, you can only try to minimize the damage. It doesn't matter if you're Johnny U or Jim McMahon or Peyton Manning, if you're being coddled by the staff, there's nothing you can do to change it.

And turn that around. What if you were being coddled at your work? You've got to enjoy it at least a little bit. And you're going to turn down the money or are you going to take it? In my last job, I got into a situation where I was horribly underutilized. They were paying me very good money to just sit around in case they needed me (when I was first hired, I came in and saved all their asses). I can't blame Carr for taking that money because I don't think there's anyone alive with half a brain who wouldn't have in that situation. I expect Carr to really blossom with the new responsibility and training.

But... as I'e said before... I don't think Carr needs to improve his play very much to be a very successful QB. He just needs a team around him.
 
thunderkyss said:
So are you saying the Patriots would have won that SuperBowl if Bledsoe hadn't got hurt??
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I don't think it was about Brady's Leadership as much as it was about the team not thinking it had a Pro Bowler to rely on anymore. At the time, I thought that Bledsoe going down brought that team together, not the fact that Brady walked in. With Bledsoe as the QB, I felt like that team thought,"Hey, we've got a Pro Bowl QB who's been to the SB. We can win games just because he's back there with that big arm." Then when Bledsoe goes down, they have to circle the wagons, simplify the offense, rely more on the running game, and really step on defense. And they did. And they were lucky as hell.

It was almost the same thing with Pittsburgh. Look at how differently they called plays with Maddox in there vs. Roethlisburger. When Maddox went down, they simplified their offense and became more of a running team again. And their defense stepped up. Way up. In this case, I really think it's more of a case of the coaching staff calling games better without Maddox in there. They were more limited in the plays they felt comfy with and that simpler offense was a better offense.

But that's just me...
 
The Pencil Neck said:
How does someone not let themselves be coddled? If your coaching staff is treating you with kid gloves and you go to them and say,"Hey. Treat me like the other players." That coaching staff is just going to turn and look at each other and say,"Awwww, how cute." If you're being coddled, there's nothing you can do about it. You can try to spend time with the other players and fit in but if that coaching staff treats you different, you can only try to minimize the damage. It doesn't matter if you're Johnny U or Jim McMahon or Peyton Manning, if you're being coddled by the staff, there's nothing you can do to change it.

And turn that around. What if you were being coddled at your work? You've got to enjoy it at least a little bit. And you're going to turn down the money or are you going to take it? In my last job, I got into a situation where I was horribly underutilized. They were paying me very good money to just sit around in case they needed me (when I was first hired, I came in and saved all their asses). I can't blame Carr for taking that money because I don't think there's anyone alive with half a brain who wouldn't have in that situation. I expect Carr to really blossom with the new responsibility and training.

But... as I'e said before... I don't think Carr needs to improve his play very much to be a very successful QB. He just needs a team around him.
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With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...
 
"How does someone not let themselves be coddled?"

Are you serious? How long are you going to be in business if you 'coddle' your employees? As an employee, are you going to take pride in being the one who doesn't have to do their job because you are 'coddled?' You missed the point about Unitas...
 
thunderkyss said:
So what does last years failure say about our QB??
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I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.
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And when NOT in doubt......point out that Carr is a terrible quarterback. Lovely that you support him when the chips are down, but Im going to call a spade a spade and a lousy qb a lousy qb. Yeah, I wanted Vince...so what? Im not loyal to david carr...im loyal to the texans, and i believe carr is BAD for the texans. What choice do i have BUT to be anti-carr??
 
The Pencil Neck said:
I don't think it was about Brady's Leadership as much as it was about the team not thinking it had a Pro Bowler to rely on anymore. At the time, I thought that Bledsoe going down brought that team together, not the fact that Brady walked in. With Bledsoe as the QB, I felt like that team thought,"Hey, we've got a Pro Bowl QB who's been to the SB. We can win games just because he's back there with that big arm." Then when Bledsoe goes down, they have to circle the wagons, simplify the offense, rely more on the running game, and really step on defense. And they did. And they were lucky as hell.

It was almost the same thing with Pittsburgh. Look at how differently they called plays with Maddox in there vs. Roethlisburger. When Maddox went down, they simplified their offense and became more of a running team again. And their defense stepped up. Way up. In this case, I really think it's more of a case of the coaching staff calling games better without Maddox in there. They were more limited in the plays they felt comfy with and that simpler offense was a better offense.

But that's just me...
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I can see how you can think what you think...... that's reasonable enough...

I just see it differently.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
I had typed an exhaustive reply to you, to Kaiser Toro, and to others...

And then I realized this: I have been in Carr's corner for a long time now.

Most of us with a clear memory will always remember who cheered Carr when the chips were down, and we'll remember who jeered Carr when the chips were down. That'll never change. It's easier to remember those who jeered him because it's a far shorter list than the list of those who cheered him. And let's make no mistake about it, you guys would have had no problem with us drafting Vince Young. None whatsoever. It doesn't make a bad Texans fan or anything, but it says volumes about the "loyalty" factor. Volumes.

When in doubt, always root FOR a guy...not against him.
Click to expand...

You've got serious problems respecting other posters opinions and have 'zero' clue about the concept of (1) people think Carr is the answer or (2) people do not think Carr is the answer. This concept has nothing to do with liking Carr or thinking whether or not he is/is not a good person. However-and this is where you have 'no clue'-posters in group 2 do not wish failure on Carr and would love for him to do well. These posters would love for the team to win, preferablly sooner than later. It must be tough for you to exist in a world where not everyone sees things your way..All your little 'comments' about 'I know who you are and where you live and I'm going to remind you for the rest of your life you were wrong about Carr...' are childish. But, you know what is really the sad point? If you're right, great--we all win. If you're wrong, what then? Life will go on for most posters w/o calling anyone out or making a 'see, I told you so' list--but what about you? Will you be OK?
 
I don't have ESPN Insider but I like this quote ...

If for some reason you still question the logic of the Texans selecting Mario Williams first overall over Reggie Bush or Vince Young all you need to do is pay a visit to Reliant Stadium and watch Williams practice, watch him move. In fact, all you need to do, really, is look at Williams. He is the definition of a specimen.
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Anyone who has the Insider, please give us some highlights of this article.
 
tsip said:
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...
Click to expand...

I came in late on this ... ineffective Mgrs? if this is about Carr, well the Ineffective Mgr's did get the boot.. Capers and company.

I know that perceptions can be wrong, With the Capers it seemed to me if one person voiced a concern and it aired out in the media ...that kinda got that person sent to the bench or inactivated.
 
tsip said:
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--
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Well, let's go with that..... I also believe TimCouch, Kelly Houlcomb, and a lot of QBs fall by the way side, like you said, unjustly.. I felt those teams handled those QBs poorly....... instead of expecting them to perform better, maybe they should have been trying to find the things those QBs need to be successful.. which I think is basically what we've done with Carr.

IMHO, whether a guy is drafted #1 overall, or comes in undrafted, he's got more talent than most of us...... and if he is playing in the NFL, then he has the talent to play in the NFL..... if he wants to be successfull, then he's going to need those intangibles...... heart most of all, for longevity.

Leadership is one of those intangibles.... but just like a strong arm, or a high release, it is possible for a QB to be successful without strong leadership skills...... I point to Dante Cullpepper...... he may be my favorite QB right now, but severely lacking in his Leadership abilities..... I feel David is lacking in this area as well....... exactly how much, I'm not sure...

Poise..... you know, keeping your cool when everything is falling around you... Does David have enough to be successfull in this league?? Hard to tell.... because we were that bad..... even worse..... but it's clear he didn't have enough to keep it together on this team..... good or bad??

Composure....... looking like a winner, walking out on the field, down by two scores, with only 6 minutes left on the clock....... not so cool, that you look lax, but cool enough to keep your team from panicking & becoming desperate.
Best I've ever seen........ was Randall Cunningham.... he was in a situation very similar to that, he was playing for the Cowboys, against the Vikings I believe.... John Madden, and the other commentators were like, "I don't see a sense of urgency... maybe Randall doesn't see the clock" and things like that. Randall walks out there all calm and everything, two/three plays latter, he throws an amazing touchdown pass...... Cowboys get the onside, and again. he just walks out there bam, bam,,,,,,,,,BAM..... another touchdown, and the Cowboys win....

Vision......... I swear to you it looks like David's vision must have shrunk since '02.... maybe that's a result of the sacks....... most likely... but he didn't see the field at all in '05.

Presence....... in '06, there were so many times it appeared David wasn't aware of where he was, and where the pressure was coming from..... again, maybe he's a little bit shell shocked...... & I can understand that....

And again, I'm not arguing from the point that we need to get rid of David... or that we'll never be successfull with Carr..... but the things I see lacking in Carr, are the things you can't teach.... things we have no idea if he's improved or not, and won't be able tell, till game time.....

I'm being optomistic about the future........ but I haven't forgot the past.
 
tsip said:
With regard to all the QBs that have played in the NFL, Carr is in 'select' company when it comes to being 'coddled.'...just over the past few years, we've seen a lot of high drafted QBs fall by the way side, victims of teams that equated 'big money' with 'big success' and sooner than later. In fact, regardless of any circumstances, I can't think of a single QB that has been handled the way Carr has--

In the real world, ineffective mgrs who do not get desired results don't last long--too, being a mgr/leader is not a 'passive' resposiblity. The saying goes that 'you can lead or you can follow or you can get the heck out of the way.' When most people are put in a leadership role, they want to make things happen-they want to get the job done-they have no desire to be a 'patsy,' a person that just wants a paycheck. Personally, I think it's a 'slap in the face' to say Carr is here for a 'free ride' because that has been the way others have meant for it to be...but, wait, he's going to turn it all around-accept his leadership role-get desired results on the field, and lead us to a Super Bowl.**

...**as long as everything is the way it should be...
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The QB is a player. The Coach is the manager. And just like you've said, we had a manager (Coach) that coddled employees and MADE them ineffective. That Coach was ineffective and just like you said, didn't last too long.

In any sort of environment, you can WANT and TRY to make a difference all day long but in the wrong environment, there are times when you can't. If you're put in the wrong place, you will not be successful. Period. I don't care who you are or how great you are at what you do. If you give a great coach the wrong players, he's going to fail. If you put a great player on a bad team or in a bad system, he's going to fail. You can take a mediocre player and put him in a system that's right for him, and he'll make it to the Pro Bowl and win Superbowls. You can have a great player and not use him right, and he's not going to look great.

So.. What was Carr supposed to do? Was Carr supposed to ask to be traded and confirm that he's a prima donna? Should he have ignored the plays that were called and called other plays in the huddle and gotten himself benched? Or should he have been a "good employee" and done what he was told? Should he have trusted his coaches and done what they said? What would you have done in his situation? To me, it seems like a no-win situation.

I'm fine with people saying that Carr may or may not be a great QB. But sometimes it seems like people are going to take anything he's done or said and use that as an example of what a bad player he is.
 
swtbound07 said:
And when NOT in doubt......point out that Carr is a terrible quarterback. Lovely that you support him when the chips are down, but Im going to call a spade a spade and a lousy qb a lousy qb. Yeah, I wanted Vince...so what? Im not loyal to david carr...im loyal to the texans, and i believe carr is BAD for the texans. What choice do i have BUT to be anti-carr??
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I'm with SWT here, calling a spade a spade...... but I'm rooting for CArr, and as swt will be rooting for the Texans, he'll be rooting for him as well.

While I don't believe Carr is a terrible QB, I do beleive he has played terribly last year. There were things I never expected to see from a 4 year vet....... a #1 overall, and things I definitely never wanted to see from a Texans QB...... & I'm just pointing them out.

and I hope like hell, David will be everybit the QB you, Kubiak, McNair, and all the other CLs think he can be..... because I told you so just won't do it, if Vince is half the QB I think he will be.

all I ask, when I say Carr assumed the fetal position before he was touched, don't call me a liar, and don't call it conjecture........ own it, because it happened more than once....... tell me why he did it.. tell me why he won't do it again..... but don't ignore it.
 
I think it's well established now who thinks Carr should stay and who thinks he should go. It's also pretty well established why people believe in him and why people think he sucks. The constant bombardment of regurgitating the same spewage by both sides is pretty unbelievable. I get that we talk about our players here, but after you post how crappy or good a player is for the 500th time, doesn't it get old?
 
tsip said:
"How does someone not let themselves be coddled?"

Are you serious? How long are you going to be in business if you 'coddle' your employees? As an employee, are you going to take pride in being the one who doesn't have to do their job because you are 'coddled?' You missed the point about Unitas...
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I'm serious. If you're being coddled what do you do to be "uncoddled"? If someone is going to pay you a lot of money to sit around on your butt, are you going to turn it down? You can go to your bosses and you can tell them that you can do much more than they're asking of you but if they don't give you something that challenges you, what do you do? I've seen lots of situations in real life like this. Granted, I spent 13 years with Los Angeles County which might not exactly be "real life" but I've seen the same things happen in start-ups and small companies, too.

And what was the point about Unitas? You said that Unitas wouldn't sit around and be coddled like this. So you must know what he would have done in this situation. What would he have done? What would you want to have seen Carr do so that you could respect him?
 
Wolf said:
I came in late on this ... ineffective Mgrs? if this is about Carr, well the Ineffective Mgr's did get the boot.. Capers and company.

I know that perceptions can be wrong, With the Capers it seemed to me if one person voiced a concern and it aired out in the media ...that kinda got that person sent to the bench or inactivated.
Click to expand...

So what........ it's tough being right...... it's even tougher to face the consequences of being right.
 
as I stated on the foxsports southwest report thread(from what i could read on the caption on the TV)

They were saying how Babin mentioned something about last season he was just to hold up the point of attack and then react.. This season they are attacking (which was what he was doing in college) and Babin is moving back to the position that he had in college.
 
Wolf said:
as I stated on the foxsports southwest report thread(from what i could read on the caption on the TV)

They were saying how Babin mentioned something about last season he was just to hold up the point of attack and then react.. This season they are attacking (which was what he was doing in college) and Babin is moving back to the position that he had in college.
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If Babin would have just done his job, the Wong could've been our Ray Lewis..... that's the way it works..... they all have their responsibilities, they all have to execute if they expect to be successfull.

and there are plenty of times when Babin was supposed to get in there, and get the QB...... the fact that sometimes he goes for broke, and sometimes he occupies a gap, he should be attacking two players, is part of the beauty that makes the 3-4 what it is.
 
thunderkyss said:
If Babin would have just done his job, the Wong could've been our Ray Lewis..... that's the way it works..... they all have their responsibilities, they all have to execute if they expect to be successfull.

and there are plenty of times when Babin was supposed to get in there, and get the QB...... the fact that sometimes he goes for broke, and sometimes he occupies a gap, he should be attacking two players, is part of the beauty that makes the 3-4 what it is.
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:hmmm: looks like we should have kept Capers and crew because it seems they weren't the problem and we should have traded/cut the players that weren't doing their job :sarcasm:
 
thunderkyss said:
I'm with SWT here, calling a spade a spade...... but I'm rooting for CArr, and as swt will be rooting for the Texans, he'll be rooting for him as well.

While I don't believe Carr is a terrible QB, I do beleive he has played terribly last year. There were things I never expected to see from a 4 year vet....... a #1 overall, and things I definitely never wanted to see from a Texans QB...... & I'm just pointing them out.

and I hope like hell, David will be everybit the QB you, Kubiak, McNair, and all the other CLs think he can be..... because I told you so just won't do it, if Vince is half the QB I think he will be.

all I ask, when I say Carr assumed the fetal position before he was touched, don't call me a liar, and don't call it conjecture........ own it, because it happened more than once....... tell me why he did it.. tell me why he won't do it again..... but don't ignore it.
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Now, see, I agree with this. Carr had a bad year last year. A lot of the time, he looked like he'd just totally given up. He got "Chrissy Everett" syndrome where he'd been hit so much that he was expecting to be hit. He knew he wasn't going to be protected... and he was usually right.

I don't know if he can come back from that. I've said that several times. This is my biggest fear for him. He's going to have to be mentally as tough as hell to be able to drop back and look at his receivers instead of watching the rush.

I have hope for him for several reasons but from the performance side, he never did what most QB's who are totally mentally broken start doing: he didn't start pitching picks left and right. Most guys when they get to the point that their totally un-fixable start throwing a ton of interceptions and as bad as he was, he still threw more TD's than picks.

I think he's a talented QB that was put into the wrong place at the wrong time and got bad coaching. I think his development has been severely impaired and I don't know if he'll be able to unlearn the bad stuff and get back on the right track.

I will defend him against accusations that I think are unreasonable. He may or may not be our QB for the future. We might need to ditch him and start fresh at some point but I'd like to see him in an offense where he can actually do something besides stare at the only receiver out on a pattern and then "assume the position".
 
Wolf said:
I lost you.
Click to expand...


if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......
 
Wolf said:
:hmmm: looks like we should have kept Capers and crew because it seems they weren't the problem and we should have traded/cut the players that weren't doing their job :sarcasm:
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That's normally the way it works.... had David not been sacked more than 50 times a year for three of the last four years, Capers may very well still be here, even after 2-14......
 
thunderkyss said:
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......
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if I am not mistaken issue were addressed at the end of 2004 season.. I have heard reports of Carr talking to OC , we heard McNair talking how they had to protect David Carr..well 2005 rolls around and they didn't and they are gone
 
thunderkyss said:
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......
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That, I don't agree with. You gotta play within the system you're in. You've got to do what your coaches tell you to do. That's their job and that's your job. If you think something's not going right, you talk to your position coach, then maybe your coordinator; you voice your questions during meetings.

But you do NOT break the chain of command to the point of going to the coach or to the owner. You don't air your dirty laundry to the media. To me, that's all inexcusable behavior.
 
thunderkyss said:
That's normally the way it works.... had David not been sacked more than 50 times a year for three of the last four years, Capers may very well still be here, even after 2-14......
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..I posted without seeing this.. you might not be right, but seemed the players didn't buy into the system anymore defensively and offensively


actually, I think D-rob was the only one that voiced a concern publicly and not get benched.. (about week 13 or 14 last season?)
 
The Pencil Neck said:
The QB is a player. The Coach is the manager. And just like you've said, we had a manager (Coach) that coddled employees and MADE them ineffective. That Coach was ineffective and just like you said, didn't last too long.

In any sort of environment, you can WANT and TRY to make a difference all day long but in the wrong environment, there are times when you can't. If you're put in the wrong place, you will not be successful. Period. I don't care who you are or how great you are at what you do. If you give a great coach the wrong players, he's going to fail. If you put a great player on a bad team or in a bad system, he's going to fail. You can take a mediocre player and put him in a system that's right for him, and he'll make it to the Pro Bowl and win Superbowls. You can have a great player and not use him right, and he's not going to look great.

So.. What was Carr supposed to do? Was Carr supposed to ask to be traded and confirm that he's a prima donna? Should he have ignored the plays that were called and called other plays in the huddle and gotten himself benched? Or should he have been a "good employee" and done what he was told? Should he have trusted his coaches and done what they said? What would you have done in his situation? To me, it seems like a no-win situation.

I'm fine with people saying that Carr may or may not be a great QB. But sometimes it seems like people are going to take anything he's done or said and use that as an example of what a bad player he is.
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First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr? What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.' IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--for,example, keeping Carr 'upright' does not mean he will have no pressure because he will just about every time he takes a snap from center--question is will Carr avoid that pressure while looking down field/read the defense/go thru progression and determine the open receiver and get the ball to where it needs to be in a timely manner? Actually, protecting Carr may become the easiest part of the 'equation.' Finally, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how this new offense fits anything Carr has done before--pro or college. He has always been a pocket passer, not a roll out or moving QB by design (avg less than 2 ypc his SR yr), and has never spread his throws around (2 primary rec his SR yr at Fresno St). IMO, this offense is not based upon Carr strengths and may be difficult for him to grasp/execute...here's hoping I'm wrong...
 
I can agree with some of that.. all I can go on is Carr has mentioned in articles that this season it isn't a one read then dump the ball off.. (which Carr implied that was the offense that Capers ran)

as far as going through progressions ..what progressions? TE was staying in to help.. AJ was constantly doubled ... Bradford was about the only one to look at then it was DD..

but with the Cover 2 Bradford going long was not going to happen..

Yes, Kubiak has to get into Carr's head and get him to trust his teammates and his teammates to trust him. Carr has to trust his OL that they will give him atleast an average of a second or two more to make reads..

we will find out if the damage of not having an OL for 4 years took its toll on Carr..he has to learn to look downfield instead of looking at the rush. (that comes with trust).

go to the video threads and watch the 1st half of the cowboys game (only video that I have found).. I am not saying Carr was perfect in that game. I am saying that 1st half ..he threw short, threw long (a bullet in 2nd quarter part 5 on the videos).. he threw to the WR's/TE's..

I am not praising Carr on that one game.. but it gives me reason that if Kubiak can get his head straight..he can be a solid qb

and if Kubiak can't get him straight.. hello Brady Quinn next years draft.
 
tsip said:
First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr?
Click to expand...

If Capers and the coaching staff were coddling Carr, what could Carr say to them to make them stop? If you don't respect someone (and if you're coddling someone, that's a distinct possibility), are you going to change what you're doing because they say something? If your 15 year old comes up to you and requests that you stop treating him like a boy, what's your reaction? I don't know what happened from year 3 to year 4 but Carr looked fine in year 3. It looked like they were asking him to make throws. Then in year 4, it looked like a totally different offense. It didn't look like Carr was being asked to do as much and it didn't look like he had as many tools to work with. I don't think Carr lost brain cells from year 3 to year 4... although I could be wrong about that.

tsip said:
What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.'
Click to expand...

This is something that none of us can know so assuming it's true seems a bit wrong. From the quotes I've seen recently, last year's offense was all one read and dump. It seemed to me that he was capable of doing much more than that 2 years ago.

tsip said:
IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--
Click to expand...

What have you read that makes you think that Kubiak is starting to regret his decision for going with Carr? I haven't seen anything that's led me to believe that. There was the one quote about being pleasantly surprised with how much Carr retained coming into TC... but I read that more as a positive than a negative. Lots of QB's take time learning a new system.
 
thunderkyss said:
if your coach ain't putting you in a position to win, say something..... Air it to your coordinator, talk to your coach(like Vince did), talk to Bob..... last resort, call your own audibles..... if you get benched, you get benched.

If you are as talented as you think you are, you'll do all the wrong things, and still walk away with a $10million signing bonus, and a new 4 year contract with a team that aspires to win be in the Superbowl in '06(Terrell Owens).......
Click to expand...

Flawed logic, Thunderkyss.

Brown gave Young the "OK" to do what he wanted. Capers didn't give that to Carr. And Young WOULD HAVE been benched if Brown said "No" and Young did his own thing. No self-respecting coach lets a player run the ship. Even the best are subject to the leadership of their coach.

This is another bone that I have to pick with the Carr bashers, and it revolves around your idea that a player can just blatantly rebel against his coach, his authority figure, and get away with it if it works.

To me, Kubiak and the other head coaching candidates would not endorse Carr as strongly as they did if Carr had done what you are prescribing. Your idea is so flawed, it's not even funny.

"Undercut your authority to get it done..." is what you are saying.

Man, that's so 100% blatantly disrespectful to the very core of what the word "TEAM" means. What coach wants to inherit a QB or other player on the team who will do his own thing if the going gets tough?

This is one more notch, as far as I am concerned, on the pistol grip of why the Carr bashing is unfounded. You can't do your own thing in organized sports. Yeah, you can improvise in the heat of battle, but there ain't no freelancing it beforehand...and get away with it for very long.

Carr had the character to just keep getting his rear steamrolled, trying as best he could to support his coach's style while also staying alive, and Carr's suddenly a guy who won't "stand up and say something about it."

Next point for me to take on? I've been doing it for about 6 months now, so I'm getting pretty good at it. Or is this just another "bad post" as some are trying to say?
 
i agree with that..

when I think of undermining and doing your own thing to a coach.. Jeff George is the first person (next to t.o) that comes to mind..
 
tsip said:
You've got serious problems respecting other posters opinions and have 'zero' clue about the concept of (1) people think Carr is the answer or (2) people do not think Carr is the answer. This concept has nothing to do with liking Carr or thinking whether or not he is/is not a good person. However-and this is where you have 'no clue'-posters in group 2 do not wish failure on Carr and would love for him to do well. These posters would love for the team to win, preferablly sooner than later. It must be tough for you to exist in a world where not everyone sees things your way..All your little 'comments' about 'I know who you are and where you live and I'm going to remind you for the rest of your life you were wrong about Carr...' are childish. But, you know what is really the sad point? If you're right, great--we all win. If you're wrong, what then? Life will go on for most posters w/o calling anyone out or making a 'see, I told you so' list--but what about you? Will you be OK?
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Hey man, I am defending my stance just like you are. Roll with the punches, k?

Let's get down to brass tacks: I would rather see the starting QB succeed, but you hate him. That's not me putting words in your mouth...you admit you don't like the guy and that you think he's bad for the team. That's YOU saying that. Check your posts.

In my world, it's one thing to criticize a player, but it's quite another to go to the lengths that you have gone. It's not a situation of you not being able to have your opinion...it's a situation of me being vigilant to respond to your posts and keep things on the level as I see fit.

I'll say it all day long: You're not a bad fan at all, but I so completely disagree with your standpoint that I am compelled to respond to it.

Go Texans!, and that includes our current starting QB.
 
tsip said:
First, you are assuming there was no communication between Capers/Coaches and Carr, because the 'powers to be' did not want input from Carr? What if the opposite was true? How coachable is Carr? Do you remember in Carr's first year when they had him throwing over a ladder to straighten out his throwing motion? Well, it didn't work. Why? TK had a good point when he mentioned that a lot of what is wrong with Carr is not physical stuff, so what is it? Carr has difficulty doing 'basic' stuff that is required to be a successful NFL QB, things like reading a defense-receiver progression-holding onto the ball-working the pocket/sensing the rush and knowing how to avoid it while still looking down field-making quick decisions, etc. Most of these items are a part of 'either a QB has it or he doesn't.' We can make a lot of changes to help Carr but thoses changes alone are not enough if Carr is unable to some how over come his 'weakneses.' IMO, a lot of posters have placed too much of Carr's problems on other people/schemes/play calling,etc. and,yes, these have all made a contribution to Carr's results on the field. Now, more than ever, I believe Kubiak is starting to sense this line of thinking that Carr's mental game/decision making is a bigger issue than he previously thought--for,example, keeping Carr 'upright' does not mean he will have no pressure because he will just about every time he takes a snap from center--question is will Carr avoid that pressure while looking down field/read the defense/go thru progression and determine the open receiver and get the ball to where it needs to be in a timely manner? Actually, protecting Carr may become the easiest part of the 'equation.' Finally, maybe it's just me, but I don't see how this new offense fits anything Carr has done before--pro or college. He has always been a pocket passer, not a roll out or moving QB by design (avg less than 2 ypc his SR yr), and has never spread his throws around (2 primary rec his SR yr at Fresno St). IMO, this offense is not based upon Carr strengths and may be difficult for him to grasp/execute...here's hoping I'm wrong...
Click to expand...

Well, were you watching the same playcalling I was? Defenders keying on the curl pattern, or on the quick out? Because that's all Capers would call on passing plays...no vertical stretching of the field whatsoever, and it made us into the joke of the league. Capers intentionally called those two pass plays because he felt that the protection was bad? Was it? Yes, but it was bad because the other team crowded our WRs knowing the curl or quick out was coming, and then the LBs would blitz Carr because they were not having to cover any other WR threat since we never sent one down the field...we kept our TE in for max protect, and Carr DIDN'T have any progressions to go through.

Kubiak's passing system is proven. It's going to work. Everyone is saying it, even the media, and it's forced them to hype the "Why didn't draft Bush?" topic because they know things are turning around for us. The not-drafting-Reggie-Bush topic is the ONLY bash that the media or analysts can throw at us because this team is rapidly changing its complexion, and that includes the starting the QB.

Go Texans!, and that includes the current starting QB.
 
gpshafer_1976 said:
Hey man, I am defending my stance just like you are. Roll with the punches, k?

Let's get down to brass tacks: I would rather see the starting QB succeed, but you hate him. That's not me putting words in your mouth...you admit you don't like the guy and that you think he's bad for the team. That's YOU saying that. Check your posts.

In my world, it's one thing to criticize a player, but it's quite another to go to the lengths that you have gone. It's not a situation of you not being able to have your opinion...it's a situation of me being vigilant to respond to your posts and keep things on the level as I see fit.

I'll say it all day long: You're not a bad fan at all, but I so completely disagree with your standpoint that I am compelled to respond to it.

Go Texans!, and that includes our current starting QB.
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I hate Carr?,,,never said that.
...admit I don't like the guy?...never said that.
...and the rest of your post belongs on "Comedy Central.' I hope you are right about Carr this year because I'm concerned about your well-being--your imagination is scary!!!...but, you did make 'that' list...and you're first!!!
 
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